Empathetic Listening in Computer Science with Josh Sheldon

In this interview with Josh Sheldon, we discuss computational action, designing exploratory professional development experiences, learning how to listen to and empathize with students, applying SEL with teachers, the future of teaching and learning, the problems with external influences on CS education, and so much more.

  • Are you familiar with the term

    computational action or want to learn

    more about designing exploratory

    professional development experiences or

    about learning how to listen and

    empathize with students or applying SEL

    with teachers instead of just students

    or the future of teaching and learning

    or maybe you want to learn more about

    the problems with external influences on

    Cs and education as well as many other

    topics my name is Jared O'Leary and I've

    had experience working with every single

    grade kindergarten through doctoral

    students I can say with confidence that

    today's conversation with Josh Sheldon

    is a wonderful conversation that I think

    you will enjoy you can find links to

    other podcasts that are relevant to this

    particular episode as well as some of

    the other things we talk about in our

    conversation and all of that can be

    found at jaredoleery.com or by simply

    clicking the link in the app that you're

    listening to this on I'm Josh Sheldon I

    am a computer science educator working

    in the area of throttling and

    participation increasing representation

    and equity in computer science education

    specifically I work at the teaching

    systems Lab at MIT where we strive to

    help anyone who facilitates learning or

    teaches someone other people to become

    better at that teaching and facilitating

    of life you tell me the story of how you

    got into Computer Science Education sure

    it's a bit of a winding road I

    definitely didn't follow a linear path

    to get here I have been sort of

    interested in Computing and in

    technology for as long as I can remember

    started programming in about second

    grade with a well I think in first grade

    I learned a logo at school and then in

    second grade we got our first actual

    computer personal computer in the house

    which was an Atari 1600 or Atari 800 I

    believe and I learned basic sort of by

    typing in programs from the back of

    magazines which was

    a remarkably bad learning experience but

    we programmed some it was empowering

    because we programmed some neat game I

    just didn't learn very much from it

    beyond that I've been mostly self-taught

    within Computing looking back on it now

    from the lens I carry I'd say I had a

    lot of privilege that both of my parents

    are Highly Educated they saw computers

    personal Computing coming and you know

    had the wherewithal and the both

    financially and sort of intellectually

    to know that this was going to be a

    thing that was valuable to anyone and

    made that happen in our house and

    encouraged me and programmed with me so

    that was great I've been an educator and

    I've you know I'm a lifelong learner

    learner myself I believe very very

    strongly in the power of Education in

    learning for everyone and the education

    is a social justice issue that we need

    to close the opportunity Gap and build a

    Equitable system in which anyone who

    wants to and you know essentially

    everyone is afforded the opportunity to

    get an education in the area is that are

    of interest to them and in some quarters

    that are important to our society so

    I've been working primarily in stem

    education for the early part of my

    career to developed I taught for two

    years and got a degree in educational

    technology where I did some programming

    but not actually teaching others to

    program or teaching computer science

    then ended up at MIT in a lab that does

    games and simulations for Education it's

    the sheller teacher education program

    led by Professor Eric klopfer where I

    was hired to work on a project that uh

    outdoor augmented reality so this was in

    that allowed people to program outdoor

    augmented reality games think Pokemon go

    by themselves using our tools and you

    know Pokemon go came online in what

    of the curve it's pretty cool looking

    back to think about that yeah and so

    that was sort of my first introduction

    to Computer Science Education in that we

    were Building A system that allowed

    people to program so we were building a

    labor abstraction on top of other

    programming languages that let people

    program logic into games I then also

    picked up a project helping people learn

    complex systems in biology using the

    star logo programming environment which

    has a rich history that it's a

    descendant of the original logo a direct

    descendant which we may talk about later

    but is one of the you know maybe the

    first educational program in language

    and then I moved got even more serious

    about Computer Science Education I

    became the primary part of my job when I

    worked on the App Inventor team at MIT

    did many things there thought a lot

    about computational thinking thought

    about and published on both

    computational thinking but also

    computational actions which was an idea

    that with Mike tysonbaum we coined that

    term which is not brand new Concepts but

    it's a new articulation of things that

    we've known and sort of a mashup of

    things that in a novel way that have

    been bumping around in the field of

    Computer Science Education for a while

    what is it I'm not familiar with the the

    term computational action the gist of it

    is that students shouldn't be learning

    programming for the sense of the sake of

    programming that we want to engage

    students in their learning we want to

    build their conception of themselves as

    people who can engage in the business of

    computing of computer science and one

    way to do that that we posit is a you

    know strong engaging factor is getting

    them to work on real projects real world

    so it draws from project-based learning

    and that we don't necessarily even

    accepted the sort of introductory level

    specify what tools they have to use and

    we more support them in picking up the

    tools and the concepts they need to

    complete the the project that they

    co-designed or designed for themselves

    to do okay it had draws some pieces from

    Service Learning in the projects are

    often somehow pro-social and for the

    benefit of their school or other

    communities which is known to be

    important in building Equity that

    traditionally underrepresented groups

    whether it be people of color or young

    women and we know engage more and

    participate more when they're doing

    objects and work that is beneficial to

    their communities as opposed to just

    learning a programming language in the

