Recommendations for Preventing Burnout in Education (Part 4)
Building off the previous episode on depression, suicide, and CS education, this episode is a supercut of guests responding to how they take care of themselves and stave off burnout. If you have not done so yet, I highly recommend listening to part 1, part 2, and part 3 to hear perspectives from other guests.
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For the past three years I've released a
podcast every single year it is a super
cut of interviews with multiple guests
where I ask them how they try and
prevent burnout in education considering
I've done interviews with more than 70
guests on this podcast I highly
recommend going back and listening to
those episodes as this year's episode is
relatively short I've only interviewed
five people since last year because I've
actively been working on trying to
improve the podcast solo episodes in
this set of excerpts from interviews
with various guests over the last year
not only have I asked them about how
they try and prevent burnout in
education but I've also focused some of
those questions around how you try and
prevent burnout when you're working on
Equity work in relation to education so
many of the guests are going to talk
specifically about how they handle that
and we're going to start with episode
education through SEL and pbl with
matinga regats one of the things that's
cathartic is to learn empathy by
listening to the other side it really
has brought me to my knees I have family
members who are polarity values and
political religious thinking yet
listening to them I've understood that
sometimes especially when you have a
liberal point of view you tend to be a
colonizer yeah one of the things that I
do in my work I go into places in the
United States where you know like I'll
go to Rural America where some of these
things are not traditionally in other
words one of the things that I've the
places that I've really polished my
journey is understanding that myself
when I bring my knowledge or my wisdom
or my thinking I too can be doing the
same thing what I am saying
project-based learning the idea of
allowing autonomy is against the norm
the culture there I am bringing them
things that are no different than a
missionary going to Africa and telling
them that this is the only way that you
can have a happy life imagine going into
the Amish with ideas about you know some
of our ideas that we have and then
somehow judging them because oh my gosh
they don't get it so it's brought me to
my knees in all of these things that I
am constantly thinking about in
researching about what's the goal what's
the end game where's the plot going
right because if I'm talking Equity I'm
talking equity and if I can go to a
different culture in a country and
respect that culture for it is I better
be going to places in America where
people are polar opposite and respect
that culture for what it is that has
been something that's blown my mind like
looking at for example red versus blue
those are two cultures and if we can go
into each other's territory
understanding that you're going to
somebody's culture values and thinking
man I was like I thought I was right
this whole time but my opinion is a
grain of sand the next excerpt is from
episode 156 which is titled see what had
happened with Andre Dowdy I'm still
working on that
I think a lot of educators are still
working on that one thing that I did do
in Kobe kind of helped me realize it was
covet allowed so many people just to
slow down and stop and breathe and kind
of reset what things were because at one
time it for me it was I want to help the
school help that school help the school
go to this conference help the school
keynote over here help this help and I
was such on the go I was starting to
miss some of the things that were
important so it kind of helped me slow
down just a little and I appreciate it
now every Friday I try my best to have a
self-care day and for me that could be
something as simple as watching YouTube
videos on all of my watch lists that you
know oh that looks interesting going
down the rabbit hole of this that or the
other on Tick Tock or playing
PlayStation I don't get to play it very
often but when I do I have a good time
and so just trying to find those moments
to pull away get away from Tech get away
from work and just re-centering myself
in whatever way another thing that I do
every morning I exercise weekends I take
off weekends are like my eight weekends
but Monday through Friday man I'm
hitting that gym I'm hitting it hard
just to ground myself like you said it's
a lot of heavy work and sometimes you
find that you can't shift perspective
you see some of your friends some of
your family who are just racist and it
hurts your heart because you've known
them for x amount of years and they've
never ever said or felt that way and now
they say and they feel that way and once
when you confront them they stand firm
on that feeling and you say to yourself
well
I can no longer be with you I can no
longer hang around you I I can no longer
support your thinking in that way and
that's heavy that's hurtful that that's
emotionally it puts a drain on you so
being able to pull away and just to
reset to rest to relax some of my
teacher friends the way that they do it
they go shopping
I've seen a lot of people on Amazon and
