Promoting Equity and Activism in Computer Science Education with Kim Wilkens
In this interview with Kim Wilkens, we discuss embracing failure, encouraging activism and community impact through CS and technology, supporting marginalized gender identities in CS, and much more.
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Welcome back to another episode of the
CSK8 podcast my name is Jared O'Leary in
this week's episode I'm interviewing Kim
Wilkins Kim and I were introduced to
each other on Twitter as have been
several of the other guests that you've
heard on the show so if you're
interested in being on the show hit me
up on Twitter or send me an email by
contacting me on my website which is
Jared O'Leary comm now in this interview
with Kim we discuss embracing failure
both as students and teachers we also
talked about Kim's approach to
encouraging activism and community
impact through computer science and
technology as well as a discussion on
supporting marginalized gender
identities in computer science this
podcast pairs nicely with the interview
with Sarah Judd which you can find a
direct link to in the show notes
speaking of you should be able to access
the show notes by clicking the link in
the description of the app that you're
listening to this on otherwise just
visit jared O'Leary comm and with that
being said we will now begin with Kim
introducing herself so my name is Kim
Wilkins and I am in Charlottesville
Virginia I teach computer science
kindergarten through eighth grade at
Saint Anne's Belfield school and it
started basically the computer science
program there but before that I started
an organization called tech girls and
great need to have more girls coming to
the computer science and technology
fields okay tell me the story of how you
got into CS education sure it was not a
direct path I actually graduated
computer science in 1987 it was awhile
ago and I went to work at IBM so I was
all in doing things in corporate America
I was very ambitious and went up the
corporate ladder and then when we moved
to shouts ville it also had my son by
then and there was no IBM here and there
were other things that happened that
really made me realize that maybe
corporate America dreams were not my
dreams and so I started doing consulting
work so when I was at IBM one of the
things I learned was I was a
publications manager and publications
were the foundation of HTML tags and so
you know I knew how to do websites very
early on because I had learned that
skills so that's kind of the things I
was doing I was creating websites for
people and doing testing and things like
that and so as you know very much
working in the gig
me part-time basis and one gig came up
my best friend was working at a school
and they needed a computer lab set up
and I also set up computer labs so I'm
like sure I'll do that and then the
principal said hey would you like to
teach technology because it turns out
you know there weren't a lot of
technology teachers did I was in between
gigs and it was going to be part-time
still and I thought well sure I'll try
it out and so that's when I started
teaching teaching technology I didn't
know that teaching computer science was
like not usually part of that it was
usually keyboarding and learning about
office apps and stuff like that but I
talk coding because you know that's what
I do and I really fell in love with that
I especially loved working with the
middle school students which a lot of
people find interesting and I did that
that's cool for about a year and a half
and then they had a change of principles
and they decided you know they wanted
somebody who had the education
background and had a certificate and all
that and I didn't want to go through
that at that point so then I went
actually to where my son was going to
school and started volunteering there
doing technology and wound up Ashley
teaching computer science there for a
bit and yeah that's that's how it
happened I sort of stumbled into it so
one of the things that I'm fascinated
about is just how people learn and some
of the processes involved with that so
I'm wondering if you were to just
suddenly lose your memory and had to
relearn like how to teach her just
computer science in general where would
you start and how would you begin to
develop that mastery and write well I
basically had to do that you know
because I was not in education when I
started and the first thing I did was I
looked for resources online connecting
with educators I actually went to a
conference I was actually the Grace
Hopper celebration of women in computing
conference in 2010 and they had a k-12
track at the time and so I was really
interested because I wanted to go find
out
you know what other people were doing in
technology education because it was and
still is a very brand-new field and
there were not any curriculums out there
any scope and sequence stuff like that
so I was kind of making things up and
trying to find others who were doing it
so you know that's one way that I
connected with other educators that was
also the conference where I learned that
women studying computer science have
taken such a dive so when I was studying
it was 37 percent were female and in
I think maybe it's gone up a little but
it's really still quite bad so that's
also when I decided you know in addition
to teaching technology I also need to do
something extra because I need to help
solve this problem of why there not more
girls and women studying computer
science so looking for communities I
also got active on Twitter then and it's
been such a powerful tool for me to
connect with other educators to find out
what they're doing to get links to
resources to share ideas grach was also
one of the first tools I started using
and that community is very strong so I
think you know finding a community that
you can interact with and get feedback
