Computational Literacies with Michael Horn
In this interview with Michael Horn, we discuss computational literacies vs computational thinking, power in literacy, cultural imperialism, the impact of programming language on identity, the intersections of music and CS, and so much more.
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Are you curious about what the
difference is between computational
literacies and computational thinking or
how literacy and cultural imperialism
relate to power in education or maybe
you want to hear a discussion on how
programming languages might actually
impact identity and identity development
or simply hear two people nerd out on
the intersections of music and computer
science if any of those topics are more
interest to you make sure you stick
around for this interview with Michael
Horn and if you want to find more
interviews like this make sure you visit
jaredelary.com where there are hundreds
of more podcast episodes as well as a
ton of free computer science education
resources but before you go diving into
all that we will begin this episode with
an introduction by Michael everyone my
name is Mike I'm a professor at
Northwestern University in the Chicago
area and I have this weird joint
appointment in computer science and in
our school of education and a learning
Sciences program which means that I'm
kind of kind of straddling two two
different worlds and thinking about
problems not quite from a CS perspective
and not quite from a education
perspective and trying to do a little
bit of both recently my work has really
been kind of at the intersection of the
creation of digital music and python
coding and sort of thinking about all of
the kind of educational affordances that
fall out of that intersection so that's
what a lot of my students and I have
been kind of thinking about recently I'm
really curious none of my professors
ever had the Dual appointment does that
mean dual amount of work like double the
amount that you have to do
if you do it right it means that you can
kind of get away with sort of saying oh
I'm doing you know I'm doing service
work for school of education so I can't
I don't have much extra bandwidth right
now and and actually you know my people
in charge of me like Deans and stuff
have been really great and really
supportive in terms of making that work
can you tell me the story of how you got
interested in designing Innovative
learning experiences I kind of fell in
love with Computer Sciences like a
seventh grader a long time ago on on
like Apple TVs but it was kind of like
one of those things where you know when
you you you discover something you're
like whoa this is this is like I just
didn't realize that I was really really
excited about this stuff you know and I
just love tinkering I had no idea what I
was doing so a lot of it was just
self-taught kind of and you know so I
went college did computer science I
didn't was doing a lot of teaching
assistant work as an undergrad the when
I graduated I kind of was like I want to
go into educational technology as a
career worked for a startup company
doing like kind of online curriculum
products and sort of adventure learning
kinds of things and that was great for a
couple years but then I was realizing
like we're building curriculum products
we're building products for teachers but
our sales team is selling to districts
at best and States at worst right like
so it's like we're going to sell to the
entire state of Texas our curriculum
product and I'm like you know what I've
since I've been at this company I've
never seen the inside of a classroom
like I've never seen a teacher actually
using anything that we're doing and that
got me you know more and more I was like
man I I just feel like I'm missing you
know something so that was kind of the
impetus to go back to grad school but
for the GRE got rejected from like 20
places and you know eventually ended up
at Tufts University where it did did a
dissertation and that was kind of like a
really fun place to be at that time and
kind of was just like gotten I don't
know just like it was like you know
things started to click really was
interested in computational literacy as
a kind of direction for how can we use
human computer interaction design as a
tool for advancing computational
literacy and and that was kind of how
that got started so you mentioned
computational literacy what does that
mean to you I think computational
literacy is a very important term and
it's really misunderstood and I'm going
to go into a little detail here because
I think I think it's actually really
important but so you know the
conversation has really been about
computational thinking okay that term
thinking and that's where a lot of the
Energy's been and I sort of think of
computational literacy as a much broader
conceptualization of computational
thinking it sort of encompasses
computational thinking but so the
reasons are like a literacy is something
that is developmental it involves
culture it involves ways of thinking and
it involves identity like these are the
the pieces that are really interesting
for me so I can like like a quick
example you know the song uh five little
ducks went out to play okay five little
ducks went out to play over the hills
and far away mama duck called quack
quack quack quack and only four little
ducks came back and then the song
repeats the next time you go through the
song there's three ducks and two ducks
and then one duck and then like no ducks
come back and the mom's really sad and
then you sing the verse one more time
and then all the ducks come back but I
sing that song to little kids like or my
my sons and daughters right and like why
am I singing that song and this is like
an example of a culturally embedded
literacy activity so from like our
earliest ages like adults and children
like really sort of cultural forms of
like songs and letters and you know
refrigerator magnet letters like we are
building literacy reading storybooks
right like all of these things like are
building literacy building numeracy if
you come from a musical family your
interactions with your parents are
probably very like musical in nature
like you probably have a lot of musical
memories with I don't know about you in
particular but like that sort of music
as a literacy is sort of very sort of
much culturally invade like sure schools
have a part to play but there's like
literacy takes a long time to develop it
has profound implications for our
identity so we become like a literate
person and and like that's part of our
identity and once we are once we have
literacy it shapes the way we think in
profound ways it shapes the kind of
ideas we have it shapes the language
that we use to think about ideas when
we're thinking about computational
thinking I think we think of things like
power of code right it's sort of like or
like you have to have a CS graduation
requirement to get out of a Chicago
public high school right and when I
think about literacy I think about a
much much longer trajectory and and
Direction and so like a lot of these
ideas for me are shaped by uh people
like Andy desessa and um and that VR2
Scholars that I've been you know reading
a lot of of influence my thinking there
so when when I'm thinking about
computation as a literacy I think about
it in those terms like it's not just a
one and done hour of code kind of thing
it it's something that happens over a
long period of time that I don't think
it's culturally embedded right now and
I'm really curious about like how do we
get to the like sort of the five little
ducks song version of computational
literacy we'll discuss claimer I'm not a
huge fan of computational thinking and
the way that it's presented one there's
no unified definition of it nobody knows
what they're talking about when they say
computational thinking because everybody
assumes their own other completely
different definition of it the first
time that I was really introduced to the
idea of computational literacy
literacies was in a paper is by kaffayan
Proctor so it's called a revaluation of
computational thinking K-12 education
moving toward computational literacies
and that's episode 111 I actually
unpacked that in this podcast and I
really enjoyed the way that they
described it in terms of it like being
like a thing that you do it's much more
active and I really appreciate your
description of literacy taking a long
period of time is not just a one and
done I often see a lot of districts when
they engage in computational thinking in
particular they they look at it and go
all right well I checked off that I just
did pattern recognition I won't need to
do that until next semester and it's
like right no like right if if this is
actually conceived of as a literacy or
even a skill like if I'm I'm very slowly
learning Japanese and if I spent an hour
one semester or one year trying to learn
Japanese would I ever be able to learn
how to read write speak Japanese right
no never it's like not gonna happen
never and so yeah I really like your
your framing of computational literacies
but I'm curious like what do you wish
more Educators understood about your
framing of computation literacies that's
a great question and I and I should also
