Should There Be Less [Computer Science] Education?
In this episode I unpack Shah’s (2019) publication titled “Should there be less mathematics education?,” which questions at what point it would be beneficial for there to be less mathematics education requirements.
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In the United States there are so-called
core classes that are required for
students to take from kindergarten
through 12th grade let's say so for
example these classes might be reading
write and arithmetic Etc but what would
it look like if the domain were actually
to go from a required class to not being
required at what point would that happen
and when would those Educators argue for
that by asking questions like should
there be less mathematics education that
question right there is actually the
title of a paper we're unpacking and it
is by niral Shah apologies if I
mispronounced your name and I'm going to
talk about how this relates to Computer
Science Education so pose in the
question should there be less Computer
Science Education if you're new to this
podcast my name is Jared O'Leary and I
am the host of the csk8 podcast and have
a variety of experiences working with
all grades kindergarten through doctoral
in music education Computer Science
Education and other contexts here's the
abstract for today's short paper that
we're going to talk about now because
this papers talking about mathematics
I'm going to actually adjust the wording
slightly so instead of saying
mathematics I'm going to say computer
science and computer science education
just to make it more relevant quote
Computer Science Education is typically
seen as intrinsically beneficial to
individuals and to society more broadly
access to stem education is considered
essential in a technology driven modern
economy particularly for people from
racially minoritized groups in this
article I interrogate the underlying
logic of these dominant narratives by
asking should there be less Computer
Science Education I argue that although
computer science and stem education do
have value they come with significant
current and future costs to society
further I question the net benefits they
promise for people from racially
minoritized groups I conclude by
provoking the field to consider what
might be gained by having less Computer
Science Education and how that might
better serve a vision of racial Justice
end quote how to summarize this
publication into a single sentence I
would say that this publication
questions at what point it would be
beneficial for there to be less
mathematics education requirements and
again we're going to talk about this in
relation to Computer Science Education
so the author Begins by saying that as a
field mathematics education they talk
about how we need to focus on quality of
instruction but very rarely do we
actually talk about the quantity or how
much mathematics should be taught so
this was not something that was always
the case this is something that has kind
of been pushed for in the United States
to be a graduation requirement like for
myself I had to have four years of
mathematics instruction in four years of
high school and same thing with English
language arts in order to get into the
university that I wanted to get into
however I was fortunate that one of my
classes could actually be a computer
science class which was a coding class
you did C plus plus it's the first time
they ever offered it in our school and
so my junior year I took two mathematics
courses so that way I could take two
English classes my senior year so I
wouldn't have to take any in college
thanks to dual enrollment and whatnot
but what would somebody like me have
done if I didn't have those requirements
like if I only had to take two years of
math in high school or maybe two years
of English or what about if instead of
having number of years it was hey once
you get to a certain level of
mathematics X then you don't need to
take anymore anything after that is
optional like let's say after algebra or
after geometry you could take whatever
you want if you wanted to or you could
instead turn those into elective courses
so this paper is going to question that
this is a very short paper so this will
be a relatively Short episode but the
first main section of this paper talks
about quote the cost of mathematics
education end quote and so the author
points out that there are some costs
both during K-12 or k16 classes and
afterwards so the author mentions in
this section that with No Child Left
Behind that was enacted in 2001 that
mathematics was actually elevated in
terms of requirements but the author
points out that more time in one subject
area means less time in other subject
areas which is something that I've
mentioned on many previous episodes
although not the sole reason for this
this is one of the reasons why there
have been Cuts in other domains like in
music education or the Arts or physical
education science Etc and with a
so-called learning loss that has gone on
after the remote learning or lack of
schooling during school closures and
whatnot from the pandemic I've
anecdotally heard from many districts
set administrators are more focused on
Reading Writing arithmetic than they've
ever been because scores have dropped
even though the drop's only like one
percent in most areas so now we're gonna
cut all these other non-essential
subjects or decrease the amount of time
that we spend on them so the author
poses the question of asking but where