from and things like that yeah I have a
love/hate with social media and
communities and whatnot because like on
one hand like I'm able to meet and learn
from awesome people like we got
connected through Twitter but on the
other hand I find myself spending too
much time on it if I dive into it so I
just try and dive in like once a day do
a few minutes okay I'm done
that's my problem too but I think the
benefits outweigh the costs so far right
so I'm wondering aside from like finding
other communities and whatnot what were
some of the things that you wish you
knew when you first started teaching CS
or coding that you could recommend for
new CSS Gators one of the things is just
being willing to try things out because
this is such a new field and there
aren't actually a lot of resources even
still you kind of have to just be
willing to experiment and try things and
be willing to fail and that's a pretty
big ask for educators these days I'm
comfortable with that feeling anyway but
just knowing that that's the way it's
gonna go whenever you bring in computer
science in the classroom the other thing
that I learned really is that I can
learn so much from the students I can't
tell you the number of tools the number
of tricks or the number of ideas that
have gotten from students that I have
now incorporated into teaching so I
think just being willing to be open to
what students bring to the table is
super important
yeah even just the things that they want
to create that you hadn't thought of at
first like there have been many
different game types or stories or
things that the kids wanted to create in
the various languages that I worked with
or they're like how do I do this thing I
mean like I haven't thought about that
yet let's let's work on it
right exactly it's also scary because
you know you don't know the answer
you know my big skill is that I know how
to look up answers and that's what I try
to model like yeah I don't know you I
don't know the answer to your question
but here's how I would go and try to
find the answer yeah could you unpack
that a little more like how do you model
that thought processes that is
definitely something that I tried to do
in the classroom as well actually like
just doing it with them right if they're
really stuck on something I sit with my
computer next to them okay what are you
trust a con okay this is what I would do
and I do the search and I you know go
look with them all so I try to every
lesson I do that I know those things
might come up I try to provide a list of
resources where the students can go
themselves and try to look up answers
it's hard to curate things if you just
like doing a search for it so I really
like the idea of just okay let me
compile some resources and make it
easier for kids to find them in one
space I mostly go into classrooms so I'm
not doing pulled out classes which I
love and I can tell you the reasons
behind that I mean going into classrooms
where I'm seeing a wide variety of
ranges of experience having done coding
before or computer science activities
before and so I need to take all that
into consideration so the other thing I
do is I always have sort of the baseline
requirements that I'd like them to get
and I always have challenged activities
for those kids who want to take it a
step further and I'm challenged
themselves so you know the baseline
activities come with a lot of
scaffolding from me to help students get
through it but those challenge
activities are more independent
activities that the kids have to show
that they are able to do some research
and problem-solving on their own yes
sometimes like when I create these
open-ended suggestions for generating
ideas kids will create things that are
oftentimes hilarious or just like
absolutely fascinating and like blow my
mind right yeah yeah you mentioned your
preference for pullout classrooms could
you explain that a little more
so not pullout so my preference is
integrated classroom so one of the
reasons I took this job is because in
the past I'd always been a separate
class right and so either our students
had the self-select into it or they had
timeout in the schedule to do it and
either of those options even if I see
all the students but it's a separate
time I'm not connected to the other
subject areas and the things that
they're already learning and I feel like
doing technologies for technology's sake
is really not very useful and it's not
relevant to what their experience is so
that's one reason I like to be
integrated but the other reason is this
idea of having to self-select
into computer science and engineering
classes I feel like because of the
stereotypes and the biases and a lot of
things that have built up this problem
that we have with diversity in computer
science
means that a lot of kids won't self
select in because they feel like you
know they're going to be the only they
don't have the experience it's not their
field and so by going into the classroom
and being integrated with the subject
area all the students get to experience
that we sort of D stigmatize what
computer science really means and I feel
like that is one of the ways that we can
solve this diversity issue in this field
yeah I definitely enjoyed the k-8
classes that I worked with because it
was mandatory it was in its own space so
I didn't go into a classroom that came
to my classroom but every kid received
computer science in the school it was
nice yeah I think the other nice thing
about going into a classroom is then
you're also exposing the teachers in the
classroom to computer science and so
then they are able to kind of see what
it means see what it looks like and
starts integrating it on their own so at
the school I'm at this is my sixth year
there and I guess I started doing
integration projects in the second year
the first year is kind of getting a lay
of the land and experimenting with some
