Amplifying VOICES for Social Justice with Lien Diaz

In this interview with Lien Diez, we discuss Lien’s work with Georgia Tech’s Constellations Center for Equity in Computing, what CS educators can do to learn more about and incorporate anti-racist practices, the importance of encouraging and developing both students and teachers as leaders, the shifts and pivots in education as a result of COVID, and much more. After listening to this episode, make sure to check out Lien’s podcast, Voices of Innovative Compassionate Experts in Society (VOICES).

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast my name is jared o'leary in

    this week's episode i'm interviewing

    lynn diaz in our conversation we discuss

    lin's work

    with ap computer science as well as her

    work with georgia tech's

    constellation center for equity in

    computing in our conversations we talk

    about what cs educators can do to learn

    more about

    and incorporate anti-racist practices

    the importance of encouraging and

    developing both students and teachers as

    leaders

    some of the shifts and pivots in

    education as a result of kovid

    and many more topics as always you can

    find a link to the show note in the app

    that you are listening to this on

    or by visiting jaredoleary.com where

    there is nothing for sale no

    advertisements nothing like that

    just hundreds of free resources with

    that being said we will now get started

    with

    lynne introducing herself i'm lynn diaz

    i'm a

    former classroom teacher i taught middle

    school and

    high school math and science i've been

    in education for

    over 20 years and i just realized that's

    actually 24 years

    i can't believe i get to say that live

    on your podcast

    it's gone by too fast i do want to take

    a moment to acknowledge

    the tremendous gratitude that i feel

    right now for educators and teachers

    all across the country who are you know

    are just getting back to class like they

    just started

    yesterday and they're you know

    navigating through what i think is one

    of the most

    challenging academic years of our

    lifetime the risks with

    covet 19 are still high in many cities

    but you know they're figuring it out and

    they're wanting to keep it safe so i

    have tremendous amount of gratitude for

    them

    doing that and i think it's part of our

    role is to have their backs

    so i just want to say thank you to all

    the teachers out there

    i'm currently at the constellation

    center for

    equity and computing at georgia tech

    started the fall of 2017

    so we're you know a little over two

    years

    young at georgia tech and i'm working on

    several different projects there

    currently what's the story from

    working with kids to doing computer

    science education and working with

    constellations

    interestingly jerry my background is

    actually not in computer science right

    so first time i was introduced to

    computer science was

    maybe my second maybe third year in

    college i had to take this fortran

    class and that surely is going to set a

    timeline

    as to how long ago that was early 90s

    right

    anyway i was one or two female students

    in that class i can

    still clearly remember because i

    honestly was struggling to understand

    what was being taught and you know it

    was pretty isolating

    it was mainly like just you were given a

    set of instructions to type into a

    computer

    i'm pretty sure it was a pc at the time

    but that

    monitor oh my gosh i will never forget

    that

    gray screen and that green colored

    little blinking

    rectangular cursor you know

    i remember thinking gosh what are these

    commands what do they mean and

    why are there so many go-to lines you

    know

    so needless to say wasn't really one of

    my favorite courses i took in college

    but ultimately it proved to serve a

    purpose

    for me years years later after i had

    gone into teaching and

    i was leading teacher professional

    development i got a job at

    a college board with the advanced

    placement program which i was really

    interested in doing because

    it was you know sort of at a larger

    scale

    implementing curriculum doing

    professional development and you know

    just working

    as a director of it was a curriculum

    instruction assessment

    for calculus and statistics after i got

    hired i found out that i

    also was going to oversee ap computer

    science

    and at that point there was the apcsa

    course

    and apcs a b course which was like a

    heavier focus on data structures in java

    for months i just immersed myself in

    learning everything i could about those

    two courses

    soon after i started working with the

    national science foundation because they

    wanted to have some serious

    conversations about the state of

    computer science in the country

    and they were basically saying and this

    was at the time when the av

    course was being discontinued

    unfortunately because there were

    too few students actually taking that

    course at the time

    but nsf was basically saying you know

    the way

    ap computer science was sort of situated

    in american education and the way it was

    being

    implemented it was like detrimental for

    computer science for opportunities for

    women to get into computer science

    for the economically disadvantaged and

    for students of colors to enter into

    this discipline

    and i mean this was a massive problem

    and so

    there were a lot of universities

    obviously that had to weigh in on this

    problem as well and honestly at the time

    i mean

    again this was maybe 13 years ago it was

    really too much for higher ed faculty

    to take in and to admit you know so i

    was a part of those

    conversations i led a lot of and

    facilitated a lot of those meetings

    i mean i remember some faculty who like

    lashed out

    at the thought of changing the current

    apcsa course because

    like that was their world right and they

    wanted college board to bring back the

    av

    course and i think there were some that

    just

    some were really too reluctant to think

    about like having to restructure

    computer science at the college level

    because then you know that would have a

    ripple effect in

    how we would shape high school computer

    science and so on and so forth right

    so these were some tough conversations i

    was having with them and

    even with some colleagues but anyway in

    the midst

    of it all this strong partnership with

    the national science foundation was

    formed they helped to fund the

    development of the ap computer science

    principles i was one of the

    pis on that project and we created this

    curriculum framework for the ap computer

    science principles course

    you know a lot of back and forth a lot

    of work but it turns out that it was one

    of the