are we going with all this how will this
like impact what's happening down the
road quote one day mathematics and stem
education will take us beyond the moon
to the other reaches of the Galaxy but I
worry about what we will bring with us
could we end up with the McDonald's on
Mars and racism on Jupiter mathematics
Educators may not want this future but
capitalism does not care what we want
social studies or music education will
not take us to other planets this will
be an ethical Quagmire created by
mathematics and stem education end quote
now the same questioning or logic can
apply to Computer Science Education so
yeah there are many open jobs out there
in the United States for computer
scientists or software developers Etc
even though in episode 176 titled the
end of programming those jobs might not
be around in a while according to the
author that we unpack in that episode
but another other question that we need
to ask is is the only purpose of
schooling to get a job now I've done a
couple of episodes that talk about
Leisure and its role in formal schooling
and beyond for example check out episode
in education with Roger Manti but I've
also done many episodes that talk about
modding and MOB culture which is like
being able to change a video game to
make it do something different so the
example that I love to give is like
people modded the game Skyrim so that
instead of like a dragon they changed it
so that it was Thomas the Tank Engine so
you have this little like train flying
around breathing fire and whatnot and
it's hilarious I love it for so many
different reasons but that style of
modding can be done in Leisure rather
than to get a job in computer science or
software development or whatever even
like the gaming industry but these are
my own Arguments for making a case for
hey instead of just focusing on jobs if
you're going to require this course for
everyone why don't we also focus on
using CS for leisure because not
everyone's going to go into a career in
computer science and that's great and
all but this author might encourage us
to question well do we even need need
computer science to begin with at what
point is it enough which might lead to
the next question or next section of
this paper that might interest you which
is the question of but can't more
mathematics education lead to equity and
Justice and so you might be thinking
well Jared I mean computer science is
like very fundamental to some of the
ethical conundrums that we've run into
with data being collected and misuse of
apps and platforms Etc and all this
broadening participation has led to some
good hasn't it well in last week's
episode titled racial Justice amidst the
dangers of computing creep colon a
dialogue which is episode 177 raises
some questions about that in fact it
actually pointed to this article and
made me go huh I want to read that so
the author is arguing in this particular
article that mathematics has been
suggested as being helpful for equity
and Justice specifically for minoritized
groups it's the same argument that is
applied to Computer Science Education
where it's like hey there's all these
jobs they make a lot of money doing this
thing having the skill set in math or in
computer science and if people
minoritize groups were to actually learn
how to be able to do that then it would
help them economically and as the
authors point out in last week's episode
yes this might be great for individuals
but what about for the groups so while
some minoritized individuals might make
more money the minoritized groups are
still in the same predicament that they
have been in and just addressing
socioeconomic issues does not address
all the other issues like racism and the
Bro culture that is in the stem or
computer science fields that has been
reported by many people who work in the
industry so last week's cite some of the
podcast episodes that kind of unpack
well here are some problems that we
still need to talk about like in episode
inclusion efforts for women of color a
critique of the new labor system which
talks about how this approaches kind of
a new form of sharecropping so while the
author points out that there have been
many approaches in mathematics education
to try and get it so that everybody is
able to take more math like the algebra
for all movement which is very similar
for the Cs for all movement but they
also points out that some white parents
in particular have lobbied for okay well
if other minoritized groups are going to
get the same education when then where
we're going to push to have calculus in
eighth grade which yes that is a
citation for an actual thing so anytime
the playing field is being leveled well
then they're going to try and find some
other way to advance beyond that which
might not be inherently problematic like
if you want your students to have an
above average education I mean yeah that
makes sense but we do need to talk about
how it tends to be certain demographics
that receive that above average
education and not others and we can
raise the question of why is that but
the author goes on on page 31 to say
quote another problem is that while
greater black and brown participation in
the stem Workforce May attenuate racial
wealth gaps it does not account for how
stem has been deployed to dehumanize
people of color and a little bit further
down quote a more racially just world
can't only be about economics it must
also be one where people of color are
recognized as full human beings end