seeing a lot of Amazon packages in this
house my wife is one of them who does
that I've seen them also like try new
hobbies you know pickleball never heard
of it it was never played in the hood
but all of a sudden there's a pickleball
court maybe about 10-15 minutes away and
I've heard a lot of my teacher friends
saying they want to try pickleball just
once again given the opportunity to pull
away from that how do you deal with it
man so many of what you just said like I
yesterday I I did like a drum stream so
myself practicing like trying to just
help people here's how I practice here's
how you might practice but before that I
did an Elden ring stream so it was like
me trying to show hey look you can have
fun playing video games and not like
rage quit and throw your controller
through the window kind of a thing like
so I do a lot of that I also do work out
like I I have a tie bag downstairs so I
do Muay Thai I do I built a stall bar
with my dad so I can like work on
gymnastics strength training stuff like
I try my best to be as healthy as I can
because especially reading and writing
and engaging in like Equity related work
like there's a lot of things to unpack
like I worked on a curriculum for the
win River Reservation in Wyoming which
has the northern Arapahoe and Eastern
Shoshone tribes and when you actually go
through the history of like what
happened to them in that reservation
like it's so disheartening like it's
it's saddening to see like this is how
we treated other people like as a
country as the government like so yeah I
trying to have many different things
that I can do to just help center myself
and focus on things that I can control
while still engaging in the difficult
work yeah and one of the best things
best piece of devices I got from it was
a student student was on Twitter and you
know how you go through this the Twitter
threads and something's viral and you
want to read the comments because the
comments is the best part of the you
know the buyer or whatever and this one
student was like you and I are both way
too smart on this subject I'm not going
to waste my time with you and that was
it and then the other person perhaps the
troll kept attacking and the student
kept replying you and I are way too
smart for this I'm not going to waste my
time with this it hit me because
oftentimes I'm really you know on social
media social justice Warrior I'm like
but here's researcher his stats you know
here's the website and here's a video
here's a tick tock hear somebody what
they said the entire time I'm like they
just want to argue so let me just keep
scrolling it's not worth the fight
locally right here in Oklahoma right now
a lot of Online Social Media stuff has
been minerals versus Lincoln Riley you
know was Lincoln Riley wrong why did
Lincoln Riley leave Oklahoma Lincoln
Lincoln and you can just see the common
threads and it's not worth it he chose
what he chose it was a business decision
he got a free personal jet that's what
he wanted to do it's no longer worth
people commenting it's not working the
people who are baiting and trolling
perhaps this is what they're doing so
for me one of the best stress reliefs
ever is to not comment and just say okay
that's what they want to believe all
right and it's like you said it's a fine
balance of it because there are some
times that you do need to step in and
speak up and say before this becomes
more misinformation and More Lies here's
the resource I like for you to read
here's the thing yeah yeah it's hard
being somebody who like identifies
through and through as an educator like
somebody who wants to help people learn
things like when it comes to problematic
Behavior it's hard to sometimes be like
to not say hey here's a resource that
can help you when the people are just
not willing to engage in a discussion
like if it's more of a monologue that
I'm trying to have a dialogue like at
some point it's just like okay I
provided some resources I hope
eventually you get to a place where you
are able to dive deeper into it yeah and
I'll give them too I'll give them two
chances we'll dialogue two rounds and if
the needle is not shifting or if you're
not not even open to the needle shifting
all right it's been great having a
conversation with you I look forward to
more because you're not you're just
putting more weight and pressure on you
and some people are doing it just to
troll other people they just want to
read and so you're speaking your truth
and you're speaking your voice and
you're giving opportunities for learning
they're just gonna have to pick it up on
their own time and the next excerpt is
from episode 165 which is titled
intersections of equity making and
computer science with Roxanna Haddad I
do think there's little wins that I can
focus on and that could be just a
discussion with a school leader it could
be it could just be you know one an
uptick on one data point or something
you really have to celebrate the tiny
wins because they're tiny and they will
be Tiny But like they are big for some
kids somewhere so those are the things
that you really have to focus on in
addition like I make sure to work out
like every day and I try to work out as
hard as possible to get all the stress
and anxiety out I meditate I play with
my kids I try to go on Hikes it is
draining work you know one of the
concerns I had is like what I see
