Intersections of Cultural Capital with Kimberly Scott
In this interview with Kimberly Scott, we discuss some of the problems with discourse around grit, students as techno-social change agents, teaching with culturally responsive approaches in communities that are hostile toward culturally responsive pedagogies, unpacking discourse and Discourse, considering both present and future identities when teaching, potential disconnects between theory and practice with intersectional work, comforting the disturbed and disturbing the comforted, and so much more.
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Welcome back to another episode of the
CSK8 podcast my name is jared o'leary
each week of this podcast is either a
solo episode where i unpack some
scholarship in relation to computer
science education or an interview with a
guest or multiple guests in this week's
interview i'm having a conversation with
kimberly scott and we discuss some of
the problems with discourse around grit
students as techno social change agents
teaching with culturally responsive
approaches in communities that are
hostile toward culturally responsive
pedagogies unpacking discourse and
discourse that's with a lowercase d and
an uppercase d considering both present
and future identities when teaching
potential disconnects between theory and
practice with intersectional work
comforting the disturbed and
disturbingly comforted and so much more
as always the show notes includes links
to other podcasts resources mentioned in
this particular episode you can find
that at jared o'leary.com or by clicking
the link in the app that you're
listening to this on on my website you
will find a bunch of computer science
drumming and gaming content there's
literally several hundred hours worth of
content on my website so if you haven't
checked it out yet i recommend it and
while you're there make sure you check
out the free coding curriculum that i
developed for boot up professional
development which you can find at boot
up pd.org but with all that being said
we will now begin with an introduction
by kimberly i am kimberly scott
i'm a professor at arizona state
university in the school of social
transformation my administrative role is
as founding executive director of the
center for gender equity in science and
technology and most recently i have
assumed a new role as the senior
faculty fellow at the arizona state
university foundation i'm curious what
kind of social transformation do you
strive for
in your work or research or just
everyday way of being that's a good
question i used to say
i
am trying to harness all of my energies
my capital to
not necessarily
get more girls of color to populate a
flawed system but instead to provide
girls of color what i mean by that is
african american native american latinx
as well as latina alaska native girls to
have the resources and the experiences
to create a more equitable system i'm
really mindful of efforts that are
blaming our daughters for not succeeding
in environments that are not only flawed
but that are hostile that are
consistently requiring them to put on
what i write about in my book an
astronaut suit that they're supposed to
survive
and
thrive in contexts that they are really
not welcome i used to say i want to blow
up the system perhaps because as i go
further into my 50s i'm more interested
in again what do we
need to create a new system and my
argument is we need to work with our
daughters and our allies so that they
can create the new system sustainably
scalably and intentionally so at the
time of this recording a couple weeks
ago i did a unpacking scholarship
episode where i talked about your
publication with elliot that used like
sharecropping as a metaphor for the new
labor system and it was fascinating to
think through the different lenses that
you were basically
presenting in that so if anyone hasn't
listened to that i recommend and then
going and actually reading the paper
itself it's really interesting thinking
of okay so if we are promoting
marginalized underrepresented
communities to go into this system we
need to also look at the system that is
problematic and do something to actually
address that so i really appreciate that
publication oh that was a lot of fun to
work on
dr elliott and i
took a couple of years to get to the
point of putting that on paper and what
i'm hoping to do in my next book which
will be book number five is to really
unpack not only that piece actually the
name of the book is why does disparity
continue for women of color and stem and
i'm drawing on my sociological
background to answer that question
through a series of essays and that
piece about sharecropping is one that i
will use as a platform for a chapter
to talk about
how this goes back to
something i studied many many moons ago
as a student at rutgers in terms of
false consciousness and how
the system seems to set up these
patterns these trends these strategies
these efforts so it seems desirable as
we said in that piece it seems like you
want to increase your coding skills when
in actuality it's not going to be a
liberatory move
towards any type of transformation it's
simply going to increase the proletariat
class so one of the things that i read
in your book that really stood out was
kind of problematizing some of the
inadequacies of the positive psychology
movement and in particular like you
mentioned that grit can become
problematic when it is teaching us to
basically adhere to some of the
hegemonic structures that are oppressing
people i'm wondering if you could
elaborate on that yeah i've seen too
many examples where individuals use the
concept of grit to substantiate why
certain populations are not successful
or why certain populations are
successful so for instance i was at a
meeting very recently and the focus was
on women of color and tech and someone
asked during the meeting well what about
asian american women the person went on
to say that asian american women tend to
do really well in tech so really what
are we talking about the implication was
will they have the grit to do well and i
responded in saying several things most
of which comes from
the significance that i identify using
intersectionality as a framework to
really make sense of systemic oppression
my response was first of all which asian
american women are we talking about i
used to live in southeast asia and in
fact when i was there i was working in a
rehabilitation center was called that
for
young women who had been sold into
slavery or the sex trade and i know
from my not only my experience there but
also looking at the literature if we're
talking about southeast asian women and
then break this down in terms of we're
talking about hmong we're talking about
laotian and where their experiences are
are they in rural midwest u.s are they
in northeast we see in the data that
even though they are members of this
very large category asian american they
tend not to do very well by traditional
means as it relates to text so that was
one response i gave and then the other
thing i said is well how are we defining
success and that i talked about in the
book and right before this conversation
i was looking i still keep in contact
via facebook with a lot of the girls
who are now women who appear in that
book and we communicate and we we
celebrate each other and i said many of
them are not in traditional stem fields
but i would argue they are technical
social change agents
meaning they are using their
skills they're using their computational
thinking to improve their communities
in some fantastic way they understand
that for the most part we're measuring
success
based on how many black and brown female
bodies are going into
traditional tech fields they're aware of
this and on one hand they've made a
conscious decision some of them like i
don't want to go there why am i going to
subject myself
to this type of abuse some people call
it microaggressions we tend to just in
