Computational Literacies with Michael Horn

In this interview with Michael Horn, we discuss computational literacies vs computational thinking, power in literacy, cultural imperialism, the impact of programming language on identity, the intersections of music and CS, and so much more.

  • Are you curious about what the

    difference is between computational

    literacies and computational thinking or

    how literacy and cultural imperialism

    relate to power in education or maybe

    you want to hear a discussion on how

    programming languages might actually

    impact identity and identity development

    or simply hear two people nerd out on

    the intersections of music and computer

    science if any of those topics are more

    interest to you make sure you stick

    around for this interview with Michael

    Horn and if you want to find more

    interviews like this make sure you visit

    jaredelary.com where there are hundreds

    of more podcast episodes as well as a

    ton of free computer science education

    resources but before you go diving into

    all that we will begin this episode with

    an introduction by Michael everyone my

    name is Mike I'm a professor at

    Northwestern University in the Chicago

    area and I have this weird joint

    appointment in computer science and in

    our school of education and a learning

    Sciences program which means that I'm

    kind of kind of straddling two two

    different worlds and thinking about

    problems not quite from a CS perspective

    and not quite from a education

    perspective and trying to do a little

    bit of both recently my work has really

    been kind of at the intersection of the

    creation of digital music and python

    coding and sort of thinking about all of

    the kind of educational affordances that

    fall out of that intersection so that's

    what a lot of my students and I have

    been kind of thinking about recently I'm

    really curious none of my professors

    ever had the Dual appointment does that

    mean dual amount of work like double the

    amount that you have to do

    if you do it right it means that you can

    kind of get away with sort of saying oh

    I'm doing you know I'm doing service

    work for school of education so I can't

    I don't have much extra bandwidth right

    now and and actually you know my people

    in charge of me like Deans and stuff

    have been really great and really

    supportive in terms of making that work

    can you tell me the story of how you got

    interested in designing Innovative

    learning experiences I kind of fell in

    love with Computer Sciences like a

    seventh grader a long time ago on on

    like Apple TVs but it was kind of like

    one of those things where you know when

    you you you discover something you're

    like whoa this is this is like I just

    didn't realize that I was really really

    excited about this stuff you know and I

    just love tinkering I had no idea what I

    was doing so a lot of it was just

    self-taught kind of and you know so I

    went college did computer science I

    didn't was doing a lot of teaching

    assistant work as an undergrad the when

    I graduated I kind of was like I want to

    go into educational technology as a

    career worked for a startup company

    doing like kind of online curriculum

    products and sort of adventure learning

    kinds of things and that was great for a

    couple years but then I was realizing

    like we're building curriculum products

    we're building products for teachers but

    our sales team is selling to districts

    at best and States at worst right like

    so it's like we're going to sell to the

    entire state of Texas our curriculum

    product and I'm like you know what I've

    since I've been at this company I've

    never seen the inside of a classroom

    like I've never seen a teacher actually

    using anything that we're doing and that

    got me you know more and more I was like

    man I I just feel like I'm missing you

    know something so that was kind of the

    impetus to go back to grad school but

    for the GRE got rejected from like 20

    places and you know eventually ended up

    at Tufts University where it did did a

    dissertation and that was kind of like a

    really fun place to be at that time and

    kind of was just like gotten I don't

    know just like it was like you know

    things started to click really was

    interested in computational literacy as

    a kind of direction for how can we use

    human computer interaction design as a

    tool for advancing computational

    literacy and and that was kind of how

    that got started so you mentioned

    computational literacy what does that

    mean to you I think computational

    literacy is a very important term and

    it's really misunderstood and I'm going

    to go into a little detail here because

    I think I think it's actually really

    important but so you know the

    conversation has really been about

    computational thinking okay that term

    thinking and that's where a lot of the

    Energy's been and I sort of think of

    computational literacy as a much broader

    conceptualization of computational

    thinking it sort of encompasses

    computational thinking but so the

    reasons are like a literacy is something

    that is developmental it involves

    culture it involves ways of thinking and

    it involves identity like these are the

    the pieces that are really interesting

    for me so I can like like a quick

    example you know the song uh five little

    ducks went out to play okay five little

    ducks went out to play over the hills

    and far away mama duck called quack

    quack quack quack and only four little

    ducks came back and then the song

    repeats the next time you go through the

    song there's three ducks and two ducks

    and then one duck and then like no ducks

    come back and the mom's really sad and

    then you sing the verse one more time

    and then all the ducks come back but I

    sing that song to little kids like or my

    my sons and daughters right and like why

    am I singing that song and this is like

    an example of a culturally embedded

    literacy activity so from like our

    earliest ages like adults and children

    like really sort of cultural forms of

    like songs and letters and you know

    refrigerator magnet letters like we are

    building literacy reading storybooks

    right like all of these things like are

    building literacy building numeracy if

    you come from a musical family your

    interactions with your parents are

    probably very like musical in nature

    like you probably have a lot of musical

    memories with I don't know about you in

    particular but like that sort of music

    as a literacy is sort of very sort of

    much culturally invade like sure schools

    have a part to play but there's like

    literacy takes a long time to develop it

    has profound implications for our

    identity so we become like a literate

    person and and like that's part of our

    identity and once we are once we have

    literacy it shapes the way we think in

    profound ways it shapes the kind of

    ideas we have it shapes the language

    that we use to think about ideas when

    we're thinking about computational

    thinking I think we think of things like

    power of code right it's sort of like or

    like you have to have a CS graduation

    requirement to get out of a Chicago

    public high school right and when I

    think about literacy I think about a

    much much longer trajectory and and

    Direction and so like a lot of these

    ideas for me are shaped by uh people

    like Andy desessa and um and that VR2

    Scholars that I've been you know reading

    a lot of of influence my thinking there

    so when when I'm thinking about

    computation as a literacy I think about

    it in those terms like it's not just a

    one and done hour of code kind of thing

    it it's something that happens over a

    long period of time that I don't think

    it's culturally embedded right now and

    I'm really curious about like how do we

    get to the like sort of the five little

    ducks song version of computational

    literacy we'll discuss claimer I'm not a

    huge fan of computational thinking and

    the way that it's presented one there's

    no unified definition of it nobody knows

    what they're talking about when they say

    computational thinking because everybody

    assumes their own other completely

    different definition of it the first

    time that I was really introduced to the

    idea of computational literacy

    literacies was in a paper is by kaffayan

    Proctor so it's called a revaluation of

    computational thinking K-12 education

    moving toward computational literacies

    and that's episode 111 I actually

    unpacked that in this podcast and I

    really enjoyed the way that they

    described it in terms of it like being

    like a thing that you do it's much more

    active and I really appreciate your

    description of literacy taking a long

    period of time is not just a one and

    done I often see a lot of districts when

    they engage in computational thinking in

    particular they they look at it and go

    all right well I checked off that I just

    did pattern recognition I won't need to

    do that until next semester and it's

    like right no like right if if this is

    actually conceived of as a literacy or

    even a skill like if I'm I'm very slowly

    learning Japanese and if I spent an hour

    one semester or one year trying to learn

    Japanese would I ever be able to learn

    how to read write speak Japanese right

    no never it's like not gonna happen

    never and so yeah I really like your

    your framing of computational literacies

    but I'm curious like what do you wish

    more Educators understood about your

    framing of computation literacies that's

    a great question and I and I should also

    say like you know I don't think that

    becoming computationally literate is as

    difficult as say learning Japanese right

    like I think that it's a Andy just says

    that calls it like a technical literacy

    which is something like maybe like an

    app like algebra is like another example

    that he really likes to hold up as a

    technical literacy it's something that

    once you kind of learn algebra and you

    can start thinking in these ways like

    like I think a lot of people have the

    experience of doing algebra and they and

    it sort of felt like wow that really

    actually changed the way I think about a

    lot of things I have to say like I'm

    actually a big fan of a lot of the

    direction that people who are designing

    the high school curriculum are thinking

    about or even even the KA curriculum are

    really thinking about you know this ads

    a long game as as something that can be

    integrated meaningfully with other

    subjects and I think that that's coming

    along slowly but you know I think that

    would be my kind of biggest takeaway for

    for me is like oh being literate means

    that I can engage in other kinds of

    things using that language as a tool

    right so so it becomes a for me it

