Pedagogy of the Oppressed: Chapter 4

This episode is the final episode of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 4, which synthesizes the concepts introduced in the previous chapters and discusses the difference between anti-dialogical and dialogical practices in education (and at large). This episode builds off the previous unpacking scholarship episodes on chapter one, chapter two, and chapter three so make sure you listen to those episodes before jumping in here.

  • welcome back to another episode of the

    csk8 podcast

    my name is jared o'leary in this week's

    episode i am doing a solo episode where

    i unpack scholarship

    in particular i am concluding a mini

    series on paulo freyr's book

    pedagogy of the oppressed so today's

    episode is going to unpack chapter four

    so if you haven't listened to my

    discussions on chapters one two and

    three

    i highly recommend starting there first

    because this chapter synthesizes

    many of the understandings previously

    talked about and in particular

    discusses a theoretical framework around

    creating dialogue

    as a leader now before we get started i

    want to say that even though this is the

    final

    episode of this mini series i do highly

    recommend you actually read through the

    book there's a lot of nuances and

    examples

    and discussions in there that i simply

    cannot put into this podcast

    because i'm just trying to quickly

    summarize some of the main points

    in relation to cs education so as

    mentioned previously especially in the

    discussion on chapter three

    freddy argues that human activity is

    comprised of both

    action and reflection that occur

    simultaneously so we can't just have one

    without the other so here's a quote from

    page 118 quote human activity consists

    of action

    and reflection it is praxis it is

    transformation of the world and as

    praxis

    it requires theory to illuminate it end

    quote so it's not enough

    to just reflect on theory without action

    or to take action without

    having a guiding theory we need to do

    both so as i mentioned in

    chapter three's podcast that came out

    two weeks ago we need to as

    educators engage in critical reflection

    of the theories that inform that we are

    doing

    as well as these social pressures or

    influences

    that are informing what we do in the

    classroom

    for example the learning theories the

    specific standards

    the administrators rules or guidelines

    etc all of these things

    all inform what we do and i argue as

    well as

    freddie that we need to actually

    critically reflect on these things

    and act upon them intentionally not just

    blindly

    engaging in practices without reflecting

    on the why or the how

    now as educational leaders ferreri makes

    a point that

    leaders cannot simply take

    responsibility for coordinating

    or even sometimes directing action

    however it's important as

    educators and leaders to clarify that

    leaders can take responsibility for

    coordinating or sometimes directing

    action

    however freddie points out that it is

    not through an imposition

    of values ideas ways of being on other

    people

    instead the oppressed also need the

    opportunity to reflect on their actions

    otherwise their actions can be a form of

    manipulation for gaining power

    for others in other words leaders cannot

    simply lead through domination of the

    oppressed

    so if you're listening to this podcast

    and i'm like cool critical pedagogy

    sounds amazing i want to engage in these

    liberatory practices

    it's not okay for us to just all of a

    sudden go into the classroom virtually

    or in person

    and start saying you need to do this and

    you need to think this way and you need

    to engage in critical reflection etc we

    actually have to engage in dialogical

    processes

    that we will talk about further in this

    episode

    and that we talked about in the episode

    for chapter three

    one of the reasons why freddy points

    this out and wants to clarify this

    towards the start of this chapter

    is that he posits that it's not okay to

    carry out a revolution for a group of

    people

    because doing so is equivalent to doing

    a revolution without

    the people quote

    to simply think about the people as the

    dominators do

    without any self-giving in that thought

    to fail to think with the people

    is a sure way to cease being

    revolutionary leaders end quote

    from page 124. so to engage in such

    dialogue leaders

    quote cannot believe in the myth of the

    ignorance of the people end quote

    age 126 nor can they sloganize the

    people

    so instead they quote must enter into

    dialogue with them so that the people's

    empirical knowledge of reality

    nourished by the leaders is critical

    knowledge gradually becomes transformed