my program just called straight out
abuse and so they've made the decision
of saying i'm going to go in this
direction i'm either going to create my
own space through a consulting agency
some of them have done that or i'm going
to go in politics one young lady i'm
thinking of she did that very purposely
but she says i want to change policy at
the broad level the macro level so i
know i said a lot of things that
hopefully speak to some of the things
you were asking me about what kind of
changes are
they hoping to make as a techno social
change agent like if where to double
click on the person who is going into
politics what are they hoping to
change about society and technology in
the world that young woman she wants
hopefully she's listening because she
knows who she is first of all she wants
to better educate policy makers in terms
of systemic inequities i love that but
she also realizes she has to understand
how the system works if she wants to
create a new one i get chills thinking
of that that's brilliant one young woman
she
wanted to work more at the local level
so she was very much invested i think i
brought this up in the book in terms of
working with head start programs but she
was a product of a head start program
and more specifically helping them with
their digital presence another young
woman she's in her phd program and she
is interestingly enough doing
anthropology another young woman who i
keep in a lot of context she's a teacher
and she's made it very very clear
that she wants to teach the next
several generations how to become techno
social change agents so
you know quick answer your question it
varies but i think the common thread
that is pulsing through all of these
narratives is that they want to make an
impact that is sustainable so how can we
encourage and model that kind of
ontology or way of being within schools
you know i'll be honest it's a herculean
task to think about this and it has to
do with changing the system and a piece
that i'm working on with my colleague we
were talking just about how do we better
integrate culturally responsive
principles
into our k-12 system right now we do
know for instance new york state
department of education they have now
implemented a culturally responsive
sustaining framework that is amazing and
they've called on
the leading scholars who have written
about culturally responsive and
sustaining to help craft the framework
and they're at the point now of saying
let's be intentional of how we're going
to integrate this framework that to me
is a fantastic model that we should pay
attention to in other states that
haven't taken this bold move as well as
measure its effects i think also how do
we do this we need to be really mindful
not only of thinking of the end product
but the means by which we get there so
what i mean by that is there's a lot of
emphasis on okay we want to have culture
responsive practices whether it be
culturally responsive computational
thinking of culturally responsive
sustaining pedagogical practices we want
to have them and we want to have them by
way of creating these products curricula
experiences professional development the
list goes on and on but i am
mindful of thinking about the process by
which we get to those products and i'm
beginning to think about
how can we use culturally responsiveness
as a framework to
poke collaborations
how can we think about culturally
responsive collaboration so that we are
not cannibalizing or colonializing
marginalized communities work in a way
that's going to disenfranchise them and
again reinforce a hierarchical system so
what i'm seeing unfortunately is like
there are organizations that are saying
i want to do quote-unquote good i want
to be socially responsible i want to
support social justice initiatives and
depending upon the organization they may
say okay just here's a whole bunch of
money organization x do what you want
well this leads to what i'm currently
involved in as foundation fellow
what we're seeing is more and more
there's been no change in terms of
white-led organizations getting the same
amount of money even if they have no
background in culturally responsive or
racial justice anything they're still
getting money and less so for women and
people of color-led organizations and so
one of the things that we need in order
for this to be
different is that if you're talking
about grant making organizations or
donors
they need to do something differently in
terms of funding their habitus
and their way of thinking their habits
of mind needs to be transformed in order
to fund differently that's one example
if we think about some other
organizations that are saying i want to
do things differently so i'm going to
implement implicit bias trainings and
then they
co-opt some implicit bias training
without asking for
has this particular training been used
on populations that i actually do want
to engage
and so i'm seeing just really bizarre
haphazard
approaches
in the name of social justice being
adopted so i i'm saying that if we're
really going to do something we need to
be intentional we need to think about
culturally responsive in different terms
about collaboration and we need to
question ourselves so for anyone who
hasn't listened to it i'll include links
to this in the show notes but i do
unpack k-por center's culturally
responsive sustaining cs framework so
that's what's being discussed here but
then also there's a paper at a recent
respect conference that used their
bodugian lens to look at habitus and
things like that in cs interventions so
if people are unfamiliar with those
terms check out those episodes that'll
unpack it more but i imagine it'll make
sense with like some of these follow-up
questions that i have but i'm curious
how does this idea and this kind of way
of being fit into systems like ap for
students or certification for teachers
in terms of having a social impact those
kind of things aren't necessarily easily
standardized and measured and what not
and quantified and put into systems like
that like for example a really awesome
social impact for an individual might be
to be less racist and understand their
biases and whatnot but then
an impact that you might have within a
community might be like some kind of a
positive influence or impact in the
community like creating support systems
etc but those things don't necessarily
fit
well within our current educational
system so what can we do to do these
more culturally relevant practices when
we have these systems that kind of are
focused on the content knowledge and not
necessarily the social impact i think
the policy makers i'm talking about the
policymakers for education standards
they need to
rethink reform transform the standards i
think that there needs to be a
culturally responsive standard required
and there needs to be a way to measure
it i mean i was a classroom teacher in
what was called a special needs district
and i remember the pressure and this was
well before high stakes testing and its
current iterations but i remember the
pressure that i felt as a teacher in a
high needs district because we're judged
by not how well
a young person feels a sense of
belonging in a context not how well a
young person has created an initiative
to
help other homeless people in their
context but instead are they up to grade
level in math unless we have
standards about culturally responsive
learning then nothing's going to really
change can anything really change right
what could teacher education programs
and professional development programs
kind of do to
help teachers facilitate these
techno-social change agents that's a
hard question because the teacher
education programs to their credit are
preparing teachers to be
effective in a system that has standards
that are anti-culturally responsive yeah
so
unless
the policies change teacher education
can do nothing now it could be so maybe
that's a very dark way of looking at
things or