    becomes a tool to think about music or

    it becomes a tool to think about like

    for Andy to Sessa it's a tool to think

    about physics or or there's a really

    brilliant paper by Ruth sharence this is

    an older paper but it's kind of like

    it's sort of like asking this really

    cool what-if question like what if we

    took out equations out of learning

    physics and the intro physics class at

    an undergraduate level and instead used

    coding what would the implications of

    that be and you know he really kind of

    takes a deep dive into that world and

    it's not like a direct actionable thing

    but it's just more of a shift and

    vantage point and like kind of how we

    think about the role of coding and

    computation and in its relationship to

    other subjects and other ways of pain

    and that we don't have to like do it all

    like it's okay you know we do it like I

    don't mind doing an hour code right like

    it is a it's an introduction it like and

    I don't have to like accomplish the

    whole field but you know I do think

    you're right like it does help address

    this kind of like check mark mentality

    that like oh we did we did this topic so

    we're done right you know and and that's

    it yeah and the the framing of you

    mentioned using it as a tool a literacy

    involves not just reading but also

    writing so not just using but also

    creating and so that idea is a very key

    distinction from what I see people

    describing as computational thinking

    where it's just like oh you're thinking

    about something you might be solving a

    problem but you might not be you might

    not be creating things you might not be

    creating or reading or doing anything

    you're just thinking but literacies

    might involve more than that right

    totally so here's here's the other

    pieces like I don't think actually come

    reputational literacy well like you know

    when I when I went through I became a

    professional software engineer and for

    me that like I do think I had sort of a

    literacy and computation but I don't

    think it's fully there yet like we don't

    have we're getting there but we don't

    have like say genres of computational

    literacy we're not using computational

    literacy to to communicate the cool

    thing is like once you start thinking

    about things as literacy it's all sorts

    of implications start to fall out of

    that yeah one of my favorite is um like

    Annette V she has this this wonderful

    book from 2017 and she talks about

    medieval France as a literate Society

    like they if you wanted to buy land in

    medieval France if you wanted to get

    married if you wanted to you know pay

    your taxes you had to have some sort of

    written document okay so like the

    society was dependent on reading and

    writing documents but the portion of

    literate people in that Society was very

    low you had a literature Society or a

    society that was dependent on literacy

    and popular relation that is largely

    illiterate and what she sort of says

    there is like then you can see how

    literacy is connected to the power in

    that society and so I think that

    reflection on modern day Society is

    really interesting because if you think

    about like we like it's hard to sort of

    dispute that computation is a literacy

    of power in society right now right like

    everything we do in some ways depends on

    software that somebody wrote but the

    proportion of the population is like

    computational litter is like super small

    like that that analogy is really

    interesting it has limitations like it's

    not a Perfect Analogy but I think you

    know those are the kinds of things that

    you start to wonder about when you think

    of computation as literacy yeah my mind

    is is spinning right now like the idea

    of thinking of what would different

    genres be of computational literacy like

    that is has really got me thinking but

    even what you're just talking about like

    yeah there's a lot of power if you are

    literate and are able to use this form

    of literacy in society and what is I

    find kind of fascinating is that there

    are people in hour like Congress who are

    not literate in this and they are in a

    position of power but they don't have

    this kind of power so it's it's

    fascinating scene in their The Tick-Tock

    ban discussions yeah and they have no

    clue what they're talking about yeah

    yeah like does tick tock connect to

    Wi-Fi yeah yes

    like I don't understand so the other

    really cool thing that a netbeat does

    this book really changed my thinking in

    so many ways she's like the problem is

    like if I say I am computationally

    literally like do you do you think of

    yourself as computationally literate

    yeah it depends on how you think of

    computational literacy but yeah I mean

    like there's the using the tools like

    computers there's the like there's a

    Continuum of it there's also being able

    to program it like I can go from like

    one end to the other and back and forth

    Etc so in different ways I am literate

    so like if you had to write a python

    script pull down some data like metadata

    on like say you know I don't know

    whatever you're interested in like you

    could probably figure out how to do that

    yeah like I haven't used python but

    because I have used like C plus plus

    Swift Java JavaScript Etc like I can

    transfer the syntax over and go okay I

    can figure this out this is what I would

    need to do yeah one of my problems with

    computational literacy is that it's also

    very imprecise in the same way that

    computational thinking is and like that

    that kind of bugs me but one of the

    things that anit V did that that you

    know she's like basically when we start

    calling ourselves computationally

    literate we have just inadvertently

    called a whole bunch of people

    computationally illiterate and to call

    someone illiterate is attaches stigma to

    that person and so there's like a moral

    like so once education system like

    here's where the danger comes in it's

    like an education system says okay we're

    gonna we're gonna call everything

    computational literacy well then it's

    sort of like there you start to attach

    these moral value judgments to people

    who don't have that like literacy like

    to call somebody illiterate is a moral

    judgment on them in many ways even if we

    don't intend it that way like I think

    yeah so then you start to think about

    well hey like we're talking about

    literacy like you have to remember that

    like as much as literacy has been like a

    tool of empowerment for people it has

    been a tool of Oppression in exactly as

    much you know so like who gets to decide

    what counts as literacy who do we who

    gets access to the literacy who gets

    denied whose forms of literacy are

    repressed or marginalized you know

    literacy can be a tool of

    disenfranchisement so it's like in the

    research we're doing we're thinking

    about a lot of those like kind of those

    tensions I think are really really

    everywhere when she when she starts to

    think about it yeah you know let's let's

    double click on that like I'm happy to

    dive into that like I've done podcast

    episodes we've unpacked like Bordeaux in

    relation to like cultural capital in

    education and just learning in general

    like I've interviewed Kimberly Scott and

    we've talked about this like Joyce

    McCall's talked about it like most of

    these discussions have been around race

    in particular but like happy to talk

    about just like Equity at large like I

    think it's very important to discuss

    that so if we can talk about how does

    computational relate to that or even

    just equity in in relation to the Cs

    education

    Etc like let's do it I have a PhD

    student in Isaiah Wallace who's who's

    about to graduate so he should be he

    should be Dr Wallace in about a month or

    two here it all goes well and he's

    really been thinking hard about this you

    know this particular issue he initially

    started out as an electrical engineer

    and then switched over to computer

    science and then really sort of fell

    into this you know sort of world of

    Computer Science Education although I

    think he wouldn't call himself in that

    realm because he really wants to push

    Beyond formal education and so he and he

    came up as a street dancer in

    Philadelphia so like he was immersed in

    a community of people where you know

    they had competitions they had mentoring

    structures there was like it was a real

    community of practice of people who

    learned how to do how to engage in dance

    and so he's really been trying to think

    about applying that kind of experience

    to out of school computer science and

    sort of computational literacy I'll be

    serving I don't know if you're familiar

    with it okay so what it is it's been

    going on forever it's been going on

    since the 70s they they survey colleges

    and universities in North America so

    they'll like just write to all of the

    department heads of all computer science

    Computer Engineering departments in

    Canada the United States just feel like

    tell us about who's graduating who's

    getting degrees who's entering PHD

    programs who's leaving PHD programs and

    it's like kind of depressing to go back

    and look at the historical data and how

    things have changed in computer science

    as a field over 40 years right and you

    see very very slow but steady

    progression of women in the field

    there's still very much under

    representation but there's been slow and

    steady progress so at a minute you'll be

    like okay at least I'm seeing seeing

    growth I'm seeing change if you look at

    black students who enter PHD programs

    like CMC energy Master's programs

    undergraduate degree programs it has

    been flat or for pretty much since the

    super depressing thing but I also think

    sort of super indicative of the way the

    cultural nature of the field right now

    as it is

    um and so Isaiah is really thinking

    about like why aren't we seeing this

    change and reflecting on his own

    experience as a black man in the field

    of computer science and like he would be

    actually a really fascinating person if

    you want to have a really fascinating

    podcast like a chat with Isaiah about

    this but yeah he's been you know kind of

    thinking about like okay I I didn't

    learn dance in a school I learned it in

    sort of like in my own cultural context

    in a sort of almost like an underground

    community of dancers and he's like

    saying look why can't we have that in

    computer science like why can't like he

    had this term he called Street coding

    like why can't we have people who are

    just out on you know like using code for

    self-expression like music or dance or

    poetry like why is it and that if you if

    you're not paying attention to culture