    abstract what about beneficial to the

    individual so like self-expression Etc

    there's a lot of value there that's not

    necessarily what we set forth in the

    idea of computational action but it's a

    very good point that self-expression and

    creativity are you know very meaningful

    to students I do think that there's a

    shade there that could be like a shade

    of meaning that could be drawn there

    that I think there's something very

    important about impact with other people

    self-expression can certainly engage

    with other people you can make art that

    is important to you that is moving to

    other people but you can also have

    self-expression for your own sake which

    is no less valid but it doesn't

    necessarily engage with the other people

    around you yeah the that's a really

    interesting idea and the framing of it

    is computational action I do think that

    there's like this tendency in school at

    large not just in like computer science

    class or whatever but in general most of

    my schooling experience was schooling

    for the sake of schooling and there was

    like no application that had any real

    world benefit both in terms of the

    communities I lived in or with myself as

    an individual to like even express

    myself so it's it's nice to hear

    somebody who also like thinks schooling

    should be for doing something like to to

    improve or to better a community or to

    better under stand a community or even

    oneself I really do like the that

    question that you asked about

    self-expression that really is powerful

    and I'll definitely think about that and

    incorporate that into my work and you're

    absolutely right that it is not at all

    endemic to Computer Science Education

    that you know the classic joke for math

    is when are we ever going to use this

    and teach stutters and doesn't know what

    to say because they say oh well you'll

    need this in the future and that's great

    and all but you know that is sort of the

    marshmallow test which is the classic

    you know if you don't eat this

    marshmallow now you can have two

    marshmallows later yep and it's testing

    it's apparently supposed to be

    predictive of future success in life but

    apparently that's been debunked even so

    to expect that kind of self-regulation

    and patience on the part of a learner is

    an awful lot to expect of young people

    of any people let alone young people we

    don't see that in adult education in

    adult learning it's very much the case

    that most education that happens and

    learning that happens outside of you

    know formal schooling and in the

    workplace is just in time learning or

    taking a course because you're starting

    a new role and you need to have these

    skills so it's much more practical and

    yeah we don't do that for younger

    Learners yeah which is a shame

    especially with the young kids like you

    can do so many cool things but then over

    time it becomes like schooling often

    becomes less creative I think in high

    school and in undergrad it's more

    recreative and solving problems that

    have already been solved generally

    speaking and it's not until the Masters

    where you start to explore outside of

    that and then really in the doctorate

    when it's finally like okay what is

    something that is underexplored or not

    explored at all that you want to like

    dive into and learn more about and like

    had a new Uncharted territories for sure

    and as a physicist major student of math

    and physics I can understand some piece

    of that because there's just so much the

    skill you have to build to be able to

    make new contributions to the field yeah

    there's just this huge body of

    understanding and skill that you can't

    know without a lot of development but

    that said there are ways to design

    educational experiences that provide

    some opportunity for creativity early on

    and don't ask you to be as as you said

    recreative they can be more exploratory

    and ask you to discover things it may

    not be new things that you're

    discovering but you're unearthing them

    because they're new to you I'm curious

    as somebody who has kind of like had

    some experience designing or learning if

    you're like mentoring someone who is

    trying to create professional

    development or even just a learning

    experience what advice might you give

    them given what you were just talking

    about as with any creative experience

    Russian creative experience one of the

    biggest things is know your audience

    know who you're working for and that

    comes through experience of working with

    people and through being a good listener

    and through working with people getting

    out there don't design in a vacuum get

    out if possible coat design work with

    the people the Learners and the

    Educators who are also going to be

    Learners early and periodically so get

    them in before you've designed something

    that is you know set in drying concrete

    get them in the choice of materials so

    you don't go down the road and then test

    it with users and realize oh I've got to

    scrap all of this it's not working at

    all listening is so important to all of

    Education both as for Learners and for

    people who are facilitating learning

    yeah I unpacked a paper a keynote that I

    was talking about how educators should

    really engage in radical listening and

    really understand and only where you are

    working but who you are working with

    like the individuals the groups the

    communities Etc and the context in which

    you're in I'm kind of curious is there a

    story of a moment or Catalyst that kind

    of led to that recommendation like for

    myself a lot of what I recommend for

    other people is because I had really bad

    experiences that were the opposite of

    what I recommend

    I wouldn't say there's one experience

    that was like a game changer for me

    there's a series of experiences that

    stand out for me as really good examples

    I definitely had some honor examples but

    it doesn't sound like anything compared

    to your experience I had some really

    good Educators that I worked with you

    know learned from in school in middle

    school and high school and even I don't

    remember elementary school as much but

    you know I remember liking the teachers

    and to me electing the teachers means

    they know me and they understand who I

    am and I'm able to are able to meet me

    where I am in college I worked in the

    Service Learning Center that helped

    match volunteers with volunteer

    opportunities and it was led by a woman

    named Judy Curley who was a PhD student

    in counseling psychology she just taught

    us about how to really listen to people

    active listening and building empathy

    with with other people who are different

    than myself and I think that you know