say like you know I don't think that
becoming computationally literate is as
difficult as say learning Japanese right
like I think that it's a Andy just says
that calls it like a technical literacy
which is something like maybe like an
app like algebra is like another example
that he really likes to hold up as a
technical literacy it's something that
once you kind of learn algebra and you
can start thinking in these ways like
like I think a lot of people have the
experience of doing algebra and they and
it sort of felt like wow that really
actually changed the way I think about a
lot of things I have to say like I'm
actually a big fan of a lot of the
direction that people who are designing
the high school curriculum are thinking
about or even even the KA curriculum are
really thinking about you know this ads
a long game as as something that can be
integrated meaningfully with other
subjects and I think that that's coming
along slowly but you know I think that
would be my kind of biggest takeaway for
for me is like oh being literate means
that I can engage in other kinds of
things using that language as a tool
right so so it becomes a for me it
becomes a tool to think about music or
it becomes a tool to think about like
for Andy to Sessa it's a tool to think
about physics or or there's a really
brilliant paper by Ruth sharence this is
an older paper but it's kind of like
it's sort of like asking this really
cool what-if question like what if we
took out equations out of learning
physics and the intro physics class at
an undergraduate level and instead used
coding what would the implications of
that be and you know he really kind of
takes a deep dive into that world and
it's not like a direct actionable thing
but it's just more of a shift and
vantage point and like kind of how we
think about the role of coding and
computation and in its relationship to
other subjects and other ways of pain
and that we don't have to like do it all
like it's okay you know we do it like I
don't mind doing an hour code right like
it is a it's an introduction it like and
I don't have to like accomplish the
whole field but you know I do think
you're right like it does help address
this kind of like check mark mentality
that like oh we did we did this topic so
we're done right you know and and that's
it yeah and the the framing of you
mentioned using it as a tool a literacy
involves not just reading but also
writing so not just using but also
creating and so that idea is a very key
distinction from what I see people
describing as computational thinking
where it's just like oh you're thinking
about something you might be solving a
problem but you might not be you might
not be creating things you might not be
creating or reading or doing anything
you're just thinking but literacies
might involve more than that right
totally so here's here's the other
pieces like I don't think actually come
reputational literacy well like you know
when I when I went through I became a
professional software engineer and for
me that like I do think I had sort of a
literacy and computation but I don't
think it's fully there yet like we don't
have we're getting there but we don't
have like say genres of computational
literacy we're not using computational
literacy to to communicate the cool
thing is like once you start thinking
about things as literacy it's all sorts
of implications start to fall out of
that yeah one of my favorite is um like
Annette V she has this this wonderful
book from 2017 and she talks about
medieval France as a literate Society
like they if you wanted to buy land in
medieval France if you wanted to get
married if you wanted to you know pay
your taxes you had to have some sort of
written document okay so like the
society was dependent on reading and
writing documents but the portion of
literate people in that Society was very
low you had a literature Society or a
society that was dependent on literacy
and popular relation that is largely
illiterate and what she sort of says
there is like then you can see how
literacy is connected to the power in
that society and so I think that
reflection on modern day Society is
really interesting because if you think
about like we like it's hard to sort of
dispute that computation is a literacy
of power in society right now right like
everything we do in some ways depends on
software that somebody wrote but the
proportion of the population is like
computational litter is like super small
like that that analogy is really
interesting it has limitations like it's
not a Perfect Analogy but I think you
know those are the kinds of things that
you start to wonder about when you think
of computation as literacy yeah my mind
is is spinning right now like the idea
of thinking of what would different
genres be of computational literacy like
that is has really got me thinking but
even what you're just talking about like
yeah there's a lot of power if you are
literate and are able to use this form
of literacy in society and what is I
find kind of fascinating is that there
are people in hour like Congress who are
not literate in this and they are in a
position of power but they don't have
this kind of power so it's it's
fascinating scene in their The Tick-Tock
ban discussions yeah and they have no
clue what they're talking about yeah
yeah like does tick tock connect to
Wi-Fi yeah yes
like I don't understand so the other
really cool thing that a netbeat does
this book really changed my thinking in
so many ways she's like the problem is
like if I say I am computationally
literally like do you do you think of
yourself as computationally literate
yeah it depends on how you think of
computational literacy but yeah I mean
like there's the using the tools like
computers there's the like there's a
Continuum of it there's also being able
to program it like I can go from like
one end to the other and back and forth
Etc so in different ways I am literate
so like if you had to write a python
script pull down some data like metadata
on like say you know I don't know
whatever you're interested in like you
could probably figure out how to do that
yeah like I haven't used python but
because I have used like C plus plus
Swift Java JavaScript Etc like I can
transfer the syntax over and go okay I
can figure this out this is what I would
need to do yeah one of my problems with
computational literacy is that it's also
very imprecise in the same way that
computational thinking is and like that
that kind of bugs me but one of the
things that anit V did that that you
know she's like basically when we start
calling ourselves computationally
literate we have just inadvertently
called a whole bunch of people
computationally illiterate and to call
someone illiterate is attaches stigma to
that person and so there's like a moral
like so once education system like
here's where the danger comes in it's
like an education system says okay we're
gonna we're gonna call everything
computational literacy well then it's
sort of like there you start to attach
these moral value judgments to people
who don't have that like literacy like
to call somebody illiterate is a moral
judgment on them in many ways even if we
don't intend it that way like I think
yeah so then you start to think about
well hey like we're talking about
literacy like you have to remember that
like as much as literacy has been like a
tool of empowerment for people it has
been a tool of Oppression in exactly as
much you know so like who gets to decide
what counts as literacy who do we who
gets access to the literacy who gets
denied whose forms of literacy are
repressed or marginalized you know
literacy can be a tool of
disenfranchisement so it's like in the
research we're doing we're thinking
about a lot of those like kind of those
tensions I think are really really
everywhere when she when she starts to
think about it yeah you know let's let's
double click on that like I'm happy to
dive into that like I've done podcast
episodes we've unpacked like Bordeaux in
relation to like cultural capital in
education and just learning in general
like I've interviewed Kimberly Scott and
we've talked about this like Joyce
McCall's talked about it like most of
these discussions have been around race
in particular but like happy to talk
about just like Equity at large like I
think it's very important to discuss
that so if we can talk about how does
computational relate to that or even
just equity in in relation to the Cs
education
Etc like let's do it I have a PhD
student in Isaiah Wallace who's who's
about to graduate so he should be he
should be Dr Wallace in about a month or
two here it all goes well and he's
really been thinking hard about this you
know this particular issue he initially
started out as an electrical engineer
and then switched over to computer
science and then really sort of fell
into this you know sort of world of
Computer Science Education although I
think he wouldn't call himself in that
realm because he really wants to push
Beyond formal education and so he and he
came up as a street dancer in
Philadelphia so like he was immersed in
a community of people where you know
they had competitions they had mentoring
structures there was like it was a real
community of practice of people who