    it is still the largest most successful

    course launch in the history of the ap

    program where in its first year there

    were nearly 40

    the ap exam and so

    that was a great success it started

    about 13 years ago

    the course is you know three or four

    years old now

    but there is you know we see things have

    gotten a little better but there's so

    much to do

    i think that transition from having

    completed that project

    college board and then transitioning

    into the consolation center was the next

    step for me to really now be

    very critical in analyzing the

    factors and the barriers that are

    limiting

    women and students of color into not

    just entering

    into this discipline but also succeeding

    you know we need to be sure that they

    can

    succeed as well and that's where the

    equity part comes in

    so if you were to give an elevator

    speech of constellations

    and what it strives for what would you

    say

    i'd say that from my perspective having

    been a classroom teacher because that's

    something that i

    try to keep close you know in

    my subconscious we strive to make what

    seems the impossible possible

    we can't solve all the problems in

    education but we can work to open

    avenues

    we can work to really remove barriers

    for upward mobility and i think computer

    science can do that there is a lot of

    doubt for minority students and more

    than that there's

    really no opportunity and that's what

    we're trying to do we're trying to

    remove barriers

    and provide that access and opportunity

    and supports for success and

    so far our comprehensive approach shows

    that

    you know we can do that we can remove

    barriers you can set a plan in motion

    and then we can

    show how to sustain that plan for

    success that's what we've been able to

    do since we started

    and what about voices for social justice

    i know that was a project that you

    recently started

    this really stems from the idea that

    there is no

    better time than now

    to lift the voices the voices of

    very thoughtful and compassionate people

    that we know

    ordinary people like you and me and so

    many others that are

    going through these tough times in

    different ways and so it did stem from

    having faced challenges with coven 19

    and having to pivot

    to you know support teachers and sort of

    trying to be

    really empathetic in terms of what

    schools and leaders even our politicians

    you know what they were going through

    and acknowledging that each one of us

    has something to say about it

    we've asked for different perspectives

    and we're aiming to capture diverse

    perspectives on you know not just the

    pandemic but how it affects communities

    of color especially minority populations

    and how that's all connected to

    healthcare and how that's all connected

    to

    you know the disparities in economic

    advantages and disadvantages and we

    wanted to know more about how teachers

    were coping with the current demands

    either teaching in person or online but

    we also wanted

    to highlight the racial injustices and

    how that's being addressed

    in classrooms outside of classrooms by

    teachers

    and you know other educators by

    researchers as well i know that there's

    this

    like rhetoric circulating at

    structural or stomach racism doesn't

    exist i think you've heard that as well

    too especially in recent news briefings

    and whatnot

    i want to give you one example that is

    very close to home for me here in

    georgia it's called a 287

    g program which is a partnership between

    county

    sheriff departments and ice right and

    this program

    is meant to screen incarcerated

    immigrants

    or prior infractions so for whatever

    reason

    they're in jail this 287g allows

    these immigrants that are incarcerated

    to be screened and if they've committed

    prior crimes

    then the sheriff department turns them

    over to ice for deportation

    the intent is to keep our city safe our

    country safe i get that

    but you know what's been happening now

    in some parts of the country like here

    in georgia that in some areas where

    there's like dense populations of

    immigrants

    what it's turned into is direct racial

    profiling on the asian community the

    indian community the hispanic community

    there's all these sorts of arrests

    happening let's say

    simple traffic violations all right

    they're suspected

    undocumented immigrants okay so

    this is just an example of how policy

    can turn into enactment

    of systemic bias and racial profiling

    this is currently in effect in 26 states

    including here in georgia

    and it's impacting so many of our

    communities and schools and students

    and so i think these discussions are

    extremely important to have

    at least at the level that can inform

    and rally the cs education community

    to have a voice in these matters and to

    really truly understand what's happening

    with our students and their families all

    of that is why we

    started voices for social tests the

    podcast interview that i did with joyce

    mccall she has a great

    metaphor of systemic racism and she uses

    the shire from the lord of the rings

    and so if anyone hasn't listened to that

    yet it's a very nerdy

    example of what systemic racism and

    forms of oppression looks like

    it's one of my favorites that i've heard

    so i'm curious with your experience

    working with constellations and

    just working in education and whatnot

    like what is some advice

    related to equity or inclusion or

    diversity

    and whatnot that has really resonated

    with you with regards to cs education

    you know i'm not quite sure yet how we

    completely

    eradicate racism it's in so many little

    things that we do and so many little

    falsehoods and stereotypes that you know

    ultimately lead to

    discrimination and racism i do think

    that this is a very

    personal type of transformation that

    happens at the individual

    level part of how we're brought up it's

    part of the environment

    that we're surrounded by i think

    continuing to reflect on our own

    individual biases is one way to be able

    to

    maybe shift our minds and our beliefs

    and our mindsets and be able to have

    more productive conversations

    around issues of race and racism and

    all of that i think is part of

    understanding

    what it means to actually conduct

    efforts around equity

    you know i think being able to

    understand that

    there are systems of oppression

    that you have to fight against to you

    know again remove barriers and provide

    these opportunities

    that takes time there's this op doc

    that the new york times produced several

    years ago

    about three or four years ago it's

    called a conversation

