Promoting Equity and Activism in Computer Science Education with Kim Wilkens

In this interview with Kim Wilkens, we discuss embracing failure, encouraging activism and community impact through CS and technology, supporting marginalized gender identities in CS, and much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast my name is Jared O'Leary in

    this week's episode I'm interviewing Kim

    Wilkins Kim and I were introduced to

    each other on Twitter as have been

    several of the other guests that you've

    heard on the show so if you're

    interested in being on the show hit me

    up on Twitter or send me an email by

    contacting me on my website which is

    Jared O'Leary comm now in this interview

    with Kim we discuss embracing failure

    both as students and teachers we also

    talked about Kim's approach to

    encouraging activism and community

    impact through computer science and

    technology as well as a discussion on

    supporting marginalized gender

    identities in computer science this

    podcast pairs nicely with the interview

    with Sarah Judd which you can find a

    direct link to in the show notes

    speaking of you should be able to access

    the show notes by clicking the link in

    the description of the app that you're

    listening to this on otherwise just

    visit jared O'Leary comm and with that

    being said we will now begin with Kim

    introducing herself so my name is Kim

    Wilkins and I am in Charlottesville

    Virginia I teach computer science

    kindergarten through eighth grade at

    Saint Anne's Belfield school and it

    started basically the computer science

    program there but before that I started

    an organization called tech girls and

    great need to have more girls coming to

    the computer science and technology

    fields okay tell me the story of how you

    got into CS education sure it was not a

    direct path I actually graduated

    computer science in 1987 it was awhile

    ago and I went to work at IBM so I was

    all in doing things in corporate America

    I was very ambitious and went up the

    corporate ladder and then when we moved

    to shouts ville it also had my son by

    then and there was no IBM here and there

    were other things that happened that

    really made me realize that maybe

    corporate America dreams were not my

    dreams and so I started doing consulting

    work so when I was at IBM one of the

    things I learned was I was a

    publications manager and publications

    were the foundation of HTML tags and so

    you know I knew how to do websites very

    early on because I had learned that

    skills so that's kind of the things I

    was doing I was creating websites for

    people and doing testing and things like

    that and so as you know very much

    working in the gig

    me part-time basis and one gig came up

    my best friend was working at a school

    and they needed a computer lab set up

    and I also set up computer labs so I'm

    like sure I'll do that and then the

    principal said hey would you like to

    teach technology because it turns out

    you know there weren't a lot of

    technology teachers did I was in between

    gigs and it was going to be part-time

    still and I thought well sure I'll try

    it out and so that's when I started

    teaching teaching technology I didn't

    know that teaching computer science was

    like not usually part of that it was

    usually keyboarding and learning about

    office apps and stuff like that but I

    talk coding because you know that's what

    I do and I really fell in love with that

    I especially loved working with the

    middle school students which a lot of

    people find interesting and I did that

    that's cool for about a year and a half

    and then they had a change of principles

    and they decided you know they wanted

    somebody who had the education

    background and had a certificate and all

    that and I didn't want to go through

    that at that point so then I went

    actually to where my son was going to

    school and started volunteering there

    doing technology and wound up Ashley

    teaching computer science there for a

    bit and yeah that's that's how it

    happened I sort of stumbled into it so

    one of the things that I'm fascinated

    about is just how people learn and some

    of the processes involved with that so

    I'm wondering if you were to just

    suddenly lose your memory and had to

    relearn like how to teach her just

    computer science in general where would

    you start and how would you begin to

    develop that mastery and write well I

    basically had to do that you know

    because I was not in education when I

    started and the first thing I did was I

    looked for resources online connecting

    with educators I actually went to a

    conference I was actually the Grace

    Hopper celebration of women in computing

    conference in 2010 and they had a k-12

    track at the time and so I was really

    interested because I wanted to go find

    out

    you know what other people were doing in

    technology education because it was and

    still is a very brand-new field and

    there were not any curriculums out there

    any scope and sequence stuff like that

    so I was kind of making things up and

    trying to find others who were doing it

    so you know that's one way that I

    connected with other educators that was

    also the conference where I learned that

    women studying computer science have

    taken such a dive so when I was studying

    it was 37 percent were female and in

    I think maybe it's gone up a little but

    it's really still quite bad so that's

    also when I decided you know in addition

    to teaching technology I also need to do

    something extra because I need to help

    solve this problem of why there not more

    girls and women studying computer

    science so looking for communities I

    also got active on Twitter then and it's

    been such a powerful tool for me to

    connect with other educators to find out

    what they're doing to get links to

    resources to share ideas grach was also

    one of the first tools I started using

    and that community is very strong so I

    think you know finding a community that

    you can interact with and get feedback

    from and things like that yeah I have a

    love/hate with social media and