learned how to do how to engage in dance
and so he's really been trying to think
about applying that kind of experience
to out of school computer science and
sort of computational literacy I'll be
serving I don't know if you're familiar
with it okay so what it is it's been
going on forever it's been going on
since the 70s they they survey colleges
and universities in North America so
they'll like just write to all of the
department heads of all computer science
Computer Engineering departments in
Canada the United States just feel like
tell us about who's graduating who's
getting degrees who's entering PHD
programs who's leaving PHD programs and
it's like kind of depressing to go back
and look at the historical data and how
things have changed in computer science
as a field over 40 years right and you
see very very slow but steady
progression of women in the field
there's still very much under
representation but there's been slow and
steady progress so at a minute you'll be
like okay at least I'm seeing seeing
growth I'm seeing change if you look at
black students who enter PHD programs
like CMC energy Master's programs
undergraduate degree programs it has
been flat or for pretty much since the
super depressing thing but I also think
sort of super indicative of the way the
cultural nature of the field right now
as it is
um and so Isaiah is really thinking
about like why aren't we seeing this
change and reflecting on his own
experience as a black man in the field
of computer science and like he would be
actually a really fascinating person if
you want to have a really fascinating
podcast like a chat with Isaiah about
this but yeah he's been you know kind of
thinking about like okay I I didn't
learn dance in a school I learned it in
sort of like in my own cultural context
in a sort of almost like an underground
community of dancers and he's like
saying look why can't we have that in
computer science like why can't like he
had this term he called Street coding
like why can't we have people who are
just out on you know like using code for
self-expression like music or dance or
poetry like why is it and that if you if
you're not paying attention to culture
and processes of enculturation that fall
outside of formal academic settings
you're you're missing the the point
right and and and this goes back to the
literacy thing like I think that there's
a certain degree of enculturation that
happens for people who that you know
that parents and children engage in that
prepares them for academic degree
programs like that's just the way it is
and yeah so his his focus is like how do
we start to imagine sort of underground
competing cultures that are for him
located in like sort of the Black
American experience but I think you
could imagine this in in lots of
different contexts and how do you
encourage and grow that kind of thing
that's completely outside of formal
School settings and so he's really
thinking about the long game and kind of
thinking about computational
acculturation in the unpacking
scholarship episodes I like to share
like lingering questions and thoughts at
the end of the episode like here's
something that just kind of popped into
my head while reading this I forget
which paper it was but one of them I was
wondering out loud at what point is it a
form of like I don't know
epistemological or ontological or
axiological colonization so colonizing
ways of knowing being valuing Etc when
we look at some of the data and so the
thing that like really just randomly
popped in my head one day was well there
likely are not a lot of Amish people who
are getting degrees in computer science
if we are trying to increase that
percentage is that then a form of
colonization in terms of changing the
ways of being and valuing Etc and at
what point does that happen with other
cultures other than that a very extreme
example right there yeah and yeah so
some of that has been talked about with
like well why are certain genders in
fields and not in others Etc and and
yeah I don't know that's just kind of me
thinking out loud like it's a
fascinating there's so many different
intersectional things and cultural
things to consider like when it comes to
any kind of data like that totally and
so and yeah this is going back to Andy
de Sessa like he was really upset with
the term computational thinking part of
the reason was he felt that and and that
V talks about this too is that like we
tend to equate computational literacy
with computer science as a field and he
calls this kind of like a culture
imperialism where computer science it's
a scientific discipline it values it's
an engineering discipline it values
efficiency and correctness and writing
neat and tidy comments and and you know
being all these things that go along
with kind of scientific disciplines and
but you know that's not what I was
that's not why I fell in love with
coding right like I fell in love with
coding for the craft of it or the
creative part of it like and it kind of
this idea of like well do we if we
started to have different genres of
computational literacy then this kind of
your point about like okay well who gets
to own who gets to decide and are we
just like inviting you know are we
trying to like we're trying to invite
other people into our dominant culture
as opposed to saying like maybe maybe we
should be open to people you know
Reinventing computational literacy ideas
on their own terms and so we've we've
also been kind of playing around with
ideas of subversive literacy so if you
like like I tend to think of like the
birth of hip-hop is kind of like a
subversion of dominant forms of literacy
dominant musical paradigms dominant
paradigms of dance it was sort of
rejecting the act like the academy and
saying like you know what we're just
gonna reinvent this on our own terms
right and I think you look at looking
Jazz you look at Blues like a lot of the
sort of musical genres that grew out of
the Black American Experience I think
that those are really really interesting
examples of subversions of literacy to
sort of reclaim power reclaim identity
and like what would a subversion of
computational literacy look like that
sort of rejects the sort of the the
cultural imperialism of like computer
science it is
terminology but so I think your your
example like that's what it makes me
think about yeah that's interesting I I
really like that I'm kind of curious
what your genre of computer science was
that got you interested in it so like
for myself it would be like game
development like that was something that
I was interested in yeah I mean I I I'm
very old you know I learned on an Apple
III like in basic and but it was the
kind of thing where nobody was telling
me what was good bad code like it was
just and and like I wanted to recreate
and then it was like turbo Pascal like
I'm really old and but he's like I
wanted to make video games like my
parents didn't have a lot of money we
didn't have like you know video game
muscle in our house so it's like I want
to make my own version of these games
and then the code was terrible like it
was just awful right like but I didn't
know any better and no one was telling
me like no that's wrong you know and I
would spend four hours and hours and
hours into that for those reasons yeah I
say that because I I think it's
important to think of context in the
classroom and like how you can explore
different interests so like you're
mentioning like genres when I was in the
K8 coding classes that I taught there
were kids who really wanted to make
games there were some kids who really
wanted to make stories there are others
who wanted to make music or art and
animation like having those different
genres as ways to express oneself or
explore one's interest it was a huge
part of what I tried to focus on in the
classroom and in the curriculum that I
developed in National development Etc
and to be honest like that's the thing
I've been really you know that really
encourages me about the current state of
Cs education is that I do think that the
tendency has been to I'm not going to
teach you like the apcs curriculum and
force you to learn how to you know write
Haskell or python or whatever it's been
about highlighting the ways in which
coding can be used in Creative domains
and on lots of different creative
domains from video games to robotics to
to music to art to you know yeah it's
been nice like when I was in high school
it was the very first year in my junior
year that they offered apcs and it was
when it was C plus plus and until that I
had nothing so to see that
kindergarteners now have an option in
some districts from kindergarten all the
way through 12th grade so for 13 years
they can explore different platforms
different languages Etc when they get
into high school they could go into app
development game development they could
do like CS discoveries uh apcs all sorts
of different ideas it's it's nice having
many different Pathways for people to
explore and I think like going back to
the Equity discussion like um to be
clear I'm definitely an advocate for
representation Etc but I also am like
cautious with like the colonization side
of things but the fact that we have
these different paths for people to take
like I want to make something that's fun