    into knowledge of the causes of reality

    end quote

    from page 126. so in other words

    leaders need to engage in continuous and

    permanent dialogue

    from the onset of dismantling power

    structures

    if we don't then we are instead taking a

    position as oppressors

    despite being well intentioned okay so

    a large portion of this particular

    chapter

    presents two opposing practices

    one is anti-dialogical practices that

    are meant to maintain control

    and the other are dialogical practices

    that are meant to liberate and humanize

    people

    so the first part that we're going to

    unpack is the anti-dialogical practice

    anti-dialogical practices have four main

    characteristics that

    freddy mentions one is conquest the next

    is dividing and conquering

    the next one is manipulating and the

    last one is

    cultural invasion so we're going to

    unpack each of these four

    and after that i'm going to talk about

    dialogical practices

    and the different characteristics of

    that which are the practices that

    peri recommends as a critical pedagogy

    okay so conquest this particular

    characteristic of

    anti-dialogical practices is to conquer

    a group of people

    in order to maintain power through the

    control of another group of people

    however freddy notes that some who

    conquer will do so in a way

    that makes it appear as though they are

    giving up their power

    when in reality their actions are really

    to maintain control

    so it is an example that was discussed

    romans would

    give bread and circus to people in order

    to quote soften them up

    so even though they were conquering

    people and their ways of being and their

    ways of knowing

    or ways of viewing the world so there

    are epistemologies

    axiologies ontologies if you want to use

    some fancy words

    they were doing so in a way that made it

    seem like oh we're helping you we're

    giving you food we're giving you

    entertainment

    as long as we maintain this form of

    control

    between oppressor and oppressed okay so

    now let's talk about the second

    characteristic so this one's going to be

    a little bit longer discussion so this

    is on divide and conquer

    here's a quote from pages 131 to 132

    that discusses this quote as the

    oppressor minority

    subordinates and dominates the majority

    it must divide it and keep it divided in

    order to remain in power

    the minority cannot permit itself the

    luxury of tolerating the unification of

    the people

    which would undoubtedly signify a

    serious threat to their own hegemony

    accordingly the minority cannot permit

    itself the luxury of tolerating the

    unification of the people

    which would undoubtedly signify a

    serious threat to their own hegemony

    accordingly the oppressors halt by any

    method

    including violence any action which in

    even incipient fashion

    could awaken the oppressed to the need

    for unity

    concepts such as unity organization and

    struggle

    are immediately labeled as dangerous in

    fact

    of course these concepts are dangerous

    to the oppressors

    for the realization is necessary to

    actions of liberation

    end quote so this particular section on

    dividing and conquering

    again this book was written in 1970 so

    this conversation is very relevant

    with what's going on right now in black

    lives matter

    in 2020 as well as politics

    as well as just how people are

    communicating with each other

    across these social divides that have

    widened over the last few years

    or even decades one of the things that

    freddie notes as a tactic for dividing

    and conquering

    is that the oppressors further divide

    and conquering by distributing benefits

    and penalties that seek to preserve the

    current power structure

    so as an example of what's going on with

    black lives matter some people

    are quoting and promoting a small number

    of black conservatives

    who condemn protests that turn violent

    while vilifying

    a person who peacefully takes a knee so

    in other words

    we are providing benefits to people who

    are saying

    violence is wrong but we are penalizing

    people who are

    peacefully protesting the same topic

    this according to freyri is a form of

    oppression and maintaining

    power and control over a group of

    individuals here's a quote from page 135

    quote dividing in order to preserve the

    status quo then

    is necessarily a fundamental objective

    of the theory of anti-dialogical action

    in addition dominators try to present

    themselves as

    saviors of the women and men they

    dehumanize and divide

    this messianism however cannot conceal

    their true intention

    to save themselves they must save their

    riches their power

    their way of life the things that enable

    them to subjugate

    others end quote from page 135.

    so another approach of oppressors is to

    divide while making it appear as though

    they are actually defending the

    oppressed

    now as a contemporary example in 2020

    politicians in recent years

    have been saying for quite some time now

    that they're

    here for the people and they want to

    help the oppressed

    but then they end up passing laws that

    favor corporations and business owners

    over the individuals that they said they

    are going to protect now one way that we

    as educators might be able to look at

    divide and conquer in relation to the

    classroom setting

    is think about how kids are divided and

    conquered

    whether it be by grade level whether it

    be

    between grade levels in terms of having

    several different classes

    for let's say third grade or even within

    specific classes by dividing by the

    quote gifted

    talented or the kids who need more

    support

    although it allows us to work one-on-one

    with people this is also still a form of

    dividing and conquering in other england

    people

    yes it provides support and services but

    there are

    many ways of learning that involve

    learning across grade levels

    in terms of vertical learning in terms

    of also learning across

    different levels of expertise and

    learning from each other so the

    so-called

    gifted and talented kids can work

    alongside the kids who need extra

    support

    so we don't necessarily have to divide

    and conquer so freddie might argue that

    instead of having grade levels

    instead of having these different groups

    why don't we work across

    experiences across grades across ages

    etc

    having worked in settings like that it

    works really well

    but i also understand that this approach

    goes against what many people might be

    thinking right now

    of yeah but if i have all of the kids

    who are struggling on a topic in the

    same group

    it's easier for me to work with him on

    that topic or if i have all the kids who

    are excelling in a topic on something

    it's easy for me to work with him on

    that my response on to that might be

    it's only easier if we are teaching to

    the average or to the mean

    rather than teaching individuals and

    working alongside individuals

    so that's my polite counterpoint to say

    that it is still a form of dividing and

    conquering

    if we are dividing up groups by

    abilities ages

    experience etc and i say that with love

    to everyone

    i too am guilty of oppressing people

    constantly reflecting on it trying to

    work on it

    so not trying to point fingers or

    anything like that especially because

    this form of dividing and conquering is

    usually outside of the control of

    teachers

    so while i did not enjoy grade levels

    the structure of the districts that i've

    worked in

    at most had three grade levels combined

    that was a rare exception most of the

    classes were

    single grade level by experience etc

    and that was out of my control as a

    single teacher that would be more in the

    control of

    administration superintendents etc okay

    so let's talk about the

    third characteristic of anti-dialogical

    practices

    this characteristic is manipulation so

    freddy argues that manipulation is done

    through a series of myths

    such as quote the model of itself which

    of the

    bourgeoisie presents to the people as

    the possibility for their own

    ascent in order for the myths to

    function however the people must accept

    the world of the bourgeoisie

    end quote from page 136 so in other

    words

    the oppressors are presenting a model of

    the world

    and are giving paths for which people

    can ascend through that

    but by ascending through it and

    vilifying and demonizing some people

    who do not follow the norms and praising

    people who do

    follow the very specific view of the

    world

    we are perpetuating these forms of

    oppression that i talked about in

    chapter two

    and in chapter one so as an example of

    this in the classroom so manipulation

    could be something along

    the lines of rewarding certain ways of

    creating in

    computer science or through coding as

    a path for ascending in achieving a high

    grade in the class

    or being able to work on more

    complicated more interesting assignments

    while also penalizing other ways of

    engaging in computer science or engaging

    in coding

    so another approach for manipulating the

    oppressed is by giving

    unauthentic forms of organization that

    avoid questioning the status quo but

    give a sense of power

    so as an example of this it might be

    like student forms of government

    so we have a student president student

    vice president secretary etc

    but the tasks and responsibilities that

    we give to them

    avoid questioning the status quo of

    students in the school but instead focus

    on menial things that maintain the power

    dynamics that are at play

    now i could also argue that some of the

    interest-driven practices that i promote

    could be viewed as a form of

    manipulation so as an example of that

    although students are able to choose

    projects and topics of interest

    that they can explore through computer

    science or coding

    they are likely forced to participate in

    such practices and are unable to

    question

    such mandates among other reasons this

    is one of the reasons why i am not

    actually

    a fan of mandatory subjects or classes

    which i will talk about

    towards the end of this particular

    episode so in other words

    even though kids were able to create

    projects that were interesting to them

    they were still required to create a

    project while engaging in coding

    practices in the classes that

    i facilitated and the reason why is

    because

    that's what they received a grade for

    and this was imposed upon me

    by administrators so i had to give a

    grade

    and it had to be for engaging and coding

    i couldn't just say

    oh this kid's a great basketball player

    so therefore a plus

    okay so the last characteristic of

    anti-dialogical action is

    cultural invasion which is when quote

    the invaders

    penetrate the cultural context of

    another group

    in disrespect of the latter's

    potentiality they impose their own view

    of the world upon those they invade

    and inhibit the creativity of the

    invaded by curbing their expression

    in quote from page 141 here's another

    quote from page 148 that further

    clarifies

    what cultural invasion is quote cultural

    invasion

    which serves the ends of conquest and

    the preservation of oppression

    always involves a parochial view of

    reality a static perception of the world

    and the imposition of one worldview upon

    another

    it implies the superiority of the

    invader and the inferiority

    of those who are invaded as well as the

    imposition of values by the former

    who possesses the latter and are afraid

    of losing them

    cultural invasion further signifies that

    the ultimate seat of decision regarding

    the action of those who are invaded lies

    not with them but with the invaders

    and when the power of decision is

    located outside rather than within the

    one who should decide

    the latter has only the illusion of

    deciding end quote

    exactly how do they do this how do they

    invade a culture

    here's a quote from page 141 that talks

    about that quote

    cultural conquest leads to the cultural

    inauthenticity of those who are invaded

    they begin to respond to the values the

    standards and the goals of the invaders

    in their passion to dominate to mold

    others to their patterns

    and their way of life the invaders

    desire to know

    how those they have invaded apprehend

    reality

    but only so they can dominate the latter

    more effectively

    in cultural invasion it is essential

    that those who are invaded

    come to see the reality with the outlook

    of the invaders rather than their own

    for the more they mimic the invaders the

    more stable the position of the latter

    becomes

    in quotes from page 141 okay so i know

    those were some long quotes so let's

    unpack that a little bit

    the basic premise of cultural invasion

    in education

    is that kids might come into education

    with some preconceived ideas of what

    they want to learn

    and what they want to get out of

    schooling if we view that as

    a culture or as interests or however we

    want to describe it

    school itself and the pedagogies that we

    use in it

    can act as a form of invasion

    on those ways of knowing and being and

    thinking

    so as an example in computer science if

    a student comes into a class

    and really wants to learn how to be a

    game developer like that

    is their something they value highly

    they love playing video games like i

    do they love creating them they love

    designing levels

    creating mechanics etc but instead

    the computer science class only focuses

    on other ways of engaging

    in computer science or coding

    this could be a form of cultural

    invasion it is saying yes

    we know that you value this thing and

    this is something that you are a part of

    and that you value and that you love and

    want to learn more about however

    we think you need to learn all these

    other things well i certainly see a lot

    of benefit and have

    experienced learning topics that i

    didn't realize i was going to be very

    passionate about

    breri would argue that this is still a

    form of cultural invasion

    despite how well intentioned it is by

    saying this is how you engage in

    computer

    science and coding and this is what we

    expect you to learn and work on

    it is a form of cultural invasion or

    epistemological or ontological

    colonization in other words colonizing

    the ways of knowing and being

    a computer scientist or a programmer one

    of the ways that

    oppressors ensure this approach succeeds

    is by convincing the oppressed

    that their culture is intrinsically

    inferior compared to the culture of the

    dominating culture

    so going back to the example that i just

    gave it would be saying well yeah i know

    you want to learn

    how to program games and design them but

    that's not as important as learning

    about

    networks and databases and other topics

    that are outside of

    gaming and game design etc

    now building off of that freddy notes

    that an unsaid role of schooling

    is to prepare future invaders by

    perpetuating the myth

    that the dominant culture is superior to

    the culture of the oppressed

    so all this being said these

    anti-dialogical practices that ferry is

    talking about the

    conquest divide and conquer manipulation

    and cultural invasion

    educators who reflect on these things

    and think back on how they were taught

    and how they are currently teaching

    might come to a realization that they

    are unintentionally engaging in

    oppressive practices this can create a

    cognitive dissonance

    with the teachers because it's like well

    this really worked well for me and i

    learned all these things and

    like i enjoyed school so i became an

    educator

    so is it really hurting kids all that

    much etc

    here's a particular quote that will

    relate to this

    so this is from page 144 quote

    well-intentioned professionals

    those who use invasion not as a

    deliberate ideology but as the

    expression of their own

    upbringing eventually discover that

    certain

    other educational failures must be

    ascribed not to the intrinsic

    inferiority of the simple men of the

    people

    but to the violence of their own act of

    invasion

    those who make this discovery face a

    difficult alternative

    they feel the need to renounce invasion

    but patterns of domination are so

    entrenched within them that this

    renunciation would become a threat to

    their own identities

    to renounce invasion would mean ending

    their dual status as dominated and

    dominators

    it would mean abandoning all the myths

    which nourish invasion

    and starting to incarnate dialogical

    action

    now this form of socialization

    of learning through people who are

    oppressing

    future educators who then become

    educators and end up

    unknowingly oppress others this kind of

    socialization

    impacts everyone so here's a quote from

    page 144-146

    quote professional women and men of any

    specialty

    university graduates or not are

    individuals who have been determined

    from above

    by cultural domination which has

    constituted them as dual beings

    if they had come from lower classes this

    miseducation would be the same

    if not worse end quote in other words

    this happens to everybody

    so me reading the stuff about domination

    anti-dialogical practices this isn't me

    saying hey

    you person who's listening you're doing

    this horrible thing you need to wise up

    this is everybody myself freddie

    everybody who's ever existed who is

    engaging in some kind of

    socialization that can relate to

    oppression and the oppressed

    according to freddie at least now to

    prevent this

    from happening freddie recommends

    engaging in permanent dialogue between

    leaders and

    people that way people are able to

    continue critical reflection and action

    which makes it harder for this kind of

    cultural invasion to occur

    so before i talk about how to combat

    these anti-dialogical practices

    let's talk about what freddy mentions as

    leaders

    which for the purposes of this podcast

    we could think of

    leaders as cs educators researchers etc

    so freddie suggests that leaders

    typically belong

    to the oppressing class in one way or

    another and at some point

    they renounce their position with such a

    class and join the people

    so to do this quote the people must find

    themselves in the emerging leaders

    and the latter must find themselves in

    the people end quote from page 150.

    so how a leader presents or aligns

    themselves

    to the cause may present a leader and

    people

    as a contradiction to the oppressors or

    it may position them in a triangular

    relationship with the oppressors and the

    oppressed so in other words

    as a cs educator depending on how you

    position yourself you might position

    yourself with those who are oppressed

    like students or you might position

    yourself as an outsider

    to both the oppressors and the oppressed

    the one way you could potentially think

    of that

    is students being one point on a

    triangle

    yourself being on another point on a

    triangle and maybe like administrators

    or

    policies or standards being the third

    point on the triangle

    ferry however recommends that educators

    not position themselves within that

    triangular

    approach instead he recommends aligning

    with the

    people who are oppressed in this case

    likely the students that you're

    thinking of right now so as an example

    of

    how you can align yourself think of the

    conversations from the discussion on

    chapter two

    on the teacher hyphen student and the

    student hyphen teacher

    or other conversations i've had on

    facilitating

    this kind of positioning of a teacher

    student

    means that you are able to learn

    alongside and with the kids that you

    work with

    however you are still in a leadership

    position so as an example of that when i

    talk about facilitating and some of the

    interviews that i've done in previous

    episodes

    i mentioned that i am constantly trying

    to learn alongside with

    and from the kids that i work with but

    ultimately i was the one who had to

    assign the grade

    and i was the one who had final say on

    the design of the class even though kids

    had input in it

    i still was the leader within that

    particular space or context

    but again even though i was trying not

    to i could argue that many of the

    practices that we ended up engaging in

    were forms of oppression

    now to bill off of that if teachers are

    leaders within a space

    what distinguishes them from the

    oppressor quote

    what distinguishes revolutionary leaders

    from the dominant elite is not only

    their objectives but their procedures

    if they act in the same way the

    objectives become identical

    it is as self-contradictory for the

    dominant elites to pose

    human world relations as problems to the

    people

    as it is for the revolutionary leaders

    not to do so end quote

    this is from pages 153 to 154

    so again building off of the

    conversation on chapter 2

    and chapter 3 leaders need to engage in

    dialogue

    with the kids that they're working with

    and freddie recommends engaging in a

    problem-posing approach

    to education that i've talked about in

    the other episodes in this little mini

    series

    okay now to combat the anti-dialogical

    practices

    freddy has four main ways of engaging in

    dialogical practices

    so one is cooperation the second one is

    unity for liberation

    the third one is organization and the

    fourth

    characteristic is cultural synthesis so

    let's unpack each of these

    at the close of this particular chapter

    so cooperation

    so building off the question of when are

    teachers leaders and when

    are they oppressors teachers are leaders

    through cooperation

    quote leaders in spite of their

    important fundamental

    and indispensable role do not own the

    people and have no right to steer the

    people blindly towards their salvation

    end quote age 154 so the kinds of

    transformations that

    have been discussed since the very first

    episode on this mini-series

    is done through dialogue and cooperation

    through this cooperation people need to

    uncover the forms of oppression

    on their own through critical reflection

    and dialogue which result in some kind

    of an action

    rather than having leaders do the work

    for the oppressed or on their own

    so what i talked about in the episode

    two weeks ago

    for chapter three it is not simply

    enough

    to make assumptions about how students

    perceive

    they are being impressed as an example i

    gave the robotics

    course the example that i gave is

    assuming that students

    who don't have a robotics course would

    really want that we need to actually

    engage in dialogue and cooperate with

    kids

    to learn from them to figure out what it

    is they actually want for example

    the one that i mentioned two weeks ago

    maybe instead they want a game design

    class

    okay so the next characteristic unity

    for liberation

    so anti-dialogical practices seek

    division

    whereas dialogical practices seek unity

    for liberation

    so in other words synthesizing

    discussions from previous chapters

    the entire point of dialogical practices

    is to unify for and through liberation

    it is not to flip it so that now the

    oppressed are the oppressors

    it is to unify and continue to engage in

    permanent critical reflection

    and action that seeks transformation

    to humanize society a group etc

    so the third characteristic on

    organization so in order to actually

    unify people

    leaders need to assist with organizing

    people around the common task of the

    struggle for liberation

    so freddie suggests organization should

    occur around the consistency of words

    and actions

    so the boldness to confront risks

    increase action

    encouraging love through the liberation

    of humankind rather than demonizing

    oppressors

    so some considerations around

    organization include

    thinking about the consistency between

    words and actions

    when you're organizing and communicating

    the overall boldness

    to confront risks increasing action

    encouraging love through liberation of

    humankind

    rather than demonizing oppressors and

    having faith in people

    now an important note is that

    revolutionary leaders also need to

    organize themselves

    with the people not just among other

    leaders

    so this is one of the many reasons why i

    actually don't refer to myself as dr

    o'leary

    and why you will often see me presenting

    at conferences like

    international conferences while wearing

    the same clothing that i would wear in

    the classroom or at the grocery store

    they're like jeans and a shirt one of

    the reasons why i do this is i want to

    align myself with the people i went into

    education for

    rather than separate myself as being an

    outsider sitting on some kind of an

    ivory tower

    in academia now that being said some

    people will view my

    attire and resistance to my title as

    being unprofessional or uncaring however

    i would argue

    that's perpetuating a form of oppression

    where

    some ways being are intended to speak on

    the behalf of other educators and

    students

    rather than with educators or students

    so as a more concrete example of this

    if you happen to go to a research heavy

    conference you'll notice a lot of people

    walking around

    in suits whereas if you go to the

    practitioner heavy conferences you'll

    notice a lot of people walk around

    in shorts t-shirts things like that a

    question that i have

    for that that kind of contrast is what

    does that say about the kinds of people

    who can

    engage in and discuss research

    in my opinion equating professionalism

    to wearing

    expensive forms of attire and going by

    titles such as dr blah blah blah are

    forms of separating yourself

    from practitioners it's also a form of

    separating yourself from lower

    socioeconomic status

    so i don't wear a suit when i go to

    those presentations

    and i certainly stand out so my question

    for listeners is

    whose narratives are being forwarded

    when we have a definition of what is

    considered to be

    quote professional dress or attire why

    are we trying to look like politicians

    or business executives when we attend

    conferences

    why are we trying to look like we work

    in an office when we are

    helping kids there's no right or wrong

    answer to this just kind of posing it as

    something to think through

    so my larger point is that if we are

    going to be organizing ourselves as

    leaders we need to make sure that we

    organize ourselves with

    the communities with the kids with the

    parents etc that we are trying to

    assist through liberatory and critical

    pedagogical practices

    okay so in my rant right there all right

    so the last

    section on this particular book and in

    this chapter is

    on cultural synthesis so this is the

    last characteristic of dialogical

    practices

    quote in cultural synthesis the actors

    who come from

    another world to the world of the people

    do so not as invaders

    they do not come to teach or to transmit

    or to give anything

    but rather to learn with the people

    about the people's world

    end quote that's from page 165.