    and processes of enculturation that fall

    outside of formal academic settings

    you're you're missing the the point

    right and and and this goes back to the

    literacy thing like I think that there's

    a certain degree of enculturation that

    happens for people who that you know

    that parents and children engage in that

    prepares them for academic degree

    programs like that's just the way it is

    and yeah so his his focus is like how do

    we start to imagine sort of underground

    competing cultures that are for him

    located in like sort of the Black

    American experience but I think you

    could imagine this in in lots of

    different contexts and how do you

    encourage and grow that kind of thing

    that's completely outside of formal

    School settings and so he's really

    thinking about the long game and kind of

    thinking about computational

    acculturation in the unpacking

    scholarship episodes I like to share

    like lingering questions and thoughts at

    the end of the episode like here's

    something that just kind of popped into

    my head while reading this I forget

    which paper it was but one of them I was

    wondering out loud at what point is it a

    form of like I don't know

    epistemological or ontological or

    axiological colonization so colonizing

    ways of knowing being valuing Etc when

    we look at some of the data and so the

    thing that like really just randomly

    popped in my head one day was well there

    likely are not a lot of Amish people who

    are getting degrees in computer science

    if we are trying to increase that

    percentage is that then a form of

    colonization in terms of changing the

    ways of being and valuing Etc and at

    what point does that happen with other

    cultures other than that a very extreme

    example right there yeah and yeah so

    some of that has been talked about with

    like well why are certain genders in

    fields and not in others Etc and and

    yeah I don't know that's just kind of me

    thinking out loud like it's a

    fascinating there's so many different

    intersectional things and cultural

    things to consider like when it comes to

    any kind of data like that totally and

    so and yeah this is going back to Andy

    de Sessa like he was really upset with

    the term computational thinking part of

    the reason was he felt that and and that

    V talks about this too is that like we

    tend to equate computational literacy

    with computer science as a field and he

    calls this kind of like a culture

    imperialism where computer science it's

    a scientific discipline it values it's

    an engineering discipline it values

    efficiency and correctness and writing

    neat and tidy comments and and you know

    being all these things that go along

    with kind of scientific disciplines and

    but you know that's not what I was

    that's not why I fell in love with

    coding right like I fell in love with

    coding for the craft of it or the

    creative part of it like and it kind of

    this idea of like well do we if we

    started to have different genres of

    computational literacy then this kind of

    your point about like okay well who gets

    to own who gets to decide and are we

    just like inviting you know are we

    trying to like we're trying to invite

    other people into our dominant culture

    as opposed to saying like maybe maybe we

    should be open to people you know

    Reinventing computational literacy ideas

    on their own terms and so we've we've

    also been kind of playing around with

    ideas of subversive literacy so if you

    like like I tend to think of like the

    birth of hip-hop is kind of like a

    subversion of dominant forms of literacy

    dominant musical paradigms dominant

    paradigms of dance it was sort of

    rejecting the act like the academy and

    saying like you know what we're just

    gonna reinvent this on our own terms

    right and I think you look at looking

    Jazz you look at Blues like a lot of the

    sort of musical genres that grew out of

    the Black American Experience I think

    that those are really really interesting

    examples of subversions of literacy to

    sort of reclaim power reclaim identity

    and like what would a subversion of

    computational literacy look like that

    sort of rejects the sort of the the

    cultural imperialism of like computer

    science it is

    terminology but so I think your your

    example like that's what it makes me

    think about yeah that's interesting I I

    really like that I'm kind of curious

    what your genre of computer science was

    that got you interested in it so like

    for myself it would be like game

    development like that was something that

    I was interested in yeah I mean I I I'm

    very old you know I learned on an Apple

    III like in basic and but it was the

    kind of thing where nobody was telling

    me what was good bad code like it was

    just and and like I wanted to recreate

    and then it was like turbo Pascal like

    I'm really old and but he's like I

    wanted to make video games like my

    parents didn't have a lot of money we

    didn't have like you know video game

    muscle in our house so it's like I want

    to make my own version of these games

    and then the code was terrible like it

    was just awful right like but I didn't

    know any better and no one was telling

    me like no that's wrong you know and I

    would spend four hours and hours and

    hours into that for those reasons yeah I

    say that because I I think it's

    important to think of context in the

    classroom and like how you can explore

    different interests so like you're

    mentioning like genres when I was in the

    K8 coding classes that I taught there

    were kids who really wanted to make

    games there were some kids who really

    wanted to make stories there are others

    who wanted to make music or art and

    animation like having those different

    genres as ways to express oneself or

    explore one's interest it was a huge

    part of what I tried to focus on in the

    classroom and in the curriculum that I

    developed in National development Etc

    and to be honest like that's the thing

    I've been really you know that really

    encourages me about the current state of

    Cs education is that I do think that the

    tendency has been to I'm not going to

    teach you like the apcs curriculum and

    force you to learn how to you know write

    Haskell or python or whatever it's been

    about highlighting the ways in which

    coding can be used in Creative domains

    and on lots of different creative

    domains from video games to robotics to

    to music to art to you know yeah it's

    been nice like when I was in high school

    it was the very first year in my junior

    year that they offered apcs and it was

    when it was C plus plus and until that I

    had nothing so to see that

    kindergarteners now have an option in

    some districts from kindergarten all the

    way through 12th grade so for 13 years

    they can explore different platforms

    different languages Etc when they get

    into high school they could go into app

    development game development they could

    do like CS discoveries uh apcs all sorts

    of different ideas it's it's nice having

    many different Pathways for people to

    explore and I think like going back to

    the Equity discussion like um to be

    clear I'm definitely an advocate for

    representation Etc but I also am like

    cautious with like the colonization side

    of things but the fact that we have

    these different paths for people to take

    like I want to make something that's fun

    versus I want to make something that

    helps people the fact that those two

    different branches might exist within

    the same class or in different classes I

    think is fantastic it's really fantastic

    yeah I completely agree and it's

    unfortunate that you had to learn C plus

    as your first language that's a separate

    conversation okay well let's get nerdy

    for a second so one of the the thoughts

    that I had is so the the kids that I

    work with from fourth grade through

    eighth grade some of them chose to work

    with Ruby as their language in Sonic

    play and they really enjoyed creating

    with that but one of the the questions

    that I kind of had that I never really

    got an answer for was how are they going

    to feel when they transfer from a higher

    level language to a lower level language

    versus going from lower to higher

    because for myself

    having to learn the Sim syntax nightmare

    that was C plus plus it made it so when

    I got to like something like Ruby I was

    like wow this is super easy everything

    this is like super simple yeah yeah but

    going the other direction I wonder if it

    would be even more confusing yeah this

    is one where I feel like people like

    David weintrop are really kind of trying

    to push to to really understand Marcus

    style too I think is is thinking a lot

    about like is it the language is it the

    applications like where do we want to be

    spending our time also in formal

    education settings like if the point is

    not CS for its own sake but CS or

    something else that we're doing like do

    you really want to you really want to

    spend all your time learning you know

    syntax of even even like a python-like

    language right yeah so Mark was on

    episode 86 and Andrea steffic was on

    episode 27 and what was fascinating

    about that conversation with Andreas is

    he mentioned a a study that they did

    where they used a placebo language that

    had random characters to see if a

    programming language did better or worse

    than the placebo and some of them did

    worse just like random collection of

    characters for like a for Looper for

    whatever that's no good

    really funny I don't know the answer to

    this and like I thought a little bit

    about it it hasn't really been my main

    kind of like emphasis well and Marcus

    style might disagree with me here but I

    worry a little bit about like that the

    language is condescend to kids as they

    get older when when it's kind of drag

    and drop a little bit that if we're

    teaching high school students scratch

    and I want to be cautious here because

    like I don't have the data like so that

    this is like this is just me like

    wondering we've been working with python

    with fifth grade students for a while

    now and it and it works you know some

    some kids are still learning how to type

    some kids don't know how to copy paste

    you know so there are real it's much

    slower for them but there are lots of

    fifth graders who you know are flying

    right and they're ready you know so and

    they've been doing scratch or Tinker or

    code.org for years now and they're ready

    but this is kind of like the the

    literacy of his identity sort of thing

    where it's like there are communities

    where it's sort of like the things that

    look really Technical and complex is

    like part of the identity experience

    that like if you like audio Engineers I