happening to school leaders is that they
feel like they don't have agency that
you know they're just a cog in the
machine kind of thing sometimes because
they are part of a system that can
perpetuate oppression and they sort of
don't feel like they have the ability to
make changes that is what happens when
you focus on the bigger picture only and
like oh my God we're not making big
gains but you know I specifically
remember like this one kid in my maker
space saying like oh I know I want to go
to college and I know I want to do
computer science now like that kid was
maybe 15 years ago but I still remember
him because I'm like that was a
difference for that one kid that was
like that one kid it like you have to
find your meaning and for me that was
like meaning and it's not like because I
feel like all kids should major in
computer science and go to college it's
more that I helped that kid find his
path and you know he's a Latino he was
somebody who wasn't one of the
represented students so really focusing
on you know those tiny little wins are
the only way that I think we're going to
survive doing this Equity work
constantly yeah I appreciate that I am
privileged in that like the content that
I create that's really available like
whether it's the lesson plans of boot up
or this podcast or whatever like it can
spread to a lot of people and have
potential impact but I don't see that
impact because I'm not in the classroom
and I don't hear teachers respond it
wasn't until csta National this summer
where like people were like hey I
recognize your voice like I listen to
your podcast I'm like whoa people listen
like I just I don't know because it
doesn't feel like I get that immediate
responses like when I worked in the
classroom when I was working one-on-one
with a kid you could see that like
engagement and whatnot so it's a
different kind of yeah I feel bad Jared
like I was in your podcast and I don't
ever like
I think maybe once and it was because it
was a paper that like we had written but
like I mean they're all so good so I'll
be sure to remember to like call you out
on Twitter so you get that little win
that little bit of endorphin somebody
listened
nobody listened yeah it's I don't know
it's been a weird like this last year I
started like sharing gaming and drumming
stuff like on my YouTube channel and
whatnot that has been weird as well
because like I'm at almost a million
views now and it's like it doesn't feel
like there's hundreds of thousands of
people who have engaged with my content
but there has been which is neat I mean
can I ask you a question yeah so that is
something I want to learn more from you
about so I talked about the ways that
like you know I work out I hike you know
I have my art background but it has been
so hard for me to really get back into
that like my life has really been just
really like computer science work and
family and I've just been so impressed
with how you do the drumming the gaming
the Cs educations like stuff and you
still read research how do you do that
well part of it is not having children
so that makes it so I have a lot more
time than my peers sure that's like a
huge like one of the number one things
my wife is also a very busy type a
individual and I mean that in the best
way possible so because we're both so
busy like we do schedule in time for
each other and then outside of that I
schedule in I'm planning on gaming on
like Monday Wednesday and Saturday
evenings with one of my friends who's
across the country like I try and make
sure I do that and like with the music
side of things it's the same thing like
on Saturdays and Sundays I try and
stream in the morning and it holds me
accountable because now I'm going to
practice publicly like it's making it so
that I'm almost being like forced to do
that like with the podcast when I do the
unpacking scholarship episodes one of
the reasons why I do that is because if
I don't have a guest lined up cool I can
just release an episode on my own it's
not reliant on anyone don't have to put
pressure Etc but the other reason why is
it forces me to stay on top of like
Recent research and to just keep
learning and reading because otherwise
I'll find something else to do because
there's always a billion things to do
but when it comes down to it like one of
the things that I really learned in the
last two years in particular like during
covet is I need to have a clearer
separation between what I do in my 40
hour work week and what I do in my
leisure and so I'm trying to have very
distinct start and end points for that
and so like in the mornings like I'll do
workouts like you were saying but then
like I say I start at eight o'clock
working eight hour a day I will then do
cardio at the end of the day to kind of
put like a cap on that and say now I'm
done for the day now I'm going to focus
on doing other stuff like video editing
for the gaming content or like playing
video games or hanging out with my wife
or whatever so having that separation
has helped because I am the kind of
person who won't stop working I'm
technically even though it's like
Leisure I'm working on gaming and
drumming stuff and putting out social
media content like a lot but I
previously would only do computer
science stuff non-stop but because now
I'm doing multiple things it keeps it
fresh so when I come back to the Cs
stuff like I'm like oh this is something