quote which is an important point and is
a very unfortunate thing that has to be
stated but given the history of the
United States and you know like the
Three-Fifths Compromise it is one that
must be made which leads into a later
argument that we'll talk about out soon
but the author goes on to say that all
these movements in mathematics education
might help incrementally to reduce harm
however it is not radical enough
transformation according to the author
which leads to this important quote on
page 31 quote this may lead to more
girls of color and more emergent
multilingual students participating in
mathematics classrooms but it still ends
up giving the students access to
mathematics and the world as they are
the endpoints of their educational
Journeys have not fundamentally changed
end quote which is so important I mean
the same thing applies to Computer
Science Education yeah we might get more
people who are interested in computer
science but they're still going to go
into a field that is historically
hostile to them for example it is well
known that in Industry many women report
being treated poorly many people of
color report being treated poorly so
without those issues being addressed
have we really improved anything I know
that's outside of the scope of K-12
Educators like I when I was in the
classroom had no impact on what a
corporation would end up doing in terms
of their HR policies and practices so as
Educators who might be able help prepare
them by saying yo this is what you need
to expect like how about you speak with
some other people who have similar
demographics similar experiences and
backgrounds as you who are in industry
and kind of talk with them to figure out
what to do to kind of prepare yourself
for what's going on and then maybe work
from within to try and change that
environment but that's easier said than
done and again that's also just kind of
setting you up to learn how to tolerate
abuse which is not okay but this leads
into the final section of this short
paper so the final section is titled
what is gained from less mathematics
education so the author problematized
how well I mean more of this subject
area hasn't really led to better equity
and justice but they next pose the
question in this final section what is
gained from less mathematics education
so maybe instead of doing more of this
it hasn't really fundamentally changed
Equity issues and Justice would it
actually be better if we had less of it
so here's a really interesting question
that they ask on page 31 quote if we had
less mathematics education what could we
do with that newly open space in the
curriculum end quote so the author talks
about how well perhaps we could talk
about Diamond policy Healthcare actually
discuss ethics more especially in the
K-12 and k-16 realm or focus on things
that might have a more direct route to
Justice which here's an interesting
quote that the author mentions quote
seating curricular space for more
lessons and entire lessons squarely
focuses on the issues would be a more
direct route to Justice through
education lobbying for such curricula
would be politically difficult but a
first step would be to open room for
them end quote and snaps to that so
kudos to the author for making a
statement like that I mean very few
people would argue hey this thing that I
really love that I'm very passionate
about that has had a profoundly positive
impact on my life I think other students
should have less of it here's a final
quote from page 31 quote it's simply not
enough for each of us to focus on our
individual silos of research or practice
and be content with incremental change I
argue that the field of mathematics
education should prioritize a goal of
justice for minoritized groups and do so
with urgency even if it means there
should be be less mathematics education
end quote and again let's apply that to
Computer Science Education I mean what
would it look like if instead of having
one more class being crowbarred into the
required classes What If instead it was
one less class how would that impact
things which leads into the lingering
questions and thoughts that I like to
pose at the end of these unpacking
scholarship episodes so one of them is
at what point will someone have enough
CS experience in a K-12 context are we
headed towards mathematics requirements
is that what we want as a field do we
want to make it so that every student
kindergarten through 12th grade is
required to engage in computer science
throughout an entire course every single
year some would argue yes but again as
I've mentioned multiple times if we're
adding in more and more requirements
that's taken away less and less from
other areas if we're going to do all of
them then does that just mean we're
going to dilute everything or are we
going to remove stuff from our program
like physical education is nearly
non-existent in some of the state
requirements same thing for Arts
education Etc are those things not
important why or why not when you have a
gut reaction to a question like that
what do you immediately think of know
what's important because of X or yes
it's important because of why why do you
focus on those areas and should that be
the only purpose of public education
let's say students are required to
participate in computer science through
Elementary School for several years like
maybe they have required standards Etc
do we need graduation requirements for
middle or high schools if it's all about