    listening and empathy go hand in hand

    and empathy is very very important also

    to education I should you know also give

    credit to my Aunt Julie Vogel is you

    know very skilled listener and I call

    them mirrors people that reflect ideas

    back to me and let me hear what I've

    just said without judgment sometimes

    with a probing question that goes along

    with it and there have been other

    examples of people like that in my life

    that really have helped me hone my

    listening skills it really resonates

    with me and what I tried to do when I

    was in the classroom so my biggest

    motivator for getting into education was

    I was I was suicidal in high school and

    undergrad and like the thing that kept

    me going was making music and like being

    a part of like Drumline and things like

    that and so I wanted to help others who

    may be struggling through similar things

    and so music making was the way to do

    that I then like roundabout ended up in

    a computer science after many years but

    the the the core idea of wanting kids to

    be able to express themselves and to

    kind of have a way to learn something

    that is Meaningful to them as an

    individual um was really helpful but

    because that was like the the core of

    why I went into this I feel like I went

    in really actively listening and trying

    to understand what students might be

    saying without saying something um

    whether it's like anxiety or depression

    or whatever or just like hey they need

    somebody to talk to and trying to

    understand I have noticed that there are

    some Educators that I've worked with who

    might not have had as many mental

    struggles as I did and so they were not

    able to necessarily know what to listen

    for or how to empathize with somebody

    who was not being overt with some of the

    things that they were subtly

    communicating and honestly probably

    trying to hide like I was when I I was

    in high school I didn't want people to

    know that I was suicidal so I just look

    like a really angry person and people

    just didn't know what was really going

    on in my head I'm curious if like how

    you have learned to listen and empathize

    or how you may have seen other people

    try and do that if they don't know what

    to listen for initially the idea of

    computational action often involves

    teamwork and working on a team to do

    something that you couldn't accomplish

    by yourself or that I couldn't

    accomplish by myself and I noticed that

    you said being part of a drumline was

    important and I often think of finding

    your people finding your place as being

    a very important part of development and

    comfort and combating loneliness and

    disconnection so I want to emphasize

    that it's I think it's important very

    important to building group projects

    many reasons not you know limited to

    you're going to use this in the future

    in the business setting but just like

    right it's psychologically healthy to

    have people that you know how to work

    with or that you can work with and be

    creative together so going back to the

    question you asked of I developed these

    listening skills and this empathy part

    of it was I mean working with Judy in

    college you know she made us practice

    um and she is a psychologist so she you

    know taught us about body language and

    what that tells us you know being very

    attentive and you know this idea of

    reflecting back and just using wait time

    you know I learned that in various

    places but just being silent is and

    being with someone is very powerful in

    many ways listening included but also

    just being a human with someone else and

    being there non-judgmentally is

    enormously important uh you mentioned

    suicidality I also um have been through

    you know attempts and mental health

    struggles and so I've been through years

    of therapy and I've learned from my

    therapist that you know some better some

    worse but you know that is a skill that

    many people in that profession have and

    I think you know we do educational

    psychology for prospective teachers

    which many of our listeners will know

    that that's you know educational

    theories uh vygotsky and Zona proximal

    development and stuff like that but you

    know I think it would behoove us to pay

    more attention to you know the social

    emotional learning of Educators

    themselves and by proxy the what they

    can bring to Learners so explicitly

    teaching these skills that's a really

    interesting point I first I want to say

    thank you for your vulnerability I

    appreciate that I I know that there are

    people out there who are going through

    or who have been through mental health

    struggles and feel like they're alone

    and so one of the reasons why I share

    the struggles that I've been through so

    that people know hey I like you're not

    alone in this and then two that you can

    get better with it like with therapy and

    Etc they're not a permanent thing but

    I'm to jump on to what you were just

    talking about it's really interesting

    that SEL is often discussed in relation

    to students but the way that you just

    framed it also talks about it in

    relation to teachers as well and that is

    a conversation that honestly I wish we

    had more of as a field and it is

    happening in Pockets here and there was

    just at a conference called the systems

    awareness lab conference the systems

    awareness lab is a relatively new Lab at

    MIT led by metabol Peterson and they're

    the two main leads Eric Clopper is also

    involved my friend Lana cook is an

    important part of it and I was at the

    conference last week and they absolutely

    are thinking about we'll call it SEL for

    lack of a better term but wellness and

    mindfulness for members of the

    educational Community not just students

    but also Educators and there are other

    places it's happening given what's you

    know the trend for the last 20 plus

    years has been we're losing teachers and

    that's and the at least the last 20

    years that's when I when I've been in

    education enough to know about it and

    pay attention to it it may be longer

    than that the last three years of the

    pandemic pandemic have certainly

    accelerated the you know career changing

    from teaching to other places retirement

    and you know the mental well-being of

    anybody in schools has plummeted there's

    plenty of evidence to show that research

    and otherwise so the more we can do to

    provide people with coping tools and I

    want to very much emphasize that coping

    tools are just that they're coping tools

    and they can be important in the rest of

    your life and they're crucial to have

    but their coping tools they're not fixed

    for the system which which in many ways

    has a lot of room for improvement so we