different and new that I wasn't doing on
the weekend and then when it's on the
weekend or the weeknight I'm like oh now
I get to work on this other thing some
of the challenges like now I love
working from home but I do think it's
making it challenging for me to like
make hard stops as to when work time is
and when not work time is yeah one of
the things that I also did was I
actually had the office in a separate
location from my leisure and so when I'd
go into that office this is privilege of
having the space for that then I it was
work mode and when I exited the office I
would shut the door and I'm done for the
day or the weekend or whatever and I
would not focus on that now I've kind of
put myself into a little bit of a pickle
and that like there's two drum sets in
here and a marimba and like this is
where I like I make music and have fun
this is also where I game but it's also
where I work so I try and like do my
best to make sure that like I am still
mentally separating those and I'm not
thinking about work outside of it and
I'm not thinking about like drumming and
gaming when I'm working Etc but
sometimes easier said than done oh for
sure for sure I don't know if I can do
that but I can try yeah I mean like you
mentioned though with working out but
also the meditation side of things like
that has helped to try and refocus
thoughts whether it's like I'm gonna do
a gratitude meditation so for 20 minutes
I'm just going to focus on things I'm
grateful for or focus on an object like
my dog and just like petting her or just
like even just sitting outside and
looking at the birds who are like eating
from the bird feeder like that kind of
attention training almost has been
really helpful for being able to focus
my mind on work or Focus my mind on
Leisure and be intentional in that
moment yeah I wonder I mean I am such an
advent
later I wonder what a mess I would be
without it like has this like because
it's I feel like my mind is chaos like
with it so maybe I don't know it
probably has helped me in ways that I
don't see yeah I mean I didn't do any of
it until I went to a therapist because I
was like ours on the edge of suicidality
and in like high school and undergrad I
was suicidal for the majority of that
period of time and when I went to a
therapist she had me start doing yoga
and I did it an hour in the morning an
hour in the evening and I did that every
single day for weeks and like just to
feel the change in my body and whatnot
like I know what the before and the
after is like and so I am I try to be
very intentional about working out about
getting my sleep about eating healthy
about meditating because I know where it
will take me when I don't do that kind
of stuff and so I'm extremely grateful
even though like you're saying like even
though I do all these things like I
still get stressed out Etc but I know
I'd be in a much worse place if I didn't
do all these things yeah totally no it's
it's so important for me to do every day
and it's a really it's not a good day
when I don't do those things yep the
next excerpt is from episode 173 which
is titled empathetic listening and
computer science with Josh Sheldon so
I'm not always great at it you know one
of my symptoms is depression and that
can be exacerbated by or at least
correlated with observations on where
the world I feel like the world is going
that said I believe in the richness of
humanity and the enlivening capabilities
of just shared effort and shared Joy you
know just doing things together as a
team with other people is very very
important to me and contributes to my
well-being being around other people
frequently and to reduce my well-being
things like singing together you know
just intentionally making opportunities
to be joyful together even in hard times
and you know I can't even pretend to
understand the African-American
experience you know the black experience
in this country but I can see the power
in you know song and enjoy in their
communities that I have to think you
know can provide some solace in hard
times and a final excerpt is from
episode 189 which is titled
computational literacies with Michael
Horn I mean I think it's just really
hard I see this you know happening like
people just throw themselves into work
like there's no other you know there's
nothing else that's important in life
it's really hard because you can like if
you're not actively trying to prevent it
like avoid it like our culture is just
geared and it's not just Academia like I
think it's any you know any number of
different kinds of jobs that are just
sort of geared up to burn you out as
quickly as possible unless you are
active simply working to prevent it and
so like part of me is like kind of
figuring out like there are things I
really really love about my job I love
teaching I love working with students I
love going into fifth grade classrooms I
really like writing when I can you know
like and so just recognizing the things
that like really bring you Joy making
sure that you have time to do those
things which and but it's hard it's
really hard to avoid burnout and yeah I
don't know how do you avoid burnout oh
so many different approaches it's one of
the reasons why I ask like is each guest
is because I want to learn from them so
I can figure it out like you're
mentioning the the thinking time while
walking so I use the Pomodoro method