    on race and it's a series of short films

    about identity in america

    they do these interviews of people of

    different races

    and they're talking about their

    experience about the first time or when

    they've had to discuss race and racism

    and there's this one video that i can

    recall focus on a teacher who shares the

    story about a third grade student

    that asked her a question and this was

    after the killing of eric garner i don't

    know if you remember back in 2014 he was

    a black

    man that died because he was put on a

    choke hold which by the way

    it was illegal to do that at the time

    but still was put on a chokehold by a

    police officer

    you know and unfortunately died in this

    third grade student asked this teacher

    the third grade student was a

    young black male student and the teacher

    is a

    white female teacher and they teach the

    student asked her

    do you have ever have to think about

    race and being scared

    you know about the color of your skin

    and

    she even says she didn't want to

    sugarcoat it she said no

    and that's not fair but then the way she

    describes the

    look on the student's face when he just

    realized

    wow you know not everybody actually

    experiences these things

    that was heartbreaking so i would

    recommend

    that i think the first thing is to

    really you know internalize

    you know what it means to have these

    injustices you know be surrounded

    by you just because of the color of your

    skin and that these videos i think

    they're very interesting to watch

    they're very

    palatable right and very honest and

    personal

    but that may be a good and sort of easy

    place to start

    you know that there are a whole list of

    like books and articles and journals

    as well and that this is important too

    you know for educators right

    i mean especially in the cs community

    when we are very focused on

    diversity and inclusion now and equity

    right

    they get these different perspectives

    and try to internalize

    you know what can be used to really

    do better you know when it comes to

    equity and diversity and inclusion

    in the work that we do yeah i'll make

    sure to

    link the playlist to those videos in the

    show notes for this

    one of the things that you said at the

    beginning of that was

    like being unsure how to change racism

    at large and one of the

    recommendations that i've seen i forget

    the person's name but

    he's a black man who befriended members

    of the kkk

    and eventually got them to realize that

    wow this is really problematic and the

    assumptions that i was making were

    completely inaccurate about this

    person that i now call a friend who

    happens to be black

    and it started with just initial

    conversations

    and talking with somebody one on one and

    the conversations that i've been

    having with people who i completely

    disagree with like online or family

    members or things like that

    they're at a place where they're just in

    complete denial and so going into this

    with

    the perspective that i've heard it

    phrases just like think of your

    conversations and your questions

    as like you're a pebble in that person's

    shoe it's going to kind of like annoy

    them throughout the day they'll be

    thinking about it and eventually they're

    going to have to take the pebble out of

    the shoe and analyze it and

    like think about it some more to remove

    it that's an approach that i've seen

    work but when it comes to what can we do

    bigger than that

    i don't even know if we can really

    address how do we quote solve like

    racism

    when we still have people who like deny

    that racism is a thing like

    thinking that oh because obama was

    president we live in this like

    post-racial society but

    there's just so many other indicators

    that point to no that's not the case

    one of the things that i've noticed in

    particular for these people who deny

    racism is they often live in communities

    and associate with communities

    that don't experience these problems

    like you mentioned that teacher who like

    well no i don't have to worry about

    what's going to happen to me because of

    my race

    like that's something that i have also

    admitted to on this podcast like it's

    not something i've had to think about

    but what would you recommend for

    educators who might

    be living in similar experiences where

    like i don't have to worry about this

    what can they do to kind of learn more

    about the

    approaches at constellations or just

    what you would generally recommend

    we have purposefully chosen

    to work in school systems where

    the majority of the students and

    actually teachers

    are people of color and immersed

    ourselves

    in better understanding you know the

    context their lives

    in the schools that we're working with

    we purposefully chose

    to do that because we knew that's where

    there was

    no opportunities to get into advanced

    stem and computing

    the way we saw it happening in other

    school systems

    you know it's not the easiest thing to

    do jared

    there is some time that you have to take

    to build trust

    there is some time that you have to take

    to also be

    open-minded it's a continual learning

    process

    but i would encourage teachers it's hard

    now during these times of code but if

    they had an

    opportunity to you know see what other

    school systems are like

    to hear from other teachers that are

    working in these other school systems

    to build some kind of connection a

    partnership or

    even a virtual meet with some of these

    other teachers but that's what we're

    trying to do

    you could say that atlanta in many cases

    is a

    special case but not really this is

    happening all over the country

    but the way atlanta is situated the

    northern part of atlanta is where you're

    more affluent

    neighborhoods and residents reside and

    they're mostly your white families that

    live there in the southern part of

    atlanta

    this is where most of your non-white

    families reside

    a lot of them are largely black or

    african-american but also hispanic and

    some asian as well too

    and there's a clear divide so in that

    context it may be

    i believe the second most segregated

    city next to chicago

    in the nation atlanta public schools

    resides in the southern part

    and there are maybe six or seven other

    school systems

    around the metro atlanta area jared when

    we looked at

    the data in terms of you know who was

    offering

    advanced computing and who was not

    offering advanced computing almost every

    other school system

    had a pathway or had something in place

    but

    there was you know really almost nothing

    in place for

    atlanta public schools and that begged