    don't want to drive people to the point

    where they need those coping skills but

    recognize that right now we have a

    system that does necessitate them if you

    could wave a magic wand what's something

    that you might be able to change in the

    system so I'll go back to the systems

    awareness lab conference and say we're

    not good at knowing what that thing or

    things are to change education is an

    amazingly complex system and part of the

    definition of complex systems is that

    there are non-linear non-intuitive

    effects Json inputs you know I can say

    what an outcome I would like to see is

    but I can't really say this is the thing

    I want to change to achieve that up and

    I mean one is that I absolutely would

    change in a heartbeat is it goes to

    listening to students to meet in the

    where they're at being real with

    students Learners of all kinds people of

    all kinds their world that they live in

    for their lifetime is not going to be

    the one that I've lived in climate

    change is a real thing and it's going to

    make life hard and I want to acknowledge

    that and honor that not brush it under

    the carpet so and there are other

    examples of that and I want to support

    kids you know there's this epidemic of

    loneliness and disconnection and

    different kinds of mental health

    challenges that has been happening for

    the last 10 years at least and you know

    ramping up for the last 10 years before

    covid and you know the data is not in

    yet but it's clearly accelerated since

    the pandemic and so that's probably the

    main thing I would is you know just

    going back to social emotional learning

    and mental health support and the

    corollary to that is something that is a

    pet peeve of mine that people talk as if

    there's a dichotomy between social

    emotional learning and the academic

    instruction and learn learning that if

    you take time for social emotional

    learning it's a zero-sum game and you're

    taking time away from academic

    instruction and that's just not true

    yeah there's good evidence to show and

    that you know more relaxed kids who are

    have more executive function and are

    comfortable with their peers and their

    teachers learn better they learn more

    and faster and are more creative and

    that's what we want you know it's a

    multiplicative thing that on the in the

    other direction kids who are more

    successful in academic instruction are

    more comfortable with themselves they're

    more proud of themselves they have more

    self-efficacy and that builds confidence

    and their social emotional skills one of

    the things that I'm I'm really

    fascinated with is thinking about how

    philosophies or understandings of

    Education kind of change over time like

    my own when I reflect on it when I first

    started teaching my senior year of high

    school versus now like there have been

    so many catalysts that led me down

    different paths and I'm curious for you

    how has your understanding of Education

    kind of changed or evolved over time or

    if we want to be more specific like

    what's something that you believed when

    you first started working in education

    that you no longer believe oh my

    goodness so again I look back well over

    my lifetime and you know it's there are

    any number of iffy statements that say

    the you know expert is the one who knows

    how much they don't know and you know

    developing humility about that and I'd

    say that when I started as a teacher I

    realized very quickly in the classroom

    that wow I don't know how to manage a

    classroom as a first year teacher

    because that's what happens to

    first-year teachers and that's an aside

    but we could get much better at teaching

    classroom management right now our

    systems are not good at that but you

    know I thought teaching the way I had

    Learned was the way to go I had a few

    education classes I did not have a

    degree in education but even then we

    know that people go through education

    degrees study pedagogy get into the

    classroom and take some pieces of that

    but also largely

    um default to the way they learned when

    they were in school it's a you know

    self-perpetuating cycle and that some

    people will then realize iterate on

    those pieces and change their

    construction style and behavior and

    models of Education

    I hear you asking how has that happened

    for me it's a lot of reflection being

    observed and having the opportunity to

    reflect with people who are very good at

    the crafting it's watching I mean the

    chance to observe really good teachers

    and it's listening to Learners and you

    know realizing I bombed that and how can

    I actually

    you know and they'll tell you either you

    know this is where you get it the verbal

    versus non-verbal and behavioral you

    know they'll tell you one way or the

    other that this didn't work for you you

    know some of the what we think of as

    quote-unquote good students may not tell

    you and they'll figure it out on their

    own and you know want to maintain the

    perception that they're you know doing

    the right things in classrooms but it's

    really the middle of the pack in the

    first terms of as if it's a competition

    but the

    kids who might be considered less good

    Learners who you really have to watch

    and understand where they're at

    um they may tell you directly if you

    give them a safe and permissive place to

    do so I think that's another piece of

    listening is that you have to make the

    place where you're allowing them to

    speak to you a safe place and you know

    really honor what they say not ignore

    you know not have them say it and then

    ignore it you know you can say I can't

    do that or I'm not going to do that but

    I hear you and that's okay but just

    saying not taking any action on it is

    not okay I'm curious what motivates you

    about your work and the impact that

    you're trying to have on the field right

    now the main thrust of my work is

    building equity and representation in

    high school computer science Equity has

    been a part of my vocation or avocation

    as long as I can remember it's something

    that really matters to me leave it

    probably comes in large part out of my

    being raised Jewish but also you know

    out of my grandparents on the other side

    who are not Jewish living in community

    with each other in a small farming

    community in northeast Pennsylvania and

    then on the Jewish side you know being

    only a generation or two removed from

    people who fled Germany and Europe

    during the Holocaust and wanting to do

    better make the world a better place

    there's a concept of tikkuno lam in

    Judaism that is something that I've

    Loosely translated as leaving the world

    a better place than I found it ever

    since I was a kid you know kids have