things but every year I've been able to
expand the things I can do because
educators have stepped up to start doing
integration projects on their own which
is also pretty exciting that's great
yeah one of the things that I've
recommend in previous interviews is each
year just adding a little more or trying
something different or iterating on
things and not trying to do like a
billion things at once because it can
get overwhelming exactly yeah the fact
that you are in another teachers
classroom and they are able to see
things sounds wonderful like there were
several teachers that I had no idea what
they actually looked like because they
just like drop their kid
off outside my door and I wouldn't see
them until like several months into the
school year and it just happened to be
like oh you're that elusive person that
I've never met right right I'm curious
what comes to mind when you think of
what a engaging learning experience or
environment is number one it needs to be
fun like I don't want to go to school
and not have fun when I'm with kids so I
also want the kids to have fun I think
it needs to be relevant so it needs to
be something that is you know best if
it's something relevant to the students
themselves but at least relevant to what
they're learning in their day and then
finally it has to have some amount of
choice so that the students can take
ownership their projects and what does
that continuum of choice look like in
your ideal environment because choice
could be like choose between a and B or
it could be something like create
something that's interesting to you
right so I try to set up projects where
I have the guardrails I guess you could
say like these are the things you have
to have with the project but then very
open to the choices that students make
within it so I try to stay away from the
ABC choices of more ABC you have to have
and then the rest is up to you and those
have to have surveyed like three
standards or concepts or practices yeah
it's more concepts and practices because
I'm at a private school you know I do
have a scope and sequence and I do look
at all the standards that are out there
and Virginia is actually one of the
first states that has a set of computer
science standards so I do look at them
and infuse them but I'm more about the
practice and the are they understanding
the concepts I'm curious in terms of an
engaging experience or environment how
does that understanding kind of inform
advice you might give when integrating
CS into another subject area
okay so I've called it anatomy of a CS
integration project I have it in things
to strive for in things to avoid so the
problem of the project should be
authentic and relevant
I love incorporating design thinking
principles into projects and that the
problem drives a project not the SIA
standards what I try to do is create non
CS teacher scaffolding for resources
that I share either online or ones where
I'm working with my
teachers to help them integrate CS
lesson so it's not just scaffolding for
our students but it's also for educators
this isn't their natural habitat
so video tutorials are a thing I often I
tried a different you like I said from
sort of baseline requirements to giving
kids challenges I like to recognize
students as mentors in fact this is a
great tool that non CS educators can use
as well as once they're gonna have a kid
in the class who gets it and is able to
help explain it to their peers so really
I gotta find those kids and helping them
thrive in that environment I like a
ratio of very little me explaining
things and more kids doing things and
then I do a lot of unplugged activities
so also setting those boundaries of when
is it okay to be on the computer and
doing things and when do I need your
attention and so just you know simple is
when I'm having to give a lesson or I'm
having a student do it you know we close
our computers and then we can open them
up for the work that we need to do and
then a big thing for me is also modeling
and celebrating mistakes especially in
computer science and to me it was Joe I
was just natural like I knew you know
the first time I did it was not gonna
work like that's just the way it is but
students and educators find that
troubling often and so just getting over
that mindset of it's gonna fail it's
gonna be fine you know okay that's just
how things are is a really big emphasis
that I place on when I'm going into
classrooms with computer science yeah
allow for student choice and creativity
within clearly documented design
constraints and then I you know never
use any sort of test the way I figure
out how students have learned is through
their work in a recent interview with
Justin Kennedy we talked about failure
and I explained that a former district
that I worked in the administrators did
not allow us to fail they said that it
was not an option for us as educators
because we just didn't have enough time
so I'm wondering how you would respond
to an administrator who kind of has a
similar viewpoint when it comes to
failure in a CSS or coding class that
would baffle me because we all fail
right and you learned like failures how
we learn so I would say you know there
are professional programmers
King six-figure salaries who fail
everyday at their job because they have
to do that in order to get to their
solution they're problem-solving they're
getting through these you know difficult
situations inventing new things but that
all requires experimentation and
learning from what went wrong yeah and
these were music education
administrators so I don't know if it
just has to do with a difference in the
field in that in music education you are
constantly preparing for a performance
and that performance is ideally supposed
to be a perfected work that you are
presenting to people but in computer
science it's more about the process even