trying to get kids early to help them
see themselves as a computer scientist
wouldn't they have an understanding at
that point whether they are interested
in that career or not some might like I
personally would have loved to just have
music classes instead of having to take
two math classes my junior year and two
English classes my senior year I did
those for graduation requirements and
interest requirements to get into
universities but I would have much
rather have spent it just like being
able to practice or perform an ensembles
Etc I mean if we focus on mathematics
education I can confidently say that I
have very very very rarely used anything
beyond basic algebra and geometry in my
life and in my career so in all the
programming that I've done I've maybe
engaged in some physics and done some
algebra there I've maybe done a little
bit geometry here and there in life but
honestly most of it has not been
anything beyond what I learned in
elementary school and I'm saying that as
somebody with a PhD who took Quant
classes statistics Etc like there's very
little actual mapping involved on my end
as much as it is just plugging numbers
into like a program and then it pumps
out data for me so if that's the case
like depending on what field you're in
why do we acquire a number of years to
be in a mathematics education rather
than just achieving a certain level so
in particular with math facts because
there are different levels of math where
like you have like maybe geometry and
then it goes in algebra then maybe into
algebra three four maybe into
precalculus calculus calculus three four
Etc why is it that with mathematics it's
not hey once you get to algebra you can
choose to do anything after that instead
it's no you have to have four years even
if you are more advanced than somebody
else like if there's a scale here you're
going to have four years either in the
lower end the middle end or in the upper
end but regardless you're gonna have to
do four years so if you happen to excel
at mathematics cool you have to do four
years and more advanced mathematics but
if you do not excel at mathematics and
you focus on other areas cool you still
have to do four years it's just going to
be in less advanced math classes as
opposed to saying hey get to the certain
level and then after that level you can
do what you want with that personally
I'm very grateful that the high school
that I went to counted computer
programming as a math class that made it
so that I could take one last math class
and instead do a computer science class
if I didn't have that option though I
would have had to have gotten rid of yet
another elective to take this class that
I wanted to do and that to me is
problematic but another question that I
have for anyone is what other subject
areas might we benefit from having more
of so for example culinary arts it saves
money you can be healthier you can
impress a significant another by
whipping up a nice dish what about
physical education physical health is
extremely important I mean if we want to
go from a capitalistic standpoint it's a
lot cheaper to have healthier population
than an unhealthier one and the better
your physical and mental health the more
productive you can be and speaking of
mental health what about mental health
classes what about classes on nutrition
or or even relationships or investment
classes and financial well-being classes
I mean how many people went into
absurd's amounts of debt to become an
educator only to realize oh wow that was
a lot of money that I just spent maybe
you would have done it differently maybe
you'd have gone to a different
institution rather than one that you
went to I don't know what about
communication classes this could be both
macro and micro like for example
communication classes like I'm doing
right now to be able to podcast to large
audience what about just engaging in
better civil online discourse and
engaging in conversations with people
you disagree with wouldn't that be
beneficial as a society or as a world
what about more foreign language
requirements I wish I had a Japanese
class when I was in school here I am
struggling my way through it as an adult
and honestly I would have benefited from
more Spanish classes especially living
in Arizona it has been so helpful to
just be able to know the few words and
sentences that I can piecemeal together
I wish I knew more now to be clear
because you may have listened to some of
the other episodes I'm not arguing we
should require more classes but require
less classes and allow people to choose
the kinds of classes that they are more
interested in so we do this with like
some magnet schools where it's like hey
if you're really interested in I don't
know stem cool you can go to a stem
school where all of your electives are
going to be stem all of your required
classes are going to be stem or even for
the Arts if you happen to have a magnet
school near you that is related to
things that you are for sure interested
in then that can work out great but if
you don't have that option then what
you're stuck taking maybe 13 years of
K-12 classes that you don't enjoy I
myself was debating dropping out of
school the only thing that kept me going
was the music classes I was so bored in
class not interested in anything that we
were studying anything that we're
learning I just wanted to make music and
I wouldn't have had that opportunity to
be able to play in the ensembles that I
wanted to if I left school so I stuck