    so when i went into education i went

    into it as i mentioned previously

    because i wanted to help other people i

    was suicidal in high school and much of

    my undergrad

    and the music practices that i was

    engaging

    in literally kept me alive so when i

    went into education i wanted to do

    something similar i wanted to give

    to others what had really helped me out

    significantly

    what i quickly realized is that not

    everyone is going to

    need that kind of support through that

    kind of subject area

    in that kind of a way and i eventually

    started to

    broaden out my horizons to start

    exploring computer science and other

    subject areas

    and their intersections and whatnot when

    i went back into the classroom

    after finishing all my coursework

    for my doctorate i i realized that i

    took an approach that heavily aligned

    with what

    friede is describing as cultural

    synthesis so i was trying to learn

    with students and learn about the things

    they're interested in and how they

    could explore those interests through

    computer science and through coding

    so rather than going into a cs class or

    a coding class and saying

    here's my view of reality and i'm going

    to transmit my view to you

    it instead is about exploring

    students relationships with computer

    science

    with coding with the world how those all

    interact

    in different ways and this again builds

    off of the ideas of like culturally

    relevant pedagogy

    and interest-driven learning and whatnot

    that i've talked about in

    several other episodes all right so as

    with every other unpacking scholarship

    episode i'm going to now

    kind of share some of my lingering

    questions and thoughts after having read

    this particular chapter as well as some

    of my overall thoughts

    after having read the entire book so one

    of my biggest questions

    is that i have intentionally saved until

    this

    final podcast is why doesn't the author

    provide

    more evidence to support their claims so

    although some of the chapters like

    chapters 3 and 4

    have some evidence to back up their

    claims the book reads more of

    as an op-ed piece that i agree with

    but it lacks citations to multiple

    verifiable

    acts and events that ground the

    conversation in something we can analyze

    deconstruct critique etc now to clarify

    i'm not taking a positivist view to say

    that

    theory without application or a context

    to deconstruct something

    is meaningless what i am saying is that

    it's important to note that although the

    book

    was written with experiences by the

    author that could justify these claims

    the way the book is written makes us

    that we have to take the author's word

    for what is said

    without being able to verify by looking

    at

    other independent publications or events

    that

    also verify the claims now that being

    said

    there are people who have used this book

    as a framework for understanding other

    forms of oppression

    so these works do exist and this

    pedagogy is helpful for understanding

    forms of oppression

    i just again point this out because i

    think it's important

    to be critical of things that we even

    agree with

    otherwise we can end up following

    without questioning

    which again hence why i ask questions at

    the end of each one of these podcast

    episodes that unpack scholarship

    okay now another thing that i've been

    teasing for a while

    and kind of talked about in some even

    some of the interviews that i previously

    done

    is i'd argue that mandatory subject

    areas such as computer science

    is actually a form of oppression in

    terms of forcing a narrative

    that positions one reality over others

    so as an example that i previously

    mentioned standards and

    encourage engagement through certain

    sets of

    concepts practices skills etc that are

    related to computer science

    however anytime you're creating any kind

    of a standard you're going to have to

    leave

    some practices concepts etc out

    so the kinds of engagement with computer

    science that are not forwarded through

    standards

    may unintentionally be viewed as

    unimportant that being said if we go

    back to my original point

    of mandatory subject areas the kind of

    subject areas that are elective

    are deemed as not important compared to

    other areas that are quote the core

    subject areas

    if we keep diving down the road of

    adding more core subject areas that are

    mandated for everybody

    that approach without adding more hours

    to the school day is going to dilute

    every other subject area in terms of how

    far you can dive deep into

    those other subjects so for example if

    read and write and arithmetic are our

    three main subject areas and then we add

    in computer science that takes away from

    time on

    reading writing arithmetic which frankly

    i'm okay with

    but if we keep going down this path and

    say okay well now pe or physical

    education

    is mandatory okay and now music is

    mandatory and now art is mandatory and

    foreign language is mandatory etc now we

    have like

    a dozen or so classes throughout the day

    that are mandatory that are considered

    core subjects

    this then dilutes what we can actually

    do with it and actually accomplish by

    engaging in those subject areas

    but again this is a form of oppression

    because it forwards certain

    ways of knowing and engaging in content

    while also positioning others as

    irrelevant

    or not as important by making them

    elective

    now another larger thing that kept

    popping up in my mind

    while reading through this book was the

    the notion of oppression of gender

    in relation to stem tech computer

    science fields etc

    so on one hand there is a large

    diversity issue going on

    in stem tech computer science steam

    in terms of it's mainly white and asian

    males

    who are engaging in a lot of those

    professions

    so we're trying to diversify it whether

    it be based on gender

    or race or sexuality or however you want

    whatever demographic you want to

    go with we're trying to balance things

    out a little bit more

    that's great i totally support this i

    don't think it should be heavily swayed

    in one direction or demographic more

    than another that's just

    a a little weird but i do question well

    why

    is that why is there this imbalance in

    some demographics in some professions

    and not in others

    and when it comes to this lack of

    representation within these fields

    this can create some problems in terms

    of creating silent forms of oppression

    where it's saying these are the certain

    kinds of people who

    will be successful or can engage in

    these kinds of careers

    so that is a form of oppression and it

    is

    typically a silent one one of the things

    that i

    find interesting as a non-binary

    individual is that we have

    several cs organizations that are

    dedicated to getting more women and

    girls interested in computer science

    we also have lots of publications and

    presentations on this particular topic

    but we don't have the same movement

    or public outcry for elementary teachers

    where more than 80 percent of elementary

    teachers are women

    and white so this is an example of

    focusing on one form of dominance

    in cs as a field while ignoring

    others in elementary education as a

    field

    so my question is why is it unacceptable

    that there are so

    few women in stem cs tech etc

    but we don't complain that there are so

    few men in elementary education

    so to me this is a selective view of

    oppression that we

    as a field need to actually reconcile

    with we can't just go with the

    dominative

    narrative that we need to get more women

    in cs

    professions yeah i agree with you but if

    we view that as a problem

    then we also need to engage in a

    conversation about the

    demographic imbalances that exist within

    educators in the field of education and

    why do organizations that are trying to

    help marginalize genders such as women

    in some fields like stem steam cs tech

    etc

    why don't they also mention that gender

    is not a binary and that there are

    individuals who exist

    outside of that false binary like myself

    and other guests who have been on the

    show okay so i'm going to end rant there

    i hope you enjoyed this mini series on

    paro freddy's book

    pedagogy of the oppressed it is a dense

    book if you're not used to reading that

    kind of

    content you've probably noticed from all

    the quotes that i was reading

    however it's the kind of book that i

    highly recommend anyone read

    if you want to learn more about

    liberatory practices in education

    and given everything that's been going

    on in 2020 it seems like a lot of people

    are wanting to learn about

    these forms of pedagogy so i think this

    is an excellent book to dive deeper into

    hopefully this podcast serves as a

    little introduction or teaser

    that'll encourage you to read the book

    stay tuned next week for another

    interview and then

    the following week for another unpacking

    scholarship episode that will talk about

    something other than

    pedagogy of the oppressed i hope you

    enjoyed this mini-series

    and i hope you're having a wonderful and

    safe week thank you so much for

    listening

Chapter

Freire, P. (2000). Chapter 4. In Pedagogy of the Oppressed: 30th Anniversary Edition (Kindle, pp. 118–175). New York: Bloomsbury Academic.


Short Summary of the Book

"This book will present some aspects of what the writer has termed the pedagogy of the oppressed, a pedagogy which must be forged with, not for, the oppressed (whether individuals or peoples) in the incessant struggle to regain their humanity. This pedagogy makes oppression and its causes objects of reflection by the oppressed, and from that reflection will come their necessary engagement in the struggle for their liberation. And in the struggle this pedagogy will be made and remade." (pp. 43-44).


Some Of My Lingering Questions/Thoughts

  • My biggest question that I've saved for the end is why doesn't the author provide more evidence to support these claims?

  • When are/n’t mandatory subjects or standards (e.g., CS) a form of oppression that positions or values one reality over others?

  • When we have imbalances among demographics within fields like CS, why don’t we also talk about the demographic imbalances within fields like education?


Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode

  • Other podcast episodes that were mentioned or are relevant to this episode

    • Culturally Responsive-sustaining Computer Science Education: A Framework

      • In this episode I unpack the Kapor Center’s (2021) publication titled “Culturally responsive-sustaining computer science education: A framework,” which describes multiple courses of action for six core components of culturally responsive-sustaining CS education.

    • Decolonizing Education through SEL and PBL with Matinga Ragatz

      • In this interview with Matinga Ragatz, we discuss Matinga’s journey into education, creating environments where kids can learn through struggle, the importance of social and emotional learning (SEL), how schools promote individualism and exceptionalism, the intersections of project-based learning and SEL, decolonizing education, the importance of shared values in education, and so much more.

    • How to Get Started with Computer Science Education

      • In this episode I provide a framework for how districts and educators can get started with computer science education for free.

    • Intersections of Cultural Capital with Kimberly Scott

      • In this interview with Kimberly Scott, we discuss some of the problems with discourse around grit, students as techno-social change agents, teaching with culturally responsive approaches in communities that are hostile toward culturally responsive pedagogies, unpacking discourse and Discourse, considering both present and future identities when teaching, potential disconnects between theory and practice with intersectional work, comforting the disturbed and disturbing the comforted, and so much more.

    • Liberatory Computing Education for African American Students

      • In this episode I unpack Walker, Sherif, and Breazeal’s (2022) publication titled “Liberatory computing education for African American students,” which unpacks and situates the five pillars of the liberation framework proposed by El-Amin within data activism modules.

    • Open Design for Learning with Aria Chernik

      • In this interview with Aria Chernik, we discuss student-centered engagement situated within authentic contexts, problems with focusing entirely on capitalistic purposes of education, using critical pedagogies to problematize power dynamics in the classroom, using an open design for learning, the phenomenology of collaboration, creating a space that encourages taking risks in education, and much more.

    • Pedagogy of the Oppressed

      • Chapter one

        • This episode is the start of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 1, which discusses how oppressors maintain control over the oppressed. Following unpacking scholarship episodes discuss what this looks like in education and how educators can adopt a “pedagogy of the oppressed” to break cycles of oppression.

      • Chapter two

        • This episode is episode two of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 2, which discusses the “banking” approach to education that assumes students are repositories of information, and then proposes a liberatory approach to education that focuses on posing problems that students and teachers collaboratively solve. If you haven’t listened to the discussion on the first chapter, click here.

      • Chapter three

        • This episode is episode three of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 3, which discusses the importance of dialogue when engaging in liberatory practices. This episode builds off the previous unpacking scholarship episodes on chapter one and chapter two, so make sure you listen to those episodes before jumping in here.

      • Chapter four

        • This episode is the final episode of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 4, which synthesizes the concepts introduced in the previous chapters and discusses the difference between anti-dialogical and dialogical practices in education (and at large). This episode builds off the previous unpacking scholarship episodes on chapter one, chapter two, and chapter three so make sure you listen to those episodes before jumping in here.

    • Racial Justice Amidst the Dangers of Computing Creep: A Dialogue

      • In this episode I unpack Shah and Yadav’s (2023) publication titled “Racial justice amidst the dangers of computer creep: A dialogue,” which presents a dialogue that problematizes issues around racial justice in computing education.

    • Re-examining Inequalities in Computer Science Participation from a Bourdieusian Sociological Perspective

      • In this episode I unpack Kallia and Cutts’ (2021) publication titled “Re-examining inequalities in computer science participation from a Bourdieusian sociological perspective,” which uses Bourdieu’s discussions of capital, habitus, and field to analyze 147 publications on CS interventions.

    • The Shire as Metaphor for Systemic Racism with Joyce McCall

      • In this interview with Joyce McCall, we unpack and problematize some of the issues around race and racism in relation to education. In particular, we discuss the importance of allies not only showing up to support marginalized or oppressed groups, but staying when conversations get uncomfortable; the Shire from the Lord of the Rings as a metaphor for hegemony and systemic racism; as well as a variety of theories such as critical race theory, double consciousness, cultural capital; and much more.

    • What if Freire Had Facebook? A Critical Interrogation of Social Media Woke Culture Among Privileged Voices in [Computer Science] Education Discourse

      • In this episode I unpack Coppola’s (2021) publication titled “What if Freire had Facebook? A critical interrogation of social media woke culture among privileged voices in music education discourse,” which summarizes Paulo Freire’s works and hypothesizes how Freire may have responded to some forms of woke culture.

    • More episodes related to anti-racism

    • More episodes related to equity

    • More episodes related to pedagogy

    • More episodes related to Pedagogy of the Oppressed

    • More episodes related to social justice

    • All other episodes

  • Learn more about critical pedagogy by checking out resources by the Freire Institute

  • Demographic data I was referencing that indicates 89% of elementary teachers in 2017-18 were female

    • Note, there are also huge imbalances among race/ethnicity that we should also problematize within education

  • Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter



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