versus I want to make something that
helps people the fact that those two
different branches might exist within
the same class or in different classes I
think is fantastic it's really fantastic
yeah I completely agree and it's
unfortunate that you had to learn C plus
as your first language that's a separate
conversation okay well let's get nerdy
for a second so one of the the thoughts
that I had is so the the kids that I
work with from fourth grade through
eighth grade some of them chose to work
with Ruby as their language in Sonic
play and they really enjoyed creating
with that but one of the the questions
that I kind of had that I never really
got an answer for was how are they going
to feel when they transfer from a higher
level language to a lower level language
versus going from lower to higher
because for myself
having to learn the Sim syntax nightmare
that was C plus plus it made it so when
I got to like something like Ruby I was
like wow this is super easy everything
this is like super simple yeah yeah but
going the other direction I wonder if it
would be even more confusing yeah this
is one where I feel like people like
David weintrop are really kind of trying
to push to to really understand Marcus
style too I think is is thinking a lot
about like is it the language is it the
applications like where do we want to be
spending our time also in formal
education settings like if the point is
not CS for its own sake but CS or
something else that we're doing like do
you really want to you really want to
spend all your time learning you know
syntax of even even like a python-like
language right yeah so Mark was on
episode 86 and Andrea steffic was on
episode 27 and what was fascinating
about that conversation with Andreas is
he mentioned a a study that they did
where they used a placebo language that
had random characters to see if a
programming language did better or worse
than the placebo and some of them did
worse just like random collection of
characters for like a for Looper for
whatever that's no good
really funny I don't know the answer to
this and like I thought a little bit
about it it hasn't really been my main
kind of like emphasis well and Marcus
style might disagree with me here but I
worry a little bit about like that the
language is condescend to kids as they
get older when when it's kind of drag
and drop a little bit that if we're
teaching high school students scratch
and I want to be cautious here because
like I don't have the data like so that
this is like this is just me like
wondering we've been working with python
with fifth grade students for a while
now and it and it works you know some
some kids are still learning how to type
some kids don't know how to copy paste
you know so there are real it's much
slower for them but there are lots of
fifth graders who you know are flying
right and they're ready you know so and
they've been doing scratch or Tinker or
code.org for years now and they're ready
but this is kind of like the the
literacy of his identity sort of thing
where it's like there are communities
where it's sort of like the things that
look really Technical and complex is
like part of the identity experience
that like if you like audio Engineers I
think are you know they've got their you
know their Ableton Live you know pause
up and there's like that's what I'm
recording on 10 billion LEDs flashing
you know like cables everywhere like and
and that's kind of like a badge of honor
like it is you know to be taken
seriously as an audio engineer you sort
of give off this like and the truth is
you probably don't need all that visual
complexity like to do a good job with it
right so I I kind of wonder about the
the identity related aspects of that I
think we we tend to want to not
intimidate students with languages that
feel like you know too Technical and
complex but I there I think there's a
flip side in that I think some students
really want to have that sort of that
visual image it's like it's all like
about appearances but I think in some
ways like appearances and identity you
know like it's it's very important right
like that the tools that I use are part
of my identity and so anyway those are
things I wonder about I don't have any
answers all right that's a great
wonderment I mean especially in Middle
school and high school there's
insecurity is something that you really
have to consider when working with kids
because they don't want to be perceived
as uncool or lesser than their peers or
the groups they want to associate with
right so if they're using a language
that they might consider like a quote
baby language like a block based right
they might have lower social status than
if they're using something that is
considered to be more professional
unless of a baby language right even
though it might be able to do the same
thing or be easier there is that like
social status involved with it so I
think that's an important thing to
consider yeah which again is like why I
focus on having multiple platforms
multiple languages you pick which one
you want and it's really easy really
really easy I think to genderize
students to sort of say like you know
girls are not going to like be Ableton
Live kind of experience that you know
they want you know like we don't it's
not that explicit or overt but there are
much more subtle ways in which we acted
I think you know genderize the
experience racialize the experience I
think we're studying languages from a
very a cognitive perspective like what
is how does this help us learn what's
the right trajectory you know like to
sort of make the learning curve as
smooth as possible as opposed to
thinking about like languages from an
identity perspective and in a you know
sort of an affective perspective how do
I feel like how does this how do I
present when I'm sort of seeing you know
coding with this language that's
interesting does that inform your work
with what you've done with tune pads yes
very much like we made a lot of
aesthetic decisions in tune pad where
we're trying to thread a needle between
we want something that's very easy to
learn but we wanted to have the
appearance uh you know like it kind of
has an appearance of a professional
music production environment and it you
know like choosing like what color
scheme do you use for your IDE or like
what what does your text editor look
like yeah does it have the dark
background you know with the candy
coated color syntax or does it have you
know a light background and you know we
we put a lot of like those kinds of
decisions I think are really important
and we to be honest like we don't have
good data behind like whether that's
sort of the right decisions or not so
it's kind of it's really hard to study
that but maybe that's something we
should study
there is an aesthetic that we wanted to
go around coding you know in relation to
music that we were trying to pursue and
then the other side of that is like we
want it to be easy easy enough to learn
so that people aren't completely thrown
off guard because there's like these two
literacies that we're trying to pursue
simultaneously like there's the
computational literacy which is really
Technical and difficult musical literacy
which is really Technical and difficult
and we're asking people to do both at
the same time right so one way to think
about it is like well that's going to be
twice as hard it's just teaching music
on its own or coding on its own and so
kind of our argument is like it might
seem like it's twice as hard but we
actually like teaching them together
makes both easier so we actually at
least that's the sort of hypothesis that
we're running with that coding gives you
a really interesting language to think
about music and the algorithmic nature
of music and the mathematical nature of
music and structural nature of music and
it breaks through like hundreds and
hundreds of years of like really
confusing music terminology at least if
you're looking at like Western tradition
events like western music notation is
screwed up it's just like a disaster
right like it's German Italian French
English all mangled together with these
like weird redundant terminology like
why is C Sharp the same thing as like B
flat and like you know and and the chord
names like are a disaster you know like
sorry I I don't want to attend any music
people out there but it's really it's
really I mean it's really awful and so
code is this like kind of really cool
well okay this is my just opinions right
like like it feels like a
restructuration of of music terminology
it's a new way to think about music and
then sort of like music really is like a
domain where like the cool Parts about
what you can do with code start to shine
through in like really interesting ways
at least at least that's what we're
going for let's take a step back for a
second if you were in an elevator and
you're introducing yourself and you're
like oh I work on this thing called tune
pad and they're like oh what is Tim pad
I've never heard of it what would your
response be for that is a is a free
online platform that you can use to
create digital music using python coding
language as like programming language as
the tool that you create digital music
with we use it to teach kids about music