and it is it is i'm sorry you know there
are examples of a few teacher education
programs that have beautifully
integrated culturally responsive
teaching into their practices my
university arizona state they have
several teacher education scholars who
have expertise in this area and that is
fantastic but there's a host of research
about teacher self-efficacy and
culturally responsive and throughout the
research i just looked at it two days
ago two things we see one teachers
do not feel in any way shape or form
efficacious or an increase of their
self-efficacy to implement culturally
responsiveness even after professional
development and they don't feel
that even if they go through a
culturally responsive professional
development so these are in-service
teachers they feel like it's affected
their self-efficacy in general so to me
there's a gap between
teachers having the opportunity to say
if i can teach in a culturally
responsive and sustaining way i should
feel more self-efficacious
and if i do then i will have a greater
impact on my students
but that impact may not be
reflected or even picked up in the
standardized testing as we know it the
self-efficacy thing is an important
thing to consider but then there's also
the political pressures involved with if
you do anything that is labeled as crt
among
some communities then you could get
fired literally lose your job for doing
that so like i'm curious if you have
recommendations for that like there's a
professor that i know who recommended
something called sas small acts of
subversion and so an example of that
might be oh well i'm not doing
culturally relevant teaching i'm doing
interest driven teaching like it's the
same thing they would have done they're
just labeling something different yeah
like do you have recommendations for
teachers who are afraid if they're
teaching in those communities where it's
hostile toward these approaches yeah you
know i'm glad you bring that up because
the struggle is real and i love that
fast and i think that's a really
important way to go to to code it
differently so it can be heard by those
who
are more unwilling to listen
and you know what the model is there so
if we take that example out of teaching
again in my more recent work i was
troubled by not seeing especially
among
community foundations i was troubled by
not seeing a statistically significant
number of solicitations that called out
specifically
women of color girls of color my
hypothesis was oh my goodness it's
community foundations they're not
necessarily subject to
you know federal obligations they can
kind of do what they want so this is
where i'm gonna find some cutting edge
bold language no
but what i have learned in my research
is that many incredibly agile and adept
foundations have coded their
solicitations so that at the end of the
day women of color girls of color or
other racialized and marginalized groups
are the recipients of the support they
really need they do so by coding the
language differently they don't say
women of colored girls with code they
may say they don't even say
underrepresented so we are interested in
supporting let's say communities
that frequent the food bank well if we
look at statistics in a particular given
area that may mean
a certain racial engendered group yeah
that's interesting it's amazing the
impact of discourse exactly and so i
think that you know clearly it's not
working simply
maintaining in our silos and trying to
reconcile and resolve disparity i am
deeply interested in disparity as is
manifested in stem writ large technology
in particular it's clearly not working
in fact the data are clear in some cases
it's gone backwards and i'll talk about
that more specifically but you know it's
not working saying okay computer
scientist you figure out disparity right
it's not working social scientists you
figure it out we need an
interdisciplinary approach but to your
point about discourse i
am consistently engaged in and leading
interdisciplinary initiatives and it
takes time for us to create a common
language going back to my point earlier
about collaboration it takes a fair
amount of time to work across
disciplines and we're all perhaps
invested in doing the work but because
we've been so siloed i have met so many
barriers and obstacles and it's been a
question of language like you said
saying critical race theories is bad
right for so many people but if i say
let's be really student focused and
think about community improvement
through reflective means that's
considerably more digestible so i took a
discourse analysis class from james paul
g at arizona state and
he's really well known professor for a
variety of things but one of the things
he likes to talk about is the difference
between lowercase
discourse and uppercase discourse and
the lowercase would be like the talk the
text the speech etc but the uppercase is
like how you present yourself so the way
that you dress the way that you engage
in things and from hearing that like
it's interesting looking at like for
example i go to research conferences and
i hear people talking about low
socioeconomic status individuals and how
it's difficult for them to engage in
conversations with researchers etc but i
look at what people wear at these
conferences and it's mimicking ceos and
upper-class elites and so it's like well
there's a disconnect between what we are
saying and how we are presenting
ourselves if we really wanted people
from low socioeconomic status to be able
to participate in these discussions why
are we separating themselves by putting
on these fancy suits etc so it's
interesting looking at not only what
people are saying but how our actions
and our ways of being aligned with or
diverge from what we are saying yeah you
know one of my earlier pieces you're
reminding me was on culturally
responsive research and i tell in that
case study
the story and it was true
that i was a youngish scholar meaning i
was early in my career and i was seeking
access to a particular district that was
predominantly african-american and so
the assumption would be well kim you're
african-american so you're going to be
able to get in more easily well that was
not the case and i found out through
lots of different means why i had so
many issues getting in part of it had to
do with social class the perception of
me
being not of the same social class
as the majority in that particular
district the other thing though is age
i tend to present younger than i am and
at the time gosh i was in my early 30s
they didn't think i could do the project
that i was proposed the other thing was
gender i had at least one male graduate
assistant and it was automatically
assumed that he was really in charge and
that
we as a team had just put forward my
face
to
appease the leaders in the district
interesting it wasn't until
there was someone in the district who
happened to be a student of mine and it
wasn't until i revealed to him i was
having challenges so right there that
gets into another issue of power that i
was willing to show my vulnerability
to
what became a fantastic gatekeeper and i
shared with him my troubles he said he
called me doc he said doc i got you let
me take care of it a week later he
didn't get the doors open but he got me
a meeting with people who could have
opened the doors and in that meeting it
wasn't until again i revealed several
parts of my identity such as
i am the product of
a household
where my father was a pastor in an
african-american church i did reveal my
age
and
i don't remember what i wore
but i didn't have my wedding ring on a
day for whatever reason and it was
during that 90-minute meeting that then
the gatekeeper was like let me tell you
why we didn't let you in and that's
where i found out so it's all these i
mean we talk about intersectionality and
we talk about it in terms of
disaggregation of identities but we need
to also think about in terms of power
context social categories interpersonal
uh domains and so many other elements
that seem to be missing yeah earlier at
the start of the interview you mentioned
cultural capital these are all examples
of that if people aren't familiar with
it and again that podcast that talks
about bordeaux is a great place to like
learn more about that it is interesting
the intersections not only of the
identities and capital and how the
different types of capital and how those
can kind of impact things like i
intentionally don't use the term doctor
because i don't want to separate myself
from teachers and students but when
speaking to some admin and to other
professors then sometimes i need to use
the term to be like hey i know how to do
research so it's interesting
how we position ourselves
depending on the context and whatnot
yeah absolutely when when i remember i
was teaching an undergraduate class and
i do this for every undergraduate class
i would say you know i don't want to
know what you did friday night but i am
pretty sure how you behave friday night
is how you're not behaving at this exact
moment
and i said but it's still you right and
they would say yes i said so let's talk
about the influence of context on that
and the same thing flipping it around
again when i was early in my academic
career
i did this experiment that i know if
you're a professor listening some of you
may have done i would go into class the
first day and sit with the students
and i wasn't dressed in any particular
way and i would wait 10 minutes after
the class was supposed to start and i
would do that to see what were they
saying what were they thinking about how
long could i push it and then i would
stand up
and say all right we're going to get
started
actually i remember i did that one year
in a teacher education program
pre-service education program and i
became very close to that class and by
the end of the semester
several of them came to me and they said
we thought you were indian and i said
why did you think i was indian and this
was in the early 2000s it was their own
biases
and perceptions of all of those
markers that we used for identity
and capital i was a sociologist of
education i studied my boulder i studied
my
i studied my foucault i did philosophy
of education so i'm so interested in how
those concepts apply and play out today
yeah the
you sitting with the students is is
funny and it reminds me of i've seen the
opposite of that where like a student at
the start of class will just go up and
like write like i'm dr blah blah on the
board and then the actual professor will
come and be like wait who are you and
they just like run away like oh
that's pretty funny when you were
talking about identity it reminded me of
a section in the book where you're
talking about how it's important for
educators to design and facilitate for
not only present identities but future
identities and i wonder if you could
expand upon that yeah that was one of
those
concepts that i was trying really hard
to again go back to my philosophy is i
think that many of us because we get so
caught up in the here and now that we
are constrained by the future or rather
our perceptions of the future and we use
our current understanding of the here
and now and assume it will be
sustained and will always be and i was
trying to say that we as educators we
need to not be constrained we need to
emancipate ourselves by these
constraints and not say well if you're
acting like an anti-social defiant
teenager you're probably going to grow
up to be an anti-social defiant teenager
plus having those beliefs are always
raced always genderized anyway i was
trying to say that let's encourage
teachers to not only recognize what they
think or know about students but to
really engage in reflective activities
themselves to think how did i come to
know this why do i think this where's
the veracity into this and how does it
influence the future self or my
perception of this individual's future
self more than likely especially with
when we're working with marginalized
groups they're negative
yeah that reminds me a lot of it's a
combination of ipsitive assessment with
curare which is like this reflection of
yourself as in a journey so one of the
things that i do with kids when they'd
finish a project they would reflect on
how their project differed from where
they were previously their
understandings and then reflect on where
they wanted to go next with it and to
recognize that it's always this process
of continuing to learn more and
it's important to look at where you've
come from and the things that you've
learned while also still planning ahead
well said thank you when exploring
intersectionality i've noticed a
tendency for some educators to start to
tokenize or essentialize
entire groups of people so for example
somebody might look at my intersections
and go oh well you're white and you're
non-binary and so therefore i'm going to
treat you as all the other white like
trans community individuals and i'm
wondering if you have some
recommendations on how educators can
engage in intersectional work without
those problems of over generalizing yeah
i think that
educators
need to spend and it's very challenging
because we don't have infinite amounts
of time
but
in listening to the narratives of
participants um i think that
and this is important intersectionality
standpoint theory and how we need to
valorize the standpoints
of individuals
i want to take a step backwards i think
because we know that many teachers end
up teaching in communities that resemble
where
they come from and so
we should be asking teachers to engage
in
work that not only valorizes a multitude
of narratives but also represents the
intragroup differences along narrative
lines i'm wondering if you could
elaborate on the story of miguel from
your book and how that relates to
this work so for context for people who
haven't read the book yet miguel was a
teacher who on paper understood what
needed to be done the intersectional
work like just really got it on paper
but then in practice when actually tried
to do it and met with resistance like
basically gave up and was like well i
can't do this thing even though like
going into the work seemed like oh yeah
miguel will be perfect for this and then
when actually trying it out just had
this almost like a fixed mindset of oh
well i can't work with them
you know that anecdote taught me a lot
you know in all transparency
i remember giving the recommendation to
the girls and the girls also saying well
maybe if we just spoke to him in his
native language that that would be okay
we would be able to bridge the gap
between what we want to do and what he's
hoping to help us to do the assumption
was language was just going to make
everything okay and that was not the
case right you know and unfortunately
i've seen other instances where there's
this
disconnect this hostile divorce between
theory and practice
i think that going back to your question
about teacher education programs there
needs to be many more occasions where
pre-service teachers can
apply and see theory practice practice
can also think about and problem solve
the issues i think that
in that case yeah i had high hopes and i
think the students did as well
that he was going to get it and i think
i failed in terms of providing him
sufficient support to say
these are some of the issues you may
come up on let's problem solve
proactively how we might be able to
address them without you walking off i
mean he like so many of us felt as if
the hard work was going to be done by
the students and not him being a
culturally responsive pedagogue is hard
work and i said this in the book it's
hard work it's a lot of work and to
believe that it's only the kids who have
to do the work again goes back to this
deficit approach or to the point i said
earlier like well you just need more
grit you'll be fine right yeah if anyone
hasn't listened to it yet i do
a four-part mini-series um paulo
ferreira's book pedagogy of the
oppressed and it's chapter three in
particular that talks about dialogue if
i remember correctly so that is very
important to consider
in context like this where you need to
engage in a dialogue in a way that you
are open to and willing to change and
not just trying to colonize somebody
else's way of being or values etc so
it's important when engaging in
culturally relevant responsive
sustaining practices that it's not
coming down top down like you are trying
to fix or change etc but you are also
looking inward and going oh these are
areas in my own growth that i need to
work through and along those lines it
should not be the responsibility of the
marginalized to do the education of
those who need to go through the process
you know we started talking about this i
am committed to establishing systems
not necessarily educating individuals on
how
my individual black femaleness
should be conceived instead i want to
put energy in how do i collectively
because i can't do it by myself
collectively collaboratively and
including culturally responsive
practices to create a an equitable
system so that all of us not necessarily
get the same that's equality but we get
what we need in order to be successful
however that's defined yeah i really
appreciate that there was a paper that i
co-authored with three other trans
individuals and one of the things that
we recommend is it's not on the student
to have them educate you on their
transness like it is up to you to learn
about it and as the educator so yeah
that definitely resonates if you don't
know enough about x community okay well
people in that community they don't need
to teach you about it if they're your
students it's not their responsibility
yeah a quick anecdote and this is a true
story i was attending a meeting and i
was making the point
that
there was research that was looking at
family dynamics and how
kids in particular three and four and
five-year-olds make sense of race and
what the research indicated is that for
white families a side note i take issue
in terms of because they were using a
heteronormative
structure of family but right i really
want to address that but anyway they
said white families if white families
have friends who are non-white the
implications it has
for the three four and five-year-olds
are more statistically significant than
for any other group
if you're a black family and you have
non-black friends it still doesn't make
as big of an impact as it does if you're
a white family and you have non-white
friends same for latina and then they
did they just black white and latino
okay so i was at a meeting and i brought
this point up and
someone at the meeting said to me well
what about maids and i said what about
maids
i couldn't make sense of what they were
asking yeah i said what about maids and
i said well what if your black maid is
a friend but what if you treat her like
a friend and a real member of the family
i wish your viewers could see your face
i tried really hard not to have your
face
and i said
so
i said that's a really good question in
order to answer that i think it'd be
really helpful at the time the book the
help was really popular i said have you
read the book the help or seen the movie
if you don't have time to read it person
said no i said that would be a really
good you know first step and i said you
know i keep thinking about bell hooks
god rest her soul her work and in terms
of
how african-american women are often put
into specific buckets such as the mammy
such as jezebel on and on and on and the
person looked at me and said wow this is
really interesting and then about two or
three weeks after the meeting they asked
me to be their friend
now their children were far older than
three four and five so what do you do
with that this is an individual
who wanted to learn who was trying to be
responsive to what i was telling them
which was empirically based but to your
question about essentializing or
tokenizing
that's where it devolved to you know
needless to say i did not become their
friend for a host of reasons i know that
that anecdote while i tell it and most
people are shocked
it happens more and more and more and
more yeah on a positive though at least
they were asking and trying to learn
more and whatnot so like that's a good
thing it's good to yes reflect on and be
open about your own biases and whatnot
and blind spots like
i don't know anyone that had a nanny so
that is like a whole separate like level
of socioeconomic status that i am not
privy to
yes i wouldn't even even thought of that
it was
yes it was yes but yeah you're right i
mean what do you i really do present
like what do you do with that situation
i think there's lots of opportunities
but who's going to be responsible for it
again first and foremost it needs to be
the individual who recognizes their
blind spots i would like to believe that
i provided reasonable resources
so that the person could go and read the
help and i provided other things you
know i you know talked about some other
black feminist ideas and stereotypes and
hopefully that was helpful i'm curious
if this phrase resonates with you with
what you were just saying so one of the
lines in your preface was comfort the
disturbed disturb the comforted and i'm
wondering one if that does relate to the
way you were just thinking about
anecdote but then two how does that kind
of relate to your thoughts on schools i
think that you know
comforting the disturbing disturbing the
comfortable schools as a system
reinforce over and over and over again
who should be
most comforted who is the type of child
that should be
given the
path to success you know for example i'm
thinking specifically of jane margolis's
work and she wrote the fantastic book
along with others stuck in the shallow
end but then she's done some follow-up
work particularly with joanne good and
others on what happens in schools even
if they're disproportionately
housed by marginalized kids they find
that there's still maybe one or two or
three kids from dominant cultures so
that could be white or asian and even if
there's one or two or three so there's a
numeric minority they tend to be and
gain more comfort than those who are the
racial majority in that context so when
i say you know disturb the comfortable
i'm mindful of how systems will poise
certain individuals because of their
race and ethnicity and perceived
sexuality and it goes back to my point i
want to challenge that system to say who
are you comforting more i think back on
my dissertation although you know quite
a while ago but it was on first grade
african-american girls play patterns and
i had the fun of i did it in ethnography
and i sat on the playgrounds i think i
talked about a little bit in the book
and
and i also think it's really important
to share data with participants i don't
care how young they are and
for the dissertation i would take video
of the girls of course this was approved
by parents and girls and the school
board and i would show those videos to
the girls and say my interpretation and
they would correct me or
not correct me and what have you and i
remember there was one video that i
showed of a little girl who was really
just dynamic really a leader always
bossing kids around and i showed it to
her teacher and the teacher kept calling
her an animal and kept saying how she's
such an animal she acts like an animal
led out of a cage and this teacher was a
white female and i remember exactly
where i was i remember standing in the
hallway the teacher had finished lunch
and she kept calling her an animal and
not
hesitating and doing so she's looking at
me as an african-american woman and i
thought about my lord if she's willing
to not only call this child who could be
my daughter an animal or could be a
younger version of myself right what is
she doing in the classroom that is
making the
implicit explicit what kind of
hidden curriculum is this young lady
experiencing from this teacher there's
no doubt in my mind that this young lady
was very disturbed not because of
anything she had done but because of the
teacher's perception those experiences
made me
really think carefully
what could i do beyond writing and
publishing to create a space where young
girls like her could be comforted and
then that's what made me start to think
about developing these out of school
programs such as copy girls so if you
could wave a magic wand and design like
the ideal school or district what would
it look like oh goodness gracious i
think it would depend on which audience
i want to
engage i don't think there can be any
one school for everyone
i appreciate that response yeah i think
that there would have to be multiple
schools
i will say that i think that parents
and other community leaders need to be
more integrated into schools and not
integrated as guest speakers only i
think that it would be
fantastic again going back to my point
about education policymakers that i
don't care what school i get to create
i have to work with education
policymakers so that the school can be
accredited and can be
funded appropriately and unfortunately
you know we look a lot at the results of
standardized testing which is linked to
property values which is linked to who's
getting into the district and who's
moving to the district or exiting the
district right so i think that engaging
education policy makers is imperative to
the creation of any cutting-edge school
i would love for a school if i had my
way
that students are not assessed in the
traditional conventional ways let's do
portfolio assessments let's do
project-based learning again it would
really depend on the audience so to have
several schools that are truly
responsive to the students
needs
and then have a system where you as a
student can go to this school and you're
not going only to
be a student but you're going to learn
how does tlc relate to that so tlc you
describe as teaching learning and
community
so that was a program that was the first
iteration of config girls that was when
i was on faculty at a school back east
and that was my first attempt to create
a teaching learning community school i
mean going back to the point of
culturally responsive research again
talking about colonizing ideas as we
colonize participants particularly those
who are marginalized you know
researchers come in they gather the data
and then they hightail it out of there
and they don't give back i know i said
in the book and i was referencing jackie
jordan irvine's work in terms of how
many researchers will treat communities
particularly communities of color like
plantations and i'm forever mindful of
that and so tlc came about because i had
engaged in about a year's worth of data
collection and analysis in a high needs
district it was the same district that i
had issues getting entrance in so i
finally got entrance and i had promised
that before i was going to publish
anything and i maintained the same
promise today i said let me have the
opportunity to share with you what i
found and let's see if it's accurate or
things i should change and i did that
interestingly enough the mothers
and the girls came to this presentation
and at the conclusion after they gave me
what they agreed with and didn't agree
with they said we really would like to
continue these conversations and we
elect you to do it to organize us and i
assumed it as the least of which i could
do and i wanted it to again be
systematized i wanted to be organized
and i started teaching learning in
community tlc and so there are three
prongs to that program one was a parent
piece
where mothers in particular even though
we open it up to fathers as well they
could learn about their rights in terms
of being in a state-operated school
district and so i had a series of
workshops specifically for parents and
then the other piece of it was for their
daughters it was all girls at the time
even though we didn't exclude and they
were learning easy at the time that was
really popular easings meaning
electronic magazines it was you know
digital representation of a magazine and
then we have mentoring and so i had
enlisted and recruited and helped to
provide professional development
opportunities for undergraduates to
support the creation of the ezines by
way of lots of interactions and
workshops and i was teaching learning in
community and then you know when i was
wooed to move across the country i took
my lessons learned i did help to ensure
that it was continued i'm still in
conversation with the project director i
haven't talked to her lately so i don't
know if it's still going on but we did
keep in contact and i revised the
program was able to enlist some
fantastic collaborators and i renamed it
comfy girls you've had a lot of
different experiences working in the
field of education whether it's like as
a teacher as a scholar as admin like i'm
curious how do you stave off the burnout
that can come with working in
a field that is pretty hostile
especially now towards the people who
are working in it and then
to work at an r1 that is known for
having quite the workload like how do
you prevent the burnout that can come
with all that you do i try really hard
not always successful to surround myself
with individuals who maintain the same
work ethic as me and we have created an
accountability system where we will say
you know you really need to take a day
off or
you know let's celebrate
xyz achievement
that has helped considerably the other
thing i've done
is i try to take one day and i purposely
say it's my change of rhythm day and
that means i cannot do the same rhythm
as i do the six other days i mean it
depends on what happened this week yeah
but it's one day i have to change my
rhythm whether it's i spend more time
doing one thing or less time or doing
something completely you know
anti-academic that seems to help renew
my spirit for the next the other thing
is you know i have to be honest i'm at a
point as a senior professor where i'm
privileged where i can
craft a lot of my own projects i have a
fair amount of autonomy and i'm grateful
to my university for it so as i said you
know i have this new fellowship which is
fantastically fascinating i mean i'm
able to do that now
as well as maintain my commitment
to the other things that are of
importance
like how do you intentionally try and
improve in any of those areas so like
you can see with the drum sets in the
background i'm very intentional with oh
i'm at disability level i want to
improve it but when it came to teaching
like my questioning technique was not
great source very intentional for months
i try and improve my questioning
technique over time so like how do you
practice or
intentionally try and improve in
different areas in life oh good i'll
take the intentionally improve i am an
ardent believer of mentors
huge and i have multiple mentors across
the country who give me advice and i
trust them and i can say this is what's
going on with me this is what i'm hoping
to do and they'll say yes no and this is
what you know you should be thinking
about so that's huge for me and then
relatedly i try to mentor other
individuals based off of my mentoring
experiences in terms of me establishing
what's the next stage and what i'm
trying to
actually slow down and what i mean by
that is
i'm trying to say here i am at this
stage of my career i say this to my
graduate students what do i want to be
remembered for at the end of the day
what do i want to be remembered for and
so
i'm trying to and i am thinking about
okay what are my strengths where are my
opportunities to grow and where are the
opportunities i want to grow
that's different yeah and again i think
it goes back to the privilege of being
in the situation i'm at i'm trying to
focus more on those one or two
opportunities that i want to grow tim
ferriss has a phrase where he says if
it's not a hell yes then it's a hell no
and so like that's his way of like
trying to find the one or two things to
focus on yes
exactly what do you wish there's more
research on that could inform your own
practices oh gosh i really wish that
there was more
research on intersectionality as a
framework influencing empirical research
methodologies ontological studies and
explorations phenomenological it's
starting and that is fantastic thank god
and i don't know i mean
intersectionality is just starting of
course not it's been going on
you know since forever
since ida b wells time i mean you know
we should never think that it just
started once the word was coined but i
really am hopeful
that there's going to be more of
an understanding and clear
series of frameworks
that can be used and can be measured and
applied as it relates to
intersectionality i also
would like to see more
research or theory to practice movements
so
a colleague of mine we're creating
a series of videos to
say this is what we mean by culturally
responsive computational thinking and
because i have a soft spot in my heart
for arts and you know my initial career
actually was in art i'm really mindful
of the power of imagery and so
i want to honor that in terms of how we
can better use aesthetics to tell again
the theoretical stories of in this case
cultural responsiveness what about your
own research what has surprised you
about it whether it's a finding or the
processes or you know what it's really
about just how
hidden the system is but how explicit it
is about its own invisibility if that
makes any sense and so what i mean by
that is i continuously get surprised
when i identify patterns that
are
undoubtedly leading to marginalization
there's no question i'm looking at these
data and i'm thinking oh my gosh this
clearly says
that the
more money a foundation has the more
likely the head is a white male
you can see it and
i get surprised that no one else sees it
and that when i say it and i show the
data and i show how i did it oh wow
it continuously surprises me i'm in my
mind clear
clear evidence of how the system is
working to oppress how it is going using
material collins language about from
intersectionality you can clearly see
the matrix of domination and no one now
and then people are shocked by it begun
questioning it you know are they really
shocked or is this a performance um and
are they shocked at different things in
different ways so i co-wrote a paper
with someone we were talking about
neoliberal practices and corporate
influences on
music technology and we had quite the
critique talking about corporate
influence
and the thing that people focused on was
not the main point of the paper so it's
really interesting like it surprised me
we have this really good argument and
you want to talk about this little thing
about computer science and music like
it's weird for me to see what gets
picked up by public discourse and what
people want to talk about correct
it's always a surprise
you know what people pick up what
resonates with individuals and when
i'm typically surprised by it
my computer girls book someone said to
me well it's really not a book that
people can do anything with they can
read it and hear the stories and that's
good but it's not going to give
direction by the way this was a
publicist who i did not hire so you know
and i thought about what she said
and i said i thought i made it clear in
the book i'm writing it again going back
to my point about the importance of
narratives that too often we don't hear
what happens to
young people when the program is going
on and what happens after the program
you know which i try to put into the
epilogue we don't hear how they're
making sense of all the money that was
put forward to help this particular
effort and we certainly don't think
about it through a lens that they have
agency to not only understand the
program but the larger system and how it
even came about and where they fit in
right so if people read this book and
just say like this would be publicist
well you know you're not giving me any
direction
i hope that in thinking that they
question why they even have that thought
yeah i could see for people who say
something like that it's still serving
as like a pebble in their shoe which is
like a the phrase that i've heard for
this where it's like it bothers them
throughout the day as they move and they
keep revisiting it like every now and
then they just think oh there's a rock
in my shoe but they're not pulling it
out and so they keep coming back to the
ideas that are presented and the
narratives and the stories like it's
like a moment just like pings back a
memory for it and then eventually
they're able to act upon it but i think
it depends on who's reading it i mean i
have gotten some lovely lovely emails
from
young women of color who are in computer
science or computer science engineering
or not and they say i read your book and
the stories just reminded me about my
story and i feel less alone it reminds
me that i'm not crazy it reminds me that
you know there are efforts out there and
so for me
that's success yeah the organization
that i work for the nonprofit the time
of recording this upcoming monday we're
releasing four girls by girls so it's
two young girls who are interviewing
other girls who have like gone into stem
or i.t or some kind of tech career to
help try and increase like the
narratives out there the stories that
people aren't hearing and say like hey
there is a space in place for you but
going back to what we talked about
previously we also do need to critique
those spaces and places that they're
going into and improve them yeah i'm
curious what's something that you're
working on that you could use some help
with from a listener my most recent
project is as i said at the foundation
asu foundation and i am incredibly
excited because if time allows and
obviously you can truncate what i'm
going to say it started with me as i
said looking at funding trends and so a
colleague of mine dr michael simeone was
a data scientist we looked at every
solicitation
from nsf from 1989 to 2020 and then we
had to create our own web crawler
because we couldn't find a lot of the
solicitations then we looked at nih and
then
we started looking at corporate
foundations and community foundations
and then we use the database from the
women and girls index and the point of
looking at all this was to understand a
couple of things one how are the federal
agencies presenting girls women of color
and stem in their solicitations over
time and we use computational topic
modeling which is a critical
quantitative approach which i love and
i've learned way too much about and as a
someone who's really qualitative
research my appreciation for mixed
methods has grown exponentially and so
we use computational topic modeling to
actually identify
word neighbors and it's called we did
concordance analyses and collocate
analyses and so we looked at you know
how are words appearing so in fact
i have a presentation to do next week
and i printed out something that i wrote
oh gosh months ago and so we have some
very clear data i won't ruin the
surprise of it but i will say
that the word negro n-e-g-r-o
was very popular
in the early 2000s
oh wow in their solicitation when i say
popular i don't mean it was used a lot
but it was statistically significant wow
in fact the word
black appears in 1996
first time it appears again statistical
significance with an increase in both
occurrence and frequency by 2012. after
the occurrence and frequency drops at
the same level as in 1996. 1998 the term
at-risk demonstrates some frequency and
occurrence but declined a year later in
anyway we have all these fantastic
nuggets so this is just one federal
agency we looked at nih we evaluated 15
interesting interesting data we did a
comparison of nsf with nih
in terms of how their top collocates
where were there similarities
where were there differences
and then we also talked about
we actually have the exact number of
sentences from 1992 to 2020 has the word
three words women of color
that was done by concordance analysis
anyway so i took all this fun data and
we have community foundation we have
corporate foundations community
foundations it was impossible to do
because there's too many different types
of community foundations i couldn't get
a very good idea what i can do is look
at individual community foundations
using women and girls index and so we
looked at their databases forty thousand
community organizations
that are geared towards women and girls
writ large and we looked specifically
through their database about which of
those organizations got money from which
type of grant making organization
and then we worked backwards to then
come up with social network analysis
just so to see
which organizations were getting the
most amount of money and from whom
and now we're looking at for what and
seeing if there's overlap so that there
can be more collaborative funding
opportunities so doing all this
wonderfully fun
cool things
had led me to think more carefully about
how can a university foundation
integrate the knowledge expertise and
desires of faculty
in a sustained way so i'm creating
around diversity equity inclusion so i'm
creating a faculty program for
my
university's foundation to the best of
my knowledge does not exist meaning a
program for faculty who are interested
in foundation work whether it be
philanthropy or advancement or strategy
and that's my charge so you know answer
to your question you know
if i could i would love to have a cohort
of other people like myself who are
interested in poking the bear
interested in doing these deep dives of
data interested in thinking about
creating again a new system in this case
a system for faculty who have a
committed interest in terms of diversity
equity inclusion to jump the fence and
do something in terms of philanthropy
advancement and strategy well if you
consider including any alumni in that
count me in the work that you were doing
as soon as you started talking about the
data analysis i was like oh corpus
assisted discourse analysis would be
fantastic for looking at the data then
you're talking about concordance
analysis it's like yes this is it like
if anyone hasn't read up on this i'll
link to my chapter 3 of my dissertation
it like specifically unpacks like how to
use these to analyze large sets of data
it is so fascinating looking at patterns
of discourse and like how it changes
over time and whatnot like i could nerd
out about this for hours so
oh yes yes we will definitely follow up
because i do have hopes of doing the
same type of analysis in terms of how we
categorize funding and not only at our
foundation but as i'm looking at other
university foundations whether they be
peer institutions or
minority serving institutions
or
university foundation peer institutions
how language is used
right to describe
systems that need funding
along diversity equity inclusion
fascinating who's talking about lgbtq
and advancement right who's talking
about racial justice and how are they
talking about it yep i plan on using
some of those techniques to look at like
like how the discourse has changed and
whatnot so that's a future project
yes so maybe you'll be my collaborator
because i'm so excited about this happy
too are there any questions that i
haven't asked or topics that you'd like
to discuss you know it's funny and i
read your question like you know what do
you do in order to
avoid burning at first i was like oh
does he want me to talk about you know
working out or you know but then to me
that's what so many of us do you know to
try to balance ourselves i mean i have i
think pretty
interesting past times but at least most
people say like i do aerial yoga my wife
does yeah we have an aerial yoga rig
like literally underneath me
oh my goodness i know whose house i'm
visiting
oh i love ariel yoga because you know it
engages my body in ways that is a
different rhythm than my normal sitting
in a chair and being in a meeting but i
think along those same lines i think
about how to engage my mind and my
spirit and i return to art so i become
also one of my big hobbies at least now
is photography and you think about it
you know photography there is a lot of
computational thinking and so
some of my side gigs are
photo shoots i'm going on a photo shoot
tomorrow to do wild horses my
professional life still bleeds into that
because i'm conscious about not so much
the horses but when i'm photographing
people who's in the shot how are we
representing their being you know let me
engage them in the process
so is this really the story you want
told in this way here are my ideas but
lord knows my ideas may not be congruent
to what you want so
that's the only thing i wanted to say
because i was chuckling when i was
thinking about how to address that but i
think it still reflects my professional
self even though it's a different rhythm
yeah and i'm glad you shared that it's
important for people to
hear like even the aerial yoga stuff and
then to think through like how looking
at culture and looking at power
can apply into many different things
whether it's photography or discourse or
whatever again i started with art and a
lot of people say well how did you move
from art to where you're at now and i
said i'm sorry it's all about
storytelling it's all about narratives
yeah and exploring your passions and
interests along the way and being a
provocateur yeah yeah yeah my website
which is not live because i don't have
enough pictures i started with a tagline
of i think photography provocation
yeah so speaking of that so where can
people go to connect with you and the
organizations that you work with or to
check out your photography certainly the
website cgs.asu.edu
that has you know a lot of the programs
it has our publications
so not just mine but the other people
affiliated and associated with the
center
we have a monthly newsletter you go to
the website there's a way to sign up for
the monthly newsletter and find out all
the fantastic things that we're doing
and who's leading them so that's one way
to keep in contact also that helps to
alert people to
webinars or conferences or presentations
or publications
that individuals affiliated with the
center
are involved in so that would be the
ideal way join our newsletter group and
with that that concludes this week's
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Guest Bio
Kimberly A. Scott, Ed.D. is Professor of women and gender studies in the School of Social Transformation at Arizona State University (ASU) and the founding executive director of ASU’s Center for Gender Equity in Science and Technology. The center is a one-of-a-kind research unit focused on exploring, identifying, and creating innovative scholarships about underrepresented women and girls in STEM. Having written and successfully raised millions in grant funding to support research about and programs for women and girls of color in STEM, Scott was named in 2014 as a White House Champion of Change for STEM Access. In 2018, Scott was invited to join the NSF STEM Education Advisory Panel created to encourage U.S. scientific and technological innovations in education in consultation with the U.S. Department of Education, NASA, and NOAA. Center projects include the National Science Foundation-funded COMPUGIRLS; U.S. Department of Education-funded COMPUGIRLS Remixed; Gates-funded project on African American Families and Technology Use; and Pivotal-funded Women of Color in Computing Research Collaborative. Scott is the 2022 Inaugural ASU Foundation Faculty Fellow focused on increasing diversity, equity and inclusion opportunities in philanthropy, and expanding faculty involvement in philanthropy. With four published books, the most recent is COMPUGIRLS: How Girls of Color Find and Define Themselves in the Digital Age (2021, University of Illinois Press).
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