    this known inherent sense of unfairness

    and unfairness and I happen to have a

    set of experiences where you know I just

    observed that some people don't have as

    Fair or have a fair experience in our

    country and it bothered me and it

    continues to bother me it has for my

    whole life and I've wanted to do

    something about that I volunteered

    throughout high school and college and

    most of my adult life it's been

    something I've wanted to be part of make

    part of my work life so I'm very

    fortunate to have that opportunity now

    why do I think it's important within

    computer science part of it was economic

    the part of his power and part of it is

    civic responsibility so the economic and

    power go together that typically are

    traditionally marginalized communities

    have less power and have less economic

    means to take power and then civic

    responsibility is that and just life in

    the 21st and century and beyond means

    that technology is going to be done to

    you mostly whether or not you like it

    and the amount you can ameliorate that

    is directly correlated to how much you

    know about how technology works

    and even then you know there are

    limitations so where do you see the

    future of learning and education and I

    do say those two as being two separate

    things where do you see us heading and

    how might we go to an optimistic version

    of either of those oh my goodness well

    you put the um Javi out at the end of

    that question that you want me to be

    optimistic about it that's harder

    um we could break it down into two

    different things like here's where I

    think it's going and here's where I'd

    like it to go instead sure and I think I

    will do that

    um so let's divide it into at least

    three parts learning I think there has

    been a really interesting shift in the

    past 25 years

    um with the add-in to the internet that

    people can learn a lot just from access

    to the internet

    um independent of formal education and I

    hope and think that there will be more

    of a movement or sort of atomized

    learning

    um outside of the formal educational

    system I hope there will be a movement

    towards more Project based and situated

    learning both within and without and

    outside of formal education for formal

    education I am I'm trying to be a

    realist I maintain hope and optimism

    that it will change but as a realist to

    recognize that is a big ship and we

    don't know yet how to all the levers

    that are going to make it a change of

    course and hopefully change course

    fairly dramatically people have been

    trying to reform education for quite

    some time

    and it's very resistant to change as big

    sisters are yeah and I think a lot of

    people who are kind of like trying to

    navigate those Waters don't really know

    where they're going and why like I'm

    thinking of politicians in particular

    when I make a statement like that like

    most politicians who have a profound

    impact on education and education policy

    might not have stepped foot in a

    classroom in decades let alone taught in

    a classroom so we like as Educators

    educational Scholars Etc like well we

    have opinions and research and practice

    that inform where we think we might head

    there are people outside of the field

    who are ultimately kind of like making

    decisions for us absolutely and this

    goes back to the theme that's an

    important here of listening the you know

    you don't necessarily have to have been

    in a classroom but you have to be humble

    about your experience and willing to

    listen to the people who have been in

    the classroom and in the schools and

    like again I'll emphasize that school

    systems and Educational Systems are very

    complicated complex systems that you

    know there are thousands of different

    classes of actors involve there are many

    different contexts in which education

    schools happen and there are resource

    disparities there are funding models

    that are different from state to state

    and municipality municipality and all

    that says it's a big task to make change

    yeah one of the interesting things that

    was new to me last week that this

    systems awareness lab conference and

    then keep mentioning is the idea that

    you know these are systems effects so

    they're affected by who knows how many

    variables and we literally don't know

    how many variables

    you know Student Success is first how do

    we measure Student Success and then how

    do we know what variables actually

    impact Student Success the most yep I

    mean that's a really hard question and

    yeah just by virtue of Being Human we

    tend to attribute it to a person not

    multiple people maybe a class of people

    but to a person so it's that student's

    teacher will bear the brunt of the

    either success or you know bear that

    brought to the failure or reap the

    rewards of the success yeah similarly

    for school systems you know the

    superintendent ultimately can do some

    things and change a lot but you know

    there are so many other variables and

    that person is still the scapegoat or

    the hero depending on you know perceived

    success of the school system and that's

    just not how complex systems work yeah

    and to actually view education and

    educational reform as a complex system I

    I think it's lordy who talks about the

    idea of a princess a ship of observation

    and when I first heard that concept and

    described it made sense with how parents

    that I've worked with like especially in

    like the marching band Community like

    have this like well this is how we did

    it in my day so you should be doing it

    that way too but like politicians in

    particular they they may spend multiple

    decades going through school and seeing

    it being done in a very particular way

    and so they learn what worked for them

    but they did not learn what the thought

    processes were and the context that were

    in influencing the teachers and the

    decisions that they made why they were

    doing certain things whether it was a

    policy or like a school mandate

    administrator mandate or just modifying

    to individuals so people spend so much

    time observing teaching but not

    understanding why and the context and so

    they they walk out with this like a a

    puzzle that is not completed yet but

    they think it is and they don't realize

    that they're missing so many of them

    important pieces that would completely

    change how a teacher might approach the

    situation in a different context like

    I'm very fortunate that I've worked in

    every grade kindergarten through

    doctoral student in a variety of

    contexts whether it was very low

    socioeconomic status to very high low

    diversity in terms of racial diversity

    to high racial diversity like a wide