though there's a ton of practice that
goes into music education that's not
what you're showing to the audience or
to other people there is similar in that
you know software development you are
going toward setting something out to
the public and so it goes through all
these processes to get it ready for
public consumption you're going through
sets of failure which I assume you are
when you're preparing to present your
music music as well right yeah so I
think the processes are just very
similar but yeah what part are you
focusing on right and you know even the
end result in software engineering even
something you put out in the public
somebody's gonna find it back so when I
was at IBM one of my jobs was a test
engineer and I could break anybody's
code and I still feel like him I mean
there's no perfect piece of software out
there right so one of the things I had
read is that you're really into getting
kids into activism I'm wondering how can
kids become activists through computer
science and tech and engagement sure so
one of the things that we started with
something called the spark hackathon and
it's a high school hackathon for kids
not just at our school but throughout
the region and we started it because we
knew that the kids that we had were
really excited about computer science
but they weren't getting a chance to
really practice it in the real world and
we also knew that there were companies
in our region who were really interested
well they would love to see more
computer science graduates and they
wanted to really make a connection with
what was happening in education and so
we brought these two together so the
hackathon is Saturday and Sunday
and on Saturday we call that allure
Nathon so there's workshop times in the
morning and work sometimes in the
afternoon where kids can sign up to
learn something maybe even they've never
learned before and most of the workshops
are put on by people in the community
who are passionate about you know
certain things in technology and then in
the late afternoon we have four
companies sponsor problems and so they
come up with real-world problem
statements that's something that they're
working on and they like help with or
just something that they know is needed
in the Charlottesville community and
then the students choose to work on one
of those problems and they sell select
into teams and things like that and the
rest of the hackathon they're working on
solving this problem we've often heard
from students it's one of the first
times that they've been able to take
what they learned and apply it in the
real world and some of them go on and
take their project to next levels
there's an incubator in town that has
had some hackathon participants you know
some of them have gotten internship
opportunities out of it because they
have made these connections with the
tech companies so that's one of the ways
that we feel like gives them ownership
and agency in what they are actually
able to do with computer science yeah
and I have really mixed emotions
listening to that response like on one
hand like I think it's wonderful that
kids found even seeing the ability to
kind of apply their understandings and
something that's interesting to them
that could impact the world outside of
school but on the other hand the fact
that this is like the first time that
they're finding that it's just like it's
a problematic like what is the purpose
of Education if it's only going to apply
within school boundaries and not apply
outside of it totally agree yeah it is
it is very frustrating them that's where
we are with education and what kind of
impact do you hope kids have through
their activism well what we have found
especially with the kids that are in our
program so we're a pre k12 school so I
do k-8 but I have a couple colleagues
who are in the nine through twelve and
so kids have been through a program now
and they are coming back to see us
Institute we run that I can tell you
about CSM suit in a bit but that's a
conference that we run for local k-12
educators to help them get more
comfortable with computer science and
the last one we had last summer base
we had students come in and run the
morning portion of it so the educators
could see like this is the impact it has
when students feel empowered to take
computer science on and use it in their
lives you know I've seen it personally
they're so passionate about that they're
willing to share it with other educators
we also run a couple of CS summer
programs for middle and high school
students and we have had students
volunteer with that this last hackathon
they actually took ownership of the
hackathon more than they ever had before
I think we had seven student organizers
and so they actually wound up running a
lot of the workshops because they have
that level of skill now so it's things
like that when you see the students
taking it beyond just doing it in the
classroom but wanting to share it with
others yeah that's great and you
mentioned the CS Institute what is that
so that is a 2-day event during the
summer we did it the first year in 2017
CNET bells field school has a PD that
they do in the summer and we were
actually the focus of that professional
development so I mean that's an amazing
thing to have your schools say yeah
computer science is so important that
all of you needs to get on board and do
something with it so that was amazing we
didn't do in 2018 but in 2019 University
of Virginia is here so we got the curry
School of Education and this computer
science department to collaborate with
us and help us put on the CS Institute
this past year so we had 55 educators
from around the community come we really
wanted to highlight students work and
you know what it means to students to
have computer science education access
so the students Ram part of it and we
secretly run it like the hackathon we
just don't call it that because we know
that educators would not sign up to come
to a cath lab that basically the first
day is like the hackathon with the
workshops and then in the afternoon the
problem statement is how are you going
to integrate at least one computer
science lesson the next year and then
the next day is all about helping
educators come up with a plan we want
them to actually try something out the
next year you know a lot of conferences
you go to you get so much information
but you never get to process it and then
have a plan with it and so that whole
second day is we have all these mentors
here who have done this before we have
them split up two groups that are
affinity groups where they can start
brainstorming lessons and
come out at the other end with something
they can try out and this year also the
UVA curry school is interested in
following a cohort of educator so we
also have a cohort of k-8 educators who
are meaning up I guess quarterly now to
kind of give them that extra support
that they might need to do see us
integration at their school so how are
you or the kids that you work with kind
of striving for impact beyond your
community for me I started the tech
girls to kind of do stuff in the
community I was gonna do that and you
know share it broadly but then I got
this full-time job which I left and was
has been very helpful to me but I've
also learned a lot about creating
computer science lessons about helping
other educators who don't have computer
science backgrounds get on board and so
my dream is now to kind of take the work
that I've been doing in that space and
the tech grows work which is all about
finding ways to include more people in
computer science bring those together
and share it out so I'm actually going
to be starting my EDD at the curry
school that sort of focus of taking all
these lessons and sharing them out so
I've already started doing a little bit
of that there's something called go open
VA which started to share out lessons
for educators to be able to remix them
and things like that and the focus this
first year is really been on computer
science lessons because of this new set
of standards have come out in Virginia
so that's one of the first ways trying
to go out share but I also you know go
to conferences and speak and share out
everything I do on websites and Twitter
so I've got a website called miss - bit
comm which is my personal website and
then tech girls is tech - girls org
where a lot of resources exist and so he
kind of briefly hinted at this I had a
couple of points but what questions or
concerns do you have about equity and CS
and Technology education
so obviously the biggest one is the lack
of diversity in gender and people of
color so I think you know the stats for
those are pretty clear and how non
equitable it is and so some of the
founding principles that Tech Rose was
built on was actually from dr. Joanne
Cahoon and she tweeted out many years
ago that I just latched on to and became
sort of founding principles of
marking interest so I think you'll find
in a lot of studies that the interest is
actually there at young ages and then
stereotypes and bias and other things
crop up in middle school and beyond so
one of the programs we have is
elementary school program called girls
geek day to really kind of spark or keep
that interest going and doing in a way
where we're helping them build their
confidence nurturing this community so
they can see themselves because they see
all these other girls interested in it
and then helping them develop a tech
identity they kind of can take them
through maybe the harder more
challenging times so I think those are
the things that a lot of programs you
know could focus on so they could have a
more inclusive community and how do you
develop an identity as somebody who's
interested in tech or computer science
so I think you know just getting
hands-on with things trying coding
things out so the girls geek day is once
a month and the girls get to select from
eight or nine different options I get to
select three of them for 45 minutes so
it's not a lot of time they don't need a
lot of time but it's hey I tried scratch
out in I created this thing I did bits
box and I you know coded in JavaScript
with and made this thing I got hands-on
with some robotics and I saw that these
high school girls are on robotics team
so you know to me it doesn't have to be
a huge amount of effort but it's just
helping them see that yes they can
create things and yes there are role
models out there and yes you belong you
know I think finding that community of
other people that you identify with is
very important for assisting with that
process and it's also nice that you
you're doing this I believe you said
once a month as opposed to just like
once a quarter or semester or one time
in the year like alright we're gonna do
our once a year celebration of people
who you identify with and you won't see
them again for a year right yeah now to
me it was important that we did it more
often and we're in our eighth year
amazingly enough and the cool thing is
we've been around so long now that we
have people who've got you know girls
who have gone through the program now
who are now coming back and offering
workshops that's great they're
volunteering with tech girls we do have
a middle school program which has been a
little more challenging to get right
I'll say I did try the girls who code
Club model which I like but it's once a
week and that was really hard for both
me and the girls to commit to but that
didn't quite work out but I know that
you know there have definitely been
successful grow to code clubs I don't
want to discourage anybody but that just
didn't work out with our model the thing
that I've stumbled upon that seems to be
working except when I can't get my act
together is we're calling yes we tech
would like to have it monthly but it's
basically going into a business or an
organization that does some tech related
things and having them host the girls so
they get kind of behind the scenes of
what really is happening in this
organization and then have female role
models from that organization either do
a roundtable or some sort of hands-on
activity with the girls I think a lot of
not just girls but a lot of people just
do not understand what tech companies do
and it's really hard to because there's
so many different things you can do the
other thing I'm also one of the founding
board members have charlottesville women
in tech and we even get women who even
though they work in tact if they're not
coding or doing something what they
consider a really you know hardcore
attack they don't consider themselves
part of technology and so just getting
over that I don't know stereotype or
whatever it is I think we are really all
in technology you know all companies or
technology companies in some form or
fashion
and so just breaking down whatever
barrier it is for women and girls to
think they're not intact you know it
sounds like you have a lot of local and
community resources and people that you
can connect with and draw upon to kind
of assist with this I'm curious
what you might recommend for educators
who are like yeah this sounds awesome
I'd love to do this but I'm in a rural
setting and there's not a lot of tech
companies around where we live or
there's not a lot of women and tech
around where we live how can I find
resources or people to connect with that
could help the kids that I work with
yeah I think you you'd be surprised
you know Cheryl it's not huge by any
standard of measure but I think you just
got to start you know for me it was just
having this passion that I needed to do
something to address up this problem
whether it was you know just a little
thing and just you'll find other people
who would like to help but they don't
know how to start something as well so I
think you know start small maybe start
with your own education community see
who else might be interested again for
me Twitter was super helpful in finding
organizations there's also other local
organizations in my town that I reached
out to that help nonprofits that work
with the business community that work
with the tech community the University
of Virginia's here there's also a
Piedmont Community College so any
resources like that from higher
education would be great but I think
you'll find that there are resources
there if you start digging a little
mm-hmm
like nCWIT and whatnot yeah exactly
which I'll put a link to in the show
notes if people are unfamiliar with it
yeah in fact when I started techgirls
I connected with Kimberly Bryant at
black girls code I connected with the
founder of girl develop it I reached out
to all these national organizations
working with women in tech and girls in
tech and they're all very supportive and
really want to help out so yeah I think
even if it's starting at that national
scale you'll get help because there are
a lot of people that want to see this
addressed I'm curious as somebody who
identifies as non-binary I find it
interesting that the discourse on gender
doesn't often include people who
identify outside a male or female and
I'm wondering if you know of any
resources that might assist with
educators who want to learn more about
that that is a good question that I do
not I mean no I don't that is an area
that I also need to focus on because
I've been so focused on you know this
gender issue in the binary but yeah I
don't unfortunately have resources for
that yeah and I don't really know if any
as well I mean honestly it's just it's
not part of a conversation which is like
one of the reasons why I'm just like
open like yeah hey I'm a non-binary or
non-conforming and it's not something
I've talked about so I'm gonna kind of
talk about it yeah and I think it starts
there right right that's how it's gonna
start yeah I know nCWIT has some
resources on it and I'll include some
links to that but there's not enough in
my opinion and I think getting more
women and girls into computing and
technology is wonderful but I also think
there's like other parts or other people
identify with different gender types
that aren't really being discussed I
guess for a while what I was thinking at
least was a lot of the reasons that
girls haven't gone into tech are a lot
of the reasons
people haven't gone into tech right
because it had the stereotypes about
being in your basement alone you know
not working with others not really
making a difference things like that and
there was a study I can't quote it for
you now but I remember reading it that
said you know if we saw those kind of
issues for girls it will actually appeal
to more of everybody right but I think
I've weighed too heavily on that side
and I need to be like oh yeah true but
what are specific things that are gonna
make other underrepresented groups feel
like they belong yeah and make a
question just to clarify it is not like
any kind of critique of anything that
you said I respect and admire what
you're saying so I just want to be clear
for anyone listening unto you as well
for sure I think we all have areas that
we can grow in yeah and for me like I'm
a very passable male I imagine when
people look at me they just assume that
I identify as male and then when they
see that I shave my legs
oh okay maybe it doesn't matter from his
male so I'm wondering are there any
other questions about equity that you
wish I would ask her that you'd like to
discuss so you had pointed out a podcast
that you did with Sara Jed yeah and the
discourse in Chennai said listen to it
thank you and I thought it was very
interesting I trying to remember exactly
what was said there but I feel like I
remember you know she was not as happy
with this girls want to change the world
like that's our only reason to get in
one of the only ways we could appeal to
girls right as they don't see that and
it made me wonder like that's just the
way we've been groomed or you know is
that really our entrance to interest or
is it something that society has decided
as our intrinsic interest I thought that
was really interesting yeah Sarah had a
lot of really interesting points in that
conversation and if people haven't
listened to that episode and want to
hear more about discussions from on
gender that's a good episode to listen
to not speaking for Sarah but it sounded
like the problem was with essentializing
a gender type of saying well boys want
this and girls want this and people who
identify outside of the binary want this
and there's like no gray area with that
so if we approach it that way and make
those kind of assumptions then we
unintentionally marginalize people who
would otherwise be engaged if we had
left things
more open right right well it made me
think about is that we do need to open
it up for so many more
and so stereotyping the other way isn't
working you know isn't gonna work either
so yeah it's a conundrum of how how to
talk about this in a way that doesn't
marginalize different groups but really
makes it feel open and welcoming to all
oh I thought was a good conversation but
also had me thinking ya know if I
remember I think I shared how some
people ask me okay well what's a great
project to work with X identity or Y
identity and my response is usually well
I mean it depends it's like there's no
way of me being able to guarantee
especially when it comes to gender like
a boy is gonna love this project a girl
is gonna love this project and a
non-binary person might love this
project like it just it doesn't work
that way and so I think I talked about
how the some of the projects that were
stereotypically associated with boys a
lot of the women or the girls in my
class like absolutely love those
projects and requested them so just kind
of like flipping that yep I'm curious
about working in education and then
having worked in the tech field at IBM
how do you take care of yourself in
terms of trying to stave off burnout in
high demand jobs that honestly require
much more than just 40 hours a week I'm
not the best at it to be honest I
definitely when I was IBM I was a
workaholic that was I think one of the
things that I came to realize was not a
value of mine but it took me a long time
to realize that it wasn't just all about
the job because I also took my value
from just the job and nothing else in my
life so I think that's one way is if
you're just getting all your value from
what you're doing in your job then
you're probably not having a very good
balance in your life
the other thing I do now I'm involved in
just so many different things I'm you
know so passionate especially about
computer science and equity that that
gets me sucked into a lot of different
activities which I enjoy but it can be
overwhelming so I always come back to
you know what are the top three things
that I want to be involved in and if it
I feel like I'm juggling too much or
getting overwhelmed then I have to go
back and say I gotta cut something out I
gotta know refocus yeah I think it's 10
he says something like if it's not a
hell yes and it's a hell now and yeah
like that's how he identifies what kind
of things he's gonna work on and for
somebody like myself it can be very
difficult to say no to things because
there are so many opportunities that I
want to help with but because there's so
many opportunities I can't help with all
of them and I'm sure we'll likely
experience the same thing going into the
doctoral program is there's like always
more things you can add to your CV and
at some point you just have to start
saying no to certain things so you can
focus on others yeah I guess for me
like I'm not really focused on CV stuff
now that's good I am now gonna put in my
life where I'm doing things because I
want to enjoy it and I want to make a
difference that I don't really care if
it's gonna give me that next big
promotion or give me that next big job
so it's really I'm glad to be at this
part of my life where I don't have to
worry about that kind of stuff I have to
admit though that's sort of how I've
lived my life anyway so I think having
that mentality and not worrying so much
about what is gonna get you the next
thing but doing the thing that you need
to do can be helpful yeah and sometimes
easier said than done yeah for sure yeah
no I totally agree with you on that
speaking of like the doctor'll is this
makes me think of a question that I like
to ask that is what do you wish there's
more research on that can inform your
own practices well I think k12
especially k-8 computer science
integration or just k-8 computer science
I feel like a lot of research and this
is actually another reason I want to do
the program is I have had no time to
sort of delve into all the research that
is happening so you know my research
view is again through Twitter but I
don't find that there's too much
happening in the k-8 space so I feel
like that's a space that needs focus and
then I really am sold on innovation now
so I'd like to see studies that focus on
if it's just me where is that really
successful in helping students both
students and teachers feel more good
things towards computer science yeah and
the research side of things that's one
of the reasons why I alternate between
interviews and then kind of unpacking
scholarships just trying to help people
learn more about what research is out
there in the k-8 space yeah and I like
I'm so appreciative and I one of the
questions I want to ask you is like why
why you started and why you're so thank
you and to thank you so much for just
sharing everything that you're sharing
all the resources you're sharing there