    communities and whatnot because like on

    one hand like I'm able to meet and learn

    from awesome people like we got

    connected through Twitter but on the

    other hand I find myself spending too

    much time on it if I dive into it so I

    just try and dive in like once a day do

    a few minutes okay I'm done

    that's my problem too but I think the

    benefits outweigh the costs so far right

    so I'm wondering aside from like finding

    other communities and whatnot what were

    some of the things that you wish you

    knew when you first started teaching CS

    or coding that you could recommend for

    new CSS Gators one of the things is just

    being willing to try things out because

    this is such a new field and there

    aren't actually a lot of resources even

    still you kind of have to just be

    willing to experiment and try things and

    be willing to fail and that's a pretty

    big ask for educators these days I'm

    comfortable with that feeling anyway but

    just knowing that that's the way it's

    gonna go whenever you bring in computer

    science in the classroom the other thing

    that I learned really is that I can

    learn so much from the students I can't

    tell you the number of tools the number

    of tricks or the number of ideas that

    have gotten from students that I have

    now incorporated into teaching so I

    think just being willing to be open to

    what students bring to the table is

    super important

    yeah even just the things that they want

    to create that you hadn't thought of at

    first like there have been many

    different game types or stories or

    things that the kids wanted to create in

    the various languages that I worked with

    or they're like how do I do this thing I

    mean like I haven't thought about that

    yet let's let's work on it

    right exactly it's also scary because

    you know you don't know the answer

    you know my big skill is that I know how

    to look up answers and that's what I try

    to model like yeah I don't know you I

    don't know the answer to your question

    but here's how I would go and try to

    find the answer yeah could you unpack

    that a little more like how do you model

    that thought processes that is

    definitely something that I tried to do

    in the classroom as well actually like

    just doing it with them right if they're

    really stuck on something I sit with my

    computer next to them okay what are you

    trust a con okay this is what I would do

    and I do the search and I you know go

    look with them all so I try to every

    lesson I do that I know those things

    might come up I try to provide a list of

    resources where the students can go

    themselves and try to look up answers

    it's hard to curate things if you just

    like doing a search for it so I really

    like the idea of just okay let me

    compile some resources and make it

    easier for kids to find them in one

    space I mostly go into classrooms so I'm

    not doing pulled out classes which I

    love and I can tell you the reasons

    behind that I mean going into classrooms

    where I'm seeing a wide variety of

    ranges of experience having done coding

    before or computer science activities

    before and so I need to take all that

    into consideration so the other thing I

    do is I always have sort of the baseline

    requirements that I'd like them to get

    and I always have challenged activities

    for those kids who want to take it a

    step further and I'm challenged

    themselves so you know the baseline

    activities come with a lot of

    scaffolding from me to help students get

    through it but those challenge

    activities are more independent

    activities that the kids have to show

    that they are able to do some research

    and problem-solving on their own yes

    sometimes like when I create these

    open-ended suggestions for generating

    ideas kids will create things that are

    oftentimes hilarious or just like

    absolutely fascinating and like blow my

    mind right yeah yeah you mentioned your

    preference for pullout classrooms could

    you explain that a little more

    so not pullout so my preference is

    integrated classroom so one of the

    reasons I took this job is because in

    the past I'd always been a separate

    class right and so either our students

    had the self-select into it or they had

    timeout in the schedule to do it and

    either of those options even if I see

    all the students but it's a separate

    time I'm not connected to the other

    subject areas and the things that

    they're already learning and I feel like

    doing technologies for technology's sake

    is really not very useful and it's not

    relevant to what their experience is so

    that's one reason I like to be

    integrated but the other reason is this

    idea of having to self-select

    into computer science and engineering

    classes I feel like because of the

    stereotypes and the biases and a lot of

    things that have built up this problem

    that we have with diversity in computer

    science

    means that a lot of kids won't self

    select in because they feel like you

    know they're going to be the only they

    don't have the experience it's not their

    field and so by going into the classroom

    and being integrated with the subject

    area all the students get to experience

    that we sort of D stigmatize what

    computer science really means and I feel

    like that is one of the ways that we can

    solve this diversity issue in this field

    yeah I definitely enjoyed the k-8

    classes that I worked with because it

    was mandatory it was in its own space so

    I didn't go into a classroom that came

    to my classroom but every kid received

    computer science in the school it was

    nice yeah I think the other nice thing

    about going into a classroom is then

    you're also exposing the teachers in the

    classroom to computer science and so

    then they are able to kind of see what

    it means see what it looks like and

    starts integrating it on their own so at

    the school I'm at this is my sixth year

    there and I guess I started doing

    integration projects in the second year

    the first year is kind of getting a lay

    of the land and experimenting with some

    things but every year I've been able to