    variety of different contexts and that

    has allowed me to see that one thing

    might work great for one class and not

    worked at all for a completely different

    class and I don't think most people

    outside of Education know that or

    understand it I agree completely and

    what you just said makes me think of

    ecosystems and the healthy ecosystems

    are diverse they have you know robust

    different soil conditions and the soil

    conditions and microclimates allow for

    diverse set of plants which then be

    different insects which feed different

    larger organisms larger animals yeah you

    can also think of ecosystems are very

    are complex systems as well and you can

    draw an analogy between education and

    ecosystems that there are different

    conditions in different places that

    require different solutions different

    approaches and yet it's a again a very

    human thing to do and I want to respect

    and although that you know I think the

    vast majority of people thinking about

    and working on education are doing so in

    good faith yeah you know they want the

    best for students and for teachers and

    for the system it's not universally true

    it's for the most part it's true but

    it's very human to want to say

    particularly you know since Henry Ford

    the there's one way we can do this and

    it'll work for everyone because that's

    simple that's black and white and you

    look to it what's the output of that

    going to be and that's a dystopian

    picture as well because if you use one

    approach to learning you're likely to

    have an output that's one approach to

    the world and that just sets creativity

    and discourse and you know so much

    richness from the world yeah I I do

    genuinely fear that the broader CS

    discourse has been too influenced by

    neoliberal influences and conversations

    uh like making it so that the one way

    that you could read a computer science

    discourse at large is that the entire

    purpose of Computer Science Education is

    to get a job as a computer scientist or

    in somehow tangentially related to

    computer science and I've always been

    against that like written papers about

    it but like I I'm really curious what

    your thoughts are on like generative AI

    in relation to that kind of course and

    just like the the impact on education at

    large and Beyond like I was speaking to

    one of my friends who's a professor and

    he was saying that at a different

    University not at his they found a

    student who used chat GPT to answer

    questions on like open response tests

    and they're able to like analyze and

    realize that it was chat GPT based off

    of their prior answers so like it's

    gonna have a profound impact on like

    learning as a whole but also Computer

    Science Education discourse like I know

    that was a lot but I'm curious what your

    perspectives are I've had similar I want

    to say qualms but it's more than qualms

    um you know disagreement with the

    discourse about you know computer

    science as a means to becoming a

    programmer and achieving economic

    freedom or just getting a good job to me

    that's not an okay share being if

    there's economic power that comes with

    it that's great but it's not necessary

    but not sufficient I've seen AI

    programming coming for you years you

    know 15 years at least and said you know

    it's not going to be that long in

    whatever scale we're looking at before

    sort of lower level programming is done

    by AI Bots and interesting as we record

    this we're in a watershed moment where

    Chachi BT is coming into a Zone and it's

    only going to accelerate and get better

    so there I've seen been trying to follow

    the just flood of examples and

    commentary that's been happening on this

    as people realize oh my God it's here

    you know it's been coming it's been here

    and people are just realizing from these

    few examples that just how powerful

    things are already yeah I very much you

    think that programming is going to be

    different that you're going to have to

    learn a different set of skills you may

    not have to learn nearly as much syntax

    say above a program language you may not

    have to learn as many programming

    languages you may be able to program

    with just actual natural language human

    natural language and asking the computer

    to you know make an app that takes these

    inputs and gives these outputs yeah

    um you know make a app that calculates

    and routes feature delivery trucks on

    the with weighted towards getting pizza

    there hot and using the least amount of

    fossil fuel

    who knows but you know my friend Daniel

    Wendell who worked at the teacher

    education program Lab at MIT and I used

    to talk about when will we get to the

    Star Trek level of computer power

    computing power what do you say computer

    tell me how long it will take to get to

    Planet X in the you know why solar

    system and or not even not even

    specifying the solar system just on an X

    and it will either know you're closest

    to the particular that particular planet

    that has that name if there are multiple

    or ask you you know which one do you

    want to go to so it'll be context aware

    and we're getting there already with

    Google assistant and things like that

    it's really a fantastically interesting

    time to be alive and watch this

    development you know it's scary in ways

    because it's changing and change is

    scary but you know generative AI will

    open up a lot of creative ability for

    people who may not have you know the

    years and years of programming training

    that was once needed to do these things

    and you know there will be a lot of hair

    programming where you team up someone

    who's a creative and a generative AI

    program and someone who's got a little

    bit more systems programming experience

    and they will be a super powerful team

    one thing that I've advocated to

    students that I interact with at the

    college level for quite some time is

    related to this which is you know don't

    get a degree in just computer science

    unless you want to be work in

    theoretical computer science and be

    proving axioms and or writing

    programming languages instead either in

    One Direction or another either double

    major or a minor in biology or a minor

    in computer science with a major in

    biology so that you have domain

    knowledge Beyond just computer programs

    if you want to be a programmer arm

    yourself make yourself interesting so

    that you can be conversion in some other

    domain and I particularly believe a lot

    in the power hour of business and

    Humanities because you know programmers

    are in some ways the well-paid worker

    bees of society whereas the people who

    understand the humanities and history

    are the people who are going to really