and music theory but but oftentimes we
sell that as teaching python coding
because that's what people care about
right now just unfortunate now that
we've established some context because I
realize I have a context because I've
like looked at the website and whatnot
but somebody who's like new might not
might be like I've never heard of this
what is this going back to your point
about like the the problems with Western
staff notation it is very limited on the
data that it actually conveys to a
performer the performer has to be able
to expand upon the notes not just
looking at the Dynamics but also looking
at Timbre thinking about it in relation
to the acoustic environment in which
you're performing in the audience you're
working with oh there's so many factors
like that has been addressed to an
extent by digital audio workstations
Daws like you mentioned Ableton and live
garage bands are very like user-friendly
one Etc where you have this granular
control as a producer composer Etc to be
able to shape the timbre the acoustic
characteristics of the sound that's
something you can't get by just putting
a note on a staff so there's a lot of
data missing from there when you add in
that layer of code from myself it
expands some opportunities that you
would not have just performing with an
acoustic instrument in particular
something called aliatoric music so like
aliatoric Music is More Chance based so
like myself I wrote out a drum kit that
plays an infinite number of drum grooves
and fills and I don't know what it's
going to sound like until I get another
seed and then it'll just play Forever
that is like that integration of music
and CS well it's the term aliatoric oh
that's really cool yeah so like an
example is like roll a dice and then
that'll tell you what chord to play kind
of a thing it's a whole genre that's
been going on for quite some time but
it's fascinating but that connection of
Cs and music like I really enjoy
exploring those intersections where you
can't have one without the other like I
mentioned before we started recording
like my dissertation like chiptunes Etc
I think that intersection is fascinating
can I do a little musical demo that that
I think is exactly what what I really
like one of the dimensions of like you
know coding that comes through let me
try playing like a sampling
[Music]
foreign
[Music]
this is like very like just we're
playing four chords right like there's
no there's no Randomness or you know but
but even like how you describe chords I
think is actually kind of interesting
yeah when you start to describe chords
in mathematical like relationships and
and you know if it's a it's a if it's a
major Triad it has exactly the same
numerical pattern no matter what the
root note is and like that's a really
different way of thinking about chords
and I think we're used to but in this
one like there's like just sort of a
basic sort of Bad Bunny and started
inspired beat where you have just like a
rhythmic pattern that uses a drum
machine which is kind of like the
signature Style
okay so that's like your your sort of
main beat but then like oh and then sort
of sort of I think another sort of Bad
Bunny signature style is like to kind of
have like sort of crap sounding hi-hats
that kind of layer in on top of that so
like
so those are your like your hi-hats and
that's just a bunch of python for loops
and you can't see it but like you know
the kind of breaking down hi-hat
patterns is like that is an algorithmic
structure in the music and so we don't
usually think about it that way but like
it's a really really good example of
like why you might want for loops and
like the flexibility that for Loops give
you in terms of changing the duration of
nodes the number of nodes and the pitch
of notes and it's really easy to
experiment with different patterns you
know and much of the way that like I
think modern Daws let you do but it's
kind of like a cool language to do that
with but then what you were talking
about with Elliot Twerk Music like this
using Randomness to just sort of say
like I want to randomly sprinkle in
you know some some claps into that main
beat pattern and you play all three of
those together probably again just play
the whole thing together and like
[Music]
and you know it's that kind of playing
with Randomness that like layers in with
sort of like well-established beat
patterns it's like really easy to
express in a length and like a language
like Python and it's really hard to
express with sheet music right so thank
you for indulging that demo I'm always
happy to talk about music and CS so how
do you envision students and teachers
using that like CS teachers versus like
music educators yeah so we've had very
little success getting music educators
to confine to this a lot of them are uh
a bit uh old in their ways in their
thinking we just it was like just the
other day we were working in an art
classroom and the art teacher is like oh
you should be at our music teacher and
she brought us over and introduced us to
the music teacher and like that was the
first time I really like clicked with a
music teacher in a music classroom and
we were like okay this is an exciting
you know sort of mashup of these two
worlds but I think it's been it's been
really really hard to get to get music
teachers to work with us I can
understand why like I think I'm makes
sense what what are their rationales for
it I mean I I think this is true of Any
teacher that like their jobs are really
really hard and if you're a music
teacher you're probably you know working
with hundreds of kids on a given day I
mean you know this better than I do I'm
sure and so it's like even like
remembering kids names and getting them
to like engage it's like you your your
challenges are substantial and you're
trying to build a love of music you know
for kids and like that is your priority
and rightfully so right like so if
somebody's like you know we could do
python coding and music and it's like uh
like I don't know who you are I don't
trust you I don't I don't see the value
in this beyond what we're already doing
like these are real instruments I mean I
think that there's something to be said
for like playing real instruments and
like you know exploring the real Timber
of like you know percussion or whatever
it is that you're learning so I think
it's it's a really hard sell what about
music technology teachers like there's
not as many of them but yeah because
they might be teaching with GarageBand
or Pro Tools or whatever yeah and a lot
of them are and I think it's been kind
of it is kind of like Trust issues like
I think if a colleague says oh you have
to check out this thing like oh so I
should shout out your sketch here like
and Sonic pyre the the two other big
players kind of in this so we we got
started in collaboration with your
sketch so it's like this was like kind
of meant to be an extension of the ear
sketch ecosystem and Sonic Pi was very
much an inspiration for us you know we
we saw some limitations of Sonic pie but
yeah I think if it if a Polly comes to
you and says oh hey like you're using
GarageBand have you seen this thing
called tune pad and you know here's all
this curriculum and you should try it
out like I think that that you trust
your colleague more than a researcher is
like saying do you want to try out my
experimental thing you know and so I
think some of it is just a matter of
like I'm an exposure and like if if
people see the platform and they like it
and and like that's our goal is that it
spreads by word of mouth and that people
get excited about it but you know it's I
think it's still I don't know if this is
going to work right like we we've had a
lot of success with it we enjoy teaching
it like we've seen students react to it
but none of these platforms are perfect
and you know does This Server real need
for real teachers and real students is
like I think that's that's the real
question and I don't you know I don't
pretend to know the answer I do think
that there has been a bit of a history
with the Arts in general and other
domains kind of coming in as colonizers
and I'm not saying that that's what's
happening but there have been studies
even when it comes to the intersection
of music and CS where like the explicit
goal and the abstract is the purpose of
this is to increase enrollment numbers
in computer science courses totally so
we're going to do this thing yeah and so
there there is that skepticism even for
those who are like really into music
technology and like can see the value in
it it can come across as subservient
depending on how things are framed but I
do like your point that like if it's
introduced from a colleague that might
be less scary than like that history of
Outsider coming in as researcher trying
to show me what to do exactly right and
I think there's a version of this
narrative that I don't spouse which is
like we want to get more kids into
computer science and the way we do that
is you know Dress It Up in something fun
like music or video games and that way
they'll you know get excited about
computer science because we're kind of
almost like tricking them into the it's
the sort of classic chocolate covered
broccoli
you know narrative which you know I
definitely am not don't agree with um