where I'll work for 50 minutes five zero
minutes and then I'll take a 10 minute
walking break where like I'll just be on
my treadmill and I might listen to a
podcast or listen to music or like play
a video game um because I have like a TV
mounted on it things like that just to
give me that time to move because I'm
the kind of person where if I don't set
an alarm I won't stop working and then
I'll be like oh wow I haven't eaten in a
few hours and it's like dark outside and
I didn't even realize that right so
there's that there's just like setting
very clear boundaries with like at this
time of day I'm going to stop working on
this thing and like focus on like
hanging out with my wife Etc yeah yeah I
have to be very structured like you'll
notice while I was like in this
conversation I was drinking a liquid
salad like that makes it so that I don't
have to sit down and eat I can just like
drink my lunch while having a
conversation like things like this just
little things that make us so it saved
me five ten minutes here or there it all
adds up in the end so that I can be more
intentional with my time my energy my
attention Etc throughout the day I don't
think this is right but I think that
that the burden of avoiding burnout is
is on the individuals who are you know
that it's rare that you find a job
that's structurally supports you in life
not getting burnt out and the social
problem was like if I just did what I
was contractually obligated to do I
don't think I would feel burnt out but I
love doing all of these other things and
I myself into projects and like and I
think that that's the danger also being
a creative person is that you know we
get excited about building things and
doing things and creating things and
then like and that's all on top of
everything else and I think I don't I
don't have good solutions for you and
that concludes all the excerpts from
last year's interviews as a friendly
reminder in the show notes you can find
excerpts from more than 70 other podcast
interviews where we specifically talk
about how to prevent burnout in computer
science education also in the shout outs
I'll include a link to a presentation
that I did with Jen Manley that
specifically talks about some more
suggestions for preventing burnout in
education so make sure you check that
out in the show notes at Jared
o'leary.com if you enjoyed this episode
consider listening to the full
interviews or sharing this or the other
burnout episodes with somebody else that
you know just trying to help the field
out because it's a difficult profession
stay tuned next week for another episode
until then I hope you're all staying
safe and are having a wonderful week
Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode
Listen to prior supercuts on preventing burnout
Listen to the full episodes of each excerpt
How to Get Started with Computer Science Education
In this episode I provide a framework for how districts and educators can get started with computer science education for free.
154 Decolonizing Education through SEL and PBL with Matinga Ragatz
In this interview with Matinga Ragatz, we discuss Matinga’s journey into education, creating environments where kids can learn through struggle, the importance of social and emotional learning (SEL), how schools promote individualism and exceptionalism, the intersections of project-based learning and SEL, decolonizing education, the importance of shared values in education, and so much more.
156 See, What Had Happened with Andre Daughty
In this interview with Andre Daughty, we discuss how an educator in Andre’s life sparked a passion that led to a career in education, representation in education, thoughts on what’s holding back the field of education, setting boundaries when communicating with people who are being disrespectful, taking care of yourself to prevent burnout, the Mamba mentality, Andre’s intentionality with improving as a public speaker, the importance of play in learning, growing a podcast audience, and so much more.
165 Intersections of Equity, Making, and Computer Science with Roxana Hadad
In this interview with Roxana Hadad, we discuss the blurring of formal and informal learning within makerspaces and culture, how Roxana’s understanding of education evolved over time, feeling lost when having too much choice with one’s learning, the intersections of makerspaces and equity, problematizing discourse and definitions around computational thinking and computer science, preventing burnout while working on many different projects, feeling a lack of agency in education, the future of communication for academics, and so much more.
173 Empathetic Listening in Computer Science with Josh Sheldon
In this interview with Josh Sheldon, we discuss computational action, designing exploratory professional development experiences, learning how to listen to and empathize with students, applying SEL with teachers, the future of teaching and learning, the problems with external influences on CS education, and so much more.
189 Computational Literacies with Michael Horn
In this interview with Michael Horn, we discuss computational literacies vs computational thinking, power in literacy, cultural imperialism, the impact of programming language on identity, the intersections of music and CS, and so much more.
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