Napiya Nubuya is The Next IT Girl

In this interview with Napiya Nubuya, we discuss Napiya’s journey into CS, how COVID has impacted learning and communities, The Next IT Girl, being a role model for wellness, suggestions for working from home, the influence of fashion and design, our thoughts on the value of education, and so much more.

Welcome back to another episode of the
csk8 podcast my name is jared o'leary
each week of this podcast is either a
solo episode where i unpack some
scholarship in relation to computer
science education or an episode with a
guest or multiple guests in this week's
episode i'm having a conversation with
napia nabuya we discuss napia's journey
into how covet has impacted learning in
communities the next it girl being a
role model for wellness suggestions for
working from home the influence of
fashion and design on nepea our thoughts
on the value of education and so much
more you can find the show notes for
this episode at jaredoleri.com where
there are hundreds if not thousands of
free computer science education
resources as well as a bunch of drumming
and gaming content there's a link in the
app that you're listening to this on
it'll take you directly to the show
notes you'll also notice that this
podcast is powered by boot up
professional development which is the
nonprofit that i work for check out
booduppd.org to learn more about the
free computer science education
curriculum that i've created as well as
the paid professional development that
we provide the districts across the
nation but with all that being said we
will now begin with an introduction by
nepea hi i'm napia nabuya founder of the
next it girl infrastructure engineer and
i'm excited to be here can you tell me
the story of how you got into it and cs
i got started in itncs back in high
school the high school i went to gave us
the opportunity to be able to go to a
vocational school or to do half a day at
school i chose the vocational school and
from there they gave us a few options of
certifications that we could get
different courses that the vocational
school offered one of them being intro
to computer video and graphics a few
others were
masonry cosmetology nail tech
electrician different things like that
my interest was around computer video
and graphics up until that time i was
always playing with computers at my
house doing little tedious things with
my computer the house computer at the
time when we were still using dial up
and from there i enrolled into that
program and i actually attended the
program for two years i took the
beginner class then transition to the
intermediate class and by the time i
graduated high school i have
certification in computer video and
graphics
back then it was around when powerpoint
was starting to become a really big
thing
editing videos video photography was
also becoming a big thing so those were
some of the things that i learned and by
the time i graduated high school i
wanted to know more about it so that
made me want to pursue a computer
science degree in college it's really
interesting where was the high school if
you don't mind me asking somerville
south carolina so right outside of
charleston about 10-15 miles outside of
charleston yeah i mean talk about a
great opportunity to get some education
and experience and whatnot before
graduating from high school that's
wonderful right and i think a lot of
high schools are actually doing it now i
feel like i was at the
beginning of this wave of let's get
students prepared for careers even if
they don't decide to go to college i
know little cousins that you know are
pursuing just different opportunities in
high school you know being able to get
credits you know that they can apply to
college or getting more certifications
by the time they graduate college so i
think schools are doing a better job now
of preparing students for both options
if they want to go to college or
straight into the workforce yeah i know
it's a little weird for me to say it
because like of how long i was in school
but i am a huge fan of not going to
college for a lot of people like you can
do so many cool things so many careers
so many hobbies whatever by going and
continuing education outside of the
university and collegiate level and
whatnot absolutely i'm realizing that
now and it's just like we didn't get
that opportunity i graduated high school
college was your only option right we
didn't know anything else unless you
were
going to be a mechanic or you know just
a blue collar job especially in the
south you know you don't hear about just
these amazing opportunities so i knew
right out of high school college i had
to go to college in order to
gain a profession that was going to
bring in good money for me i'm curious
so for myself i've had a lot of
experiences both positive and negative
that i kind of had a profound impact on
my
own understanding of education like
whether i really enjoyed it or was like
no i hate this and for you i'm wondering
if you could tell a story about like an
experience in education that kind of
impacted your journey into it and cs oh
great question
a specific story
we were tasked with a project during the
computer video and graphics course
insideno our teacher was phenomenal like
i said with powerpoint
slide shows adobe during that time
i don't have a specific story but she
really challenged me to pursue learning
more about the graphics outside of what
she was teaching so it's like you're in
this class for two hours of the day you
leave your home school and go to this
satellite school for two hours of the
day there's only so much she can teach
us in this short amount of time so i
think what really pushed me because i'm
still best friends with other students
who were in that class and none of them
pursued a technology
career and i think just her pushing me
to learn more outside of the class
setting you know telling me just
different programs to learn you know
spend more time in this area and i want
to say that was my ultimate push because
i'm from a family where nobody else are
engineers or are in technology so
seeing just her representation and i
guess hearing that push from her just
really pushed me into it yeah and the
way that you framed that in terms of
like the importance of learning how to
learn because you're gonna have so many
opportunities outside of when the
teacher is there that's something that
would sometimes frustrate kids when i
work with them i'd respond to their
question with a question and then they'd
be like why don't you just answer my
question i'm like well what are you
gonna do if i'm not there to answer your
question like how would you figure this
out let me help you do that right right
and i think that's what she was giving
me because even though a lot of the
projects were in class this is before
like everybody was having laptops right
so you had to have a desktop computer at
your house to
continue learning about what we were
learning in class and we had a desktop
computer home that i just spent so much
time on and every time she would just
introduce a new concept i would be home
working on it after that i have this
high school box in my mom's garage right
now and i just think about you know
pulling little
projects that i did out of there just
simple stuff that we think it's just
super small to us now like creating
powerpoint slideshows or editing videos
which everybody can do at this point but
that was a big deal back then yeah and
it's interesting to reflect on for
myself like the
advantages and privileges that i had
because i had access to technology at
home and then when i see some of the