    have the power and be the ones who

    change the way the world works and you

    know even more so armed with knowledge

    or technology I have a lot to sit with

    and reflect on with what you're just

    talking about I just the wheels are

    definitely spinning I definitely

    appreciate that I'm curious how do you

    recommend we might ensure that Equity is

    infused within this future direction

    that involves trading alongside AI

    within educational context or just for

    the sake of creating Equity is hard to

    ensure because the people who have the

    resources have the resources maybe the

    only or at least the best way to work

    towards Equity is to really change the

    way we understand the humanity of the

    people around us and that's a huge task

    and it doesn't scale um it happens

    person to person or person to very small

    community and I think it comes by

    exposure to people who are different

    than me so I could see you know some

    interesting things happening actually

    with technology and you know say VR here

    or just various kinds of interactive

    worlds whether it be you know chat or

    you know 2D computer games or VR where

    you're asked to do perspective taking

    that of perspectives that are not your

    own and realizing how much we have in

    common with other people and so like

    building a shared belief in equity is

    the first stage towards Insurance equity

    and I'm not sure there's much else you

    know we can nibble around the edges

    otherwise so it's going to be hard to

    ensure equity and one thing again I'll

    note from the systems this lab

    conference is that what Equity means is

    going to be interesting to watch over

    the next 20 years and that we will be a

    majority minority country if we are not

    already before in the very near future

    so we're going to see some really

    interesting Dynamics as you know white

    folks are not the majority in the

    country anymore and they're trying to

    hold on to power and this goes to

    um this is courtesy of Michael McAfee

    who's a CEO of policy link a non-profit

    that does policy and advocacy work the

    the system is arranged the way it is now

    which is does not support Equity does

    not support Equity across all sorts of

    Dimensions but especially economic and

    that we're seeing the beginnings of you

    know a different color of people coming

    into power but we're not necessarily

    seeing a different model of what power

    means or more Equitable system coming

    online and you know that will be

    problematic it'll be the new king same

    as the old or queen ruler I I hear you

    but I'm also concerned because I hear

    you and I said looking at what I see

    happening in the world right now I'm not

    convinced we're heading in a more

    Equitable future there are things that

    are going on that are kind of trying

    some people are trying to like bring us

    back to segregation policies and I think

    part of what's feeling that might be

    that we are starting to live in narrower

    and narrower like cones of awareness and

    groups of people who all think the same

    thing on one hand it's great to find

    people who have a shared interest with

    yourself but on the other hand if that's

    all you listen to It's going to prevent

    that diversity of perspective and

    experience that I think can lead to

    better outcomes in terms of empathizing

    and understanding how not everyone

    thinks and behaves the way that you do

    and wants to live the way that you do

    and so we've gotten this like Rift as a

    country if we think of politics but even

    just like outside of politics and other

    areas of life that it feels like there's

    a wedge being driven further so that

    people are less likely to kind of

    connect with each other and that kind of

    concerns me when it comes to the

    Equitable side of things is it seems

    like things are getting worse with

    equity in the last couple of years in

    particular yes

    I I don't think you know my last answer

    or what you said are at all at odds with

    each other yeah

    um I believe firmly I will stand by my

    answer that you know understanding

    perspective taking and you know the

    common humanity is a way to build equity

    and probably you know I'd posit the best

    way that doesn't mean that we're doing

    it by any means or that we're on the

    cusp of doing it some people are working

    on it for sure but will it take hold and

    take root I don't know yeah as I said

    the powerful people are powerful and

    this may Verge on conspiracy theory but

    people in power benefit from this kind

    of division along relatively unimportant

    lines right yeah so you know if we're

    fighting each other about you know the

    color of our houses matching that is you

    know that's small potatoes that doesn't

    matter you know to my mind climate

    change and building economic incentives

    that are in line with ameliorating the

    effects of climate change or the you

    know two biggest issues that we face

    right now and you know everything else

    is and feel important and probably is

    important in some ways but it all takes

    a back seat to are we going to have a

    world to live in 20 years from now right

    and yeah people with economic power want

    to maintain that economic power and so

    changing incentive systems is scary to

    them and they may resist or will resist

    yeah even social power as well not just

    economic like there's so many different

    like layers of power like thinking from

    like a bardugian perspective that like

    people are like grasping to hold on to

    and maintain and whatnot for sure I'm

    curious like uh as somebody who has

    admitted also like working through some

    like mental health struggles and whatnot

    how do you try and take care of yourself

    and like prevent the burnout that can

    come with working in education or even

    specifically Equity when you're seeing

    some like horrible atrocities that

    you're trying to prevent or improve or

    whatever like it's still heavy and it

    can be very difficult at times to live

    in that space sure so I'm not always

    great at it you know one of my symptoms

    is depression and that can be

    exacerbated by or at least correlated

    with you know observations on where the

    world I feel like the world is going

    that said I believe in the richness of

    humanity and the enlivening capabilities

    of just shared effort and shared Joy you

    know just doing things together as a

    team with other people is very very

    important to me and contributes to my

    well-being being around other people

    frequently and diverse my well-being

    things like singing together you know

    just intentionally making opportunities

    to be joyful together even in hard times

    and you know I can't even pretend to

    understand the African-American

    experience you know the black experience

    in this country but I can see the power

    in you know song and enjoy in their

    communities that I have to think you

    know and provide some solace in hard

    times do you have any questions for

    myself or for the field one big question

    for the field that I have is

    particularly around Equity but around

    Computer Science Education in general it

    ties back to a lot of what we've talked

    around economic concerns and funding

    particularly for Computer Science

    Education and that specifically that

    we've seen a lot of funding coming from

    corporations I think with a sometimes

    explicit sometimes implicit desire to

    have more people who are capable of

    programming to become employees at those

    companies and I see a conflict of

    interest there between our Civic

    interests that's happening these are

    this is happening in public schools and

    public schools to me are primarily for

    benefiting the Learners and for

    benefiting our society and it's not

    clear to me that having private dollars

    teaching you know paying for computer

    science education is doing either of

    those things as well as we want it to be

    so the question then is what is a

    difference hopefully better funding

    model for Computer Science Education

    yeah I've that's something that I've

    been thinking about for years I've I've

    spoken with other individuals within the

    field who have worked at like other

    organizations that I've never been a

    part of and said things like well we

    wanted this to be more Equitable but our

    funder specifically said no no to like

    an equity lesson or whatever and in

    order to appease the funders like the

    developers of like whatever it was like

    a curriculum or something Have

    explicitly made things more beneficial

    for a company at the cost of what is

    best for students and teachers and

    society and I that's just so problematic

    in my opinion another layer to consider

    with this that I've really been sitting

    with quite a bit is there's a lot of

    money that goes towards professional

    development like a district having to

    pay for that or even an individual but

    there are ways to be able to put that

    content out there for free on YouTube

    and so that's something that I plan on

    doing over the course of the next year

    to try and help people who can't afford

    it or who don't want to buy into

    whatever it is the corporate influence

    that basically bought and paid for a

    professional development or curriculum

    or whatever that basically is catered to

    to that corporate need at whatever level

    whether it is literally getting rid of

    equity related conversations or um even

    less deviant examples similar to that

    yes absolutely and it can be less overt

    but just as Insidious that you know

    producing a curriculum or professional

    development that claims to

    we focus on Equity but it does a really

    bad job of it yeah and there are

    examples of that from prominent

    organizations yeah it's a challenging

    set of issues to unpack and work on

    there's another one that I really don't

    know it's a hard question

    um that is unique to Computer Science

    Education or in many ways unique there's

    some in physics some in chemistry but if

    you're highly qualified to teach

    computer science you're probably also

    qualified make three times as much money

    programming for one of these big

    corporations and there will be some

    people who decide to do teaching because

    it enriches their soul or because they

    believe in the social benefit or whatnot

    but teaching is hard teaching is really

    hard and as we talked about conditions

    for teachers are not great right now so

    how do we find a way to get more

    well-qualified people into the

    classrooms teaching computer science and

    while I believe firmly in organized

    labor in unions this becomes a challenge

    because districts public districts can't

    because of Union contracts can't pay an

    English teacher differently from a

    computer science teacher for the same

    number of years experience and same

    education level as far as I know you

    know this is a place where the supply

    and demand thing comes in and says you

    know if I can earn three times as much

    programming for Facebook as I can

    teaching high school computer science

    you know maybe I would think about it if

    I could make double the money that I can

    currently make in high school I would

    think about teaching but we can't do

    that and as I said I hugely value the

    humanities so I don't want to you know

    I'd rather just say okay let's make

    teaching a more compelling profession

    financially yeah that's an interesting

    thing to tackle I don't know what that's

    going to look like like 10 years from

    now what are the average teacher salary

    going to be Etc and is it going to

    change depending on what subjects you

    teach I mean there is discussion on like

    should you pay different amounts

    depending on what degree you're trying

    to get so like these conversations are

    happening but whether or not something

    comes of it I don't know are there any

    questions that we haven't discussed or

    that I haven't asked that you like to

    chat about so this isn't so much a

    question that but just something I'd

    love to say I know you have an audience

    of Educators and I just want to

    celebrate what teachers and educators

    are doing in our country and around the

    world it's such an important job and

    there's so many people that are trying

    their absolute hardest and very

    challenging situations and they deserve

    praise and celebration I love working

    with teachers it's just a highlight of

    my day when I get to work with teachers

    and run a professional development and

    help them become better at their job or

    just help them feel better about

    themselves and the job they're doing so

    you know so much respect to those people

    and you know thank you where my people

    go to connect with you and the

    organizations that you work with I work

    at the teaching systems lab as MIT as I

    said and you can find it at

    tsl.mit.edu I hope you enjoyed that

    conversation with Josh I know I

    certainly did if you be so kind please

    consider sharing this with somebody else

    even it's just sending a text to

    somebody saying hey you should check out

    this episode or sharing it on social

    media it just helps more people find

    this podcast as well as the free

    computer science education resources on

    my website and all the drumming and

    gaming stuff that I share on there as

    well thank you so much for listening

    stay tuned for another episode next week

    until then I hope you're all staying

    safe and are having a wonderful week

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