    the question why

    right you know what is happening in

    these other schools that are

    not more than 10 miles away from atlanta

    public schools

    and you know as we dug in deeper

    of course really didn't have teachers

    with the qualifications to be

    teaching computer science obviously

    that's a problem in a lot of places

    but that specifically is a huge problem

    for school systems like atlanta public

    schools that

    all of these students are missing out on

    that opportunity

    so that's you know so all of those are

    reasons why we wanted to work in atlanta

    public schools and now

    when we're connecting these teachers

    with other

    teachers from across the nation but also

    in their neighborhood 10 miles away

    it's incredible how teachers can learn

    from each other regardless of which

    school system you work in

    and building you know that network but

    building community with teachers is also

    you know hugely important i think

    especially for computer science so

    that's what we're

    we're trying to do better so i would

    encourage teachers

    to reach out have an open mind and learn

    what's happening

    in other school systems and the reasons

    why you know the root of the problem

    is that they're not well resourced they

    don't have the teaching capacity

    yet right they need the teaching

    capacity to be built

    and it is not it is absolutely

    not about a lack of talent with students

    it is absolutely not it is about the

    lack of access and opportunity

    yeah i i wonder if teachers were to

    participate in like the georgia chapter

    of csta

    if like that would help them to connect

    and learn more about other communities

    within

    their area even if it's only 10 miles

    away that's still 10 miles away so they

    just might be unaware

    of what's going on in other parts of the

    city or

    state yeah and so now that you mentioned

    that we

    are working very hard to reinvigorate

    the georgia csta chapter

    and working with the president of the

    georgia csa chapter teresa yarbo to

    help you know kick start

    the meetups again and building that

    network that you're talking about

    so one of the blog posts that i read

    that you wrote it was titled i can't

    breathe

    and you said quote we can do better to

    develop leadership

    that enable empathy community building

    partnerships and justice

    and quote so i'm wondering like what

    kind of advice might you give to

    educators who are interested in helping

    kids

    to become future leaders i think when i

    wrote that you're right i was really

    thinking about building capacity

    with students you know to become these

    leaders in the communities that they

    need to become i

    i really was thinking that i think

    what is lacking right now is

    a way to be honest with students about

    some of these realities i mean they're

    seeing it now right all over

    i mean brianna taylor ahmad

    arbury here in georgia that was just a

    brutal shooting and killing of

    a young black man jogging in this

    neighborhood

    george floyd you know so many so many

    now right

    it's happening right in front of their

    faces and so i do think

    that there needs to be a way to have

    these conversations honestly with

    students and providing them a platform

    and a way to share their stories

    and their ideas as well and

    one of the ways that i think we can do

    that is

    through the computer science honors

    societies

    that can provide that platform for

    students

    to do that part of the honor society is

    having to

    complete a project or complete service

    learning hours as well too

    and i think integrating issues on

    social justice and you know what it

    means to be an empathetic leader

    i think those things could be integrated

    very nicely

    in that program but quite honestly

    darren i really do think that

    we need to allow students

    to to somehow like take lead

    on these conversations that need to

    happen in these communities

    we're hearing a lot of adults we're

    hearing a lot of

    you know leaders in communities and we

    need to we need to hear that

    but we really need to provide them that

    space

    at that level with these community

    leaders with these

    you know politicians we need to provide

    the young

    adults the youth that space the time and

    that space

    and that platform to voice you know

    their thoughts

    and their their ideas and i don't think

    we do that well enough

    i think that's something that

    collectively the css community might

    you know rally around and strive for

    that but i don't see that happening

    enough

    even in school board meetings i mean you

    know where are the students in school

    board meetings

    yeah one of the more recent examples

    that i've

    seen of students realizing that they

    have a voice and it needs to be heard

    was like a year or two ago when there

    was just one school shooting after

    another

    and students finally started to protest

    and like

    going and marching and saying no i'm not

    going to school unless you're going to

    do something to help

    keep me safe etc but it would be

    interesting

    if there was more of that going on with

    not only that topic but also topics

    around systemic racism

    or just even how can i engage in

    some kind of a school project that can

    better the community that i work in can

    help in some

    way like a problem that i see so if

    you're going with problem-based or

    project-based learning

    how could you situate that within the

    communities that students live in

    and use computer science to kind of

    benefit in some way

    or help in some way yeah absolutely

    and i think that you know the idea

    of using or leveraging social media

    for social good is something that

    young adults you know the youth that

    they can latch onto

    and really lead us

    in understanding how to do that well

    in these tough times they have some

    pretty good ideas about doing that and

    there's so many new apps now you know

    well tick tock right now is like

    hugely popular some of the videos that i

    have seen

    on you know the statements that young

    adults that students are making

    on the racial injustices you know are

    quite clever

    and i also just want to say too that

    i heard somewhere that there are like

    millions like 14 million or some number

    like that 14

    million 17 year olds that are going to

    turn 18

    before election day or the final day to

    vote just the thought of 14 million

    young adults that can

    vote in this election year is

    just striking yeah so you know

    how do we effectively reach

    a population like that to help the whole

    country

    make good decisions about how to

    you know how our government should be

    run and getting them excited about being

