Education for Liberation with Martin Urbach

In this interview with Martin Urbach, we discuss the importance of intentionality in education, exploring the social/political/historical contexts that can be explored in an educational experience, student choice and agency in the design of a space or experience, how to fight oppressive systems in education from the inside, committing to continuing to learn and grow on a daily basis, and much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast

    my name is jared o'leary in this week's

    episode i'm interviewing martine erbach

    martine and i met several years ago at a

    conference in new york

    where i was honestly blown away by his

    level of understanding on things related

    to critical pedagogy activism

    education for liberation etc in this

    particular episode

    we talk about the importance of

    intentionality in education

    we discuss exploring the social

    political historical

    context that can be explored in an

    educational experience we also discuss

    student choice and agency in the design

    of a space or experience and in

    particular martine shares some of the

    struggles

    around when is a too much agency which i

    really appreciate his vulnerability in

    that particular conversation and

    throughout this interview as a whole we

    also discuss how to fight oppressive

    systems in education from the inside

    for example through small access

    subversion as well as committing to

    continuing to learn and grow on a daily

    basis

    and many other topics now at one point

    in the interview martine describes a

    video by dr

    bettina love and i unknowingly gave a

    summary of that video because i forgot

    who it was i was presenting on it i'm

    just really bad at remembering names

    after watching videos and whatnot it's a

    fantastic video that i highly recommend

    people watch

    and i've linked to that as well as

    several other resources

    and books and courses etc that are

    relevant to this episode those are all

    found in the show notes so simply click

    on the link that's in the description or

    visit my website which has nothing for

    sale

    nothing like that my website is just

    simply jaredlery.com

    anyways enough plugs all right so i'd

    like to now begin with the interview

    with martine introducing himself my name

    is martine erbach

    i am originally from bolivia right in

    the heart of latin america

    i moved to the united states in the year

    i'm a musician i'm a drummer i'm a

    composer i'm a ranger

    i teach music in a public school in new

    york city

    and i'm also a youth organizer and a

    restorative justice practitioner

    so can you tell me the story of how you

    got into educated related activism

    so i think it's one of those stories

    that it goes in and out and left and

    right

    and through is like i moved to the

    united states to study drumming

    specifically jazz drumming and through

    that you know like i lived in new

    orleans and

    back in new orleans like you're doing as

    many gigs as you can i think that's kind

    of how you measure

    success it's like i had 39 gigs this

    week

    i am successful the next week i have 42

    gigs and then

    through my time at the university of new

    orleans i started doing a little bit of

    teaching outreach and then doing like

    private lessons here and there

    to be honest like i always like the

    private lessons but to me always they

    feel like a chore they feel like okay

    this is going to work

    and once i started doing like classroom

    lessons

    or bigger like say like drumming

    ensemble lessons that to me felt more

    like liberatory they

    felt a lot more fun so i've always kind

    of like

    done education in one way or another and

    then when i moved to new york city for

    my master's degree at the manhattan

    school of music

    i joined the the community outreach

    office

    for the manhattan school of music and

    through them i started doing quite a bit

    of

    education in public schools and that

    felt really good to me

    and as soon as i started doing it i

    became overwhelmed with like

    lesson planning and what it is that i

    want to teach and

    i've never felt like it was my space in

    education to be like

    i'm going to be the drumming teacher

    that teach you the rudiments or i'm

    going to teach you

    how to sit correctly in the technique

    and

    right i love all that for myself but

    i've never really

    felt like i want to do that part myself

    so in the past

    to discover what kind of educator i am

    and like what's my

    passion but also what's my

    service like i began realizing that one

    of the things that i was

    most attracted to in education

    is the idea of like social consciousness

    and

    like even before social justice like

    i think maybe this was 2007

    this idea of like what it means to be a

    socially conscious individual

    what it means to like use education for

    liberation and what it means to use

    specifically music education for

    liberation

    whether it is like instrumental music or

    music technology

    and also for togetherness right like how

    can we use

    education as a way to foster

    togetherness

    you know i'm a jazz musician so

    everything is around relationships

    everything is about

    trust everything is about improvising

    together

    everything is about taking unknown risks

    and so what felt natural to me is to

    develop a curriculum and also to

    learn about social accountability and

    social justice and activism

    and then through that you know it's like

    one of those things that

    the more you learn about it the more you

    realize that you don't know much about

    it so you want to

    learn more something and reading books

    and mainly like critical pedagogy

    but also like learning about racism in

    the united states as a white

    latino immigrant you know i was

    socialized to never really think about

    racism

    specifically like anti-blackness i was

    always socialized to be like i don't see

    color we're all the same

    one love you know but teaching in the

    public schools in new york city

    taught me that that's actually not the

    way it is right so

    the more i did teaching and the more i

    would develop this

    what i now see as like non-transactional

    relationships with students

    the more i would learn about stuff like

    stop and frisk we would choose the

    nypd in your police department's policy

    of just like

    racially profiling mainly black but also

    black and brown

    young men and frisking them and roughing

    them up for no reason

    yeah basically harassment oh yeah i mean

    fully harassment like state sanctions

    harassment

    you know like less than like i think

    three percent

    of the people ended up having like a

    weapon on them or drugs on them

    you know the more aware and the more i

    built relationships with students

    the more i would find that oh that

    student that just came to class and is

    all

    pissed off or upset or crying

    or just like with their head down

    it may not be because they're bored you

    know it's like right they just got

    harassed by

    three police officers or you know and

    the more

    just learning how to navigate the system

    of being a white educator

    in a system of schooling in new york

    city

    where i was teaching mostly students of

    color

    led me to do deeper work in my own

    positionality

    and so long story short it like teaching

    like a c

    major scale to me felt like just like

    not enough

    and so like i begin doing i mean i don't

    want to negate

    the value of learning about music theory

    because that's what saved me right like

    i am who i

    am because i know music and because i

    love music

    but to bring an intentionality for like

    why do we play music what do we play

    music for

    so it's not just like hey go learn mary

    had a little lamb or go learn

    like chopsticks and that's how you learn

    the piano

    yeah definitely and what's interesting

    from like a computer science

    perspective is a lot of the discourse is

    around

    you are learning this thing so that way

    you can get a future job

    like that's all people talk about but

    several of the guests that i've had on

    have talked about well there are other

    purposes of education

    besides a career like self-development

    or just understanding or social

    emotional learning things like that like

    even computer science for healing and so

    i'm wondering if you could kind of

    give an example of what does it look

    like

    to teach like a lesson that focuses on

    social consciousness

    or anti-racist racist practices or

    things like that

    reflecting i always like to

    start lessons with this idea of like a

    design challenge you know

    even just from like from the design like

    thinking process right like

    like what is the need what human need am

    i solving

    like i like to think of education as

    like we're solving a human need

    not solving in the sense of like by the

    end of this unit

    racism is going to be solved or but like

    we're

    yearning towards a world that doesn't

    yet exist

    but that we can see right so like for

    example

    i've done a lot of work with makey makey

    and

    recyclable materials right and so

    one of the things that in talking to

    eric rosenbaum one of the creators of

    makeymakey

    in talking to him a lot of the

    conversations were

    around this idea of human connection

    about this idea that like

    it can take two students or two kids or

    two people

    to trigger a note right so like yes

    go ahead and learn that c major scale

    but really focusing on what it might

    feel like to practice consent

    between two people to hand clap and

    close that circuit

    in order to play a song like lean on me

    which is based

    on the c major skill so you go like

    clap clap clap clap clap clap clap clap

    clap

    [Music]