    think are you know they've got their you

    know their Ableton Live you know pause

    up and there's like that's what I'm

    recording on 10 billion LEDs flashing

    you know like cables everywhere like and

    and that's kind of like a badge of honor

    like it is you know to be taken

    seriously as an audio engineer you sort

    of give off this like and the truth is

    you probably don't need all that visual

    complexity like to do a good job with it

    right so I I kind of wonder about the

    the identity related aspects of that I

    think we we tend to want to not

    intimidate students with languages that

    feel like you know too Technical and

    complex but I there I think there's a

    flip side in that I think some students

    really want to have that sort of that

    visual image it's like it's all like

    about appearances but I think in some

    ways like appearances and identity you

    know like it's it's very important right

    like that the tools that I use are part

    of my identity and so anyway those are

    things I wonder about I don't have any

    answers all right that's a great

    wonderment I mean especially in Middle

    school and high school there's

    insecurity is something that you really

    have to consider when working with kids

    because they don't want to be perceived

    as uncool or lesser than their peers or

    the groups they want to associate with

    right so if they're using a language

    that they might consider like a quote

    baby language like a block based right

    they might have lower social status than

    if they're using something that is

    considered to be more professional

    unless of a baby language right even

    though it might be able to do the same

    thing or be easier there is that like

    social status involved with it so I

    think that's an important thing to

    consider yeah which again is like why I

    focus on having multiple platforms

    multiple languages you pick which one

    you want and it's really easy really

    really easy I think to genderize

    students to sort of say like you know

    girls are not going to like be Ableton

    Live kind of experience that you know

    they want you know like we don't it's

    not that explicit or overt but there are

    much more subtle ways in which we acted

    I think you know genderize the

    experience racialize the experience I

    think we're studying languages from a

    very a cognitive perspective like what

    is how does this help us learn what's

    the right trajectory you know like to

    sort of make the learning curve as

    smooth as possible as opposed to

    thinking about like languages from an

    identity perspective and in a you know

    sort of an affective perspective how do

    I feel like how does this how do I

    present when I'm sort of seeing you know

    coding with this language that's

    interesting does that inform your work

    with what you've done with tune pads yes

    very much like we made a lot of

    aesthetic decisions in tune pad where

    we're trying to thread a needle between

    we want something that's very easy to

    learn but we wanted to have the

    appearance uh you know like it kind of

    has an appearance of a professional

    music production environment and it you

    know like choosing like what color

    scheme do you use for your IDE or like

    what what does your text editor look

    like yeah does it have the dark

    background you know with the candy

    coated color syntax or does it have you

    know a light background and you know we

    we put a lot of like those kinds of

    decisions I think are really important

    and we to be honest like we don't have

    good data behind like whether that's

    sort of the right decisions or not so

    it's kind of it's really hard to study

    that but maybe that's something we

    should study

    there is an aesthetic that we wanted to

    go around coding you know in relation to

    music that we were trying to pursue and

    then the other side of that is like we

    want it to be easy easy enough to learn

    so that people aren't completely thrown

    off guard because there's like these two

    literacies that we're trying to pursue

    simultaneously like there's the

    computational literacy which is really

    Technical and difficult musical literacy

    which is really Technical and difficult

    and we're asking people to do both at

    the same time right so one way to think

    about it is like well that's going to be

    twice as hard it's just teaching music

    on its own or coding on its own and so

    kind of our argument is like it might

    seem like it's twice as hard but we

    actually like teaching them together

    makes both easier so we actually at

    least that's the sort of hypothesis that

    we're running with that coding gives you

    a really interesting language to think

    about music and the algorithmic nature

    of music and the mathematical nature of

    music and structural nature of music and

    it breaks through like hundreds and

    hundreds of years of like really

    confusing music terminology at least if

    you're looking at like Western tradition

    events like western music notation is

    screwed up it's just like a disaster

    right like it's German Italian French

    English all mangled together with these

    like weird redundant terminology like

    why is C Sharp the same thing as like B

    flat and like you know and and the chord

    names like are a disaster you know like

    sorry I I don't want to attend any music

    people out there but it's really it's

    really I mean it's really awful and so

    code is this like kind of really cool

    well okay this is my just opinions right

    like like it feels like a

    restructuration of of music terminology

    it's a new way to think about music and

    then sort of like music really is like a

    domain where like the cool Parts about

    what you can do with code start to shine

    through in like really interesting ways

    at least at least that's what we're

    going for let's take a step back for a

    second if you were in an elevator and

    you're introducing yourself and you're

    like oh I work on this thing called tune

    pad and they're like oh what is Tim pad

    I've never heard of it what would your

    response be for that is a is a free

    online platform that you can use to

    create digital music using python coding

    language as like programming language as

    the tool that you create digital music

    with we use it to teach kids about music

    and music theory but but oftentimes we

    sell that as teaching python coding

    because that's what people care about

    right now just unfortunate now that

    we've established some context because I

    realize I have a context because I've

    like looked at the website and whatnot

    but somebody who's like new might not

    might be like I've never heard of this

    what is this going back to your point

    about like the the problems with Western

    staff notation it is very limited on the

    data that it actually conveys to a

    performer the performer has to be able

    to expand upon the notes not just

    looking at the Dynamics but also looking

    at Timbre thinking about it in relation

    to the acoustic environment in which

    you're performing in the audience you're

    working with oh there's so many factors

    like that has been addressed to an

    extent by digital audio workstations

    Daws like you mentioned Ableton and live

    garage bands are very like user-friendly

    one Etc where you have this granular

    control as a producer composer Etc to be

    able to shape the timbre the acoustic

    characteristics of the sound that's

    something you can't get by just putting

    a note on a staff so there's a lot of

    data missing from there when you add in

    that layer of code from myself it

    expands some opportunities that you

    would not have just performing with an

    acoustic instrument in particular

    something called aliatoric music so like

    aliatoric Music is More Chance based so

    like myself I wrote out a drum kit that

    plays an infinite number of drum grooves

    and fills and I don't know what it's

    going to sound like until I get another

    seed and then it'll just play Forever

    that is like that integration of music

    and CS well it's the term aliatoric oh

    that's really cool yeah so like an

    example is like roll a dice and then

    that'll tell you what chord to play kind

    of a thing it's a whole genre that's

    been going on for quite some time but

    it's fascinating but that connection of

    Cs and music like I really enjoy

    exploring those intersections where you

    can't have one without the other like I

    mentioned before we started recording

    like my dissertation like chiptunes Etc

    I think that intersection is fascinating

    can I do a little musical demo that that

    I think is exactly what what I really

    like one of the dimensions of like you

    know coding that comes through let me

    try playing like a sampling

    [Music]

    foreign

    [Music]

    this is like very like just we're

    playing four chords right like there's

    no there's no Randomness or you know but

    but even like how you describe chords I

    think is actually kind of interesting

    yeah when you start to describe chords

    in mathematical like relationships and

    and you know if it's a it's a if it's a

    major Triad it has exactly the same

    numerical pattern no matter what the

    root note is and like that's a really

    different way of thinking about chords

    and I think we're used to but in this

    one like there's like just sort of a

    basic sort of Bad Bunny and started

    inspired beat where you have just like a

    rhythmic pattern that uses a drum

    machine which is kind of like the

    signature Style

    okay so that's like your your sort of

    main beat but then like oh and then sort

    of sort of I think another sort of Bad

    Bunny signature style is like to kind of

    have like sort of crap sounding hi-hats

    that kind of layer in on top of that so

    like

    so those are your like your hi-hats and

    that's just a bunch of python for loops

    and you can't see it but like you know

    the kind of breaking down hi-hat

    patterns is like that is an algorithmic

    structure in the music and so we don't

    usually think about it that way but like

    it's a really really good example of

    like why you might want for loops and

    like the flexibility that for Loops give

    you in terms of changing the duration of

    nodes the number of nodes and the pitch

    of notes and it's really easy to

    experiment with different patterns you

    know and much of the way that like I

    think modern Daws let you do but it's

    kind of like a cool language to do that

    with but then what you were talking

    about with Elliot Twerk Music like this

    using Randomness to just sort of say

    like I want to randomly sprinkle in

    you know some some claps into that main

    beat pattern and you play all three of

    those together probably again just play

    the whole thing together and like

    [Music]