kids who are like super passionate that
i worked with like in the cs classes
where they're like all they want to do
is just like code in whatever platform
they were working on but then when they
get home they didn't have that
opportunity because they didn't have a
device this was like before covid but
then other kids who did could like go
home and work on stuff on the weekends
and so it definitely had like an impact
on equity issues related to that not to
jump ahead but where i am a big advocate
of with our organization the next it
girl we get asked all the time who's our
target audience is it middle class
students is it
underrepresented students low-income
students and i'm like is everybody
everybody i want every young girl to be
able to have this opportunity of
exposure and you know how they are able
to get that we want to bridge the gap in
terms of you don't have wireless
internet you know let's get her a
modified you don't have a laptop let's
get her a loner laptop i just don't want
it to be a barrier in between
these kids having access to education
i'm curious because of
covid the device and internet access has
kind of from what i've seen changed for
the better for a lot of kids especially
in like rural and low socio-economic
communities i'm wondering if you have
noticed that as well if kids are having
more access to devices and internet at
home now because of recent developments
and whatnot yes and no
yes with the virtual learning every kid
had to have a laptop or a school issued
a laptop i guess a lot of schools were
seeing
just the risk of kids being able to use
home devices you know just the threats
among security so i was very happy to
see that or kind of curious like oh
where did all this money come from all
of a sudden to provide every student
with a laptop right
yeah on the downside of that i see that
at the end of the school year now all of
those devices have to be returned so
from august to may it's great they can
have these devices they're limited to
what they can utilize it for i will say
we had an example of this i want to say
this was last summer because we've been
doing virtual learning for our
organization for three this is our third
year doing it now and they had
restrictions on using the usb port so
we gave the girls different devices that
they needed to complete you know their
summer camp and we would get errors you
know completely
disabled usb ports they couldn't utilize
some browsers that the software we were
using needed to be it was only required
through that browser
so
at the end of the day i am happy that
they are
getting these resources
but then i also see the downside that it
is for a limited time only
and also
it's not fully functional if they want
to do other things outside of whatever
their school district makes them use it
for that is such a good point i hadn't
ever thought of that honestly so like
when i hear about the discussions it's
like devices and access to the internet
but yeah just because you have access to
the internet doesn't mean you have
access to all of the internet it doesn't
mean you have access to all the
capabilities of the device yeah it was
really hard the first year we did
virtual learning for the summer camp is
because we were all experiencing it at
the same time at first right it was a
first for everybody
so thinking in our head as an
organization like oh you know they have
devices it's cool they're doing their
schoolwork on it but then it's like we
bring in all this new equipment
things that you know the school district
i t departments have not thought about
that these kids may ultimately want to
use their device for and now we're
blocked on certain things so we did have
a moment where certain girls could not
do certain parts of the summer camp
because of that
you know getting them set up on their
home computer now so they can utilize it
and they've never used their home
computer before they're used to a mobile
device so it was a lot of challenges
that first year so i'm on the fence on
both sides of it so yeah it's a yes i
know for me yeah my wheels are spinning
so i appreciate this
you're welcome
yeah i'm thinking of like future grants
and whatnot we need to address that in
some of the proposals it's important so
i'm even like in talks now which is like
how can we get grant
money for specifically the next it girl
issued on devices we got laptops donated
maybe about four or five years ago but
these were like the real bulky
laptops i'm trying to think what was it
hp's or dells i can't remember the ones
that weigh about 30 pounds fully
functional
great so that's what we're sending out
to the girls as loner laptops and
they're looking at them as they're the
most archaic things in the world and i'm
just like it works but it works so
just looking for
being able to grab grant money to where
we can issue our own things out to
students and they don't have to go
through that troubleshooting you know 30
minutes of troubleshooting during our
program that takes away from their
learning time yeah yeah we get that with
our professional development where like
a district will block like the website
like that we're using or whatever like
the device just isn't working or they
roll and update and like didn't tell
them that it was going to happen and
right now you got to go through the it
department i need this approved i need
access yeah it's the whole thing yeah
and every district is different in terms
of like how
much permission they give to teachers
like on one of them they gave me like an
admin level password where i could
bypass some stuff but then on another
one like they blocked like my course
access to the graduate courses i was
taking it's like why can't i go to my
course like
you're blocking that
it's horrible i'm curious from an
organizational perspective how do you
hope to close like the gender and race
gaps that are pervasive in tech it's
still ongoing i don't have a this is the
end-all be-all it is something new every
couple of weeks to be honest as
different things are popping up right
now our game plan is just to continue to
create exposure programs to these young
women who are aspiring to be in tech or
they don't know anything about tech and
considering it to just be an option
because they're hearing so much about it
the next it girl focuses on exposure
programs that are beyond the buzzword of
coding they hear it in school so much
they hear it on tv whenever they take
you know their computer class at school
it's just coding quote unquote like i
mentioned earlier we're currently in our
summer camp right now and one of the
girls said last week i don't like coding
i did it in school and i hate it
i don't understand it and it's hard and
just all these negative things so we
create this sisterhood is what we like
to call it it's just like these are
women or young girls who are going to
push you because they're aspiring to do
the same thing
so i stopped the summer camp i can't
remember what we were doing but i
stopped it and i was like everybody
unmute yourself and say
brittany you got this right so just
encouraging her it's just like she
because she just kept throwing all these
negative words out what i told her and i
was just like you do know you may never
get coded right you may never understand
it but that is not the end all be all
for you to be in tech there are
thousands of other roles that are going
unfulfilled right now that you don't
even know about because you haven't been
exposed to them you never heard of them
so what the next it girl does is we
have our meetings prior to our program
year starting and saying this is what's
hot in technology right now us ui design
drone technology artificial intelligence
all these things or this is what's the
next big thing about to come out let's
do programs around these things so the
girls are understanding them more they
may hear about it but they don't know
anything about it right and not only
that how is it then circling back to
what they do in everyday life so
going back to the summer program that's
happening now our 8 to 12 year olds are
learning about intro to it so we're
starting with the beginning basics this
is what a computer is this is how it
started this is why it started etc and
last week they were talking the topic
was around programs like how programs
are created so
very simple it's a series of steps that
us as programmers create for a computer
to do something the computer does
nothing without us telling it how to do
it right it will sit there we create
these commands so we go through an
example of name a program that you use
in everyday life they started just
naming things right after we explained
this simply what a computer is they
quickly understood i use computers every
day microwaves washing machines
my roomba robot vacuum my car is a
computer you know just different things
like that and i had to laugh one of the
girls said but won't all of these make
us lazy all these programs make us
[Laughter]
and i was like lazy or convenient and i
said the laziness is up to you right if
you get so
accustomed to these things and you know
i don't want nothing unless it's
automated but i said i think about
convenience i was like okay if you think
it makes you lazy don't use your washing
machine anymore don't use your microwave
anymore don't use your hoverboard
anymore all of these things are programs
and we use them in everyday life so the
goal
right now is just to keep creating these
programs that expose them to different
technology concepts
ultimately so they can find what their
best interest is in tech and we're not
pushing technology on them as well so
it's not like you have to go into tag
it's just like no what is your hobby you
like you're a musician you can be a
producer you can be a engineer right
just all of the industries that y'all
are interested in they all tie back or
technology is integrated in it some way
somehow yeah i really appreciate that a
lot of people who talk about cs in
particular it's often from this almost
like a colonizing perspective where it's
like i like this thing so you're gonna
like it too and it's like
no maybe
and i wonder if that's what they're
being told in school right because it's
not like
they're learning about other things
outside of coding they're like i don't
like scratch and i'm just like
please give these kids something else
because they that's all they've been
exposed to right and it's just like i
took it one semester i hated it i don't
want to do it yeah in my own classroom
the former classes that i worked with
they had several options for platforms
like hey if you're interested in games
and stories maybe scratch if you're
interested in music sonic pi is great
for that if you're interested in art
animation khan academy if you want to
make an app cool swift xcode like here
you go what do you want to explore and
then kids appreciated that because they
actually got to like take what they're
interested in and explore that as
opposed to me saying hey you're going to
make this thing that i'm passionate
about that you might not care about i
wish that was discussed more in school
but then i also know it's a barrier for
what the teachers can teach as well
because a lot of the times whoever is
teaching that scratch class or
whatever the coding class doesn't have
any computer science experience they
don't have any technology experience
they're just giving teachers the
curriculum and they're just word for
word reading it to students yeah which
kind of brings me to another question
that i have so whenever i prepare for
like podcast interviews i'll read just
like any kind of media that i can find
on a guest just learn more about them
and the organizations they work with but
something that stood out was like the
mentorship that you offer for kids
especially with your focus on like
wellness and holistic health so the way
that it was phrased and one of the
responses that i saw was you were
talking about how not only are you
trying to build like self-confidence and
worth
in students through mentorship but also
to model how to manage it all i'm
curious if you could talk about that
yeah oh it's a daily task for me i'm not
even going live
i am having to redefine it every day
holistically for me is taking care of my
mind body spirit and soul every day so
putting my phone on do not disturb at a
certain time right making sure that i'm
focusing
on myself from this time to this time so
my do not disturb hits from 10 pm to 10
am so you cannot get in touch with me
after 10 pm at night or before 10 a.m
the next morning so
and i could be doing absolutely nothing
right that's just me prioritizing myself
and me setting boundaries because social
media is addictive right i can scroll
instagram for hours right that's one of
my approaches also you know just how am
i feeding myself throughout the day so
i'm an engineer i've been an engineer
almost seven years and
i can easily get overwhelmed like i am
always super anxious when i'm doing like
code changes or i'm on call when we
doing escalations i'm just always really
anxious like what if i take this server
down or oh what if this you know the
wrong semicolon here will completely
just for this code i'm always on edge
and i feel like
it may never go away i feel like that
paranoia is just a part of being an
engineer so making sure i'm listening to
something that's also calming me
throughout the day so i as well listen
to podcasts i'm listening to
inspirational music or listening to you
know an interview or one of my favorite
artists or actresses or actors or
something like that and then also being
mindful that working from home now that
i need to get out of this space at some
point in my day i was working from home
prior to the pandemic so all in all i've
been working from home maybe six years
now so it is a long time and what i
first realized was
you work longer hours working from home
so i have friends who are just like oh i
want to work from home position and i'm
like it's not always cracked out to be
like i don't know if anybody else is
saying that who works from home but for
me somebody who likes to be out likes to
be doing things and social
being confined to your house and walking
you know every day is not like my ideal
you know life i had to you know get
invested in a co-working space so you
know if i feel like i need to change the
scenery i can go 10 minutes down the
street to a co-working space go to a
coffee shop but being able to get
outside of these four walls now that i'm
confined to these four walls to work is
a really big deal for me so if i do
decide to stay home working one day that
i'm leaving i'm going to the gym
i'm you know going to run some errands i
don't want to do food delivery one day i
need to get out i'm one of those people
where i thrive from sunlight so i need
to make sure that you know my body is
getting in that vitamin d you know every
day if possible so
those are just different things i do in
drinking water i love water i am not
somebody that drinks a lot of juice i
don't drink soda so
keeping myself hydrated taking vitamins
juicing smoothies that is my
holistic approach and wellness um that i
also like to tell the girls as well
because if i don't feel well that
translates into my work as well yeah and
the connection between just like mind
and body i don't think people realize
that and focused on that enough like the
reason why i work out so much and the
reason why i drink smoothies as my
breakfast and lunch it's like vegetables
and fruit and whatnot and the reason why
i do that is because it has a profound
impact on my mental health and as
somebody who suffers from like chronic
depression i need to make sure i monitor
that because otherwise it could spiral
out of control so i try and avoid that
i know and i was just having a
conversation with a friend and she told
me she doesn't take vitamins and i was
like what
you need to take why don't you take
vitamins i feel when i have like i've
ran out of vitamins and i have not
started taking i know exactly when i'm
not taking vitamins like i feel it
immediately so it's just little things
and
i miss the in-person connection but then
i'm also finding how to adapt to this to
where i don't feel like i need to be
back into an office to thrive as well so
like you said drinking my smoothies you
know i was just telling you know some
friends we all skate roller skate like
let's go roller skating at piedmont park
this weekend you know just different
things like that it's my way to
decompress and then also a way for me to
still enjoy myself
and not get tiresome because like i said
earlier working from home you work much
longer than what's expected and don't
even realize it right do you have advice
for
people who
might find it difficult to kind of
separate their leisure space from their
workspace like if they're in a small
like studio or one bedroom apartment and
like their office is like literally in
their living room basically that was me
i just bought a house last year and
prior to that i was in a 750 square foot
one bedroom apartment outside of my
bedroom was my kitchen living room
office workout room all in
one space and i knew then when i started
working from home i was just like yeah
i need more space advice take breaks if
you can't do like a long extended period
of time just take like 10-15 minutes i
made a point i think back to when i was
in my apartment i would set times where
i would go check my mailbox you know
even if all of my bills are e-bills
right i get everything to my email but
just walking down to my mailbox and then
going to see the leasing agent you know
we me and her really good friends so
just going to talk to her i used to live
in an area where we had lots of trails
and the trails were so long so just
going and walking 10 minutes down the
trail and coming back but just setting
and planning out your day
worked for me
and i have to give all the credit to my
friend karen rest in peace karen
definitely was a avid planner i have
never met somebody who had so many
planners and notebooks and stationery
and before she passed away i said sis we
really need to get your stationery
business up and going because she would
always send me links like you need this
planner i love this planner and i just
felt like and it's still not organized
that i felt my life was a little bit
organized a little better and i found
myself being able to
keep myself accountable you know when i
saw something written down versus oh
shoot i forgot to take that two minute
walk today or i forgot to go to the
mailbox i see it written down so i know
okay i need to stick to this because
it's physically written and i can see it
so i'm holding myself more accountable
for it yeah time blocking and planning
and whatnot that has definitely helped
me out my first therapist that i went to
helped me go through that process and it
made me realize oh
i literally don't have a single moment
to myself like this is like during my
undergrad when it was like i start
teaching at like seven a.m and then i go
until class until like seven or eight pm
at night and there's like no breaks in
between so oh no no i definitely learned
the hard way where i would start working
at nine and then next thing you know i
look at the window and the sun is
setting it's 7 30 8 o'clock and i
haven't took lunch
i got a whole bunch of snacks at my desk
i gained a whole bunch of weight from
there and i was just like yeah no can't
do that yeah it's like a gift and a
curse it's great that able to sit and
focus for that extended period of time
because i able to do that as well but
it's also
so detrimental to your health when you
don't take those breaks like when i was
painting the house many years ago when
we got it like i literally just like
didn't even think about food and forgot
about it and was like oh wow i've been
painting for like 15 hours today i need
to stop and like actually take a break
and probably open up windows
it was all trial and error for me was it
thing that i tried that didn't work
absolutely the committing to going to
the gym every day was the hardest thing
that i ever put down in my planner so i
had to start setting realistic goals and
then once i set those realistic goals
then pushed a little further past that
so
instead of saying i'm gonna go to the
gym you know every day this week i was
just like i'm gonna go to the gym for 15
minutes let me set like a
mini expectation you know just to see if
i meet that okay i did 15 minutes okay
now i'm going to work out for 30 minutes
on thursday so being able to set
small milestones for yourself and i
think it's the same way with any goal we
said in life it's great you know we have
this big picture but how i go said it's
just like okay i know i want to you know
get my phd but what are the steps i need
to do to get there first before i
ultimately reach that goal i need to
make sure i have work-life balance if i
don't have work-life balance now i mean
damn sure you're not gonna have it you
know pursuing a phd that's just how my
mind operates like i see the end goal
but i know there's obstacles in between
that i need to deal with first before i
get to that yeah that's smart yeah work
life on balance is definitely something
to get a hold of before you start phd
here hence why i have not gotten it
yet yeah give it time plan for it and
then it's worth it in the long run but
it's a lot of work
yeah well it deserves i tell you i'm
curious if we zoom out so like when i
was looking at
the different materials like on your
website and whatnot like it seemed like
tech wellness but then also fashion and
design was kind of another pillar for
you i'm a self-proclaimed it girl i
coined that for myself
i was a teenager
i have always had a passion for fashion
since the very beginning
i think it comes from both sides of my
family my mom and my dad's side i'm
nigerian so if you know anything about
nigerian culture we are
extravagant in everything that we do
from our
small birthday parties to weddings to
funerals everything is just a
celebration and that is also reflected
in what we wear as well
growing up and just seeing and wearing
clothes that embody colors and it in
patterns and designs and things like
that has always attracted my eye and i
was always very particular about what i
wore even as a little girl and then on
my mom's side
she her sister and my grandmother were
all seamstresses so my mom made all of
my prom dresses my aunt did a
bridesmaid's dress for me and a wedding
and my aunt tailors all of my clothes
now and it's full circle right even
though i don't have the talents of
sewing that but i still you know embody
that
so in high school the goal was to pursue
a fashion degree i wanted to go to scada
i wanted you know to be in the fashion
industry some way somehow i didn't know
exactly what i wanted to do but i know i
wanted to be in that industry and going
back to what we were talking about
earlier i knew i needed to go to college
and have a promising degree where i knew
i could get out and start making money
immediately my parents were a little
hesitant about
fashion for when they were paying for my
school so it was kind of like okay you
need to do what we want you to do
so i kind of put fashion to the side and
decided to do technology because i was
equally as passionate about technology
as well
even though i was not pursuing a degree
in fashion i still have my independence
with what i wore to school every day and
looking back now i was looking at some
pictures just from college like i was
doing a lot dressing and going to class
like now the kids are just wearing
sweatpants every day in slime that would
never mean i was getting dressed every
day to go to class so i was still
embodying that that never left me even
though i was still pursuing a technology
career i get out of college and i'm
still thinking like how can i tap into
this you know this fashion sign that's
when like blogging started to become a
really big thing and people were just
like documenting this is what i wore
today instagram just hit the scene and
people were actually taking pictures and
posting them without the filters and the
good quality photos like it was still
very you know
fuzzy photos back then
and i was spending a lot of money on
clothes like always hitting express
american eagle
oh navy
and you know just with the college
budget i had
and i said okay i'm gonna start a blog
called the next a girl just chronicling
what i was wearing that day
the hottest thing out right now i i
followed all the designers my goal was
to go to fashion week and you know just
a typical it girl and i graduated
college went to indianapolis that's
where i got my first tech job
and that blog got nowhere i did not have
the time or the commitment like i
thought i did to post pictures every day
write paragraphs about what i was
wearing tag it
all this other stuff and i was just so
disappointed in myself because it was
just like wait i love fashion all these
years
but i didn't have the commitment to
really put into this blog so the blog
was called the next egg girl and it's
that idol i had the domain and
everything for so long i was at a point
in my life where i was just like god
what is my passion now because i felt so
defeated like that i thought fashion was
just gonna you know this fashion blog
was gonna be it for me i always say god
really revealed it to me because i was
like what am i supposed to be doing when
i first got my first tech job i just saw
and i noticed around me i was the only
person that looked like you didn't see
any other black
people or black women
in the engineering or technology space
at the company i started at that was
really bothersome for me coming from the
south and then moving to the midwest and
she's like where's all the black people
here
and it felt it was very uncomfortable
for a long time because it's just like
i didn't felt like i belonged all my
co-workers were white over the age of 40
kids grandkids pets and here it is here
i am this single sex in the city you
know i'm
right out of college living my best life
you know making good money and i can't
relate to you sir you know it was really
hard i didn't have a community at my job
and i thought for sure like before i
moved there that you know you see the
office and you just think like i'm gonna
get along great whatever no that was not
it for me
so i was just like i need a sense of
community you know people who i can call
on and be like help me with this code
change or
can you review this on github for me
something and i did not have that so i
kept having this idea of creating a
business around
getting more women exposed to technology
it was at first it was just women i
started with just women but then when i
did more research i realized that women
of color were the most neglected in this
industry meaning
we weren't exposed or we attempted to
pursue but fell off and all that just
really intrigued me but then i dug
deeper and i realized well once we're at
you know 25 the age i was at going
through all of this it's a little too
late right i've already considered
another
career path i'm already out of tech we
need to hit these girls when they're
younger expose them when they're much
younger so that's when i decided like i
want to do young black girls at that
time it was still an idea i still have
the paper of where chicken scratch and
just me writing out what this business
was gonna be and i'm gonna forever hold
on to that paper
just writing it out and just bouncing
that idea off of friends and family
members and they were like yeah good
idea so i sat on that idea for
oh my gosh months months after that
and the one
the leap of faith was a pigeon
competition had just started shout out
to kendria for pitch east i believe it's
a non-profit where they help
entrepreneurs get exposure to their
programs and pitch their idea in return
to get startup funds and just start up
resources great great idea
and i decided to
apply i got accepted i had nothing i had
that notebook eight by what is the eight
by eleven piece of paper
and all i had was ideas of what i wanted
this business to be
no logo no website nothing so i was just
like you know i'ma just go because she
was like no it's for anybody who's you
know completely at the ground level to
somebody who already has something
functioning so i went and i have always
been a part of public speaking things
growing up i've done pageants
i've been on projects in high school
that has always had me in public
speaking spaces
and for some reason i was stuttering
stanley that day i could not articulate
anything
when i went up there to talk about the
next it girl and i was so embarrassed my
mom flew into town
my little cousins who i'm trying to get
the pursuit tech is in town
and i invited all my girlfriends in
indianapolis there and i'm just like i
am embarrassed it was so oh my goodness
i was so embarrassed and i just could
not believe i knew for sure i like when
i went back to my seat i was telling my
mom like yeah we can go like let's just
go and she's like no no you don't quit
you don't give up like we gotta hear the
winner so the concept is
it's patrons you know that are there who
are judging the startups and it's
audience vote so whoever gets the most
votes gets the prize at the end if i
remember correctly the other two
contestants were
somebody who had a full functioning
mobile app and then somebody else who
was like in the process of had like a
beta app as well and i'm just like look
at them like there's no way they're
gonna vote for somebody who had nothing
but stuttering words
she comes back up there and she's
getting ready to announce the winner
and she was like yeah napier uh with the
next egg girl and i'm just like what are
you serious and i was just like did
y'all just watch exactly what happened
no lie jared to this day i have never
watched we watch this video back my mom
recorded the entire thing i refuse to
watch it
and this is like
seven eight years later i still have not
watched that video so from there
i can't remember the exact dollar amount
but i think i got like 350 which was
thousands to me right for somebody who
didn't have anything at all i got legal
advice
somebody helped me set up a website just
all these things that startup founders
need when they just had that idea
from there it took off like that was the
ignition that i needed to you know send
me off and it's just history ever since
so if there is a
young woman who's listening to you right
now and it's like i want to do that what
advice might you give them to
pursue a passion like that take leaps of
fade i had nothing when i say nothing i
had nothing i got a logo done like 24
hours prior to that event like it was
calling one of my friends like you know
anybody that does logos and has a quick
turnaround which is still the same logo
that we use to this day
but take leaps of save and if you're
sure you know that this is something
that
is needed something that you have faith
in i say why not like what what's the
worst that could happen i was okay with
getting denied or knowing i did a bad
job that day when i walked to my seat i
had already accepted that i was
stuttering all over the place and that i
was going to lose i was totally fine
with that right but
to hear my name call the organization
i'm just like yeah this autobody
experience right now i just i don't
understand what's going on
i'm not one to say like have that much
faith in yourself because sometimes it
does take people around you to see
something that you don't see and i
didn't see that right i knew the idea
that i had and i knew the impact and
just the meaningfulness that it would
bring to so many people but i needed
people to continuously speak life into
me and speak life into this idea for me
to pursue it so i also say community
make sure you have a strong community
around you that's you know still pushing
into you when you want to give up but
first step is just taking that leap of
faith whatever that is for you if that's
right in the business plan
that's emailing an investor you have not
even met yet that if that's going
door-to-door with just flyers take that
leap of faith like sometimes you gotta
go to like the very basics of things in
order to you know get that like humbling
experience like i believe in this idea
like this will be something huge one day
i believe in this idea i need other
people to see it as well yeah i really
appreciate that that definitely
resonates i'm kind of curious like so
one of the quotes that i read from you i
wonder if it relates to this or if maybe
maybe not but the quote is find your
inspiration your work is not for you
it's for someone else oh yeah
that oh it has such a totally different
meaning
today what i was referencing when i
first said that but i always say it's
bigger than me if i'm doing it for me
then
i will always let myself down right i
get denied a grant tomorrow oh well it
wasn't meant to be or you know
we don't get full registration for a
summer class oh we can just cancel that
summer workshop now i've had so many of
those moments
and if it wasn't for thinking about what
the girls would lose at the end of the
day
you know
this representation this mentorship this
exposure i would have already been done
with this right so it has to be bigger
than me in order for me to still keep
going and really have that passion and
fire behind it what that means to me
today
we lost one of our team members about
three weeks ago karen vaughn and cam was
oh gosh karen was a gym
karen
during her time with us
sacrificed so
much she was a senior software engineer
been in tech and she would
always correct me i would say a few
years
no 17 plus years she was very specific
let these people know how long i've been
in this industry so she was a veteran i
would always look to her for advice and
just direction and how i need to grow as
an engineer
and i just think about how karen was
passionate and i mean passionate about
showing these girls mentorship in terms
of what she learned over the years but
not only that but
helping them to become the next it girl
in her time of her being sick she didn't
complain and sacrifice you know her time
just to make sure that she was present
for these girls and to me that's exactly
what that quote represents if that quote
was personified it would be curious so
like i said it has such a different
meaning now i'm seeing it done in person
versus me saying it
i take that with me every day and it's
just like karen was pushing through at
some of the worst
moments in her life right
and i just think about how she still
showed up for these girls she was so
present for these girls she
scheduling things through her own you
know personal schedule outside of you
know anything that we have going on and
i would always tell her we would be on
breaks for the organization i'm like
karen we don't wanna break we are not
working like can we rest and she's like
i know but i have these ideas and i just
need to get these kids out
so she was always thinking
beyond herself at her memorial the
preacher said
the goal is to help somebody else and
that's what karen did so that vote is
caring and it has such a greater meaning
to me now yeah thank you for sharing
that i appreciate that it definitely
resonates with my own approach like all
my career decisions have been like how
can i increase the impact that i'd like
to have on the world or even some of the
volunteer stuff before kovid i was a
team lead for habitat for humanity so
like helping build houses and whatnot
for people who couldn't afford them it's
nice to be a part of non-profits in
particular where you're able to focus on
helping other people i think about what
even career-wise that's ultimately my
goal
every time i'm like job hopping or
looking to
grow
my career it's just like does this
business do anything
that i would say i'm passionate about at
the end of the day or am i just working
here just for a paycheck like their
solutions or their services have a
greater impact
beyond the ceo you know getting more
money like what causes do they care
about you know things like that so i'm
really big on that now and at this stage
in my career how do you kind of like
iterate or practice your own abilities
like to get to the next stage whether
it's like as like a mentor in text cs
educator however you want to conceive of
that question i
so one thing i said to myself prior to
me
starting the next it girl
i was a
heavy advocate of being volunteers for
other organizations once the next april
started it became
increasingly overwhelming to where my
time
had to be fully into the next it girl
but that's quickly when i realized okay
we need a team now so being able to
bring other passionate individuals who
care about the same thing see more young
girls of color in tech or
stem or you know whatever it is that
relates to our mission i still want to
give back to other organizations because
just like you're in need of volunteers
desperately another organization is as
well so i make a point to
even with kovit virtually volunteer or
virtually participate and give back to
another organization i'm really big on
giving like what goes around comes
around so i want to plant seeds in
another organization because we're
getting all those seeds as well we're
growing and i want that for another
organization as well yeah and then you
learn new things like new skills or you
can network with more people like it's
win-win all around it's win-win all
around and i am not a and all y'all i do
not know everything prior to the next a
girl i had no nonprofit experience and
it's crazy to me when people come and
ask me and i'm just like i still don't
know like we are literally going through
this together every day it's something
new every day so i'm learning from y'all
who have been in the industry for years
you know this nonprofit's been around 30
years and i'm just like help us you know
we need this help as well so i feel like
that's how i grow as a founder like you
said being able to pour into another
organization i get something back out of
that and i'm able to also put that back
into our organization as well yeah and
getting outside of the comfort zone like
even this podcast like i'm an introvert
and i did not like the sound of my voice
and so those two things you'd think i
would not have a podcast but we're now
approaching like 150 episodes and so
this was uncomfortable for me but i
learned a lot
that's like a daily prayer for me like
god pushed me out of my comfort zone
because i am a creature of habit i am
self aware to say that i love what i
love i am not ashamed of that
but i can get complacent and think if
it's not broke don't fix it type of
thing
i subscribe to that and i have to be
pushed out of my comfort zone sometimes
like i said earlier that's why i'm not
afraid to say i don't know everything
that's why i welcome new ideas but i do
have to be like you know you can do this
or try it at least one time just be
pushed out a little bit so that leads to
a question that i like to ask guests and
so what's something that you're
currently working on that you could use
some help with oh great question the
organization we are in our i believe
this is our fifth programming year so we
have been doing programs for five years
we are looking number one always have
volunteers right the next it girl
mission is representation matters so
as much as we're teaching these
technology concepts we need the
representation to talk about whoever it
is they doing it on a day-to-day basis
how they got into it basically kind of
what you asked me in this podcast like
our girls love to hear from other
women men
who are already trailblazing that path
i think it's a great moment to step away
from the curriculum and just be like hey
i'm a ux ui designer by day this is what
i did to get in the industry this is
what you need to know to get in this
industry i think that's what fuels the
girls even more like i'm actually seeing
somebody who does it so many great
connections have come from that having
guests volunteers and speakers come on
during our programs aside for that
just you know scalability and exposure
like we're hosting other workshops new
topics this year
around
digital design intro to procreate the
girls you know get ready to learn about
hand skill you know digital design
graphic design so that's amazing to
introduce these new concepts so we're
always looking for volunteers however
you think your skills can be utilized
within the organization we'd be more
than happy to have okay so what do you
wish there's more research on that could
inform your own practices i think around
the demographics racial disparities in
technology but
being able
to bring research on where
the disconnect in certain
demographics
are for technology to be
exposed so
why the same opportunities are not in
chicago public schools but are in the
chicago suburbs
i guess around just like the same
technology
opportunities if that makes sense
i think at the end of the day it all
comes down to funding but you would
think public schools would have the most
funding overall over like certain
charter schools or you know private
schools but it seems like the schools
that are not inner city schools are the
schools with the most funding
are getting kids they exposure the
opportunities that a lot of other kids
are not so i'll talk about my hometown
for example
my hometown is right outside of the city
of charleston but it's still considered
the same area and it was only three high
schools that had access to the
vocational school that i mentioned
earlier the inner city schools the
charleston county the directly inner
city schools that were predominantly
black schools did not get those same
opportunities now
that you know technology has progressed
and school districts are now seeing like
you mentioned earlier a lot of these
kids don't have the ability to go to
college
they're investing in
career centers now so i know three
career centers popped up for the inner
city schools where kids same concept
like i had earlier had the option to
split their school day and go and get
certifications so but i had that
opportunity 13 years ago these kids are
now just getting this opportunity within
the last two to three years
so i think research around that is
important because a lot of inner city
schools are definitely behind but how
can we as founders researchers how can
we bring awareness to this show these
statistics in order to get more
availability to them if that makes any
sense yeah it definitely makes sense i'm
gonna do like a improv strategy with
like a yes and to say yes i love that
and we should also focus on the pedagogy
differences between the two places and
the reason why i say that is because
i've spoken with some people
who when working in suburban areas they
will often use pedagogies that
focus on creativity let's just have fun
creating
making interesting things but then in
inner city schools i've heard some
people use pedagogies that i consider to
be very problematic because the focus
was on obedience and following
directions and that does not sit well
with me in my opinion and probably
doesn't sit well with kids so even if
they do have access to tech they might
be taught in a way that makes them go
why would i want to do this this isn't
interesting yeah yeah oh that's good
that's a really good add-on as well i
think that's always been you know
low-key bothersome to me because
i grew up in a predominantly white town
it's a very small
five-mile seven mile radius town right
where
it's predominantly white
majority of the population is older and
very quiet quaint town and i had that
opportunity
so long ago and as the organization is
expanding and we just planted a chapter
in charleston and
we're getting this you know
hey this new career center just opened
wait just open i had that opportunity
you know 13 years ago why did it take 13
years later for the inner city school to
get it as well yeah that's a good point
yeah if anyone happens to know any
research that might assist then please
feel free to reach out to us and let us
know but
i'm all for it if i ever you know pursue
a phd that would that would definitely
be my topic
are there any questions that you have
for myself for for the field as a whole
the two-part question how do you feel
about the state of technology now and
how do you feel about the alternatives
available for not getting college
degrees to get into technology so for
ces i feel like we're in kind of like a
weird space where
let's say maybe even 10 years from now
this isn't going to be as big of a
problem we're coming at this from like
two ends of the spectrum in that we have
teachers who are now learning how to
code and learning what computer science
is they've never done it before and
we're working with them and they are
teaching kids who are now starting to
learn this but then somewhere in the
middle we have students who are becoming
teachers who have never experienced code
and they're like just now graduating but
be few and far between most people will
be like oh yeah i remember when we did
programming in second grade and i've
been doing it ever since and so it'll be
much more commonplace they'll know what
it feels like looks like etc but we have
this weird like we need to provide
professional development like the
nonprofit that i work for does that but
then we also need to provide pre-service
education to help but then everything we
do now is gonna need to
scale more down the road because okay
right now we can often assume fifth
graders don't have experience so we just
teach them as if they're brand new to
coding but what about if they had
several years of coding experience
before that so it's kind of like this
weird the field as a whole if we're at
like a i don't know a seven on a scale
we're gonna just have to keep every year
moving up and increasing like what the
expectations are but then how do we take
into consideration locations and like
communities that don't have access to cs
still and like it just kind of increases
that divide so i don't know if that kind
of answers the first part of that
question we're in a weird space i agree
i think we are as well so the second
part the alternatives like i know it's
weird coming from somebody with a phd
but like college is often overrated and
there's a lot of like wonderful things
you can learn even on youtube like or
udemy or whatever
all the college you've condemned at this
point so that is a big coming from you
i mean it enabled me to do very specific
things that i wanted to do i wanted to
be able to do research so getting a phd
made sense but for most people you don't
need to do that you don't even need to
get your undergrad to do some really
awesome things some of the best
educators i've ever had did not have
college degrees and they were phenomenal
educators better than some educators who
had teaching degrees yeah so i'm a fan
of like more opportunities more avenues
or paths for people to take that isn't
the traditional take out like 60 70 000
of loans and get a degree in something
you don't care about yeah i agree i wish
the alternatives would have started back
when i started college because it's just
like dang these loans i have to pay off
now
kind of similar to what you just said i
think i got what college did for me i
understood the why behind it versus just
learning the concepts of how to do
something so i understand the textbook
of what computer science is from the
logical standpoint of it versus
just seeing and being taught how to do
something so i feel like you get the
best of both worlds in college versus
when you go to a boot camp
this is this one skill we're going to
learn html css so i think that's the
benefit of college but then again for
somebody who i need to be in this field
immediately boot camp all the way
certification all the way yeah yeah and
for what like i had a lot of students
who were just amazing people but really
bad at school or they just didn't have
that why should i do this so they failed
a lot of classes so how are they going
to get into colleges and there needs to
be other opportunities for them or what
about people who decide down the road oh
i want to actually go back to education
and college might need not be the path
for it the more the merrier in my
opinion absolutely so then the last
question that i have is where might
people go to connect with you and the
organizations that you work with yes so
anything regarding the next it girl you
can find us at www.thenextitgirl.org
and we are at the next get girl on all
platforms
please keep up with us we have our
programming year just started two weeks
ago so
we are releasing dates of upcoming
programs so like i mentioned before
volunteers we are always looking for
representation to be a part of our
program and just engage with our girls
as well like i said if you think you
have a valuable skill that can be
translated into the organization i'd
love to have a chat with you as well and
with that that concludes this week's
episode of the csk8 podcast i hope you
enjoyed this conversation with napia i
certainly did and i hope you consider
sharing a review or sharing this podcast
with somebody else who might benefit
from listening to it friendly reminder
you can find the show notes at
jaredoleary.com as well as hundreds if
not thousands of free cs drumming and
gaming resources because i like to
create a lot of content stay tuned next
week for another episode until then i
hope you're all staying safe and are
having a wonderful week

Guest Bio

A "techie fashionista" on a mission to bridge the gaps of race and gender in the tech industry. Napiya is a CS degree graduate, insightful, results-driven IT professional with 3+ years of experience with infrastructure cloud based solution projects. When she's not deploying Window Server VMs, Napiya is collaborating with brands to offer creative design services ranging from websites, logos, and branding templates. She is also sharing her tech experience by mentoring and consulting other aspiring techies both young and matured. Young aspiring techies are helped through Napiya's nonprofit organization The Next IT Girl. Founded in 2015, The Next IT Girl is a technology education nonprofit that educates, mentors, and advances young women of color ages 8-22 to pursue technology - related careers. Through hands-on and digital workshops each student is exposed to the many areas of interest in information technology.

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  - In this interview with Napiya Nubuya, we discuss Napiya’s journey into CS, how COVID has impacted learning and communities, The Next IT Girl, being a role model for wellness, suggestions for working from home, the influence of fashion and design, our thoughts on the value of education, and so much more.
- Nicki Washington is Unapologetically Dope
  - In this interview with Nicki Washington, we discuss the importance of cultural competency, expanding beyond “diversity” by focusing on creating inclusive and equitable environments, learning from people and scholarship outside of the field, lessons learned working with CS educators across the country, lessons learned while teaching during a pandemic, focusing on the humanity in computer science education, and much more.
- Performative Acts and Gender Constitution: An Essay in Phenomenology and Feminist Theory
  - In this episode I unpack Butler’s (1988) seminal publication titled “Performative acts and gender constitution: An essay in phenomenology and feminist theory,” which unpacks the notion that gender is a performative act that is socially and historically constructed.
- Promoting Equity and Activism in Computer Science Education with Kim Wilkens
  - In this interview with Kim Wilkens, we discuss embracing failure, encouraging activism and community impact through CS and technology, supporting marginalized gender identities in CS, and much more.
- Racial Justice Amidst the Dangers of Computing Creep: A Dialogue
  - In this episode I unpack Shah and Yadav’s (2023) publication titled “Racial justice amidst the dangers of computer creep: A dialogue,” which presents a dialogue that problematizes issues around racial justice in computing education.
- Re-examining Inequalities in Computer Science Participation from a Bourdieusian Sociological Perspective
  - In this episode I unpack Kallia and Cutts’ (2021) publication titled “Re-examining inequalities in computer science participation from a Bourdieusian sociological perspective,” which uses Bourdieu’s discussions of capital, habitus, and field to analyze 147 publications on CS interventions.
- The Shire as Metaphor for Systemic Racism with Joyce McCall
  - In this interview with Joyce McCall, we unpack and problematize some of the issues around race and racism in relation to education. In particular, we discuss the importance of allies not only showing up to support marginalized or oppressed groups, but staying when conversations get uncomfortable; the Shire from the Lord of the Rings as a metaphor for hegemony and systemic racism; as well as a variety of theories such as critical race theory, double consciousness, cultural capital; and much more.
- More episodes related to equity
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