    how you can build a lesson around

    teaching the c major scale

    which i as a music teacher want to do

    because i see the value in it

    but then you're also you're using this

    piece of technology that

    wasn't really created to teach a c major

    scale

    it was created to create connection

    right like

    jay and eric talk a lot about like this

    human connection

    and this like this idea of looking at

    things for what they can be

    instead of just like assuming that

    everybody wants to high-five each other

    or hug each other

    or set up a kissing booth let's practice

    consent

    like hey would you like to play this

    song would you like to try

    how does it feel like to say hey would

    you like to give me a hand clap so we

    can play the song

    and for somebody to say like no i'm good

    actually i don't want that

    or say yes that would be great or you

    know what i don't want a hand clap but

    how about a handshake

    well you can't really do a handshake

    because when you're doing the hang shake

    the maki making the computer like

    software doesn't know that you're

    just wanting to do one hit is gonna keep

    on

    like retriggering it yeah oh yeah but i

    really want to do

    a handshake oh let me go on scratch and

    let me figure out how i can do that

    right and so like then you have students

    taking accountability of their own

    education

    and actually doing what you want a

    computer programmer to do right and also

    a jazz musician

    yeah to like engage in path that you

    don't know what you're looking for but

    you

    from the outside you're just clicking

    and clacking

    trial and error but you're going through

    a process of

    discovering the world and that can be

    for that or that can be for like

    you know like i am not a fan of using

    bananas for

    making makey stuff like i'm using makey

    makey because i have a lot of experience

    what does it mean like to make a piano

    out of

    bananas and that's like really fun and

    really great

    but what does it mean to be in a

    positionality in which you can

    waste five bananas you don't live in a

    country like the united states of

    america where we waste

    a banana because it's a little bit

    bruised when you have people

    that are really dying of starvation i

    mean bananas are very racialized

    in this country right like the chiquita

    banana company

    especially with like us intervention in

    latin america in the 60s and 70s

    you can trace the migrant caravan

    from 18 months ago directly to

    you know us imperialistic military

    intervention

    in latin america you know like what does

    it mean to like

    use five bananas to create a little

    keyboard

    but also what does the mean to study

    around the labor movement

    in the fruit pickers of california and

    cesar chavez

    you know so it's like trying to tie

    music education

    and music technology in a social

    political and historical context because

    they're not set apart

    the way you describe that reminds me of

    janet barrett's discussions on like the

    multi-faceted nature

    of looking at a lesson or even a piece

    of music in terms of like if it's a gem

    like there's many angles that you can

    look at the sides from

    and so you might look at it from music

    related performance concepts and

    practices you might look at it from a

    historical

    practice you might look at it from an

    imperialistic side etc so

    yeah i really like that what are some of

    the surprises that have like come up

    when you've

    introduced some of these uh lessons and

    pedagogies in your class so like i can't

    remember who's a researcher that talks

    about things

    seen things unseen and things unforeseen

    i've been thinking a lot about like it's

    impossible to not be biased you know

    like

    and it's also impossible to like predict

    everything

    which is one of the beauties of teaching

    a lesson but like for example

    for two years in a row i taught a course

    at a high school level for

    juniors and seniors around using design

    thinking

    and also using like wiper youth

    participatory action research

    to create musical instruments

    i call them musical instruments to

    change the world around using makey

    makey

    and using recyclable and found objects

    to create music instruments now this was

    a stem

    class that high school students were

    half put in as a parking lot for

    kids that already had all their credits

    and then half

    of the students picked being there one

    of the things that i didn't realize is

    that

    a bunch of kids were like yo i i'm not

    passionate about music

    in this way i don't want to make a music

    instrument like i don't care about

    making a piano

    out of like cardboard and tin foil

    but i would love to make like an mpc

    i would like to make a sampler that i

    can

    use to explore like mental health some

    students were like

    you know what i don't really want to do

    any of the projects that you're talking

    about

    but it'd be really nice to create like a

    sound board

    my sister is a marine and i haven't seen

    her in two years

    and we used to connect around bts

    around like k-pop and so i want to make

    a sound board

    in tribute to my sister in which every

    button

    was a picture of her sister and he

    played like a specific example of a

    k-pop song

    so one of the surprises were how

    if you design the space to be

    open and you don't police it youth will

    meet it

    for sure there will be some kids that

    will be like whatever man i'm not doing

    anything

    and they won't do anything but that's

    fine i mean that's like

    you know whatever then at the end of the

    class then you'll that's the great that

    you'll have like we all make choices

    yeah but that's very very seldom

    the majority of people want to be

    creative they want to do something

    and so one of the things that i didn't

    realize where

    how me teaching a music technology class

    but being open to other things would

    make it so that

    we could actually engage in what music

    technology even is

    right and also do projects that i myself

    didn't know how to do like i

    right you know one student figured out

    how to put a couple of different videos

    together

    by using makey makey in scratch another

    student figure out how to make

    a bucket that every time that you put

    compost in it it

    talked to you and like i don't know how

    they did it i can go back and look at

    the code

    and kind of understand but i don't

    understand how they learn how to do it

    you know so that was something that sort

    of like that surprised me and another

    thing that surprised me

    in teaching stuff like this isn't just

    my own

    ability to gatekeep you know like

    what something is like i got into a huge

    argument with a student that actually

    had to be mediated and parents came

    and it got really ugly because his whole

    idea was like

    i don't want to make an instrument i

    want to make beats that

    help people study and you know and like

    this is also like a 17 year old you know

    who is like

    thinking like a 17 year old and me being

    like

    no my dude like we this is like you have

    to iterate you have to like

    you have to do some kind of coding and

    he was like well but why

    i want to make i want to solve the world

    but like you know i want to figure out

    and i want to research how

    what kind of music can mimic ritalin or

    adderall in the brain

    and i'm like that's dope you should do

    it but i need to see the iterations

    or i need to see so one thing that

    surprised me about me is like

    how i walk the line between you know

    being an educator and holding kids

    accountable

    and saying like if we are engaging in a

    design thinking process you really need

    to collect data

    but also being a little bit hands off

    and being like if you're that passionate

    about something go ahead and do it

    and then if you fail you fail which was

    something that in the time

    i wasn't willing to do because in the

    time i was like no you're doing it how

    i'm saying because

    you're gonna end up just like going on

    soundtrap and

    making like a boom boom boom bop you

    know

    sampling like a lo-fi keyboard sound off

    of youtube

    and that's gonna be your semester

    project and that's gonna be

    disrespectful

    which is it's funny because which is in

    a way what he ended up doing

    more or less but it surprised me that i

    was like

    in the interest of holding the line i

    perhaps didn't let him do what he wanted

    to do to begin which

    would have been brilliant yeah walking

    that line

    of like i'm totally a fan of open

    ended projects and whatnot so whenever i

    gave like

    here are three example projects that you

    can pick from the fourth option was

    always

    propose your own like every single time

    in the class because i wanted kids that

    opportunity

    but sometimes they propose something

    where i'm like okay you already know how

    to do that thing

    what are you going to learn that's new

    and trying to get them to dive deeper

    into that it was it was tricky

    navigating that at times because like i

    always was striving for continuous

    learning so whenever a kid would turn in

    a project i'd be like okay

    now what are you gonna learn next like

    it was never okay now you get a game day

    no like okay you learned something you

    showed your understanding of it you

    completed it

    and in your own timeline cool now what

    do you want to continue to learn

    and like continue to just dive into that

    it's it's sometimes difficult

    like as an educator whether it's music

    education or

    music technology it's something that we

    have to fight with like

    this like need to hold the line you

    don't need to be like but the project

    says this is what the project is

    right and even in open-ended projects

    like you know when you're working in a

    system

    of like formal education if a project

    doesn't have a rubric and if i'm not

    grading it by the rubric i'll lose my

    job

    anytime that we're part of a system we

    can't just be like

    screw it i'm not part of the system i'm

    just gonna do whatever i want

    right but actually like naming what the

    system is and

    and seeing how we can fight against the

    system

    from the inside but also naming that

    like

    i can't just like i'm part of a science

    teaching team all of a sudden i can't

    just be like

    oh whatever you know like you don't want

    to iterate three times whatever

    so in those cases like you need to have

    a really good reason for why you don't

    want to iterate three times

    so i know we've kind of unpacked this

    more in the past so i'm hoping that you

    can

    share some of it with the listeners so

    you mentioned systems and in education

    in particular i know that there

    and you know that there are systems of

    violence and oppression that are going

    on

    and i'm wondering like if you all of a

    sudden had a magical wand

    and could change some things what are

    some of the first things that you would

    change

    and why do those kind of come to mind

    every time that we talk about like the

    systems of oppression i think it's

    important to name like our

    positionalities because like

    i look at these systems of oppression

    from the outside and also from the

    oppressor side

    and also from the defender's side it's

    not like

    you're either or we're both you know

    like i'm both like a racist and an

    anti-racist

    as a white dude like i'm both like i've

    been socialized

    in a system that is racist imperialist

    patriarchal

    you know bill hux talks a lot about that

    i like to think of it

    more of like this one thing like think

    of it as a hydra

    you know you like chop off one head and

    then three more up here

    and then you chop two more and seven

    more appear behind you

    yeah it's like something that you have

    to kind of do every day

    i was just talking with co-workers today

    it's like i think this ability to

    commit to doing anti-racist work

    day in and day out and like the kind of

    anti-racism that is

    actually like anti-patriarchal and

    anti-colon

    you know like you know there's a lot of

    conversations around decolonizing

    species

    but like you know anti-colonizing some

    folks talk about like

    indigenizing spaces so i like to think

    about the kind of anti-racism that

    encompasses

    race gender homophobia right like

    sexual orientation ableism like schools

    are some of the most

    ableist places one of my colleagues and

    good friends like jesse rather ever

    talks a lot about

    how ableism is baked in the pie

    like a school is an abled place just

    from

    the design so how we can be antis right

    like

    all of the antis in knowing that that

    work is

    messy and also knowing that that work is

    day in and day out like

    i could have been an anti-racist

    yesterday

    but i can be racist today today

    very well i could stand to defend the

    rights of my female students

    to not being sexualized by the system

    and tomorrow

    i can police their wardrobe right

    it's not like an on and off switch is

    like i think angela davis also talks a

    lot about how

    you have to do anti-racist work every

    day

    so i think that the one thing that i

    would talk about whether it is in music

    education or in computer science

    education

    is a commitment to become

    an anti-racist educator every day

    and also dr bettina love talks a lot

    about abolitionist teaching

    all of these antis function on power

    right so like

    at some point we have to own that and

    how much power are we willing to

    give up you know like in order to

    interrupt racism in your place of work

    are you willing to jeopardize your job

    right you know are you willing to

    become a co-conspirator as opposed to

    just an ally

    you know dr bettina love talks a lot

    about how i can ally is like

    hey i'm sorry that somebody was racist

    to you

    or you know hey like the races or the

    cops are coming or

    the races are coming but this idea of

    like a kokon spirit or like putting

    their body on the line

    yeah how much are we willing to put our

    bodies and our jobs on the line

    in order to interrupt oppression and i

    think that that's really

    what is needed i mean i'm not saying

    like burn it all down i mean i

    in a way i am saying burn it all down

    but i'm not saying like

    you know get rid of your job and quit

    your job and settle on fire and burn the

    bridges

    what i'm saying is like it's so urgent

    that we especially

    we the people that hold the most power

    in this system

    which in schools and in societies in the

    united states

    is like white folks able-bodied white

    folks able-bodied

    male large extroverted folks right

    christian catholic all of the identities

    how can we

    use that as part of the piece that

    informs

    our transition from allyship to [ __ ]

    entrepreneurship

    in lesson design in our teaching if we

    are doing this work

    in the streets and if we're doing it out

    with students on one-on-one but our

    lessons are still like

    all readings of white men and we're only

    amplifying the work

    of like white folks and we're erasing

    the works of people of color

    that also falls short right there's one

    example that i recently heard that was

    saying if a police officer was

    going to tase somebody else like a black

    male

    and that black male was not resisting

    arrest was just kind of standing there

    just like hey i don't know why you're

    going to tase me an

    ally might be like hey you shouldn't be

    tasing that person

    but a co-conspirator would go up to that

    black male hold his hand

    and basically say like look if you're

    going to tase this person who's not

    resisting

    arrest you're also tasing me in the

    process as well because

    we're completing a circuit and whatnot

    so like that is kind of like a

    an example of a co-conspirator that

    example sounds really

    close to the example of that dr bettina

    love that gave in her

    talk in c-span which was around

    the activist brain use them with a

    flagpole and this dude who like nobody

    knows whose name is

    his name is james tyson went and touched

    the pole right

    and that actually saved bray newton's

    life but like what a wonderful lesson

    that would be for any kind of curriculum

    that involves electricity

    whether it's in third grade whether it

    is in first grade

    whether it is in college you know like

    if you can teach

    how to be a co-conspirator by the way an

    electric circuit works

    and you could do it through makey makey

    we have a lot more co-conspirators that

    allies

    what can educators do to learn more

    about it so like

    personally i didn't learn about and read

    about ableism until

    a few years ago and like there are all

    these different

    things that like whether it's

    anti-racist practice or ableism or

    unpacking and challenging sexism etc

    like

    how do you continue to learn more and

    how do you recommend other

    educators learn more and then actually

    act upon that

    it's funny because like as a i hold

    these two identities like as a jazz

    musician or

    just a musician everything is relational

    right like you call your boys you call

    your people

    to do a jam session they come to your

    house you like break bread you go to the

    deli you

    eat lunch play some more music the art

    of teaching is a very lonely thing right

    you're like staying up until three in

    the morning

    creating lesson plans and you're all

    alone and

    you teach music teachers are usually one

    teacher in the whole campus so number

    one i think that for me

    the most important thing has been

    creating and fostering and honing

    relationships

    it wasn't really until i had like a

    beautiful relationship with somebody

    who wasn't able-bodied for me to be able

    to be like oh shoot

    like this is something it was unseen

    right yep

    so like i did not know that this

    happened and also in that commitment to

    become

    more anti-racist every day i think it's

    the commitment to educate yourself

    to like seek you know that never-ending

    seek of knowledge

    there are lots of organizations the

    people's institute for survival and

    beyond

    has been doing this kind of anti-racist

    work for a long time

    in social media like you can tweet

    something and within a few minutes

    you'll have

    more information that you need you can

    write a description on it

    but it's the commitment to do it it's

    also but it's so much relational right

    like i belong to networks of people that

    are doing this work

    and that have been doing it for 30 40 50

    years and i belong to networks of people

    that just began doing this work

    yesterday

    right and so like saying like hey i like

    check out this youtube video hey like

    look at this there's a training coming

    up you know like

    and in doing the internal work of like

    of figuring out who one is and what made

    us be this way right

    i recently shared this quote that was

    like people think that racism is the

    shark in the water

    but actually racism is the water once we

    can stop thinking that like

    we are these individuals in like a

    system that works well

    actually looking at the system and being

    like i'm gonna

    commit to read authors of color i mean

    that's like a wonderful thing

    not because white authors don't have

    anything to say as a way to undo this

    system

    in which still to this day black

    scholars

    and black writers are only expected to

    write about race and racism

    right you i guess you do it the same way

    that you would do it

    like as a musician just started singing

    in guitar lessons i

    found a singer who i love who's a great

    singer

    and i'm paying him and like he's my

    singing coach and we meet every week

    over zoom and he sucks because singing

    over zoom suck

    but we still do it and whenever there's

    a vaccine we're gonna meet

    in person and so the same thing like i

    hate teaching drum lessons

    over facetime resume i just heard about

    jam track

    which is like a open-ended software that

    i think lets you jam

    in virtually real time with people that

    are i don't have 300 or 3 000 feet of

    you

    you know like you make it work like if

    you're committed to something

    you ask people there recently was a

    really beautiful it's called like a

    scaffolded anti-racist resources

    which is like meets people where they're

    at like if you've never thought about

    these

    like okay here it is do you disagree

    with reparations okay

    here you can read you can watch you can

    check out what other people saying

    you get stuck on looping around like all

    live matter

    okay so like read this that's accounting

    that people want to do the work right

    like people have to want to do the work

    but also i think that's the power when

    relationships come in like

    i have plenty of friends that do it with

    me where they're like

    call me and say hey like i've noticed

    you post something that

    seemed problematic let's chat about it

    yeah and i do that for certain people

    but those people are folks that i like a

    super trust

    right like they're not just messing with

    me and also they trust that i'm going to

    engage so i think the power of creating

    relationships are intentional

    i think is pretty liberatory so what

    about the educators

    who have kind of been silent whether it

    be fear of

    repercussions with jobs or fear of

    accidentally

    saying something that's problematic or

    taken in the way that was not intended

    etc do you have

    advice for any educators who want to

    speak up or learn how to speak up

    janelle monae says it's best like

    general money has this quote that says

    silence is our enemy

    music is our weapon i think that a

    certain point it goes back to being a

    co-conspirator and ally like

    are you willing to put your body on the

    line i'm also speaking from a privileged

    position

    of being like a white person a man i

    work

    in the public school systems in new york

    city i have a union that

    you know as flawed as they are they will

    back me up you know like

    yeah i can't just get fired for whatever

    reason i mean

    although i could they could always find

    a way but the status school has always

    used not just in education

    but especially in education this idea of

    a pink slip

    or like a firing papers to keep people

    silent right

    to keep upholding the status cool right

    so i think at some point we have to

    decide like

    are you going to be the kind of educator

    who lives in fear

    or are you going to stand up for

    defending the human rights of your

    students

    and of their families and also your own

    because we're all connected right

    i'm noticing my own privilege in that

    like i know there's a lot of people that

    cannot have those privileges

    but i think that it's really important

    to plant little seeds of activism

    i've had a lot of luck framing things

    around

    human rights i used to teach at a school

    that was

    mainly conservative it's actually a

    school for students on the autism

    spectrum

    lots of students and lots of teachers

    and lots of staff

    and administrators kind of used the

    students disabilities

    as a shield to not talk about racism

    because they were like

    oh they don't understand they don't

    understand or they don't

    focus on teaching them how to match

    colors

    or focusing on teaching them like how to

    whatever like

    play the drum on the ipad not knowing

    that race and disability is a huge

    intersection

    so planting little seeds i think is

    really wonderful and then tending to the

    seeds and watering the soil

    and taking care of them i begin the year

    being reprimanded for printing out

    the black panther party 10 point program

    in which we talked about

    where this idea of free breakfast like

    free school lunches came from

    and who was doing it and gotten

    reprimanded and i finished the year

    with a whole like black lives matter

    protest scene

    because we were doing the musical

    hairspray and

    we turned the scene of like the i know

    where i've been

    which is a black lives matter protest

    scene anyways

    turning it with full-on blm signs

    students marching up and down the school

    but

    we did little by little like the

    trusting the process of like

    slow change and planting seeds

    and creating allyships between teachers

    that was very powerful that that that

    changed

    the vibe that changed the culture in the

    school

    in some schools they might take a month

    in some schools they might take five

    years

    yeah i like that the idea of planting

    seeds and just

    small incremental changes building up

    compounding over time and whatnot

    one of my like scratch like a computer

    programming units that i did with like

    kindergarten first graders

    all we did was just look at climate

    change and then students

    made little play-doh buttons that played

    sounds

    that related to climate change also i

    think

    re-empowering educators to knowing that

    in the end nobody can make you be a kind

    of teacher that you don't want to

    right so we are able to teach any lesson

    that we want

    we just might have to play around with

    it how it looks like

    we might have to frame it differently

    you know like we all have developed

    coping strategies for like you know what

    to do when your administrator comes to

    watch you

    and observe you you know like i don't

    have to teach you how to like do that

    it's all a game right

    well there are many thousands millions

    of interactions

    that you can have with your students

    that can flip a switch

    you don't have to call it like i'm going

    to do a unit on racism

    right i mean you should we should but

    that unit on racism

    can start by just having small

    interactions that plant those seeds yeah

    i think that's important

    having been in some districts where

    there have been very conservative

    principles not necessarily

    like from like a conservative party

    standpoint but just like

    hesitant to engage in anything that

    might be controversial

    or considered that way i think it's

    important to find little ways

    who is a john kratis that called it

    small access subversion

    so that way you can kind of plant those

    seeds like you're saying i'm curious

    what

    are some of the questions around social

    justice that you're learning more about

    and diving into and how are you

    learning more about those right now i

    recently began identifying with that

    being an abolitionist teaching

    you know for many years i stand on

    prison and police abolition

    and that's very central to the work that

    i do as a restorative justice

    coordinator

    at my school i don't really know what

    defunding the police means

    i mean i know that defunding the police

    means defending it to less than zero

    right that's what defunding means the

    funding means zero but actually

    police departments are using our tax

    dollars

    to pay for lawsuits from when they kill

    an unarmed black person so in my opinion

    the funding should be like no you owe us

    money but

    i don't know what it means to replace

    the system

    so right now i'm doing work on learning

    what does it mean

    i'm part of a coalition of teachers

    administrators

    students and parents that are calling

    for police free schools

    i know what police-free schools mean but

    i'm learning more around

    actually like taking police out of

    schools and not addressing

    the reason why violence happens outside

    in neighborhoods it won't do that much

    so right now i'm learning about that

    and i'm trying to like be more conscious

    about it undercoved like

    i'm really scared of going back to the

    classroom yep i'm super healthy i live

    alone

    but i don't live in a bubble one of my

    favorite

    shops this dude is like 75 years old

    he's like the shopkeeper

    i live in a building with at least a

    thousand people

    many of them who are older caribbean

    folks so i'm really afraid

    for what it looks like as a teacher to

    go back into the classroom i'm hoping

    i'm working towards

    remote learning even though remote

    learning is not the best

    it is the safest so right now i'm

    learning around what does that look like

    what it would look like to be in a

    school where i know that

    my black and brown and queer and

    disabled students

    are going to be criminalized in the name

    of quote-unquote public health

    for not wearing masks all the time who i

    don't even know any adults other than

    doctors

    that wear a mask and don't complain

    about it for seven hours a day

    or they're gonna be criminalized for

    wanting to give each other hugs or

    eating lunch with a kid that is not in

    their cohort so

    those are questions that i have right

    now that are like and how may we

    use like technology as a music educator

    i'm like man i'm like

    how can i use like how can i set up like

    a bunch of like ipads around the schools

    where like

    a kid can like video chat with another

    kid in another cohort or

    right can we use something like free

    like makey makey and some scratch

    free programming to like i don't know do

    some kind of interactive

    something i don't have the idea fully

    functioned yet but like

    how can we lean in on what we have

    especially as music educators as opposed

    to like

    everybody's dying and buying a casket

    for like oh i can't teach band anymore

    or i i can't teach choir anymore

    yeah i get it sad like it's really sad

    we should mourn it

    and what are we gonna do like music is

    not going to stop

    right it's just gonna look different and

    sound different

    yeah like is there a way that we can

    lean on to whatever technologies we

    already have

    that are open and like free and

    accessible

    rather than like focusing on what we

    can't do anymore

    like how can we just continue living in

    a way that is meaningful

    i like that and i appreciate you sharing

    like the questions that you're exploring

    like personally just kind of

    also reciprocate that i'm really trying

    hard to learn how to

    listen and communicate with people that

    i strongly disagree with

    and to try and just understand where

    they're coming from so that way we can

    at least engage in some kind of a

    productive dialogue not to change their

    thought but just to

    better understand each other so that way

    it's like not any of this

    one side yelling at the other side and

    like as an example of that like

    so both my parents worked at a police

    station my dad was a police officer

    and yet i support defunding the police

    stations

    and the system and so when people hear

    that they're very confused and so i want

    to be able to communicate that in a way

    that's like well look

    instead of spending all this money on

    this like new york spends what

    several billions of dollars on it and

    instead of

    spending all the money on reactionary

    measures why aren't we spending more

    money on preventative measures like more

    social

    workers or free mental health care or

    community programs or things like that

    so

    when i bring that up then it makes

    defunding police sound less

    scary at least for some people i think

    that one thing that people don't know is

    again it's like we need to talk about

    system theory like in systems

    because when we focus on individuals

    like individuals

    can't create policy i mean sure like

    policy is created by some individuals

    but it's not the individual is the

    system

    some of the people that i love the most

    in my school are school safety officers

    the two people that i'm thinking about

    they're super kind

    they're wonderful they're two black

    women they're funny

    they have good relationship with our

    students

    they are ethical they treat our students

    right

    and i still don't want them there

    why because they are a part of a system

    that brings up violence upon my students

    yes i would love to retrain them as

    peace officers and

    whatever there's a talk they don't

    deserve losing their jobs

    as a matter of fact i want them in my

    school i don't want police officers in

    my school so

    when you shy away from talking about

    individuals so

    i'm not talking about your dad and i am

    talking about your

    like you know like it's like people are

    like whoa but my uncle is not a racist

    and he's a cop like that i'm not talking

    about your races or on race's uncle

    but it's the same thing in teaching you

    know it's like teachers we are also a

    system

    like one of my intersections is that i'm

    an anti-racist

    music educator i have in the classroom

    been and don racist things

    and i am a part of a system of people

    that do that right

    and the system itself is racist and

    misogynist there's this podcast

    it's called left right and center they

    call it civilized discussions

    i don't like the word civilized because

    it's been used to like

    tone police people especially like black

    people and indigenous people like

    like genocide with the carlisle schools

    like

    a whole bunch of people in the name of

    civilized

    but it's people it's like somebody on

    the left somebody on the right and then

    i'm

    a mediator that it's like in the center

    having conversations and

    i'm not necessarily interested in myself

    in having those conversations

    because my energy is spent elsewhere

    yeah but

    somebody has to do it and i think it's

    important so i've learned a lot from

    listening to that

    and i learned a lot from listening to

    democracy now and i learned a lot for

    the part so i think that

    again like go back to relationships like

    if you can have

    a conversation that is based on

    relationships where you can hear one

    another

    i think that's the main way people are

    going to change their minds or even

    begin to try to understand one another

    what do you wish there was more research

    on that could either inform your

    practices in terms of what you do as an

    anti-racist music educator or help

    others better understand the practices

    that you are doing and why you're doing

    them

    i mean to be honest i wish that there

    was more research published

    by non-white non-able-bodied

    i mean to be honest i wish there was

    more research published by

    folks on the autism spectrum by autistic

    people

    or people who are on the autism spectrum

    depending on how they identify

    i get really tired of reading research

    around music and in autism from like

    folks who like

    are not on the autism spectrum or at

    least don't disclose like which i guess

    you know nobody owes me closure there's

    so

    much research around like white folks

    talking about critical race pedagogy

    man there's a whole lot of black folks

    who are being gay kept

    who are doing this work you know like

    same thing with like

    technology and computer science i have

    loved mitch resnick's book

    like that's an amazing book i want to

    see where the other

    like indigenous computer programmers or

    queer

    or trans i mean like you know where it's

    like the research

    so much research on trans music

    education is by like cis music educators

    like cis white women

    right and it's like why is that

    the fight that you're fighting that's

    always like a question that i ask like

    so many white folks are doing research

    on like racism

    but like where's the research on

    whiteness i would love to see more

    research on

    technologies that are either free or

    easily accessible to people

    i mean making make is amazing but it's

    still fifty dollars and not that those

    guys don't deserve

    selling it for how much they sell

    because it's brilliant but like we are

    the things that everybody can access

    and how can we develop a system where

    you have folks who are monetizing like

    how much is mit monetizing

    off of technology and where is a place

    like mit's

    role in funding things that are open

    software

    i guess they do it with scratch and with

    plenty other things that i may not know

    about

    yeah they do have some open courseware

    stuff which is nice like you can learn

    like entire courses or like units of

    study

    with some of their online like moocs and

    not but yeah i totally understand where

    you're coming from

    i mean i also think that education

    should be free yeah i need more time to

    think about how i feel about this but

    part of me is like

    i know like for example like a small

    private school like sarah lawrence

    like upstate new york they're having a

    really hard time right

    with covet and enrollment and you know

    they actually might go bankrupt

    because it's a tiny school i don't feel

    too terrible

    that people are like yo i'm not gonna

    pay fifty thousand dollars

    a year to sit in my house on

    zoom and i kind of wish like harvard has

    what like a 40 billion dollar

    like endowment something like that like

    you know

    i don't feel bad for harvard like i

    don't like

    if it's gonna break may it break you

    know like what is the social

    justice part in being like hey we have

    all this money that we were planning on

    using for building a new stadium

    or a new gym and instead until there's a

    vaccine everybody takes classes for free

    right and our instructors get paid right

    because teachers salaries come from

    student enrollment

    which is like well how about you just

    write policies so that they don't so

    that your professors and your adjuncts

    are still getting paid

    your students are still getting their

    education

    and in a year you go back to charging 60

    a year yeah i totally hear you on that

    one i'm totally biased because like

    being

    working in education who's married to

    somebody who's a music therapist

    studying social work like i think both

    education and

    mental health services should all be

    free so that's my own

    biases on that and they are in other

    countries

    right i mean they're not free like

    people pay through taxes or

    but it's not like what we value right we

    value einsteins and we value like

    dr fauci's or i guess maybe now we don't

    but

    but we don't value like what the process

    of getting there

    right when dr fauci got all his degrees

    like how much did it cost to go to

    school

    i mean i have public school teacher

    friends who are getting their doctorate

    degrees and i'm getting in like

    a quarter of a million dollars in debt

    yep they're never gonna make that much

    money

    as a public school teacher yeah it's not

    gonna happen

    how do you prevent the burnout related

    to that so

    in education you're not making a lot of

    money you're working a lot especially

    now with kovid

    and you in particular are engaging with

    heavy issues

    that can be i guess for lack of a better

    word very draining emotionally because

    it's just it's that weight

    of knowing there's all these problems

    and being

    yet only one person trying to enact

    change like how do you prevent that

    burnout

    i don't prevent it some days i'm burnt

    out and some days i'm not again that

    goes through the power of relationships

    i am not just one person

    i think like whiteness thrives in the

    culture of like isolation or like i'm

    one person i'm the only person fighting

    for this like

    i'm part of like coalitions of like

    hundreds of people doing this work

    i remind myself that i don't have to

    finish the work

    and that i'm not here to solve racism or

    solve

    education but also i can't abandon it

    right yeah

    i feel energized by going to a protest

    and like playing my bucket drums and

    trying to find like i'm trying to like

    gamify

    like i have this like three buckets that

    are together

    and like i'm drilling holes in it and

    like attaching a cowbell to it

    figuring out like how to best wear it so

    that it doesn't like

    bruise my legs so that to me is actually

    like healing

    but also you know i'm going to the beach

    a lot i like

    you know i am a pretty social person

    like before kobe you know like i like

    go on dates with people i like focus on

    my friendships

    i love cooking i love eating like bougie

    sushi and like

    i love love love overpriced

    expensive silly like nitro

    cold brew coffee served with like you

    know

    kyoto cold brew 18 hour style

    like those things are kind of silly but

    it like i love sitting at a coffee shop

    and like drinking a coffee but it's like

    i cannot

    do this myself and like like that is

    really dope for me

    i like unplug my unplug from like the

    world by watching like

    maddie matheson like cooking videos in

    which he's like

    you know this dude he's like a huge dude

    that is fully tattooed canadian

    he makes delicious food but he's also

    like super crass

    and like you know and it's like dope

    it's like it's fun

    you know i'm like making beets i

    recently began exploring ableton like

    i never had the time before and so some

    days i mean i'm in therapy you know i do

    therapy every week

    some days i am pretty burnt out yeah and

    some days that i don't do the work and

    then others i'm like

    i'm gonna go to the be like after

    talking to you i'm gonna like

    talk to somebody else and i'm going to

    take the subway

    for 18 minutes and go to the beach and

    hang out and like

    eat fruit i have pretty destructive ways

    of like you know like i will eat a pint

    of ice cream

    right which like sometimes i'm like yeah

    i'm not burnt out anymore but i'm also

    just ate like 1200 calories of milk

    fat and sugar so i have to catch myself

    like ooh like

    that's not a good coping mechanism but i

    guess the the main thing to me has

    always been like relationships

    yeah that's a good point you know like

    this idea of self-care

    like is really good but actually

    community care

    is best you know i like i have a pretty

    small and great group of friends and

    that's really helped i have really close

    relationships with students

    and sometimes students like will text me

    or email me or call me or

    if we're in the same room they'll be

    like martine you gotta like you're not

    looking good like

    oh they'll like literally bring me my

    water bottle and be like i'm not leaving

    until you drank your water

    i teach high school students i do

    restorative justice work so we have a

    group called circle keepers

    but also i do like music with students

    like the musicians in my after school

    clubs and my

    rj kids have my cell phone number right

    and so it's very

    very common for me to get a text at like

    four in the morning

    because teens are up all night being

    like

    make sure you didn't eat a whole pint of

    ice cream

    but they know because we have the kinds

    of relationships

    that we we know one another right like

    paulo freitas talks a lot about like we

    cannot teach

    without revealing who we are yeah so i

    know what

    my students triggers are and they know

    like what my coping mechanisms are

    and so yeah that and also just sometimes

    it's okay to

    be burnt out yeah no that's a good point

    one of the reasons why i ask this

    question of guests is just because i

    want

    other educators to know that this is a

    very real thing and that their

    feelings are valid and there are

    potential ways to like work through it

    and whatnot

    you're in you're teaching your classroom

    and you're burnt out and you have to be

    there

    because whatever you can't take a sick

    day or a mental health day for whatever

    reason

    like what's the harm in sitting there

    and just

    telling your students like yo y'all i'm