and I've really been the more I get into
this the more I'm thinking like this is
a really interesting way to think about
music education so music education right
like I learned music I learned how to
play Viola starting in middle school I
learned by the Suzuki method and it was
torture right like it was like play
Twinkle Twinkle Little Star until your
fingers to lead literally yeah and and I
don't mean that that's like all music
education and I don't even think it's
all Suzuki method applications but the
way that Suzuki method was applied in my
case was just wrote practice right and I
never never really got an appreciation
for how music works I never got to
appreciate music as a literature like I
could sort of think about it have my own
ideas and reaction to a piece of music
it was just like shut up and play
Madison dorski like ten thousand times
because we're performing it at the end
of the you know the end of the quarter I
never made any of my own music with that
instrument that's an important point for
people to consider like for those who
have not been in a music class as a
student or as a teacher like there's an
assumption oh well you're creating music
it's like no you're recreating somebody
else's music that they wrote and you are
performing it the exact same way as
everyone else there's very little
expressiveness in those kinds of classes
yeah and that's not how we teach reading
now right like there is some of that
like you know there is some of it like
you're just practicing letter shapes and
sounds right but there's also like you
choose the books that are interesting to
you yeah right because we want to build
people who are in love with reading
right I don't know that in all cases
we're doing that with music education
and I think GarageBand does this to some
extent too right like it's like a
letting letting kids create music
instead of just regurgitating music but
like what what I what's hard about
GarageBand is like it doesn't doesn't
give you a language for thinking about
music theory it just sort of lets you
you can either play an instrument and
you feel free to disagree with me like
or push back here like you know it gives
me these these fancy musical instruments
that like arpeggiate for me or play in a
certain key or like you know like I can
play chords automatically without having
to think about it and I can combine
samples from different genres and like
play around with different instruments
but I'm not sure it's sort of giving me
a language for thinking about music
theory like how music works and this is
where I'm wondering about like can code
kind of be a language that lets us think
about music theory and I don't mean like
the again like the really inaccessible
version of Music Theory just like kind
of some of the basics of music to kind
of elaborate on what you're talking
about for people who are not familiar
with it like I've done a lot of Music
Theory more than I'd like and like my
best friend has like a PhD in
composition and the way that he talks
about music theory is that it's it was
designed to analyze the end product and
was not actually used to create that
product so music theory is not
necessarily helpful for composing music
as much as it is for understanding a way
of looking at how it sounds the way that
it does so it's more descriptive than it
is a framework for creating you can use
certain aspects as a framework but it's
it's more describing like if you do a
shankarian analysis it's something that
you'll like often learn in grad school
that is a type of music theory where it
talks about tension and release in music
and how do the chord structures kind of
all relate to this like big building
point and then have a climax and then
some kind of release Etc and it's a
fascinating way of studying it but it
really does nothing to make me a better
composer and it's not how I actually
think when I do it so that it is that
weird kind of is this useful for
creating or is this useful for listening
and understanding after the fact that's
super fascinating I hadn't heard that
before like don't scales and keys and
diatonic chords like give you a
framework for creation of Music those
are more of like the letters and the
words than it is like how the paragraphs
work together like it's it's very
rudimentary tools that you will use and
it's helpful but it doesn't really
encapsulate everything that goes on like
when I write music whether it's like
percussive music that is not related to
Melody Harmony Etc or it is ETC
interesting yeah that's super
fascinating I I hadn't heard that
perspective before and and it kind of
does make a lot of sense of sort of like
literary criticism as a tool for
understanding and taking literature
apart but not the act of writing
literature and like experiencing a
really good novel right yeah like we're
not we're very far away from where we
want to be but you know like we
introduced cord pretty early on and sort
of like and as like we shy away from a
lot of the terminology and we're not
teaching people how to like about keys
and that sort of thing but we are saying
like here are seven chords set and
here's the formula for making those
chords play around with the chords find
ones that sound good together to you yep
and then here's how you can put them
into a piece of music and let you know
then then it's like okay once you have
your chords here's how you can create an
arpeggio right like and we we go pretty
early on with that that kind of approach
to sort of scaffold up the creation of
pieces I I you know I don't know how
well it works yet but that's that's been
kind of our approach yeah I I took a
class during my Master's that was
learning how to compose in the style of
different composers over the course of
the last couple hundred years and what's
interesting is we use music theory to
analyze basically their patterns of
musical discourse and to try and figure
out if R to write in the style of
Schubert my chord structure might be
like this but if I were to write in the
style of Beethoven it would be like this
instead yes and then it was the
variations from that framework to go but
Schubert would have had this kind of
embellishment that is atypical than what
Beethoven would have done Etc so it's
helpful for figuring that out yeah
that's really interesting yeah well I'm
glad you think so but I'm a nerd when it
comes to that
I think a big emphasis in music
education oftentimes is to start with
Melody first and we're very much like
start with beat first start with rhythm
start with percussion first yes thank
you because like that's where the soul
is yeah right then either do bass or
Harmony second right like so and only at
the very end do you think about Melody
and I think that that reflects sort of
broader Trends in music right now as it
like kind of de-emphasizing Melody yeah
so it's like more consistent with a lot
of a lot of the music that kids are
familiar with and also because it's like
harder to code Melody than it is to code
like say a chord progression but also
because like a melody I think often I
mean I know people start with Melody a
lot of composition but to me like a
melody kind of emerges out of that that
intersection of the chords and the the
beat that you're using and then the
melody can kind of emerge out of that
and you know anyway that's that's kind
of like the direction that we're we're
thinking about this yeah every
composition I've done has been different
in terms of sometimes I might start with
one or another or or like just piecemeal
together or it all comes like there's no
here is how I come up with composition
it's just like writing a paper I mean
like an academic paper I it's not like
you start from the intro and then like
work your way through it like there's so
many different ways to go about it so
one of the things that I've really been
fascinated with over time is like how
people iterate on their abilities
related to the things that they do in
their career so like your abilities as
an educator or as a researcher or an
author Etc like how have you tried to
either iterate on it or just like
practice it to improve in those
different areas interesting like I came
into Academia from a computer science
background and one thing that I did not
get at all was like formal training and
social science research methods right so
it's like how do you conduct interviews
how do you analyze interviews how do you
collect field nodes how do you make
sense of video data and like I just did
not have that and you know you kind of
get thrown into a space where you know
you need to be able to like a research
needs to be able to take data and learn
from it in a way that's like that
preserves Integrity right like that you
you were honestly trying to learn from
the data that you've collected on this
is like a typical like qualitative you
know approach to research that was
something like I'm really fortunate to
be at a place where I'm surrounded by
like brilliant students and I learn from
them you know like kind of doing things
together learn from colleagues read
examples but it's like definitely not so
it's something you really have to work
hard at to learn and pushing myself as a
writer like you know you read certain
authors like well I mean I think Seymour