are a lot of reasons why I started the
podcast but one of them was I was
honestly kind of unsatisfied with the
lack of discussion on computer science
education research and just research
that could be applicable to computer
science so I'd go to conferences and
people would be sharing their
experiences but they didn't really have
any research that they would grounded in
or any frameworks that they're kind of
like building off of and so we kind of
had this surface level discussion that
lacked connection to other practices and
pedagogy and so by alternating between
people who I think would be awesome
guests who kind of share their
experiences with episodes that kind of
unpacks well whether it's a scholarship
I'm just kind of hoping to elevate the
discourse in the field to make it so
that people are more aware of not only
best practices but best practices that
are kind of founded in some kind of
research base nice also to kind of build
off of what you're saying previously one
of the things that really guides most of
the decisions that I've made with my
career and in life is just kind of how
can I have the biggest impact in
hopefully a positive way in the world
and I think that starting this podcast
and focusing on these interviews and
scholarship can kind of have an impact
on the field oh yeah for sure especially
in ways that are outside of what I was
kind of like traditionally taught to do
with like the doctoral program and it's
just like okay you need to go and
present it at conferences you need to
publish and those publications are just
written things that are often put into
journals that are siloed behind like
paywalls
oh I know I hate that and so I feel like
even though I can spend months if not
years working on one publication that
might be read by and cited by like a
small handful of people I think a
podcast is much more accessible to
anybody especially if it's free so why
not put my efforts into something like
that yeah I guess I didn't really
understand the sort of gulf between
research and practitioners until I
started becoming involved with NSF yes
for all RPP and you know like that was a
whole new idea that you could get
researchers and practitioners together
to create a grant and I just thought
that's the way it should be so it's
gonna be very eye-opening I'm sure going
through this program yeah are peepees
those it's it's fascinating that we like
have to kind of almost force that with
funding to get those kind of
collaborations between scholars and
practitioners and that there is that
divide right but then there's also that
divide between scholars and
practitioners with the people who make
policies that impact education and
whatnot so I think that's another area
where there's just this huge gap that
needs to be filled in terms of
discussions maybe I should start
interviewing some politicians yep
are there any other questions that I
have not asked that you want to chat
about all right well since we were
talking about your podcast I had been
listening to your podcast another
podcast I really like is modern figures
and I like other podcasts that are also
produced by you know fancy corporations
but it just got me thinking that yeah
it's a great way to share out with
people who might not necessarily have
access to the thoughts so the resources
or whatever and the current librarian at
st. Anne's and I do a lot of integration
projects in the library and so we've got
a lot of great resources that we've been
creating that we want to share and it's
called Once Upon a tech the literacy
adventures of misfit and misfit I miss a
bit at you know taking this idea of
technology and literacy and really
showing that's big convergence there
there's been crossover there and how we
can get especially more educators and
parents comfortable with the integration
of those two so we got one episode down
in February that's with dr. Jennifer Chu
at the UVA curry school and in March
we're going to do an episode that's
actually behind the scenes of girls geek
day which I just started working on the
audio for that as the founder of tech
girls and this is one of the programs we
run it
reminds me why what we're doing is
impactful but unfortunately why we still
have to do it like there's some stories
and they're just gonna be like what this
is still happening at 2020 ah and where
might people go to connect with you and
the organizations that you work with
sure so I'm a lot of different places
but on Twitter I'm at misfit bytes me
Mis sbit B YT yes and my website is miss
- bit calm so a lot of other stuff is
there and then the tech girl site is
tech - girls that org and with that that
concludes this week's episode of the cs
k8 podcast I hope you enjoyed listening
to it and I hope you consider going to
the show notes to find access to many of
the resources that Kim and I discussed
for example there are a lot of resources
that are relevant to exploring gender
issues and computer science and
technology if you enjoyed this episode
please consider sharing with a friend or
even providing a review on the platform
you're listening to this on stay tuned
next week for another unpacking
scholarship episode where I would
discuss the latest CS education and
research and talk about the potential
implications in classroom settings I
hope you all have a wonderful week and I
will talk to you later
Guest Bio
Kim Wilkens is the founder of Tech-Girls and the K-8 Computer Science Program Coordinator at St. Anne's-Belfield School. Kim believes that every student needs to experience CS so they can take control over how technology impacts their lives, their culture and their future. She is on a mission to bring that vision to reality in her community and beyond. You can find her on twitter at missbitbytes, teentechgirls and onceupontech and on the web at miss-bit.com and tech-girls.org
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