    having a pretty terrible day

    like i'm not with it i'm burnt out what

    do you all think

    we can do can you take the day to like

    review can we do something fun

    can y'all like be extra kind and loving

    and can you like

    can we do this stupid or sorry i'm

    trying to use

    that word you know like can we just get

    through this because

    if i don't teach this 20 minute lesson

    i'm gonna get fired or written up

    y'all give me like throw me a bone let's

    get through this 20 minute lesson

    together

    and then you guys have 40 minutes or you

    folks have 40 minutes

    to just like study hall and any time

    that i've done that

    youth have been like oh man how can we

    help you you know

    and it's created a beautiful like sense

    of vulnerability

    and again it's better the relationship

    yeah i really

    appreciate you sharing that where might

    people go to connect with you

    i'm on like social media at liberation

    drums i have two websites

    one which is that's my personal which is

    martine erbach m-a-r-t-i-n-u-r-b-a-c-h

    com and then i have my website which is

    the liberationdrumcircles.com

    which is the youth participatory action

    research

    and youth music activism that i do with

    teens

    and with that that concludes this week's

    episode of the csk8 podcast

    i really hope you enjoyed this

    conversation with martin i know i

    certainly did

    i always learn a lot when i communicate

    with him and a friendly reminder many of

    the resources that were mentioned in

    this are directly linked to in the show

    notes just go to this through the app

    that you're listening to is on or by

    visiting jaredoleary.com

    stay tuned next week for another

    unpacking scholarship episode

    which by the way i'm going to be

    unpacking pedagogy of the oppressed

    which was mentioned in this interview

    and in other interviews but that's going

    to release sometime in

    september or october still figuring out

    the dates for that so stay tuned for

    that and also stay tuned for two weeks

    from now which will be another interview

    i hope you're all having a wonderful

    week and are staying safe

Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode

  • Other podcast episodes that were mentioned or are relevant to this episode

    • Breaking the Code: Confronting Racism in Computer Science through Community, Criticality, and Citizenship

      • In this episode I unpack Yadav and Heath’s (2022) publication titled “Breaking the code: Confronting racism in computer science through community criticality, and citizenship,” which articulates some biases in CS curricular design and pedagogy, then provides three suggestions for teaching CS as an agenda for social reconstruction.

    • Culturally Responsive-sustaining Computer Science Education: A Framework

      • In this episode I unpack the Kapor Center’s (2021) publication titled “Culturally responsive-sustaining computer science education: A framework,” which describes multiple courses of action for six core components of culturally responsive-sustaining CS education.

    • Decolonizing Education through SEL and PBL with Matinga Ragatz

      • In this interview with Matinga Ragatz, we discuss Matinga’s journey into education, creating environments where kids can learn through struggle, the importance of social and emotional learning (SEL), how schools promote individualism and exceptionalism, the intersections of project-based learning and SEL, decolonizing education, the importance of shared values in education, and so much more.

    • How to Get Started with Computer Science Education

      • In this episode I provide a framework for how districts and educators can get started with computer science education for free.

    • Intersections of Cultural Capital with Kimberly Scott

      • In this interview with Kimberly Scott, we discuss some of the problems with discourse around grit, students as techno-social change agents, teaching with culturally responsive approaches in communities that are hostile toward culturally responsive pedagogies, unpacking discourse and Discourse, considering both present and future identities when teaching, potential disconnects between theory and practice with intersectional work, comforting the disturbed and disturbing the comforted, and so much more.

    • Liberatory Computing Education for African American Students

      • In this episode I unpack Walker, Sherif, and Breazeal’s (2022) publication titled “Liberatory computing education for African American students,” which unpacks and situates the five pillars of the liberation framework proposed by El-Amin within data activism modules.

    • Lifelong Kindergarten with Mitch Resnick

      • In this interview with Mitch Resnick, we discuss misconceptions people have around the four P’s (Projects, Passion, Peers, and Play) in Mitch’s book, encouraging depth of understanding while playing, what has surprised Mitch during his career, encouraging online communication and collaboration without creating artificial engagement, what Mitch wishes we’d see more of and discuss in CS education, our pet peeves with unplugged activities and computational thinking, accounting for survivorship bias with Scratch, expanding our focus on equity and inclusion to include both the “who” and the “how,” the importance of experimenting and learning through play, and much more.

    • Nicki Washington is Unapologetically Dope

      • In this interview with Nicki Washington, we discuss the importance of cultural competency, expanding beyond “diversity” by focusing on creating inclusive and equitable environments, learning from people and scholarship outside of the field, lessons learned working with CS educators across the country, lessons learned while teaching during a pandemic, focusing on the humanity in computer science education, and much more. If you haven’t listened to it yet, check out the unpacking scholarship episode that unpacks one of Nicki’s papers.

    • Promoting Equity and Activism in Computer Science Education with Kim Wilkens

      • In this interview with Kim Wilkens, we discuss embracing failure, encouraging activism and community impact through CS and technology, supporting marginalized gender identities in CS, and much more.

    • Racial Justice Amidst the Dangers of Computing Creep: A Dialogue

      • In this episode I unpack Shah and Yadav’s (2023) publication titled “Racial justice amidst the dangers of computer creep: A dialogue,” which presents a dialogue that problematizes issues around racial justice in computing education.

    • Re-examining Inequalities in Computer Science Participation from a Bourdieusian Sociological Perspective

      • In this episode I unpack Kallia and Cutts’ (2021) publication titled “Re-examining inequalities in computer science participation from a Bourdieusian sociological perspective,” which uses Bourdieu’s discussions of capital, habitus, and field to analyze 147 publications on CS interventions.

    • The Shire as Metaphor for Systemic Racism with Joyce McCall

      • In this interview with Joyce McCall, we unpack and problematize some of the issues around race and racism in relation to education. In particular, we discuss the importance of allies not only showing up to support marginalized or oppressed groups, but staying when conversations get uncomfortable; the Shire from the Lord of the Rings as a metaphor for hegemony and systemic racism; as well as a variety of theories such as critical race theory, double consciousness, cultural capital; and much more.

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