    expand the things I can do because

    educators have stepped up to start doing

    integration projects on their own which

    is also pretty exciting that's great

    yeah one of the things that I've

    recommend in previous interviews is each

    year just adding a little more or trying

    something different or iterating on

    things and not trying to do like a

    billion things at once because it can

    get overwhelming exactly yeah the fact

    that you are in another teachers

    classroom and they are able to see

    things sounds wonderful like there were

    several teachers that I had no idea what

    they actually looked like because they

    just like drop their kid

    off outside my door and I wouldn't see

    them until like several months into the

    school year and it just happened to be

    like oh you're that elusive person that

    I've never met right right I'm curious

    what comes to mind when you think of

    what a engaging learning experience or

    environment is number one it needs to be

    fun like I don't want to go to school

    and not have fun when I'm with kids so I

    also want the kids to have fun I think

    it needs to be relevant so it needs to

    be something that is you know best if

    it's something relevant to the students

    themselves but at least relevant to what

    they're learning in their day and then

    finally it has to have some amount of

    choice so that the students can take

    ownership their projects and what does

    that continuum of choice look like in

    your ideal environment because choice

    could be like choose between a and B or

    it could be something like create

    something that's interesting to you

    right so I try to set up projects where

    I have the guardrails I guess you could

    say like these are the things you have

    to have with the project but then very

    open to the choices that students make

    within it so I try to stay away from the

    ABC choices of more ABC you have to have

    and then the rest is up to you and those

    have to have surveyed like three

    standards or concepts or practices yeah

    it's more concepts and practices because

    I'm at a private school you know I do

    have a scope and sequence and I do look

    at all the standards that are out there

    and Virginia is actually one of the

    first states that has a set of computer

    science standards so I do look at them

    and infuse them but I'm more about the

    practice and the are they understanding

    the concepts I'm curious in terms of an

    engaging experience or environment how

    does that understanding kind of inform

    advice you might give when integrating

    CS into another subject area

    okay so I've called it anatomy of a CS

    integration project I have it in things

    to strive for in things to avoid so the

    problem of the project should be

    authentic and relevant

    I love incorporating design thinking

    principles into projects and that the

    problem drives a project not the SIA

    standards what I try to do is create non

    CS teacher scaffolding for resources

    that I share either online or ones where

    I'm working with my

    teachers to help them integrate CS

    lesson so it's not just scaffolding for

    our students but it's also for educators

    this isn't their natural habitat

    so video tutorials are a thing I often I

    tried a different you like I said from

    sort of baseline requirements to giving

    kids challenges I like to recognize

    students as mentors in fact this is a

    great tool that non CS educators can use

    as well as once they're gonna have a kid

    in the class who gets it and is able to

    help explain it to their peers so really

    I gotta find those kids and helping them

    thrive in that environment I like a

    ratio of very little me explaining

    things and more kids doing things and

    then I do a lot of unplugged activities

    so also setting those boundaries of when

    is it okay to be on the computer and

    doing things and when do I need your

    attention and so just you know simple is

    when I'm having to give a lesson or I'm

    having a student do it you know we close

    our computers and then we can open them

    up for the work that we need to do and

    then a big thing for me is also modeling

    and celebrating mistakes especially in

    computer science and to me it was Joe I

    was just natural like I knew you know

    the first time I did it was not gonna

    work like that's just the way it is but

    students and educators find that

    troubling often and so just getting over

    that mindset of it's gonna fail it's

    gonna be fine you know okay that's just

    how things are is a really big emphasis

    that I place on when I'm going into

    classrooms with computer science yeah

    allow for student choice and creativity

    within clearly documented design

    constraints and then I you know never

    use any sort of test the way I figure

    out how students have learned is through

    their work in a recent interview with

    Justin Kennedy we talked about failure

    and I explained that a former district

    that I worked in the administrators did

    not allow us to fail they said that it

    was not an option for us as educators

    because we just didn't have enough time

    so I'm wondering how you would respond

    to an administrator who kind of has a

    similar viewpoint when it comes to

    failure in a CSS or coding class that

    would baffle me because we all fail

    right and you learned like failures how

    we learn so I would say you know there

    are professional programmers

    King six-figure salaries who fail

    everyday at their job because they have

    to do that in order to get to their

    solution they're problem-solving they're

    getting through these you know difficult

    situations inventing new things but that

    all requires experimentation and

    learning from what went wrong yeah and

    these were music education

    administrators so I don't know if it

    just has to do with a difference in the

    field in that in music education you are

    constantly preparing for a performance

    and that performance is ideally supposed

    to be a perfected work that you are

    presenting to people but in computer

    science it's more about the process even

    though there's a ton of practice that

    goes into music education that's not

    what you're showing to the audience or

    to other people there is similar in that

    you know software development you are

    going toward setting something out to

    the public and so it goes through all

    these processes to get it ready for

    public consumption you're going through

    sets of failure which I assume you are

    when you're preparing to present your

    music music as well right yeah so I

    think the processes are just very

    similar but yeah what part are you

    focusing on right and you know even the

    end result in software engineering even

    something you put out in the public

    somebody's gonna find it back so when I

    was at IBM one of my jobs was a test

    engineer and I could break anybody's

    code and I still feel like him I mean

    there's no perfect piece of software out

    there right so one of the things I had

    read is that you're really into getting

    kids into activism I'm wondering how can

    kids become activists through computer

    science and tech and engagement sure so

    one of the things that we started with

    something called the spark hackathon and

    it's a high school hackathon for kids

    not just at our school but throughout

    the region and we started it because we

    knew that the kids that we had were

    really excited about computer science

    but they weren't getting a chance to

    really practice it in the real world and

    we also knew that there were companies

    in our region who were really interested

    well they would love to see more

    computer science graduates and they

    wanted to really make a connection with

    what was happening in education and so

    we brought these two together so the

    hackathon is Saturday and Sunday

    and on Saturday we call that allure

    Nathon so there's workshop times in the

    morning and work sometimes in the

    afternoon where kids can sign up to

    learn something maybe even they've never

    learned before and most of the workshops

    are put on by people in the community

    who are passionate about you know

    certain things in technology and then in

    the late afternoon we have four

    companies sponsor problems and so they

    come up with real-world problem

    statements that's something that they're

    working on and they like help with or

    just something that they know is needed

    in the Charlottesville community and

    then the students choose to work on one

    of those problems and they sell select

    into teams and things like that and the

    rest of the hackathon they're working on

    solving this problem we've often heard

    from students it's one of the first

    times that they've been able to take

    what they learned and apply it in the

    real world and some of them go on and

    take their project to next levels

    there's an incubator in town that has

    had some hackathon participants you know

    some of them have gotten internship

    opportunities out of it because they

    have made these connections with the

    tech companies so that's one of the ways

    that we feel like gives them ownership

    and agency in what they are actually

    able to do with computer science yeah

    and I have really mixed emotions

    listening to that response like on one

    hand like I think it's wonderful that

    kids found even seeing the ability to

    kind of apply their understandings and

    something that's interesting to them

    that could impact the world outside of

    school but on the other hand the fact

    that this is like the first time that

    they're finding that it's just like it's

    a problematic like what is the purpose

    of Education if it's only going to apply

    within school boundaries and not apply

    outside of it totally agree yeah it is

    it is very frustrating them that's where

    we are with education and what kind of

    impact do you hope kids have through

    their activism well what we have found

    especially with the kids that are in our

    program so we're a pre k12 school so I

    do k-8 but I have a couple colleagues

    who are in the nine through twelve and

    so kids have been through a program now

    and they are coming back to see us

    Institute we run that I can tell you

    about CSM suit in a bit but that's a

    conference that we run for local k-12

    educators to help them get more

    comfortable with computer science and

    the last one we had last summer base

    we had students come in and run the

    morning portion of it so the educators

    could see like this is the impact it has

    when students feel empowered to take

    computer science on and use it in their

    lives you know I've seen it personally

    they're so passionate about that they're

    willing to share it with other educators

    we also run a couple of CS summer

    programs for middle and high school

    students and we have had students

    volunteer with that this last hackathon

    they actually took ownership of the

    hackathon more than they ever had before

    I think we had seven student organizers

    and so they actually wound up running a

    lot of the workshops because they have

    that level of skill now so it's things

    like that when you see the students

    taking it beyond just doing it in the

    classroom but wanting to share it with

    others yeah that's great and you

    mentioned the CS Institute what is that

    so that is a 2-day event during the

    summer we did it the first year in 2017

    CNET bells field school has a PD that

    they do in the summer and we were

    actually the focus of that professional

    development so I mean that's an amazing

    thing to have your schools say yeah

    computer science is so important that

    all of you needs to get on board and do

    something with it so that was amazing we

    didn't do in 2018 but in 2019 University

    of Virginia is here so we got the curry

    School of Education and this computer

    science department to collaborate with

    us and help us put on the CS Institute

    this past year so we had 55 educators

    from around the community come we really

    wanted to highlight students work and

    you know what it means to students to

    have computer science education access

    so the students Ram part of it and we

    secretly run it like the hackathon we

    just don't call it that because we know

    that educators would not sign up to come

    to a cath lab that basically the first

    day is like the hackathon with the

    workshops and then in the afternoon the

    problem statement is how are you going

    to integrate at least one computer

    science lesson the next year and then

    the next day is all about helping

    educators come up with a plan we want

    them to actually try something out the

    next year you know a lot of conferences

    you go to you get so much information

    but you never get to process it and then

    have a plan with it and so that whole

    second day is we have all these mentors

    here who have done this before we have

    them split up two groups that are

    affinity groups where they can start

    brainstorming lessons and

    come out at the other end with something

    they can try out and this year also the

    UVA curry school is interested in

    following a cohort of educator so we

    also have a cohort of k-8 educators who

    are meaning up I guess quarterly now to

    kind of give them that extra support

    that they might need to do see us

    integration at their school so how are

    you or the kids that you work with kind

    of striving for impact beyond your

    community for me I started the tech

    girls to kind of do stuff in the

    community I was gonna do that and you

    know share it broadly but then I got

    this full-time job which I left and was

    has been very helpful to me but I've

    also learned a lot about creating

    computer science lessons about helping

    other educators who don't have computer

    science backgrounds get on board and so

    my dream is now to kind of take the work

    that I've been doing in that space and

    the tech grows work which is all about

    finding ways to include more people in

    computer science bring those together

    and share it out so I'm actually going

    to be starting my EDD at the curry

    school that sort of focus of taking all

    these lessons and sharing them out so

    I've already started doing a little bit

    of that there's something called go open

    VA which started to share out lessons

    for educators to be able to remix them

    and things like that and the focus this

    first year is really been on computer

    science lessons because of this new set

    of standards have come out in Virginia

    so that's one of the first ways trying

    to go out share but I also you know go

    to conferences and speak and share out

    everything I do on websites and Twitter

    so I've got a website called miss - bit

    comm which is my personal website and

    then tech girls is tech - girls org

    where a lot of resources exist and so he

    kind of briefly hinted at this I had a

    couple of points but what questions or

    concerns do you have about equity and CS

    and Technology education

    so obviously the biggest one is the lack

    of diversity in gender and people of

    color so I think you know the stats for

    those are pretty clear and how non

    equitable it is and so some of the

    founding principles that Tech Rose was

    built on was actually from dr. Joanne

    Cahoon and she tweeted out many years

    ago that I just latched on to and became

    sort of founding principles of

    marking interest so I think you'll find

    in a lot of studies that the interest is

    actually there at young ages and then

    stereotypes and bias and other things

    crop up in middle school and beyond so

    one of the programs we have is

    elementary school program called girls

    geek day to really kind of spark or keep

    that interest going and doing in a way

    where we're helping them build their

    confidence nurturing this community so

    they can see themselves because they see

    all these other girls interested in it

    and then helping them develop a tech

    identity they kind of can take them

    through maybe the harder more

    challenging times so I think those are

    the things that a lot of programs you

    know could focus on so they could have a

    more inclusive community and how do you

    develop an identity as somebody who's

    interested in tech or computer science

    so I think you know just getting

    hands-on with things trying coding

    things out so the girls geek day is once

    a month and the girls get to select from

    eight or nine different options I get to

    select three of them for 45 minutes so

    it's not a lot of time they don't need a

    lot of time but it's hey I tried scratch

    out in I created this thing I did bits

    box and I you know coded in JavaScript

    with and made this thing I got hands-on

    with some robotics and I saw that these

    high school girls are on robotics team

    so you know to me it doesn't have to be

    a huge amount of effort but it's just

    helping them see that yes they can

    create things and yes there are role

    models out there and yes you belong you

    know I think finding that community of

    other people that you identify with is

    very important for assisting with that

    process and it's also nice that you

    you're doing this I believe you said

    once a month as opposed to just like

    once a quarter or semester or one time

    in the year like alright we're gonna do

    our once a year celebration of people

    who you identify with and you won't see

    them again for a year right yeah now to

    me it was important that we did it more

    often and we're in our eighth year

    amazingly enough and the cool thing is

    we've been around so long now that we

    have people who've got you know girls

    who have gone through the program now

    who are now coming back and offering

    workshops that's great they're

    volunteering with tech girls we do have

    a middle school program which has been a

    little more challenging to get right

    I'll say I did try the girls who code

    Club model which I like but it's once a

    week and that was really hard for both

    me and the girls to commit to but that

    didn't quite work out but I know that

    you know there have definitely been

    successful grow to code clubs I don't

    want to discourage anybody but that just

    didn't work out with our model the thing

    that I've stumbled upon that seems to be

    working except when I can't get my act

    together is we're calling yes we tech

    would like to have it monthly but it's

    basically going into a business or an

    organization that does some tech related

    things and having them host the girls so

    they get kind of behind the scenes of

    what really is happening in this

    organization and then have female role

    models from that organization either do

    a roundtable or some sort of hands-on

    activity with the girls I think a lot of

    not just girls but a lot of people just

    do not understand what tech companies do

    and it's really hard to because there's

    so many different things you can do the

    other thing I'm also one of the founding

    board members have charlottesville women

    in tech and we even get women who even

    though they work in tact if they're not

    coding or doing something what they

    consider a really you know hardcore

    attack they don't consider themselves

    part of technology and so just getting

    over that I don't know stereotype or

    whatever it is I think we are really all

    in technology you know all companies or

    technology companies in some form or

    fashion

    and so just breaking down whatever

    barrier it is for women and girls to

    think they're not intact you know it

    sounds like you have a lot of local and

    community resources and people that you

    can connect with and draw upon to kind

    of assist with this I'm curious

    what you might recommend for educators

    who are like yeah this sounds awesome

    I'd love to do this but I'm in a rural

    setting and there's not a lot of tech

    companies around where we live or

    there's not a lot of women and tech

    around where we live how can I find

    resources or people to connect with that

    could help the kids that I work with

    yeah I think you you'd be surprised

    you know Cheryl it's not huge by any

    standard of measure but I think you just

    got to start you know for me it was just

    having this passion that I needed to do

    something to address up this problem

    whether it was you know just a little

    thing and just you'll find other people

    who would like to help but they don't

    know how to start something as well so I

    think you know start small maybe start

    with your own education community see

    who else might be interested again for

    me Twitter was super helpful in finding

    organizations there's also other local

    organizations in my town that I reached

    out to that help nonprofits that work

    with the business community that work

    with the tech community the University

    of Virginia's here there's also a

    Piedmont Community College so any

    resources like that from higher

    education would be great but I think

    you'll find that there are resources

    there if you start digging a little

    mm-hmm

    like nCWIT and whatnot yeah exactly

    which I'll put a link to in the show

    notes if people are unfamiliar with it

    yeah in fact when I started techgirls

    I connected with Kimberly Bryant at

    black girls code I connected with the

    founder of girl develop it I reached out

    to all these national organizations

    working with women in tech and girls in

    tech and they're all very supportive and

    really want to help out so yeah I think

    even if it's starting at that national

    scale you'll get help because there are

    a lot of people that want to see this

    addressed I'm curious as somebody who

    identifies as non-binary I find it

    interesting that the discourse on gender

    doesn't often include people who

    identify outside a male or female and

    I'm wondering if you know of any

    resources that might assist with

    educators who want to learn more about

    that that is a good question that I do

    not I mean no I don't that is an area

    that I also need to focus on because

    I've been so focused on you know this

    gender issue in the binary but yeah I

    don't unfortunately have resources for

    that yeah and I don't really know if any

    as well I mean honestly it's just it's

    not part of a conversation which is like

    one of the reasons why I'm just like

    open like yeah hey I'm a non-binary or

    non-conforming and it's not something

    I've talked about so I'm gonna kind of

    talk about it yeah and I think it starts

    there right right that's how it's gonna

    start yeah I know nCWIT has some

    resources on it and I'll include some

    links to that but there's not enough in

    my opinion and I think getting more

    women and girls into computing and

    technology is wonderful but I also think

    there's like other parts or other people

    identify with different gender types

    that aren't really being discussed I

    guess for a while what I was thinking at

    least was a lot of the reasons that

    girls haven't gone into tech are a lot

    of the reasons

    people haven't gone into tech right

    because it had the stereotypes about

    being in your basement alone you know

    not working with others not really

    making a difference things like that and

    there was a study I can't quote it for

    you now but I remember reading it that

    said you know if we saw those kind of

    issues for girls it will actually appeal

    to more of everybody right but I think

    I've weighed too heavily on that side

    and I need to be like oh yeah true but

    what are specific things that are gonna

    make other underrepresented groups feel

    like they belong yeah and make a

    question just to clarify it is not like

    any kind of critique of anything that

    you said I respect and admire what

    you're saying so I just want to be clear

    for anyone listening unto you as well

    for sure I think we all have areas that

    we can grow in yeah and for me like I'm

    a very passable male I imagine when

    people look at me they just assume that

    I identify as male and then when they

    see that I shave my legs

    oh okay maybe it doesn't matter from his

    male so I'm wondering are there any

    other questions about equity that you

    wish I would ask her that you'd like to

    discuss so you had pointed out a podcast

    that you did with Sara Jed yeah and the

    discourse in Chennai said listen to it

    thank you and I thought it was very

    interesting I trying to remember exactly

    what was said there but I feel like I

    remember you know she was not as happy

    with this girls want to change the world

    like that's our only reason to get in

    one of the only ways we could appeal to

    girls right as they don't see that and

    it made me wonder like that's just the

    way we've been groomed or you know is

    that really our entrance to interest or

    is it something that society has decided

    as our intrinsic interest I thought that

    was really interesting yeah Sarah had a

    lot of really interesting points in that

    conversation and if people haven't

    listened to that episode and want to

    hear more about discussions from on

    gender that's a good episode to listen

    to not speaking for Sarah but it sounded

    like the problem was with essentializing

    a gender type of saying well boys want

    this and girls want this and people who

    identify outside of the binary want this

    and there's like no gray area with that

    so if we approach it that way and make

    those kind of assumptions then we

    unintentionally marginalize people who

    would otherwise be engaged if we had

    left things

    more open right right well it made me

    think about is that we do need to open

    it up for so many more

    and so stereotyping the other way isn't

    working you know isn't gonna work either

    so yeah it's a conundrum of how how to

    talk about this in a way that doesn't

    marginalize different groups but really

    makes it feel open and welcoming to all

    oh I thought was a good conversation but

    also had me thinking ya know if I

    remember I think I shared how some

    people ask me okay well what's a great

    project to work with X identity or Y

    identity and my response is usually well

    I mean it depends it's like there's no

    way of me being able to guarantee

    especially when it comes to gender like

    a boy is gonna love this project a girl

    is gonna love this project and a

    non-binary person might love this

    project like it just it doesn't work

    that way and so I think I talked about

    how the some of the projects that were

    stereotypically associated with boys a

    lot of the women or the girls in my

    class like absolutely love those

    projects and requested them so just kind

    of like flipping that yep I'm curious

    about working in education and then

    having worked in the tech field at IBM

    how do you take care of yourself in

    terms of trying to stave off burnout in

    high demand jobs that honestly require

    much more than just 40 hours a week I'm

    not the best at it to be honest I

    definitely when I was IBM I was a

    workaholic that was I think one of the

    things that I came to realize was not a

    value of mine but it took me a long time

    to realize that it wasn't just all about

    the job because I also took my value

    from just the job and nothing else in my

    life so I think that's one way is if

    you're just getting all your value from

    what you're doing in your job then

    you're probably not having a very good

    balance in your life

    the other thing I do now I'm involved in

    just so many different things I'm you

    know so passionate especially about

    computer science and equity that that

    gets me sucked into a lot of different

    activities which I enjoy but it can be

    overwhelming so I always come back to

    you know what are the top three things

    that I want to be involved in and if it

    I feel like I'm juggling too much or

    getting overwhelmed then I have to go

    back and say I gotta cut something out I

    gotta know refocus yeah I think it's 10

    he says something like if it's not a

    hell yes and it's a hell now and yeah

    like that's how he identifies what kind

    of things he's gonna work on and for

    somebody like myself it can be very

    difficult to say no to things because

    there are so many opportunities that I

    want to help with but because there's so

    many opportunities I can't help with all

    of them and I'm sure we'll likely

    experience the same thing going into the

    doctoral program is there's like always

    more things you can add to your CV and

    at some point you just have to start

    saying no to certain things so you can

    focus on others yeah I guess for me

    like I'm not really focused on CV stuff

    now that's good I am now gonna put in my

    life where I'm doing things because I

    want to enjoy it and I want to make a

    difference that I don't really care if

    it's gonna give me that next big

    promotion or give me that next big job

    so it's really I'm glad to be at this

    part of my life where I don't have to

    worry about that kind of stuff I have to

    admit though that's sort of how I've

    lived my life anyway so I think having

    that mentality and not worrying so much

    about what is gonna get you the next

    thing but doing the thing that you need

    to do can be helpful yeah and sometimes

    easier said than done yeah for sure yeah

    no I totally agree with you on that

    speaking of like the doctor'll is this

    makes me think of a question that I like

    to ask that is what do you wish there's

    more research on that can inform your

    own practices well I think k12

    especially k-8 computer science

    integration or just k-8 computer science

    I feel like a lot of research and this

    is actually another reason I want to do

    the program is I have had no time to

    sort of delve into all the research that

    is happening so you know my research

    view is again through Twitter but I

    don't find that there's too much

    happening in the k-8 space so I feel

    like that's a space that needs focus and

    then I really am sold on innovation now

    so I'd like to see studies that focus on

    if it's just me where is that really

    successful in helping students both

    students and teachers feel more good

    things towards computer science yeah and

    the research side of things that's one

    of the reasons why I alternate between

    interviews and then kind of unpacking

    scholarships just trying to help people

    learn more about what research is out

    there in the k-8 space yeah and I like

    I'm so appreciative and I one of the

    questions I want to ask you is like why

    why you started and why you're so thank

    you and to thank you so much for just

    sharing everything that you're sharing