    and you know it's that kind of playing

    with Randomness that like layers in with

    sort of like well-established beat

    patterns it's like really easy to

    express in a length and like a language

    like Python and it's really hard to

    express with sheet music right so thank

    you for indulging that demo I'm always

    happy to talk about music and CS so how

    do you envision students and teachers

    using that like CS teachers versus like

    music educators yeah so we've had very

    little success getting music educators

    to confine to this a lot of them are uh

    a bit uh old in their ways in their

    thinking we just it was like just the

    other day we were working in an art

    classroom and the art teacher is like oh

    you should be at our music teacher and

    she brought us over and introduced us to

    the music teacher and like that was the

    first time I really like clicked with a

    music teacher in a music classroom and

    we were like okay this is an exciting

    you know sort of mashup of these two

    worlds but I think it's been it's been

    really really hard to get to get music

    teachers to work with us I can

    understand why like I think I'm makes

    sense what what are their rationales for

    it I mean I I think this is true of Any

    teacher that like their jobs are really

    really hard and if you're a music

    teacher you're probably you know working

    with hundreds of kids on a given day I

    mean you know this better than I do I'm

    sure and so it's like even like

    remembering kids names and getting them

    to like engage it's like you your your

    challenges are substantial and you're

    trying to build a love of music you know

    for kids and like that is your priority

    and rightfully so right like so if

    somebody's like you know we could do

    python coding and music and it's like uh

    like I don't know who you are I don't

    trust you I don't I don't see the value

    in this beyond what we're already doing

    like these are real instruments I mean I

    think that there's something to be said

    for like playing real instruments and

    like you know exploring the real Timber

    of like you know percussion or whatever

    it is that you're learning so I think

    it's it's a really hard sell what about

    music technology teachers like there's

    not as many of them but yeah because

    they might be teaching with GarageBand

    or Pro Tools or whatever yeah and a lot

    of them are and I think it's been kind

    of it is kind of like Trust issues like

    I think if a colleague says oh you have

    to check out this thing like oh so I

    should shout out your sketch here like

    and Sonic pyre the the two other big

    players kind of in this so we we got

    started in collaboration with your

    sketch so it's like this was like kind

    of meant to be an extension of the ear

    sketch ecosystem and Sonic Pi was very

    much an inspiration for us you know we

    we saw some limitations of Sonic pie but

    yeah I think if it if a Polly comes to

    you and says oh hey like you're using

    GarageBand have you seen this thing

    called tune pad and you know here's all

    this curriculum and you should try it

    out like I think that that you trust

    your colleague more than a researcher is

    like saying do you want to try out my

    experimental thing you know and so I

    think some of it is just a matter of

    like I'm an exposure and like if if

    people see the platform and they like it

    and and like that's our goal is that it

    spreads by word of mouth and that people

    get excited about it but you know it's I

    think it's still I don't know if this is

    going to work right like we we've had a

    lot of success with it we enjoy teaching

    it like we've seen students react to it

    but none of these platforms are perfect

    and you know does This Server real need

    for real teachers and real students is

    like I think that's that's the real

    question and I don't you know I don't

    pretend to know the answer I do think

    that there has been a bit of a history

    with the Arts in general and other

    domains kind of coming in as colonizers

    and I'm not saying that that's what's

    happening but there have been studies

    even when it comes to the intersection

    of music and CS where like the explicit

    goal and the abstract is the purpose of

    this is to increase enrollment numbers

    in computer science courses totally so

    we're going to do this thing yeah and so

    there there is that skepticism even for

    those who are like really into music

    technology and like can see the value in

    it it can come across as subservient

    depending on how things are framed but I

    do like your point that like if it's

    introduced from a colleague that might

    be less scary than like that history of

    Outsider coming in as researcher trying

    to show me what to do exactly right and

    I think there's a version of this

    narrative that I don't spouse which is

    like we want to get more kids into

    computer science and the way we do that

    is you know Dress It Up in something fun

    like music or video games and that way

    they'll you know get excited about

    computer science because we're kind of

    almost like tricking them into the it's

    the sort of classic chocolate covered

    broccoli

    you know narrative which you know I

    definitely am not don't agree with um

    and I've really been the more I get into

    this the more I'm thinking like this is

    a really interesting way to think about

    music education so music education right

    like I learned music I learned how to

    play Viola starting in middle school I

    learned by the Suzuki method and it was

    torture right like it was like play

    Twinkle Twinkle Little Star until your

    fingers to lead literally yeah and and I

    don't mean that that's like all music

    education and I don't even think it's

    all Suzuki method applications but the

    way that Suzuki method was applied in my

    case was just wrote practice right and I

    never never really got an appreciation

    for how music works I never got to

    appreciate music as a literature like I

    could sort of think about it have my own

    ideas and reaction to a piece of music

    it was just like shut up and play

    Madison dorski like ten thousand times

    because we're performing it at the end

    of the you know the end of the quarter I

    never made any of my own music with that

    instrument that's an important point for

    people to consider like for those who

    have not been in a music class as a

    student or as a teacher like there's an

    assumption oh well you're creating music

    it's like no you're recreating somebody

    else's music that they wrote and you are

    performing it the exact same way as

    everyone else there's very little

    expressiveness in those kinds of classes

    yeah and that's not how we teach reading

    now right like there is some of that

    like you know there is some of it like

    you're just practicing letter shapes and

    sounds right but there's also like you

    choose the books that are interesting to

    you yeah right because we want to build

    people who are in love with reading

    right I don't know that in all cases

    we're doing that with music education

    and I think GarageBand does this to some

    extent too right like it's like a

    letting letting kids create music

    instead of just regurgitating music but

    like what what I what's hard about

    GarageBand is like it doesn't doesn't

    give you a language for thinking about

    music theory it just sort of lets you

    you can either play an instrument and

    you feel free to disagree with me like

    or push back here like you know it gives

    me these these fancy musical instruments

    that like arpeggiate for me or play in a

    certain key or like you know like I can

    play chords automatically without having

    to think about it and I can combine

    samples from different genres and like

    play around with different instruments

    but I'm not sure it's sort of giving me

    a language for thinking about music

    theory like how music works and this is

    where I'm wondering about like can code

    kind of be a language that lets us think

    about music theory and I don't mean like

    the again like the really inaccessible

    version of Music Theory just like kind

    of some of the basics of music to kind

    of elaborate on what you're talking

    about for people who are not familiar

    with it like I've done a lot of Music

    Theory more than I'd like and like my

    best friend has like a PhD in

    composition and the way that he talks

    about music theory is that it's it was

    designed to analyze the end product and

    was not actually used to create that

    product so music theory is not

    necessarily helpful for composing music

    as much as it is for understanding a way

    of looking at how it sounds the way that

    it does so it's more descriptive than it

    is a framework for creating you can use

    certain aspects as a framework but it's

    it's more describing like if you do a

    shankarian analysis it's something that

    you'll like often learn in grad school

    that is a type of music theory where it

    talks about tension and release in music

    and how do the chord structures kind of

    all relate to this like big building

    point and then have a climax and then

    some kind of release Etc and it's a

    fascinating way of studying it but it

    really does nothing to make me a better

    composer and it's not how I actually

    think when I do it so that it is that

    weird kind of is this useful for

    creating or is this useful for listening

    and understanding after the fact that's

    super fascinating I hadn't heard that

    before like don't scales and keys and

    diatonic chords like give you a

    framework for creation of Music those

    are more of like the letters and the

    words than it is like how the paragraphs

    work together like it's it's very

    rudimentary tools that you will use and

    it's helpful but it doesn't really

    encapsulate everything that goes on like

    when I write music whether it's like

    percussive music that is not related to

    Melody Harmony Etc or it is ETC

    interesting yeah that's super

    fascinating I I hadn't heard that

    perspective before and and it kind of

    does make a lot of sense of sort of like

    literary criticism as a tool for

    understanding and taking literature

    apart but not the act of writing

    literature and like experiencing a

    really good novel right yeah like we're

    not we're very far away from where we

    want to be but you know like we

    introduced cord pretty early on and sort

    of like and as like we shy away from a

    lot of the terminology and we're not

    teaching people how to like about keys

    and that sort of thing but we are saying

    like here are seven chords set and

    here's the formula for making those

    chords play around with the chords find

    ones that sound good together to you yep

    and then here's how you can put them

    into a piece of music and let you know

    then then it's like okay once you have

    your chords here's how you can create an

    arpeggio right like and we we go pretty

    early on with that that kind of approach

    to sort of scaffold up the creation of

    pieces I I you know I don't know how

    well it works yet but that's that's been

    kind of our approach yeah I I took a

    class during my Master's that was

    learning how to compose in the style of

    different composers over the course of

    the last couple hundred years and what's

    interesting is we use music theory to

    analyze basically their patterns of

    musical discourse and to try and figure

    out if R to write in the style of

    Schubert my chord structure might be

    like this but if I were to write in the

    style of Beethoven it would be like this

    instead yes and then it was the

    variations from that framework to go but

    Schubert would have had this kind of

    embellishment that is atypical than what

    Beethoven would have done Etc so it's

    helpful for figuring that out yeah

    that's really interesting yeah well I'm

    glad you think so but I'm a nerd when it

    comes to that

    I think a big emphasis in music

    education oftentimes is to start with

    Melody first and we're very much like

    start with beat first start with rhythm

    start with percussion first yes thank

    you because like that's where the soul

    is yeah right then either do bass or

    Harmony second right like so and only at

    the very end do you think about Melody

    and I think that that reflects sort of

    broader Trends in music right now as it

    like kind of de-emphasizing Melody yeah

    so it's like more consistent with a lot

    of a lot of the music that kids are

    familiar with and also because it's like

    harder to code Melody than it is to code

    like say a chord progression but also

    because like a melody I think often I

    mean I know people start with Melody a

    lot of composition but to me like a

    melody kind of emerges out of that that

    intersection of the chords and the the

    beat that you're using and then the

    melody can kind of emerge out of that

    and you know anyway that's that's kind

    of like the direction that we're we're

    thinking about this yeah every

    composition I've done has been different

    in terms of sometimes I might start with

    one or another or or like just piecemeal

    together or it all comes like there's no

    here is how I come up with composition

    it's just like writing a paper I mean

    like an academic paper I it's not like

    you start from the intro and then like

    work your way through it like there's so

    many different ways to go about it so

    one of the things that I've really been

    fascinated with over time is like how

    people iterate on their abilities

    related to the things that they do in

    their career so like your abilities as

    an educator or as a researcher or an

    author Etc like how have you tried to

    either iterate on it or just like

    practice it to improve in those

    different areas interesting like I came

    into Academia from a computer science

    background and one thing that I did not

    get at all was like formal training and

    social science research methods right so

    it's like how do you conduct interviews

    how do you analyze interviews how do you

    collect field nodes how do you make

    sense of video data and like I just did

    not have that and you know you kind of

    get thrown into a space where you know

    you need to be able to like a research

    needs to be able to take data and learn

    from it in a way that's like that

    preserves Integrity right like that you

    you were honestly trying to learn from

    the data that you've collected on this

    is like a typical like qualitative you

    know approach to research that was

    something like I'm really fortunate to

    be at a place where I'm surrounded by

    like brilliant students and I learn from

    them you know like kind of doing things

    together learn from colleagues read

    examples but it's like definitely not so

    it's something you really have to work

    hard at to learn and pushing myself as a

    writer like you know you read certain

    authors like well I mean I think Seymour

    password is like a is an example right

    uh or someone like Don Norman these are

    older examples but like or you know more

    recently like uh the work of nylon this

    year like there are certain authors that

    you read their work and you're just like

    wow they have you you start to recognize

    the craft of writing and like how how

    powerful they are as communicators of

    ideas and so you know just like dress

    and dress and drafts of like writing

    that I'll rip up and like you know

    iterate on and and sort of like

    developing writing as a discipline is

    something that just like and it also

    gets you get rusty right as a writer

    just like you get rusty as a musician

    and um you know so just like it involves

    practice and keeping charge do you have

    a process for like the papers you write

    I I asked like as an example one of my

    mentors had a process where like each

    day of the week he would work on a

    different project and so he would be he

    would have five projects going on

    simultaneously and it gave him that

    incubation time so that on Monday he

    only thought about that project for

    Monday and then he had a whole week to

    think about it even though he's working

    on other stuff and then he come back to

    it but then I had other professors and

    like myself where I just like go all in

    on one thing and just do that Non-Stop

    and then when I finish that move on to

    the next thing yeah I'm definitely not

    that structured although I do I do sort

    of feel like I go through phases where

    like right now I'm in a software

    development phase or right now I'm in a

    curriculum development phase or right

    now I'm in a writing phase or right now

    I'm in a data analysis phase I'm I'm

    like you get really you still have all

    of the other life things going on so you

    can't like just throw yourself into it

    like you know you could as a grad

    student but you get really annoyed when

    things are distracting you from like

    writing or like you know coding or

    whatever it is but I do think there are

    times of day that like are good for

    there's times a day that are good for

    writing like that's like morning I write

    on paper I write like I'll go on walks

    like I write really well when I'm when

    I'm moving so I'll go on walks with like

    like a legal pad and a pen and people

    think I'm some sort of random inspector

    and they get really like freaked out

    that there's this like weird guy walking

    around like bopping and writing notes

    but like that's how I that's how I write

    first drafts and then like coding is

    something I do well at in the like

    afternoon evening like for whatever

    reason meetings uh mid-afternoon you

    know so this kind of like there's

    definitely like you find ways to impose

    structure when you can but you sort of

    have to or otherwise I think you're just

    responding to email all day right no no

    good for anyone right which you're

    you're definitely touching on the the

    next question that I want to ask like

    every guess but like how do you prevent

    the burnout that can come with the

    pressures of like working as a scholar I

    mean I think it's just really hard I see

    this you know happening like people just

    throw themselves into work like there's

    no other you know there's nothing else

    that's important in life it's really

    hard because you can like if you're not

    actively trying to prevent it like avoid

    it like our culture is just geared and

    it's not just Academia like I think it's

    any you know any number of different

    kinds of jobs that are just sort of

    geared up to burn you out as quickly as

    possible unless you are actively working

    to prevent it and so like part of me is

    like kind of figuring out like there are

    things I really really love about my job

    I love teaching I love working with

    students I love going into fifth grade

    classrooms I really like writing when I

    can you know like and so just

    recognizing the things that like really

    bring you Joy making sure that you have

    time to do those things which and but

    it's hard it's really hard to avoid

    burnout and yeah I don't know how do you

    avoid burnout oh so many different

    approaches it's one of the reasons why

    like each guest is because I want to

    learn from them so I can figure it out

    like you're mentioning the the thinking

    time while walking so I use the Pomodoro

    method where I'll work for 50 minutes

    five zero minutes and then I'll take a

    just be on my treadmill and I might

    listen to a podcast or listen to music

    or like play a video game um because I

    have a like a TV mounted on it things

    like that just to give me that time to

    move because I'm the kind of person

    where if I don't set an alarm I won't

    stop working and then I'll be like oh

    wow I haven't eaten in a few hours and

    it's like dark outside and I didn't even

    realize that right so there's that

    there's just like setting very clear

    boundaries with like at this time of day

    I'm going to stop working on this thing

    and like focus on like hanging out with

    my wife Etc yeah yeah I have to be very

    structured like you'll notice while I

    was like in this conversation I was

    drinking a liquid salad like that makes

    it so that I don't have to sit down and

    eat I can just like drink my lunch while

    having a conversation like things like

    this just little things that make it so

    it saved me five ten minutes here or

    there it all adds up in the end so that

    I can be more intentional with my time

    my energy my attention Etc throughout

    the day I don't think this is right but

    I think that that the burden of avoiding

    burnout is is on the individuals who are

    you know that it's rare that you find a

    job that's structurally supports you in

    life

    not getting burnt out and the social

    problem was like if I just did what I

    was contractually obligated to do I

    don't think I would feel burnt out but I

    love doing all of these other things and

    I throw myself into projects and like

    and I think that that's the danger also

    being a creative person is that you know

    we get excited about building things and

    doing things and creating things and

    then like and that's all on top of

    everything else and I think I don't I

    don't have good solutions for you what

    do you wish there's more research on

    that can inform you on practices I mean

    going back to the equity issue right

    like in the inclusion issue like I think

    we've been banging our heads against

    this wall for 40 years and your your

    comments about sort of like hello

    illness Tendencies is is real and so

    when like when we talk about things like

    Outreach programs it very much assumes a

    framework in which we are saying like

    why aren't you coming to our party like

    we have a party going on you should be

    here like so come to our party right

    like we'll pay you to come to our party

    like you know and it's not acknowledging

    that like people maybe don't want to be

    in your your you know your party and and

    of course there's tons of great research

    going on in this that I feel like I

    don't think we figured it out quite yet

    at least not for computer science but if

    we're talking about we're going back to

    CS education like I think that's and so

    many you know like it's this thing that

    we were talking about before we started

    where the minute you put something in

    school it can be the coolest thing ever

    but like the minute it's in in a

    classroom and you're you have to do it

    you're compelled to do it because the

    teacher said so we kill the not

    exclusively like they're great teachers

    that there's I think of uh for many kids

    in which CS raw movements getting Cs and

    you know see us as a graduation

    requirements in many cases that has done

    more harm than good in terms of getting

    people excited about computer science

    and not exclusively right like I'm not

    talking about everything but I think

    that there has been you know their harm

    done there so like understanding I think

    Frameworks or understanding engagement

    are pretty lacking I think that we as

    computer science in particular

    constructionism has been like a very

    prominent framework and I I think

    constructionism does a great job of

    describing my own personal experience of

    computer science I think it describes a

    fraction of its experiences with

    computer science and does not do a good

    job of describing the experience of many

    many other students and sort of having

    other Frameworks that kind of help us

    understand it can't be the only way that

    you develop a love of a field there have

    to be other ways to go about it and so I

    kind of kind of believe that we need to

    sort of have richer descriptions of

    trajectories and Pathways yeah in the

    learning Sciences in particular there's

    like there's like people who really

    focus on my cognitive load Theory and

    really focusing on like what are the

    learning outcomes and and that side of

    things but then on the other end of the

    pers the spectrum is like educational

    psychologists who focus on motivation

    and things like that and I think having

    that merger of the two would be

    beneficial yeah I think that that's I

    think that that's right yeah like again

    a lot more longitudinal success stories

    I think would be really would be really

    valuable to have you know kind of it's

    easy to look and I'm guilty of this too

    it's like we can evaluate a summer

    program and talk about the experience of

    kids in the summer program but we don't

    know what happens to them the next year

    or the year after that or the year after

    that did this did this experience matter

    and for whom did it matter yeah that's

    more common practice for other domains

    like I've done a lot of Grant reviews

    for like the Department of Education and

    they have that data on here's our impact

    not only for this semester but like how

    students are doing five years from now

    and like that's fantastic but there's

    just not enough of that when it comes to

    learning like a lot of that was related

    to some like other domain and we've

    successfully avoided saying artificial

    intelligence this entire interview but I

    do think that that's like a big you know

    that's obviously a big question kind of

    going forward is like what are what are

    we trying to do if we're talking about

    you know sort of Computer Science

    Education kind of re-examining like what

    are the goals here and why you know yeah

    I mean if five ten years from now you

    can just give verbal commands to a

    machine and it writes it for you like a

    program are we gonna need to know the

    the day-to-day like little details one I

    think in music it's a good example of

    like you know I can say hey compose

    something in this genre like you know

    this genre would you know this kind of

    feeling and the Machine creates a fully

    fleshed out you know three minute pop

    song that sounds amazing like what is my

    motivation as a human being to and great

    engage in the you know creative process

    myself right like I don't know how much

    I'm concerned about that but I you know

    it does yeah just understanding

    motivation like what level of fidelity

    do kids need to sort of feel excited and

    proud and like want to explore deeper

    and their words so very early on in this

    podcast I did a little mini series on

    modding and mod culture and one of the

    things that they one of the studies

    talked about was they found that

    students were more motivated engaged Etc

    when they were modding a video game

    rather than creating a video game from a

    blank slate and I think that's going to

    happen with like just creating in

    general not just in the Arts but like

    hey chat gpt12 do this thing for me and

    I'm going to modify it to actually make

    it sound even better in the way that I

    want but you're just gonna get rid of

    the the boring work for me but who knows

    we'll see a decade from now yeah no

    that's actually really interesting and

    we're certainly thinking about that in

    terms of music and it's like you know

    like can you give me pieces that I can

    modify and like you know customize and

    make my own but I do Wonder like what

    the motivation structure is going to

    look like for her people yeah what's

    something that you're working on that a

    listener might be able to help with what

    comes to mind as you were mentioning

    like it's hard finding music educators

    like that could be a simple hey if you

    know music educators reach out and

    everything if you're a music educator or

    like you know or you know music

    educators reach out we have you know

    curriculum that we've been developing

    for several years that we're trying to

    get into like a form that we'll have

    online because it's like not really

    publicly available and just working with

    Educators so like Educators who are

    excited about you know trying something

    that maybe is like a little different I

    really really believe in participatory

    design with teachers I think it's like

    pretty much the only way to go it's like

    when you're co-designing stuff because I

    I don't understand your needs as an

    educator I don't understand fully the

    need the trajectory of kids like I I see

    you know the fifth graders I'm working

    with now like I see them once a week for

    broader context that they're living

    through day to day and like so just

    being able to partner with Educators is

    like it's really it's like something

    that gets me really excited so yeah

    that's a great example of kind of

    something that I would be looking for do

    you have any questions for myself or to

    the field at large so you've talked to

    tons of people like what's the thing

    that's like you're getting really

    excited about when I first really

    started getting into to CS education it

    was like 2017 when I started doing it

    full time and kind of viewing myself as

    a CS educator like before that I was

    just kind of dabbling in it as like an

    Arts educator music educator I've seen a

    broadening of this course where

    originally it was more like years what

    project-based learning is like very like

    introductory like education 100 level

    course kind of discussions but now

    several years later we're like really

    getting into yeah but what does

    representation look like how does this

    like compare to other forms of

    addressing gaps in equity Etc or what

    are the nuances with this pedagogical

    approach compared to other pedagogical

    approach when would you use one over

    another Etc I feel like the field is is

    maturing more and is starting to pull

    scholarship from other domains and

    actually looking at it in CS education

    because there has been a tendency no

    offense to well-intentioned Scholars to

    kind of look at this from like a blank

    slate and go well this is his new thing

    a new subject area and we're going to

    look at this and try and figure things

    out as opposed to looking at other

    domains like math education which has

    been around for a wee bit longer and

    going well what are the the Frameworks

    the lenses the things the topics that

    they are using or exploring discussing

    and how might that inform our own work

    etc and I think those conversations are

    like becoming more commonplace so we're

    getting more perspectives and more depth

    and that like excites me to see that

    that's awesome yeah are there any topics

    that we haven't asked or that I haven't

    asked that you'd like to discuss we're

    kind of thinking about like elevating

    coding to performance art and there's

    been kind of like a sort of nascent live

    coding scene that's out there but you

    know my my real thing is like I wanna I

    wanna imagine like what would it look

    like to mash up a robotics competitions

    with a poetry slam and sort of create

    something completely new and different

    that's like kid teams teams of kids are

    coming up with their laptops and they're

    improvising you know musical performance

    using python code and like to sort of

    bring in the the cultural identity

    dimensions of poetry slams with the sort

    of technical engineering dimensions of

    Robotics competitions and sort of like

    imagine something completely different

    yeah it'd be fun but I have no idea how

    to accomplish that what it would look

    like but yeah I don't know if you've

    spoken with a Sam Marin but like talking

    about the algor Rave scene and all that

    like get some ideas there I have not

    talked to Sammy Aaron but yeah that's

    kind of a genre shifted version of the

    Opera red scene would be it would be

    really exciting and interesting where

    might people go to connect with you in

    the organizations that you work with

    people are always welcome to email me or

    you can go to pinpad.com and contact us

    through that and I'm I'm really excited

    to talk to people so feel free to reach

    out I'm on Twitter at Oren Michael we'll

    include it in the thing but that's

    virtually how to get a hold of me and

    I'll make sure you include links to all

    that in the show notes at Jared

    o'leary.com if you enjoyed this and of

    you consider sharing with somebody else

    or simply leaving a review on whatever

    app you're listening to this on it just

    helps more people find the free content

    that I create at jaredollary.com stay

    tuned next week for another episode

    until then I hope you're all staying

    safe and are having a wonderful

Guest Bio

Michael Horn is a Professor of Computer Science and Learning Sciences at Northwestern University where he directs the Tangible Interaction Design and Learning (TIDAL) Lab. Michael serves as the Program Coordinator for the Learning Sciences PhD Program at Northwestern and is co-Founder of the new Joint PhD Program in Computer Science and Learning Sciences. He is also co-editor-in-chief of the International Journal of Child-Computer Interaction and an associate editor for the Journal of the Learning Sciences. Michael's research explores the use of interactive technology in the design of innovative learning experiences. He takes a cautious but optimistic stance towards technology in a process that tightly couples research and design. His work has been exhibited at museums around the world including the California Academy of Sciences (San Francisco), the Museum of Science (Boston), the Field Museum (Chicago), and the Computer History Museum (Silicon Valley). Michael's research on tangible programming has contributed to the commercial products: Osmo Coding and Kibo Robotics. More recently Michael's team at Northwestern has created TunePad, a platform for communities of learners to create and share music using python coding. Michael earned his Ph.D. in Computer Science at Tufts University working in the Human-Computer Interaction Lab and the Developmental Technologies research group. He received his undergraduate degree in Computer Science from Brown University and has worked as a software engineer for several companies including Classroom Connect and iRobot Corporation.

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