with it because of that I mentioned this
a lot in the interest driven learning
episodes that I'll link to in the show
notes but if we focus on students
interests and give more options rather
than less it gives the students the
autonomy to explore what they're
interested in and actually Kindle a
passion for learning as opposed to being
forced fed education requirements from
well-being and well-intentioned others
so even though Computer Science
Education or even mathematics education
may have worked really well for you if
you are in the field of Computer Science
Education odds are you enjoy it so if
you had less requirements of other
subject areas where you could spend more
time working on computer science and
computer science education would you
have enjoyed that my guess is yes but
what about if that's flipped what about
for the students who don't enjoy
computer science who have given it a
fair shot and they're like you know what
this is not for me it's neat it's
interesting cool thank you I appreciate
it I want to spend more time doing this
other thing is that wrong how can we
allow both to happen for me the answer
is less requirements in general which is
my answer to the question that is the
title of this episode should there be
less Computer Science Education I would
say yes but there should be less of all
required classes but that's just my
opinion you're more than welcome to come
on this podcast and argue with me in
respectfully there's no need to be rude
and you can even leave in your comments
on YouTube I do read all of them and try
to respond to all of them so feel free
to reach out if you agree disagree Etc
I'll include links in the show notes to
other episodes in case you're listening
to this out of context and you haven't
heard me talk about some of these other
areas but there's 170 some odd episodes
in this podcast so there's a ton of
content in there and I've talked about
this at nauseam so if I left something
out and it doesn't make sense to you my
apologies I can clarify in an upcoming
episode if you have a question but thank
you so much for listening to this you'd
be so kind consider sharing with
somebody else or just leaving a review
it just helps more people find this
content and this is my job well you know
and gaming and drumming all that stuff
so I create a lot on my channel on my
website but hopefully the playlist on my
website should make it easy to organize
it all but I am sincerely appreciative
of everybody who has listened and shared
with others stay tuned next week for
another episode until then I hope you're
all staying safe and are having a
wonderful week
Article
Shah, N. (2019). Should there be less mathematics education? In S. Otten, A. G. Candela, Z. de Araujo, C. Haines, & C. Munter (Eds.), Proceedings of the forty-first annual meeting of the North American Chapter of the International Group for the Psychology of Mathematics Education (pp. 29–32). University of Missouri.
Abstract
“Mathematics education is typically seen as intrinsically beneficial to individuals and to society. More broadly, access to STEM education is considered essential in a technology-driven modern economy, particularly for people from racially minoritized groups. In this article, I interrogate the underlying logic of these dominant narratives by asking: Should there be less mathematics education? I argue that although mathematics and STEM education do have value, they come with significant current and future costs to society. Further, I question the net benefits they promise for people from racially minoritized groups. I conclude by provoking the field to consider what might be gained from having less mathematics education, and how that might better serve a vision of racial justice.”
Author Keywords
Equity and justice, STEM education, curriculum, policy matters
My One Sentence Summary
This publication questions at what point it would be beneficial for there to be less mathematics education requirements.
Some Of My Lingering Questions/Thoughts
At what point will someone have enough CS experience in a K-12 context?
What other subject areas might we benefit from having more of?
Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode
Other podcast episodes that were mentioned or are relevant to this episode
Considering Leisure in Education with Roger Mantie
In this interview with Roger Mantie, we discuss the importance of leisure for self preservation, problematize the single focus of education for workforce readiness, discuss the importance of focusing on happiness and wellbeing, explore discourse in education and around leisure, and much more.
Racial Justice Amidst the Dangers of Computing Creep: A Dialogue
In this episode I unpack Shah and Yadav’s (2023) publication titled “Racial justice amidst the dangers of computer creep: A dialogue,” which presents a dialogue that problematizes issues around racial justice in computing education.
STEM Diversity and Inclusion Efforts for Women of Color: A Critique of the New Labor System
In this episode I unpack Scott and Elliott’s (2020) publication titled “STEM diversity and inclusion efforts for women of color: A critique of the new labor system,” which uses the metaphor of sharecropping to problematize the new labor system around STEM education and careers.
In this episode I unpack Welsh’s (2023) publication titled “The end of programming,” which asks when generative AI will replace the need for knowing how to program.
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