password is like a is an example right
uh or someone like Don Norman these are
older examples but like or you know more
recently like uh the work of nylon this
year like there are certain authors that
you read their work and you're just like
wow they have you you start to recognize
the craft of writing and like how how
powerful they are as communicators of
ideas and so you know just like dress
and dress and drafts of like writing
that I'll rip up and like you know
iterate on and and sort of like
developing writing as a discipline is
something that just like and it also
gets you get rusty right as a writer
just like you get rusty as a musician
and um you know so just like it involves
practice and keeping charge do you have
a process for like the papers you write
I I asked like as an example one of my
mentors had a process where like each
day of the week he would work on a
different project and so he would be he
would have five projects going on
simultaneously and it gave him that
incubation time so that on Monday he
only thought about that project for
Monday and then he had a whole week to
think about it even though he's working
on other stuff and then he come back to
it but then I had other professors and
like myself where I just like go all in
on one thing and just do that Non-Stop
and then when I finish that move on to
the next thing yeah I'm definitely not
that structured although I do I do sort
of feel like I go through phases where
like right now I'm in a software
development phase or right now I'm in a
curriculum development phase or right
now I'm in a writing phase or right now
I'm in a data analysis phase I'm I'm
like you get really you still have all
of the other life things going on so you
can't like just throw yourself into it
like you know you could as a grad
student but you get really annoyed when
things are distracting you from like
writing or like you know coding or
whatever it is but I do think there are
times of day that like are good for
there's times a day that are good for
writing like that's like morning I write
on paper I write like I'll go on walks
like I write really well when I'm when
I'm moving so I'll go on walks with like
like a legal pad and a pen and people
think I'm some sort of random inspector
and they get really like freaked out
that there's this like weird guy walking
around like bopping and writing notes
but like that's how I that's how I write
first drafts and then like coding is
something I do well at in the like
afternoon evening like for whatever
reason meetings uh mid-afternoon you
know so this kind of like there's
definitely like you find ways to impose
structure when you can but you sort of
have to or otherwise I think you're just
responding to email all day right no no
good for anyone right which you're
you're definitely touching on the the
next question that I want to ask like
every guess but like how do you prevent
the burnout that can come with the
pressures of like working as a scholar I
mean I think it's just really hard I see
this you know happening like people just
throw themselves into work like there's
no other you know there's nothing else
that's important in life it's really
hard because you can like if you're not
actively trying to prevent it like avoid
it like our culture is just geared and
it's not just Academia like I think it's
any you know any number of different
kinds of jobs that are just sort of
geared up to burn you out as quickly as
possible unless you are actively working
to prevent it and so like part of me is
like kind of figuring out like there are
things I really really love about my job
I love teaching I love working with
students I love going into fifth grade
classrooms I really like writing when I
can you know like and so just
recognizing the things that like really
bring you Joy making sure that you have
time to do those things which and but
it's hard it's really hard to avoid
burnout and yeah I don't know how do you
avoid burnout oh so many different
approaches it's one of the reasons why
like each guest is because I want to
learn from them so I can figure it out
like you're mentioning the the thinking
time while walking so I use the Pomodoro
method where I'll work for 50 minutes
five zero minutes and then I'll take a
just be on my treadmill and I might
listen to a podcast or listen to music
or like play a video game um because I
have a like a TV mounted on it things
like that just to give me that time to
move because I'm the kind of person
where if I don't set an alarm I won't
stop working and then I'll be like oh
wow I haven't eaten in a few hours and
it's like dark outside and I didn't even
realize that right so there's that
there's just like setting very clear
boundaries with like at this time of day
I'm going to stop working on this thing
and like focus on like hanging out with
my wife Etc yeah yeah I have to be very
structured like you'll notice while I
was like in this conversation I was
drinking a liquid salad like that makes
it so that I don't have to sit down and
eat I can just like drink my lunch while
having a conversation like things like
this just little things that make it so
it saved me five ten minutes here or
there it all adds up in the end so that
I can be more intentional with my time
my energy my attention Etc throughout
the day I don't think this is right but
I think that that the burden of avoiding
burnout is is on the individuals who are
you know that it's rare that you find a
job that's structurally supports you in
life
not getting burnt out and the social
problem was like if I just did what I
was contractually obligated to do I
don't think I would feel burnt out but I
love doing all of these other things and
I throw myself into projects and like
and I think that that's the danger also
being a creative person is that you know
we get excited about building things and
doing things and creating things and
then like and that's all on top of
everything else and I think I don't I
don't have good solutions for you what
do you wish there's more research on
that can inform you on practices I mean
going back to the equity issue right
like in the inclusion issue like I think
we've been banging our heads against
this wall for 40 years and your your
comments about sort of like hello
illness Tendencies is is real and so
when like when we talk about things like
Outreach programs it very much assumes a
framework in which we are saying like
why aren't you coming to our party like
we have a party going on you should be
here like so come to our party right
like we'll pay you to come to our party
like you know and it's not acknowledging
that like people maybe don't want to be
in your your you know your party and and
of course there's tons of great research
going on in this that I feel like I
don't think we figured it out quite yet
at least not for computer science but if
we're talking about we're going back to
CS education like I think that's and so
many you know like it's this thing that
we were talking about before we started
where the minute you put something in
school it can be the coolest thing ever
but like the minute it's in in a
classroom and you're you have to do it
you're compelled to do it because the
teacher said so we kill the not
exclusively like they're great teachers
that there's I think of uh for many kids
in which CS raw movements getting Cs and
you know see us as a graduation
requirements in many cases that has done
more harm than good in terms of getting
people excited about computer science
and not exclusively right like I'm not
talking about everything but I think
that there has been you know their harm
done there so like understanding I think
Frameworks or understanding engagement
are pretty lacking I think that we as
computer science in particular
constructionism has been like a very
prominent framework and I I think
constructionism does a great job of
describing my own personal experience of
computer science I think it describes a
fraction of its experiences with
computer science and does not do a good
job of describing the experience of many
many other students and sort of having
other Frameworks that kind of help us
understand it can't be the only way that
you develop a love of a field there have
to be other ways to go about it and so I
kind of kind of believe that we need to
sort of have richer descriptions of
trajectories and Pathways yeah in the
learning Sciences in particular there's
like there's like people who really
focus on my cognitive load Theory and
really focusing on like what are the
learning outcomes and and that side of
things but then on the other end of the
pers the spectrum is like educational
psychologists who focus on motivation
and things like that and I think having
that merger of the two would be
beneficial yeah I think that that's I
think that that's right yeah like again
a lot more longitudinal success stories
I think would be really would be really
valuable to have you know kind of it's
easy to look and I'm guilty of this too
it's like we can evaluate a summer
program and talk about the experience of
kids in the summer program but we don't
know what happens to them the next year
or the year after that or the year after
that did this did this experience matter
and for whom did it matter yeah that's