    part of that process

    and doing that through social media or

    doing that through the use of technology

    you know and the use of computation with

    this

    population i think is a missed

    opportunity that i think many of us

    are you know not involved with and so i

    would also encourage

    computer science teachers perhaps to if

    possible

    to use that context in terms of how

    computer science or computational

    thinking

    you know can be a part of rallying

    populations and citizens and you know

    residents in their community

    to be active at the polls during

    elections

    so i'm curious what kind of advice might

    you give for a cs educator who's

    interested in designing a course that

    promotes that kind of activism or

    civic engagement or whatever is because

    you mentioned when you were designing

    like redesigning the ap cs principles

    course and

    like going through that you had some

    reluctant professors who didn't want to

    change

    and whatnot so what lessons could

    potentially be extrapolated out of that

    in terms of here's what i learned from

    this and here's what

    k-12 teachers or even professors might

    be able to do

    based on those kind of lessons that are

    learned yeah so

    one idea is to you know

    leverage the power of computation with a

    computer

    to analyze and visually

    display data on you know

    many different issues and topics that

    are being discussed

    healthcare for one healthcare the

    disparities in healthcare across

    communities in america you know gather

    that data

    and you know computationally and

    visually display

    that data for students and for the

    community

    and using that as a context to have

    really good conversations

    about our healthcare system yeah you

    know that's just

    one idea right another idea is to

    and i'm really talking about

    collaborating you know cross-disciplines

    here

    you know our history teachers are very

    resourceful our history and government

    you know

    teachers are very resourceful in

    showing like the evolution of

    politics in our country and the

    importance of civic engagement and

    including them

    in conversations and leveraging them to

    like i said understand what role has

    technology played

    in that history in our history of

    politics and our history of

    law making you know and decision making

    in our country

    you know i think those might be simple

    ideas but it's a start

    it's a start to to having those kinds of

    conversations that might spark

    more interest in civic engagement yeah

    and i know some

    states have a standard that is almost

    exactly what you just described for

    social studies

    and history it's like talking about the

    use of tools and technology and how it

    impacted or influenced

    everyday life and policy and things like

    that so

    it's a great way to integrate with other

    subject areas

    other than just cs alone and also i

    think

    to you know that could help

    spark interest in other students that

    may have never even

    thought that computer science was a cool

    thing to do or coping to learn

    you know i think your art teachers as

    well

    can be very crucial in helping to

    get kids excited about computer science

    like doing 3d art or

    hand painting and all of that is awesome

    photography

    you know is awesome i love art but doing

    art

    digitally entails a lot of like critical

    thinking and skills that

    many people can't even imagine

    effectively using software

    you know to create the most beautiful

    art and then also

    creating a program you know that can

    digitally display like just beautiful

    art

    those are things that we wanted to

    integrate in the ap csp course while we

    were

    talking about you know the kinds of

    things that teachers could do

    yeah i know i'm biased but like one of

    my favorite things was to explore like

    algorithmically generated music and like

    what are potential uses for that and

    what can you create

    and so i had so much fun creating this

    infinite drum set

    that would just like make up random

    grooves and drum fills

    infinitely and every time you did it it

    was something completely different i've

    also like dabbled in

    procedurally generated world making so

    like if you feed in this algorithm what

    kind of a world

    comes out whenever you press this button

    so like what

    level will this player go through et

    cetera it's a fun way of combining

    computer science with the arts and again

    that could also spark interest in

    students that may have never even

    thought about

    like exploring computer science too i

    also wanted

    to say that you know the the issues that

    we're seeing

    in society right now the you know racial

    injustices

    and the disparities in health care and

    income disparities that have surfaced

    due to the covet 19 pandemic

    clearly see that marginalized groups or

    minoritized groups are impacted

    negatively and greatly because of these

    disparities

    there is a direct parallel to computer

    science education

    in terms of disparities i say parallel

    because

    the same kinds of gaps that we see in

    healthcare and the economy

    and upward mobility are the same kind of

    gaps that you see in computer science

    education

    and so if you kind of you know take the

    conversations

    maybe one or two or three levels up we

    need to be

    really looking at this very

    systematically

    and looking at the policies

    and the you know structures that exist

    that are causing those gaps

    in computer science education because

    very often they're the same kinds

    of structures and policies in place that

    are causing those gaps in healthcare and

    economy and

    jobs and you know the workforce they're

    very similar

    very parallel that's what i say so if

    there happened to be any like elected

    officials that were listening

    if you could ask them to write some kind

    of a policy or change

    them some kind of policy what

    recommendations would you give so like

    as an example

    first thing that comes to mind for

    myself is in arizona

    the governor released some funds for

    computer science professional

    development great that's awesome but it

    was only for high school teachers

    so what about everybody k through eight

    they didn't have any kind of funds to

    receive that professional

    development so it created some

    inequalities in terms of when

    kids could start learning computer

    science

    the first thing that i would say is that

    we

    already live in such a

    technologically advanced society

    and it's only advancing more every day

    and so i would say

    that computer science really needs to be

    part of the core

    learning academics throughout the system

    pk 12.

    we are not doing the best we can

    currently

    to prepare all of our students for

    technological type of society

    what some people would call like a

    technopolis

    society that is increasing in our

    country and

    you know in other countries too and so

    the learning about technology but also

    learning computer science and

    computational thinking

    really needs to be an integral part and

    a core

    learning area throughout our american

    education system

    there are a lot of organizations out

    there and you know all of us

    collectively i think have done a good

    job in the last decade to

    get things started in every state across

    our country to do that

    yeah it can't just be oh oh it can count

    for a math or science and sometimes a

    a foreign language no it has to be a

    computer science part of the

    academic experiences for all students

    and

    we need policies that can support that

    and the justification is not just the

    jobs

    it's not just jobs in tech which i get

    those are important

    don't get me wrong and it's a great

    opportunity for upward mobility

    and i will acknowledge that and i

    believe in that

    but it's how computational thinking

    and effective use of technology is

    integrated now in

    almost every single part of our society

    our voting polls and our

    medical professionals need to you know

    learn technology

    and that kind of computational thinking

    as well

    it's the fashion industry you know the

    entertainment industry

    almost every facet of our society

    includes

    people that need to be knowledgeable

    with technology

    computational thinking and computer

    science yeah i'm glad you

    added that last part that's a big

    thing that i try to emphasize with

    people it's like look not everyone's

    going to become a computer scientist and

    go into a career for computer science

    but anyone could use this regardless of

    what career you go into or what you

    decide to

    do in life even if it's just for fun

    yeah

    and i think then we would be

    just a little closer to really bridging

    the gaps

    between you know all races in our

    country

    it's not going to fix everything i get

    that you know people have told me well

    you know there's so many problems that

    we can't fix and i said i get that

    but if we can do a much better job in

    this discipline right here

    and provide the opportunities for all of

    our students

    right it's only going to help them

    succeed

    better in this technologically advanced

    society that we're living in and it's

    only advancing

    faster every day you know

    i'm curious what you mentioned with the

    advancing like in terms of

    how things are different today versus

    like even

    five years ago 10 years ago what's

    something that you first believed when

    you were like first working in education

    now that you've had different

    perspectives and life experiences

    you no longer believe that how has it

    changed

    well something that might be relevant

    to what's happening now is when i first

    started teaching i could

    never imagine that i could effectively

    teach virtually you know and it's hard

    i'm not saying it's perfect

    right you know 24 years ago i could

    never imagine being able

    to do that effectively yep and

    now there are different tools

    and platforms that can help improve

    the situation you know now and there's

    all sorts of you know views and

    perspectives on this you know kids need

    to be in school they need to

    be in a safe environment i think i get

    that and we need to be able to

    you know feed kids and i totally totally

    get all of that but i do

    see that virtual learning or

    online teaching and learning could

    become

    an important part of education in the

    future in the near future

    perhaps because it does meet the needs

    of some students that i've seen thrive

    in an online environment it may not be

    everyone yet

    we're not there yet right but there are

    already

    examples of you know successful

    implementation of online learning here

    at georgia tech we have the omscs

    program for computer science it's a

    masters in computer science through

    an online format and

    it really already has experience a lot

    of success and a lot of that i think is

    attributed to

    not just the platform that they're using

    but to the instructors who are

    dedicated to making sure that this is a

    successful program for

    all the students that are enrolled in it

    and this is like deployed

    worldwide globally so i think that now

    i mean 24 years ago i couldn't imagine

    that but i think now

    i can actually see it happening you know

    much better

    yeah it's interesting how like a year

    ago there were a lot of

    schools and companies organizations that

    said no we need to

    meet in person for whatever business

    that we're doing or education we're

    doing and

    it's it's amazing how those perspectives

    have shifted some people are like well

    we're wrong

    this is actually better and we're going

    to continue to do this even when covet

    is a thing of the past

    yeah and i do get that there are still a

    lot of like societal

    issues that you know we're faced with in

    terms of schooling and you know kids in

    school

    and the way schools are funded as well

    too they need to

    show up and so we're working

    you know through those things when i say

    we i mean like the school districts this

    is what they have to think about

    school systems this is what they have to

    think about but i do think that

    in during this crisis during this

    pandemic

    helping to keep people safe is important

    and you know finding ways to really

    leverage

    platform and online tools to continue

    the best quality education possible at

    this point

    you know right shift and pivot and make

    changes and i and it's hard it's hard

    for teachers

    but i think in time given the

    opportunity i think we could figure it

    out

    i think we can figure it out and it is a

    lot about

    expectations we know school is important

    we know that we need to educate the mass

    and we want our

    kids to grow up to be very educated you

    know citizens and be

    able to contribute well to our society

    but i also think too

    that it's an opportunity you know for us

    to lead by example

    while we're virtual with kids and even

    you know with our own family at home

    too but even during these extraordinary

    difficult

    times that you know we can show them how

    to be kind

    how to how to take care of each other

    even virtually

    there are ways that we can do that and

    how important it is to

    be caring and thoughtful of each other

    and i think that work is part of

    equity and fairness too and how treat

    each other and

    you know whether it's in school or out

    of school and these are life lessons

    that i think

    now in this moment when kids are doing

    things virtually or even in person too

    i think this is what kids will remember

    if we can teach them

    fairness kindness empathy the kids all

    over the country this is what they're

    going to carry with them the rest of

    their lives that in these difficult

    times

    you know we were able to show them how

    to lead

    in times of crisis so with everything

    that's been going on recently

    and how long you've been in education

    i'm curious how do you stave off the

    burnout because there are a lot of

    educators and researchers

    who only last in the field for a few

    years because of how difficult it is

    overall and the amount of like the

    weight and the burdens

    that a lot of educators and researchers

    work through every day

    yeah so two things come to mind and that

    i

    really try to do almost on a daily basis

    one is i really have taken up

    exercising for me it really is

    has been my outlet and i try to do this

    you know every day i go for long walks

    jogging here and there in some exercise

    and that really has helped me

    to sort of remove myself from

    the harsh realities the political

    darkness

    you know sometimes that we're faced in

    and especially here

    you know in georgia things of that

    nature so i've gotten into that

    more consistently lately but the other

    thing that i

    i do is i've really immersed myself

    into becoming a better coach for

    my team and the role that i have i'm

    very fortunate to have a small team

    and we hone in on coaching skills and

    strategies to help each other

    you know cope through what we're all

    going through but more importantly

    we leverage coaching and coaching skills

    in the work that we do with teachers so

    it helps all around

    it helps us effectively communicate

    collaborate and work together and

    support each other as a team

    but it also helps in having these

    conversations with teachers and

    principals

    and you know building trust and poor and

    just knowing that

    we can be there for each other but we're

    also there for the schools

    that we're working with so done a little

    bit more

    reading and freshening up on coaching

    skills

    and by the way i just want to put a plug

    in for

    audio books too i love audio books and

    that's something else that has helped me

    too is you know to

    not not honestly having to be on a

    screen for hours and hours

    every day you know i know that's not the

    same thing as like picking up a book and

    reading but

    audiobooks has really helped me kind of

    also de-stress and you know immersed in

    really good books one that i'm

    currently reading right now is a book

    called how schools work

    by arne duncan he is the former

    secretary of education

    and i just you know started that

    audiobook but

    so far the first three chapters are

    quite fascinating and

    i'll just share one little part it's

    sort of you know relevant to

    our discussions he talks about

    a student that he was tutoring at some

    point while he was in

    college and he talks about

    school systems being a system of lies

    how for many years in the school systems

    that he

    was familiar with you know they they

    would lie

    to teachers they would lie to students

    but not in the way that you would think

    it's it's just how the school systems

    were set up

    that you know students were thinking

    that they were learning what they needed

    to learn

    and if that was the case

    why then did you know so many eighth

    graders

    he was talking about chicago public

    schools and like so many eighth graders

    weren't up to par in reading like they

    were reading at like a third grade level

    but they were already in eighth grade

    so what happened they just passed them

    on you know

    from year to year pretty much lying to

    them thinking that they had acquiring

    skills that they needed to

    have to go on into high school and he

    applied that sort of same

    scenario with the student that he was

    tutoring

    this student was a phenomenal

    basketball player college bound

    you know i mean like bound to play in

    college is what i meant

    and his mother had asked him you know to

    help tutor him

    to pass the s.a.t exam

    and soon found out that here was an

    all-star

    you know basketball player who really

    didn't have

    the academic skills to really succeed in

    the sat and it was a heartbreaking story

    as i was listening to that i you know

    kept thinking

    in the work that we do in terms of you

    know equity and computing

    we really need to be careful not to fall

    into the same trap too

    when i talk about equity and computing

    it is about access and it is about

    opportunity

    but we also need to build in the right

    structures

    and the right supports for students to

    be successful

    in computing all the way through you

    know whether it's just one course or two

    courses or three

    you know whatever that is we really need

    to build in the right pedagogy the right

    support

    systems for them to be as successful as

    they can be

    i don't want the case to be that we

    didn't do the best that we could

    to help them succeed and then end up

    sort of in this

    trap of lies i thought about that one

    night

    all night long and i thought we cannot

    fall into that trap

    yeah it reminds me of a recent

    discussion that i had on like the hidden

    curriculum the things that you were

    taught that

    are not overt that you learn through

    school and curriculum and experiences

    and whatnot it's

    it's a fascinating area of curriculum

    nerd dumb that i really like to explore

    i too by the way love audiobooks so it

    makes chores

    just that much more enjoyable because

    it's like oh i gotta listen to a book

    while i

    vacuum the floor

    what do you wish there is more research

    that could

    inform your own practices and what you

    do

    one of the things that we're working on

    this year is really

    on not just building teaching capacity

    but building on a leadership capacity

    with

    teachers and we're

    investigating now what that looks like

    and what that should be because it is

    important

    and i'm talking especially like in you

    know school systems like in chicago

    public schools or atlanta public schools

    you know where they're really

    teaching like a high population of

    students of color

    you know i think that it is important to

    build teaching capacity content

    knowledge

    you know efficacy increase confidence

    but it's the leadership part that i

    think

    we really need to do a better job in and

    there's

    all sorts of ways to build leadership

    capacity

    there's not that much much research for

    building

    leadership with computer science

    teachers and i'm not talking about

    taking them out of the classroom that's

    not what i'm talking about i'm talking

    about

    these teachers then becoming you know

    the next

    generation of leaders for teachers so

    teachers as

    leaders and perhaps in general

    you know we haven't been able to do that

    well enough

    and i think that could really help

    promote

    the profession the teaching profession

    lifting teachers you know and provide a

    much higher level of reverence

    for teachers and the teaching profession

    so that's something we're working on now

    yeah i like that i know like apple

    distinguished educators and then

    cstas what is the award for teaching

    excellence in computer science like

    programs and awards like that are trying

    to develop leadership capacity and

    whatnot so it's nice to see some of that

    popping up but yeah i agree

    we could definitely use more of that

    it's also the fact that

    it's about changing beliefs too about

    what teaching is about it's all

    connected right but

    i really do wish that we had a

    different perspective on teaching on

    teachers and you know and teaching

    i think there's still a lot of

    misconceptions you know

    based on how the school year is set up

    oh teachers get the summer off

    oh that's not what this is about you

    know oh

    well how hard can it be i'm like

    so you know there's still a lot of

    misconceptions about that but i think

    there's an

    opportunity specifically with cs

    teachers

    to you know integrate some of that

    leadership

    building leadership with cs teachers and

    really changing perspectives about

    you know teaching in general like for

    example

    i think cs teachers all teachers are

    very resourceful

    okay but there's an opportunity for cs

    teachers

    to for us to help cs teachers to build

    connections and networks with industry

    and you know there's a lot of that

    happening but i don't think we're doing

    it

    specifically to build leadership

    with cs teachers so i think you know

    there are some

    nuances there that we need to work on

    and help improve

    obviously you know nominating teachers

    for awards that's one thing

    you know for sure too but imagine if we

    could apply

    the process of becoming like a national

    board certified teacher

    that's a very rigorous process and it's

    very prestigious too

    it's also very costly and and time

    consuming

    i get all of that but sort of that same

    concept

    same but different you know and applying

    that to

    computer science teachers leveraging

    their expertise

    and really making them like leaders for

    the next generation

    and helping to improve on and sustain

    that

    teaching workforce that we need to teach

    computer science

    not just for today but you know for

    years to come

    i think that's what i'm thinking about i

    like that it was making me think

    what was it three four years ago i was

    one of the recipients

    for the teaching excellence for computer

    science award and like it was great

    and since then i've been like a reviewer

    for it and

    while reviewing it a lot of the

    questions are

    like revolved around not just the impact

    that you're having with the students

    that you work with but with your

    community at large

    so like are you a leader outside of just

    your classes alone and that was a very

    important thing that

    the review process focused on but

    it would be interesting if they turned

    it more into a community

    because like i've met people that also

    have won the awards but like there isn't

    like this community where we can

    actually get together and like share

    ideas and exchange things it's like yeah

    you won this thing cool

    see you later it would be interesting if

    it was

    more communal and something kind of

    conversation that continued beyond the

    award itself

    but that's just kind of me thinking out

    loud so if anyone at csta or infosys is

    listening to this there's an idea for

    you

    yeah that's a great idea are there any

    questions that i haven't asked that you

    want to talk about

    i kind of did want to ask you a question

    yeah go for it

    so i've seen you present before and

    earlier you mentioned

    you have a passion for creating music

    and wanted to learn more from you about

    how you

    got into that and you like what sparked

    that interest and

    what have you created lately so it's a

    long story but

    in high school like i was a musician

    in band class marched on the drumline

    did all that and i loved it

    but i was like well how am i going to

    make a job like a living doing this

    thing that i really enjoyed and so i

    started just looking up salaries what do

    people make and one of the higher paying

    ones was a computer programmer

    and so i took the ap cs course it was

    the first year they

    offered it at my school and the teacher

    was like learning it as he went so he'd

    give us like a month's worth of

    assignments and then we wouldn't get

    anything for a month so i'd like finish

    at the stuff in a week or two and then

    i'd be bored

    so we'd literally just play video games

    in the class while we'd wait for the

    next

    set of content so i realized that

    because i was just bored with it like

    that wasn't challenging me

    and the thing that was keeping me alive

    the time because i was suicidally

    depressed and

    and whatnot was making music and so i

    went into music education to help others

    through similar things and it wasn't

    until my doctorate when i took

    a class that i audited just for fun

    called electronic

    music studio 2 which is a very generic

    name

    and it just so happened to be about

    creating music apps with this graphical

    programming language

    and that's like reignited my interest in

    coding

    and it situated it in this type of

    project that i was just fascinated with

    because i was making all these like apps

    and

    fun things related to music technology

    with code

    and so while i was engaging in it i was

    like okay when is this music when is

    this coding and when are the two

    inseparable and those questions were

    like nagging at me so when i

    finally finished my coursework and went

    back into the classroom

    i applied for this generic like

    technology teacher position

    and i went into the interview and was

    like hey instead of teaching microsoft

    office

    and stuff like that how about you teach

    code and how about you use the arts to

    do that

    and they just so happened to shift over

    to coding

    that year so like i got in and then just

    like have been running with it ever

    since

    so that's kind of my very short version

    of

    how i got into cs education through my

    music education background

    but in terms of like what i'm creating

    lately i've been creating

    all these projects that are integrating

    computer science concepts with standards

    from ela

    and standards from social studies and

    doing this for

    the northern arapaho and eastern

    shoshone tribes on the wind river

    reservation in wyoming and so that's

    been something that i've been creating

    lately and have been working on

    do you make your productions public

    yes it will be eventually it's going

    through review phase right now but

    eventually all these resources will be

    and i will say it's an exciting project

    and i can't wait for

    people to use it outside of this small

    group that's currently

    taking a look at it well we can't wait

    to see it either

    so the last question that i have for you

    is where my people go to connect with

    you

    and the organizations that you work with

    yes so we do have

    a website at constellations.gatech.edu

    you can also find me on twitter at

    lynn l i en underscore diaz d-i-a-z

    constellations is also on twitter and on

    instagram

    at gtccec

    on both of those and with that that

    concludes this week's episode of the

    csk8 podcast

    i hope you enjoyed listening to this

    interview with lynn and i hope you check

    out all the

    resources that lin and constellations

    have created

    again you can find links to all of those

    in the show notes as well as links to

    many of the other

    resources we discussed in this

    particular episode if you haven't done

    so yet please consider sharing

    this episode or one of your favorite

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    thank you so much for listening and i

    hope you are having a wonderful and safe

    week

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