    all the resources you're sharing there

    are a lot of reasons why I started the

    podcast but one of them was I was

    honestly kind of unsatisfied with the

    lack of discussion on computer science

    education research and just research

    that could be applicable to computer

    science so I'd go to conferences and

    people would be sharing their

    experiences but they didn't really have

    any research that they would grounded in

    or any frameworks that they're kind of

    like building off of and so we kind of

    had this surface level discussion that

    lacked connection to other practices and

    pedagogy and so by alternating between

    people who I think would be awesome

    guests who kind of share their

    experiences with episodes that kind of

    unpacks well whether it's a scholarship

    I'm just kind of hoping to elevate the

    discourse in the field to make it so

    that people are more aware of not only

    best practices but best practices that

    are kind of founded in some kind of

    research base nice also to kind of build

    off of what you're saying previously one

    of the things that really guides most of

    the decisions that I've made with my

    career and in life is just kind of how

    can I have the biggest impact in

    hopefully a positive way in the world

    and I think that starting this podcast

    and focusing on these interviews and

    scholarship can kind of have an impact

    on the field oh yeah for sure especially

    in ways that are outside of what I was

    kind of like traditionally taught to do

    with like the doctoral program and it's

    just like okay you need to go and

    present it at conferences you need to

    publish and those publications are just

    written things that are often put into

    journals that are siloed behind like

    paywalls

    oh I know I hate that and so I feel like

    even though I can spend months if not

    years working on one publication that

    might be read by and cited by like a

    small handful of people I think a

    podcast is much more accessible to

    anybody especially if it's free so why

    not put my efforts into something like

    that yeah I guess I didn't really

    understand the sort of gulf between

    research and practitioners until I

    started becoming involved with NSF yes

    for all RPP and you know like that was a

    whole new idea that you could get

    researchers and practitioners together

    to create a grant and I just thought

    that's the way it should be so it's

    gonna be very eye-opening I'm sure going

    through this program yeah are peepees

    those it's it's fascinating that we like

    have to kind of almost force that with

    funding to get those kind of

    collaborations between scholars and

    practitioners and that there is that

    divide right but then there's also that

    divide between scholars and

    practitioners with the people who make

    policies that impact education and

    whatnot so I think that's another area

    where there's just this huge gap that

    needs to be filled in terms of

    discussions maybe I should start

    interviewing some politicians yep

    are there any other questions that I

    have not asked that you want to chat

    about all right well since we were

    talking about your podcast I had been

    listening to your podcast another

    podcast I really like is modern figures

    and I like other podcasts that are also

    produced by you know fancy corporations

    but it just got me thinking that yeah

    it's a great way to share out with

    people who might not necessarily have

    access to the thoughts so the resources

    or whatever and the current librarian at

    st. Anne's and I do a lot of integration

    projects in the library and so we've got

    a lot of great resources that we've been

    creating that we want to share and it's

    called Once Upon a tech the literacy

    adventures of misfit and misfit I miss a

    bit at you know taking this idea of

    technology and literacy and really

    showing that's big convergence there

    there's been crossover there and how we

    can get especially more educators and

    parents comfortable with the integration

    of those two so we got one episode down

    in February that's with dr. Jennifer Chu

    at the UVA curry school and in March

    we're going to do an episode that's

    actually behind the scenes of girls geek

    day which I just started working on the

    audio for that as the founder of tech

    girls and this is one of the programs we

    run it

    reminds me why what we're doing is

    impactful but unfortunately why we still

    have to do it like there's some stories

    and they're just gonna be like what this

    is still happening at 2020 ah and where

    might people go to connect with you and

    the organizations that you work with

    sure so I'm a lot of different places

    but on Twitter I'm at misfit bytes me

    Mis sbit B YT yes and my website is miss

    - bit calm so a lot of other stuff is

    there and then the tech girl site is

    tech - girls that org and with that that

    concludes this week's episode of the cs

    k8 podcast I hope you enjoyed listening

    to it and I hope you consider going to

    the show notes to find access to many of

    the resources that Kim and I discussed

    for example there are a lot of resources

    that are relevant to exploring gender

    issues and computer science and

    technology if you enjoyed this episode

    please consider sharing with a friend or

    even providing a review on the platform

    you're listening to this on stay tuned

    next week for another unpacking

    scholarship episode where I would

    discuss the latest CS education and

    research and talk about the potential

    implications in classroom settings I

    hope you all have a wonderful week and I

    will talk to you later

Guest Bio

Kim Wilkens is the founder of Tech-Girls and the K-8 Computer Science Program Coordinator at St. Anne's-Belfield School. Kim believes that every student needs to experience CS so they can take control over how technology impacts their lives, their culture and their future. She is on a mission to bring that vision to reality in her community and beyond. You can find her on twitter at missbitbytesteentechgirls and onceupontech and on the web at miss-bit.com and tech-girls.org


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