more common practice for other domains
like I've done a lot of Grant reviews
for like the Department of Education and
they have that data on here's our impact
not only for this semester but like how
students are doing five years from now
and like that's fantastic but there's
just not enough of that when it comes to
learning like a lot of that was related
to some like other domain and we've
successfully avoided saying artificial
intelligence this entire interview but I
do think that that's like a big you know
that's obviously a big question kind of
going forward is like what are what are
we trying to do if we're talking about
you know sort of Computer Science
Education kind of re-examining like what
are the goals here and why you know yeah
I mean if five ten years from now you
can just give verbal commands to a
machine and it writes it for you like a
program are we gonna need to know the
the day-to-day like little details one I
think in music it's a good example of
like you know I can say hey compose
something in this genre like you know
this genre would you know this kind of
feeling and the Machine creates a fully
fleshed out you know three minute pop
song that sounds amazing like what is my
motivation as a human being to and great
engage in the you know creative process
myself right like I don't know how much
I'm concerned about that but I you know
it does yeah just understanding
motivation like what level of fidelity
do kids need to sort of feel excited and
proud and like want to explore deeper
and their words so very early on in this
podcast I did a little mini series on
modding and mod culture and one of the
things that they one of the studies
talked about was they found that
students were more motivated engaged Etc
when they were modding a video game
rather than creating a video game from a
blank slate and I think that's going to
happen with like just creating in
general not just in the Arts but like
hey chat gpt12 do this thing for me and
I'm going to modify it to actually make
it sound even better in the way that I
want but you're just gonna get rid of
the the boring work for me but who knows
we'll see a decade from now yeah no
that's actually really interesting and
we're certainly thinking about that in
terms of music and it's like you know
like can you give me pieces that I can
modify and like you know customize and
make my own but I do Wonder like what
the motivation structure is going to
look like for her people yeah what's
something that you're working on that a
listener might be able to help with what
comes to mind as you were mentioning
like it's hard finding music educators
like that could be a simple hey if you
know music educators reach out and
everything if you're a music educator or
like you know or you know music
educators reach out we have you know
curriculum that we've been developing
for several years that we're trying to
get into like a form that we'll have
online because it's like not really
publicly available and just working with
Educators so like Educators who are
excited about you know trying something
that maybe is like a little different I
really really believe in participatory
design with teachers I think it's like
pretty much the only way to go it's like
when you're co-designing stuff because I
I don't understand your needs as an
educator I don't understand fully the
need the trajectory of kids like I I see
you know the fifth graders I'm working
with now like I see them once a week for
broader context that they're living
through day to day and like so just
being able to partner with Educators is
like it's really it's like something
that gets me really excited so yeah
that's a great example of kind of
something that I would be looking for do
you have any questions for myself or to
the field at large so you've talked to
tons of people like what's the thing
that's like you're getting really
excited about when I first really
started getting into to CS education it
was like 2017 when I started doing it
full time and kind of viewing myself as
a CS educator like before that I was
just kind of dabbling in it as like an
Arts educator music educator I've seen a
broadening of this course where
originally it was more like years what
project-based learning is like very like
introductory like education 100 level
course kind of discussions but now
several years later we're like really
getting into yeah but what does
representation look like how does this
like compare to other forms of
addressing gaps in equity Etc or what
are the nuances with this pedagogical
approach compared to other pedagogical
approach when would you use one over
another Etc I feel like the field is is
maturing more and is starting to pull
scholarship from other domains and
actually looking at it in CS education
because there has been a tendency no
offense to well-intentioned Scholars to
kind of look at this from like a blank
slate and go well this is his new thing
a new subject area and we're going to
look at this and try and figure things
out as opposed to looking at other
domains like math education which has
been around for a wee bit longer and
going well what are the the Frameworks
the lenses the things the topics that
they are using or exploring discussing
and how might that inform our own work
etc and I think those conversations are
like becoming more commonplace so we're
getting more perspectives and more depth
and that like excites me to see that
that's awesome yeah are there any topics
that we haven't asked or that I haven't
asked that you'd like to discuss we're
kind of thinking about like elevating
coding to performance art and there's
been kind of like a sort of nascent live
coding scene that's out there but you
know my my real thing is like I wanna I
wanna imagine like what would it look
like to mash up a robotics competitions
with a poetry slam and sort of create
something completely new and different
that's like kid teams teams of kids are
coming up with their laptops and they're
improvising you know musical performance
using python code and like to sort of
bring in the the cultural identity
dimensions of poetry slams with the sort
of technical engineering dimensions of
Robotics competitions and sort of like
imagine something completely different
yeah it'd be fun but I have no idea how
to accomplish that what it would look
like but yeah I don't know if you've
spoken with a Sam Marin but like talking
about the algor Rave scene and all that
like get some ideas there I have not
talked to Sammy Aaron but yeah that's
kind of a genre shifted version of the
Opera red scene would be it would be
really exciting and interesting where
might people go to connect with you in
the organizations that you work with
people are always welcome to email me or
you can go to pinpad.com and contact us
through that and I'm I'm really excited
to talk to people so feel free to reach
out I'm on Twitter at Oren Michael we'll
include it in the thing but that's
virtually how to get a hold of me and
I'll make sure you include links to all
that in the show notes at Jared
o'leary.com if you enjoyed this and of
you consider sharing with somebody else
or simply leaving a review on whatever
app you're listening to this on it just
helps more people find the free content
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tuned next week for another episode
until then I hope you're all staying
safe and are having a wonderful
Guest Bio
Michael Horn is a Professor of Computer Science and Learning Sciences at Northwestern University where he directs the Tangible Interaction Design and Learning (TIDAL) Lab. Michael serves as the Program Coordinator for the Learning Sciences PhD Program at Northwestern and is co-Founder of the new Joint PhD Program in Computer Science and Learning Sciences. He is also co-editor-in-chief of the International Journal of Child-Computer Interaction and an associate editor for the Journal of the Learning Sciences. Michael's research explores the use of interactive technology in the design of innovative learning experiences. He takes a cautious but optimistic stance towards technology in a process that tightly couples research and design. His work has been exhibited at museums around the world including the California Academy of Sciences (San Francisco), the Museum of Science (Boston), the Field Museum (Chicago), and the Computer History Museum (Silicon Valley). Michael's research on tangible programming has contributed to the commercial products: Osmo Coding and Kibo Robotics. More recently Michael's team at Northwestern has created TunePad, a platform for communities of learners to create and share music using python coding. Michael earned his Ph.D. in Computer Science at Tufts University working in the Human-Computer Interaction Lab and the Developmental Technologies research group. He received his undergraduate degree in Computer Science from Brown University and has worked as a software engineer for several companies including Classroom Connect and iRobot Corporation.
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The Shire as Metaphor for Systemic Racism with Joyce McCall
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Connect with Michael
Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter