Connecting with and Listening to Students with Dominick Sanders

In this interview with Dominick Sanders, we discuss the importance of connecting with and listening to students, the impact of being a positive role model for kids, considering equity for individuals and across the entire state of South Carolina, what Dominick learned through their experience with Xposure STEM, Dominick’s plan for improving CS in South Carolina, Dominick’s experience with CSTA’s Equity Fellowship, how Dominick continues to learn and grow as a CS educator, thinking through intersectionality in relation to representation, and so much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast my name is jared o'leary

    each episode of this podcast alternates

    between solo episodes where i unpack

    scholarship in relation to computer

    science education

    and episodes with a guest or multiple

    guests where we discuss a variety of

    topics related to computer science

    education

    in this week's particular episode i'm

    interviewing dominic sanders and we

    discuss the importance of connecting

    with and listening to students

    the impact of being a positive role

    model for kids considering equity for

    individuals and across the entire state

    of south carolina

    what dominic learned through their

    experience with exposure stem

    dominic's plan for improving cs in south

    carolina

    dominic's experience with csta's equity

    fellowship

    how dominic continues to learn and grow

    as a cs educator

    and thinking through intersectionality

    in relation to representation

    as with each of the podcasts you can

    access the show notes by clicking the

    link in the description for the app that

    you're listening to this on or simply

    going to jaredaler.com

    inside the show notes you'll find some

    links to many of the topics that we're

    discussing including some other podcasts

    that i mentioned

    or to learn more about something like

    the cst equity fellowship that we

    mentioned

    at the end of the podcast or to even

    connect with dominic on twitter or

    linkedin

    at jaredgelary.com you'll also find

    hundreds if not thousands of resources

    that are relevant to cs educators

    including free lesson plans that i

    created for boot up and some

    presentations publications etc that are

    relevant to cs educators

    all of it's free so if you enjoy it i

    just ask that you might consider sharing

    with somebody else

    and if you enjoy this particular episode

    and want to recommend a guest

    including yourself or do you like to

    potentially partner on

    some future grant collaborations feel

    free to click the contact me button on

    my website

    as i'm always interested in

    collaborating and learning from others

    but with all that being said we will now

    begin the interview with dominic

    introducing himself

    hello everyone my name is dominic

    sanders i am the current

    computer science state supervisor for

    the state of south carolina

    prior to this i was a computer science

    educator

    in nashville tennessee and i'm also a

    csta so computer science teacher

    association equity fellow

    and i'm originally from st louis

    missouri can you tell me the story of

    how you got into computer science

    education

    ironically my dad actually has a

    computer science degree but it really

    wasn't until

    probably around the sixth grade i was a

    part

    of the national science of black

    engineers so they had a pre-college

    initiative formerly known as like

    despite junior so just

    being in that program and being around

    like like-minded individuals kind of

    sparked my interest

    into the field of just like computer

    science and engineering so

    even though i was kind of exposed to it

    at home but my dad used to talk about it

    it wasn't really

    that cool because i was like no dad like

    definitely not people are gonna think

    i'm

    following your footsteps and we're total

    opposites but

    ironically i you know pursued computer

    science but yeah it wasn't until i

    really got into

    that organization and really got my feet

    wet with like programming and everything

    else that came along with it so

    and what made you decide to go into cs

    education rather than just cs

    so actually that was in college

    so i was always tutoring doing a lot of

    extracurricular

    activities i was always like being

    around people and then like everybody's

    like oh yeah you're very good at like

    explaining things

    and they're very good like because of

    you like i you know did that in math or

    because of you i thought about you

    and i really wanted now for super peter

    science so i just felt like it was like

    an

    easy um segway and then also i think the

    light bulb went off one time when i was

    at church when i had my pastor was

    talking about like

    finding your passion and he was like you

    know it's your passion when like

    you try to like steer yourself in like

    other directions and then like

    you eventually end back to like where

    your passion is because sometimes you

    don't even recognize this so

    you go on another tour another avenue

    and then

    back in it and i was like that's the

    light bulb right there so then i'm just

    stuck with it

    now i've had a lot of moments in my

    educational journey that have had like a

    profound impact on me whether it was

    positive or negative i'm curious if you

    could tell a story of

    an experience that you had in education

    that had an impact on you oh man i've

    had

    so many i think some of my favorite

    experiences i guess like changing the

    narrative

    of what a african-american male can do

    so when you think about like the field

    of education

    there's not a lot of us at the two

    percent everybody always talks about the

    two percent

    and then like when you throw in like i'm

    teaching like computer science it all

    you know makes me even that much smaller

    but then like it's seeing like

    from the first day of school

    when people find out that i'm a computer

    science teacher to like

    the end of the school year where i have

    kids that weren't

    never even thought about pursuing

    computer science or you wanted to take

    like computer science course

    to now wanting to be in the class so i

    think those are some of my

    favorite moments because a lot of them

    just don't really understand like

    how computer science is everywhere and

    computer scientists were still everyday

    people so then like i would always like

    coach tracker you see me at the

    basketball games or

    going to the football games or then like

    when we had down time when i still was a

    classroom teacher

    talking about sports they're talking

    about you know the different things that

    they like

    we're talking about we would have like

    musical debates like who's a better

    rapper who's a better singer

    just so they can see that like computer

    sciences we're still like everyday

    people

    they just think like oh computer science

    or engineering

    you're on the you know the other side of

    the planet like oh we do the same things

    you guys like i'm curious how did you

    try and actively recruit

    groups that were not represented in your

    classes that you're in so

    just as an example if you had majority

    male

    a couple of non-binary but very few

    females

    in your class how might you try and

    recruit to get

    more diversity within gender

    representation to be honest i really

    never had

    problems like that i don't know maybe

    it's because i was like the

    african-american male and i was teaching

    that so a lot of people were just you

    know so intrigued to

    be in the class and then i was one of

    those teachers that was like very

    present

    so you would see me again after games

    you would see me at the basketball games

    you would see

    me at the volleyball games and then just

    having like those casual conversations

    you know with the kids in the hallway or

    at the football game hey

    you did good but you know last week you

    told me you're gonna have five tackles

    and

    i was out there counting you know you

    maybe came up short

    you know building those different

    relationships with the students early on

    and then

    even still building those relationships

    with students that weren't in my class

    when it came time

    for students to enroll in the class i

    never really had

    like an issue with that everybody mr

    sanders i'm trying to get in your class

    is there anything you can do i was like

    i'm not the person to talk to about

    scheduling

    look i'm only offering four sections so

    you guys knew when the classes started

    hey i may run a little after school stem

    club or something like that you can

    catch me then but if you didn't sign up

    when it first started then

    unfortunately sorry catch me next year

    that reminds me a lot of jason bohr's

    response as well so he was also saying

    that he would go to the various like

    events that

    students were at and just kind of talk

    about computer science and just be

    present

    that present speech is key what about

    something that you first believe when

    you're working

    in education that you no longer believe

    so what has changed over that trajectory

    i think the biggest thing that's

    probably changed

    is like kids like really want to learn

    so like on the outside looking in if you

    have kids that have like for example

    like a behavior issue

    and you just feel like oh he's just

    acting out because you know he doesn't

    really want to be in school no majority

    of the kids actually want to be in

    school

    you just have to make sure that you're

    doing your part to like find

    the root and then once you find the root

    it's like magic

    and those were actually some of my

    favorite students to work with in the

    class they're like oh yes

    these behavior problems i'm like oh okay

    well you know send them to my class

    and then maybe after like two or three

    weeks and then they're in there and

    rocking that was like what you do

    different well i listened to

    well when i was giving them examples i

    showed them that i cared about them i

    showed them that you know i believed in

    them not only was i doing that when i

    was giving

    the one-on-one instruction i'm talking

    to him

    making sure that he understands what's

    going on i'm also giving him

    examples that i know he can relate to i

    know he loves football

    i know he loves rapping like these are

    different things he loves soccer if he

    loves food

    so like on a high level i'm just giving

    hey okay we're

    working on project 4.4 and as i'm

    walking around

    hey in your project relate yours to

    football

    think about the different positions if

    it's a chick finger

    if it's making something dealing with

    like food think about those different

    things and that was kind of how i was

    able to

    like relate the message and get those

    students out for the home i think it

    always comes back to

    knowing your kid and then figuring out

    what computer science

    really means to them like i said that

    really goes a long way yeah especially

    if it's a mandatory class

    so like in the k-8 school that i was in

    everyone was required to attend it

    and because of that i couldn't assume

    buy-in so if it's an elective class i

    could assume oh well you chose to be

    here

    you're taking part of this elective

    class but when everyone was

    forced to be in it there were kids who

    were just like what's the point of this

    and so starting with that interest and

    starting with well what

    do you actually care about and how could

    we explore that through coding and

    computer science

    and when the principal and assistant

    principal come into my room they'd be

    like how did you

    get them to like actually do work it's

    like well we started with what they care

    about what do you feel is holding back

    educators or the field what can we

    actually do about it to be honest i

    think

    there is still this great area in

    regards to what computer science is and

    what computer science isn't

    for example like here in south carolina

    like one of the things just like all my

    to-do list

    like adopting like a universal like

    definition of actually what like

    computer science is

    and then also making sure that they

    understand that like

    computer science is number one like not

    going anywhere

    and computer science is like intertwined

    in so many things

    so i think that also comes with that

    like exposure piece when you think about

    like computer science because everybody

    just

    thinks oh everybody's just coding coding

    coding but yeah computer science even

    though people are coding

    computer science is based on the back

    end of a lot of these

    like real world forms that we're having

    so before

    you know you did it this way but because

    of now computer science now you're able

    to do you know x y and z and all those

    different things

    so when i was reading your cst equity

    fellows bio

    i saw that you had a near a favorite

    quote of yours and so the quote is

    you can be what you can't see so i'm

    curious why is that one of your favorite

    quotes

    i'm a firm believer of that because it's

    hard sometimes

    like depending on like where kids like

    grow up or where you're exposed to

    for them to like reach for the stars if

    you don't have like that champion or

    have somebody

    to you know look up to that looks like

    you or you can

    relate to so i think for me like that

    was another reason why i went

    into education because like you always

    hear oh well

    there's not a lot of african-american

    men that are pursuing teaching

    or when you're looking at the minority

    numbers the minority numbers

    to get kids to computer science and

    engineering they suck but nobody ever

    talks about

    like you can give the kids resources

    resource resources if they don't have

    someone

    that they can relate to that you know

    has some of the same struggles or they

    can really you know

    hang on to the numbers still going to

    stay the same so it's all about

    that positive role model just like i

    said i was going basketball games

    football games

    chess cross i was going to everything

    even when i was coaching track

    i'm a little older than the kids i may

    not run you know all the 400s with you

    but i'll still get out there

    and you know run a few with you because

    then over the years my kids will be like

    oh yeah well

    in practice like mr sanders oh he's

    going to push us because when we're at

    the meet

    that's the mind frame that we have like

    if mr sanders catches us it doesn't

    count if i

    do bad thing mr sam's gonna be like oh

    yeah that didn't count that didn't count

    so running again that's all about you

    know just like that exposure piece and

    just being like that positive role model

    i think that goes a long way when you

    have somebody hey

    i do actually know an engineer i

    actually do know a computer science

    i actually do know a doctor or a lawyer

    so yeah so

    it gets especially complicated when we

    think about the various

    intersectionalities and whatnot so i'm

    curious

    how does that quote kind of inform your

    own

    approach in cs education by now it's

    just really like just embedded

    in my brain so when i'm making those

    decisions i'm thinking about

    like all the students and then i also

    love the quote like i'm as strong as my

    weakest

    link so making sure that like hey now

    that i'm in this

    supervisor role this county may have all

    the resources

    but if this county doesn't have no

    resources to get them over the finish

    line

    the chain is still broke that's kind of

    how i you know approach things like even

    when i'm talking like different like

    curriculum providers hey i know you're

    sure very aware of this like pandemic so

    how accessible is your curriculum on a

    smartphone

    it doesn't have to be the best but i

    know that some kids do not have

    them all they do is have a cell phone so

    can they still access it

    on you know a mobile phone or stuff like

    that so i try to think of everything

    as this holistic approach i also have

    like

    pictures on my desk of like different

    students that i've met

    over the years and that also kind of

    keeps me like

    in that mind frame because i worked at

    schools where kids were

    taking a bus to get to school and it

    wasn't like the regular bus they're

    actually taking like the city bus

    they're coming 40 and 50 minutes you

    know

    just to get to school then take another

    how can i make computer science

    equitable for this child how can i make

    it equitable for this person how can i

    make it evil for

    the individuals in the rural areas how

    can i make it equitable for the

    individuals that are at schools that

    really want to learn computer science

    but

    unfortunately their school doesn't have

    all the resources so what am i

    going to do to make sure that those kids

    still have a fair chance at pursuing

    just computer science education as a

    whole

    so how did that lead to founding the

    exposure stem

    again just tying back to the lack of

    african-american males in like the

    school system and then like computer

    science

    so i knew that i was only one person and

    then of course

    being in the school setting you all know

    that there are different like

    i guess like duels and don'ts like rules

    and regulations as far as like

    curriculum and how things need to be

    taught and

    things that you have to get done in the

    school year so like starting that was

    like my way

    of kind of like removing that boundary

    and trying to reach

    as many students as i possibly could if

    you were to give like

    the elevator pitch what is exposure stem

    so it's a stem-based non-profit and it's

    just to

    equip empower and expose underserved

    students to pursue

    fields of stem and through your

    experiences like

    working through exposure stem how's that

    kind of informed your own

    understandings of cs education i feel

    like it's helped me

    understand more on like the needs

    and like the needs of the students and

    also like

    the needs of like parents because a lot

    of parents know that computer science is

    here

    but they don't know like how do i get my

    kid connected not only you have to get

    the kid connected

    how can you also support the parent in

    order to get the kid connected because

    again like parents

    know that like computer science and

    engineering is here but like we're not

    taking out the time to say hey

    this is what it is these are the

    different languages these are the

    different resources that we have

    these are the different scholarship

    opportunities it helps because

    of course even though there are teachers

    you also

    want to get that parent buying because

    that parent buy-in is you know crucial

    as well too to make sure that you're

    getting those desired results that you

    want to achieve yeah and having

    that ability to speak to somebody who

    can like guide in some way

    like that was something that i had seen

    missing for a lot of students like hey

    if you really want to be able to do

    a b or c you need to take a look at the

    steps x y and z in order to get there

    and just having somebody who's been

    there done that it's very beneficial

    so i'm curious with your new position as

    a cs state supervisor for south carolina

    like how do you hope to impact students

    and teachers in south carolina

    so i'm actually working on that now i

    know one big piece

    is professional development in regards

    to the teachers

    making sure that they feel supported in

    computer science

    so like my slogan is actually a css key

    and then of course we have the cs for sc

    but like the key

    actually stands for like kindle equity

    in you like when you think of like

    kindle my goal is to of course it's not

    like the amazon can look like i know

    when people hear that word that's the

    first thing that

    comes up but just like kindling like

    that spark

    that you will understand like what

    computer science is and like how

    computer science can make your life

    easier

    so my goal is to try to kindle that

    spark earlier

    so of course hey kindergarten you know

    all the way up making sure that

    everybody is explosive that kindling

    piece

    and then the e stands for like equity we

    all know about

    you know just making sure that we're

    making curriculum and decisions that are

    equitable for all

    and then the you is that's just my way

    of saying like

    even though i'm the state supervisor

    this is getting everyone across the

    finish line

    getting computer science out there this

    is not just a dominic

    initiative it's going to take all of us

    so the parents the teachers the students

    the custodians the billboards our

    community partners

    the government it's going to take all of

    us if we really want

    to produce these numbers here in south

    carolina so it's not just the

    oh yeah hey this is no this is not my

    it's all of us

    yeah so i recently read a k-por csta

    joint report on like the status of

    cs teachers across the nation and so one

    of the interesting stats i forget what

    it was but it was

    like maybe 40ish percent of teachers

    didn't believe that

    we needed to talk about equity in cs

    classes

    so i'm happy to hear that it's a large

    part of the three pieces that you're

    talking about

    i'm wondering what recommendations could

    you give to cs educators

    around equity and inclusion if they

    haven't checked out anything that the k4

    center is doing

    i read a lot of their findings um their

    very informative and then also

    if you aren't involved with csta make

    sure you get involved

    with csta csta they are amazing i'm not

    saying that just because i'm an equity

    fellow for them but

    they have so many different pdes

    probably every two weeks it seems like

    because they're always putting on

    different

    events to help you understand the

    purpose

    of equity whether you feel like you're

    an equity champion or don't know

    anything about equity they have

    different workshops to help you

    navigate that journey and then even if

    you just want curriculum help or

    you know just how to be a better

    computer science teacher and of course

    you also get the chance to

    interact and network with other cs

    teachers which is

    so beneficial because like i said i was

    a former computer science classroom so

    unfortunately there are a lot of pd

    sessions that happen throughout the

    school year that

    cs teachers are just cte teachers in

    general have to go to

    and you're like why am i in here like

    this doesn't pertain to

    anything relevant to my classroom so

    yeah csta

    they do a very good job of like you're

    able to meet those teachers then you're

    like oh i may only be the only

    cs teacher in my school or my network

    but i'm not alone because this is the

    same feature that somebody in california

    is having

    same thing somebody in oakland is having

    so it's not just me thinking you know

    i'm crazy or i'm just on the islands

    other teachers that are going through

    what you're going through or have

    already went through and hey you don't

    have to go through it by yourself these

    are different resources i use to get

    over it and

    make it work so yeah and so you

    mentioned the equity in action

    fellows so at the summit i believe you

    were

    if i remember correctly engaging in an

    interview with kamau bob

    and so you're a big part of the summit

    itself so people haven't been to it i

    highly recommend it it was really good

    but

    i'm curious how did you get involved

    with the summit being a fellow so if

    teachers are like okay that sounds great

    but

    what do i need to do in order to

    actually become an equity fellow yeah

    so at the end i'm sure i'll have like my

    linkedin profile and twitter handles and

    all that

    but then i'll just check out the csta

    equity

    website i believe the applications will

    be going out

    in june i encourage everyone to apply to

    be honest for me

    i really didn't know what to expect when

    you're talking about like your long

    professional development for like cs

    i didn't know what to expect but what i

    can tell you it's been like

    life-changing just to be around so many

    like-minded individuals when we do meet

    it doesn't even feel like that we're

    meeting anymore it's more just like

    a family thing so like even when i was

    applying for the job here

    i was like well i don't know if i should

    apply that like oh no you're going to

    apply

    give me the call like one of my good

    friends in there lily's just like if you

    need help

    i will help you through the application

    then when i made the final round

    i actually called some of the equity

    fellows was like hey this is what

    they're asking me to do

    who you know has experience was like oh

    yeah i can help you with this and then

    for this part you can get help from this

    person this part

    so it's been very beneficial then even

    with my transition or some of them i

    talked to all the time hey

    how's the boot do you need anything let

    me know how i can support i know you

    still have

    i know you're adjusting to your new job

    but you also have your equity fellow

    commitments if there's anything i can

    help you you

    know to speed up that process let me

    know so there's they have been like i

    said a tremendous

    support so again i would encourage

    anyone to apply for life again

    for me i was hesitant to apply just

    because i really didn't know what i'm

    getting myself

    into but i am very grateful that i did

    that's awesome so if you're to look

    ahead like if we were to fast forward

    like five years from now

    and you're to think of like just a

    typical computer science class in south

    carolina

    if somebody will walk into that class

    like and just observe what was going on

    what do you hope that people would see

    hear or experience yeah so i would hope

    that

    number one like it's very like

    student-driven learning so like students

    are doing

    the heavy lifting and then of course

    collaboration

    also i would love to see like curriculum

    that is like

    made for the students so when you're

    walking in if you are

    from like south carolina or even if

    you're not from south carolina you'll be

    like you would be able to see different

    things

    that represent like south carolina or

    represent like the different things like

    that the kids like so if you go hey what

    are you working on this could be i

    should be able to tell you

    hey my name is john and this is my

    mobile app

    my mobile app tracks the amount of times

    my favorite soccer player you know has

    hit

    or missed a goal something like that and

    it's like i picked this because

    i love soccer or you go somebody else

    well i made a baking app because you

    know i love to bake or somebody hey this

    is my app because

    i know the importance of computer

    science and i want to

    go to cosmetology school i want to be a

    barber so my app is centered around

    me going to barber school or something

    like that so that's

    my goal for it this is a generalization

    but most of the teachers that i've seen

    who are kind of resistant to that

    approach tend to be

    older teachers and they've gone through

    more traditional like everybody's doing

    the same thing going at the same pace

    at the same time but the way that you

    described it really resonates with my

    own

    practices in the classroom what we do

    with boot up and our professional

    development

    what i recommend for any educators make

    it interest driven make it so that is

    basically one to one in terms of if

    there's 30 kids in the class they could

    be working on 30 different projects but

    how do you

    help teachers see the benefit or move

    away from something they may have

    done for many years or decades so

    i always tie it back to like meeting the

    teacher like where they are

    i know sometimes like we throw things at

    them

    and then of course if you're an ulti

    sometimes that does make you kind of

    like fearful of what's to come

    but like kind of do it in like

    increments of baby steps so for example

    if your school already knows that like

    eventually this is going to be like

    their next computer science teacher so

    i'm just saying the next year hey we're

    going to be the new computer science

    teacher and they have to

    completely learn it i started throwing

    like many lessons in there so hey

    once a month i would love to see you

    incorporate computer science

    into what you're already teaching and

    then that once a month

    may turn into once every two weeks and

    that once every two weeks may turn into

    you know

    mini lessons or a mini unit and then

    just build your way up to instead of

    just throwing some of those teachers

    that aren't comfortable with computer

    science they're like you want me to do

    what like

    i don't even know how to code myself or

    i don't understand computer science

    myself and now you want me to be like

    the subject matter

    expert on it like i said just meeting

    the teachers where they are yeah it

    seems like a very reasonable

    and scaffolded approach for like

    developing that ability to like

    facilitate

    multiple projects simultaneously and i

    got that really from my mom because like

    she doesn't really like computers that

    much so like when i used to have like

    sure how to do things on the computer

    i grew up with technology so it's

    nothing for me to turn on the computer

    and you know go here here here or here

    so he was like okay mom i understand i

    am moving fast so let me slow it down

    for you

    first day you know we're just gonna

    practice on this and then you know you

    familiarize yourself

    are you comfortable with this all right

    now you're comfortable going on the

    internet

    let me show you how to check your email

    once you figure out how to check your

    email okay this is how you're gonna

    respond

    this is what cc stands for this is what

    bcc stands for

    so just like different things like that

    but over time you know now she's expert

    at so what about for developing your own

    expertise like how do you

    practice or iterate on your own

    abilities either as an educator

    or in computer science three so i used

    to have my students do it all the time

    i'm always hitting like typing in like

    computer science

    or like computer science education or

    like computer science k-12

    and then just hit like the news tab

    that's the one way

    i like to stay impressed on things that

    are happening and then of course

    like connecting with individuals on

    linkedin linkedin has been very helpful

    figure out like okay these are like the

    who's who in like a precise education

    these are people you need to follow

    they're always posting like different

    things

    and of course being a part of like

    different computer science

    organizations like csta where you're

    doing things at your local level or a

    national level

    and of course like seeking out

    professional development because of

    course sometimes depending on what

    school you're in your school's not going

    to give you

    that professional development that you

    really need so sometimes you actually do

    have to

    take it out so that if that's you

    joining these different organizations or

    even it can be as simple as you

    joining facebook groups that i wish i

    would have known about i think it's the

    cs educators on facebook

    that may not be right but there's a

    computer science facebook group

    and they are always posting a ton of

    resources and i was like where was this

    when i was in my first year of teaching

    design because i was and i was like uh

    i was doing the best i could but then i

    was like man if i would have known you

    know

    that there was a facebook group of all

    the president educators there were a lot

    of people in there going through the

    same things i went through or

    other people that have already went

    through it and i'm trying to think of

    like the scope and sequence and like the

    computer science trajectory from the

    high school or

    somebody else has already done those

    like utilizing those different resources

    and again

    i was just out there like oh okay well

    so i've had the privilege of having some

    excellent mentors throughout my life in

    a variety of different

    areas and one of the things that has

    been really beneficial about that kind

    of relationship

    is they're able to see areas that are

    opportunities for growth that i might

    not

    be able to see when reflecting on my own

    or looking in the mirror

    so one of the hard things about being a

    cs educator though is you might be the

    only person in your school or in your

    district who really knows much

    about the field and knows anything in

    that area so you can't really find that

    mentor who might be like

    in the room next door who can be like

    hey i think you could really work on a b

    or c

    and like here are some resources to help

    with that so how do you

    kind of find your own growth

    opportunities or trajectories to go down

    with your own

    personal professional development so i

    feel like i'm

    very like in tune with myself i have

    like sticky notes

    i write sticky notes all the time and

    then i also always write in like my

    notebook so

    i'm firmly always having like goals and

    plans so

    of course i have like from long term

    like three year goals five year goals

    so that's kind of like how i like assess

    things but like even when i was in the

    classroom

    at the end of the lesson like as a

    teacher you pretty much know like

    what you did well and like where you

    kind of like struggled at

    so then like you're just taking notes on

    that hey i need

    help with leasing the task or i need

    help you know

    getting them across this business i need

    help addressing

    i felt like you know i talked about a

    conditional statement as well

    but maybe i didn't and then when you see

    the next ticket data and it shows that

    you didn't

    okay so then when you are like in these

    different facebook groups or you do go

    with your mentors

    hey i need help with this and then of

    course you know man you got the power of

    zoom you know

    ways to record your lessons and let

    somebody else you know listen to it and

    then be like okay yeah

    this is what i did these are the

    different tips that i can share with you

    on how this is how i release my students

    to test this how i check for

    misconceptions and stuff like that

    yeah that makes sense so education is

    one of the fields that has a really high

    burnout rate

    and i'm curious how you have been able

    to kind of like

    prevent that burnout and work through

    the pressures and demands of working in

    the field of education

    so i enjoy running i'm a part of black

    men run there was a little group

    that i used to run with weekly again i

    just moved here to south carolina so

    i'll be doing that shortly i also enjoy

    music but then

    for me what also helps prevent like

    burnout i always

    like think about my student like i said

    i have like pictures of my students on

    the desk

    that's i guess always thinking about

    like my why like why i signed up

    for this like in the first place i know

    there's going to be like

    challenging times and you know like hard

    trials and tribulations but i always

    think about the student that you know

    looked up to me as brother

    uncle you know dad whatever it was like

    what would they want me to do in this

    situation think about the student that

    was

    busting 30 or 40 miles just to have a

    seat in my classroom

    just so they can you know make a better

    opportunity for themselves and their

    family

    i always try to like travel it back to

    my why

    and then that kind of like keeps me

    grounded

    and then another thing that kind of like

    motivates me is like my grandmother

    she always talked about like the

    importance of education

    and then that like she unfortunately had

    to stop in like middle school

    that's always like my growing piece to

    like keep going and remember that like

    the people before me like didn't get a

    chance to

    keep going because they had to so like

    let me make sure that i'm creating

    practices and policies to make sure

    that from kindergarten through 12th

    grade if this is what you want to do if

    this computer science

    is you know your path or whatever your

    path is in this realm

    is make sure that i'm creating spaces

    and opportunities for you to

    succeed and get across the finish line

    yeah lots of snaps for that answer

    thank you i really appreciate that no

    problem so

    knowing that you're also working on your

    doctorate and

    research informs your own practices what

    are some gaps in research that you

    really wish that

    there was more research on to kind of

    inform your own understandings or your

    own practices

    so i think one of the biggest things

    like when you're just thinking about

    i love more research which i'm sure

    it'll come like eventually but then when

    you think about like african-american

    male

    in like stem and like how that like

    piece of like exposure

    helps students like long term so maybe

    there's a role model like

    what role does like african-american men

    in like k-12 education play to

    students for going to post-secondary

    yeah it'd be also interesting to explore

    that

    within the different groups in k-12 so

    like

    primary versus secondary schools and i

    say that because like when i was

    teaching

    in my first district at several of the

    schools that i was teaching at i was the

    only

    male presenting individual who was a

    teacher at the school

    and everybody else was not granted i'm

    non-binary but like

    either way students knew me as like mr

    o'leary like this

    they typically refer to me as but then

    when you go into like high school it

    tends to be

    more men who are in those situations

    so be interesting to see like how that

    compares in terms of the exposure and

    representation

    what is something that you're currently

    working on that you could use some help

    with so if there is somebody who is

    listening to this they could potentially

    provide a solution to something that

    you would like some assistance with what

    would that thing be

    probably the biggest thing right now is

    so pretty soon

    i'll actually be conducting like

    listening towards to figure out like

    what's been going well in the state of

    what hasn't been going well in the state

    as far as like community partners are

    concerned like what do you think

    of like k-12 computer science in south

    carolina looks like

    even if you're on the outside so you may

    not even be a

    partner in the state yet but you can

    always come aboard

    that's probably like the biggest thing

    as i'm developing like policy so i know

    one of my

    jobs is also to create a state plan in

    regards to like what

    k12 cs looks like so giving me their

    feedback on different things that

    are maybe going on in industry or going

    on you know in different states which is

    that's probably the biggest thing right

    now like i said just a big fight

    listening to herself

    i'm all ears for i guess avenues or

    perspectives because i'm trying to bring

    everybody

    the table again the model with cs is key

    so

    the kindling piece the equity piece and

    the you piece

    so tying all that together to really

    make it this all one cohesive unit

    at the end when you think about like in

    the

    upcoming years like when you see like

    the different things that like south

    carolina has done it's not going to be

    like i've done that

    no we've done that it took all of us

    we've done that

    yeah i like that and if anyone who's

    listening to this at the end we'll make

    sure that

    dominic shares where to be able to

    connect with him so what questions do

    you have for myself for for the field at

    large

    yeah where do you feel are the gaps in

    computer science education currently

    there are many from my perspective so

    we are starting to fill some of the gaps

    like when

    i first was introduced into computer

    science it was in high school and so it

    was like

    an ap course and it was the only course

    that was offered it was the first time

    they offered it

    my junior year before that i didn't have

    any opportunity to do that so one of the

    nice things is over the last like decade

    or so

    it's become more common in the

    elementary and middle school space to

    have cs in there however one of the gaps

    that i'm seeing is

    cs is presented as a future job

    opportunity

    and that's the majority of the discourse

    out there which is great

    because there are many jobs but not

    everyone wants to go in to see us for a

    job

    so like you could engage in cs for fun

    like making your own apps or

    tinkering with your own hardware and

    software at home to be able to do

    whatever you want or like myself i

    proposed to my wife by

    modding the game minecraft so i changed

    the code and made it so that she could

    go on an adventure

    and craft a circle of hearts it created

    a box ring and then i actually proposed

    them per person

    that was for fun for leisure et cetera

    and i think that is a gap that is often

    not discussed because money isn't

    necessarily tied to it

    so if we really do think that cs is for

    all but not everyone is going to get a

    degree in cs or pursue a career in cs

    then we need to talk about okay well how

    can you use computer science outside of

    just getting a job again nothing wrong

    with getting a job in cs i think it's

    amazing

    wonderful opportunities but that to me

    is like one of those big

    gaps that i don't think we're talking

    about enough

    but then there are also many other gaps

    in terms of like representation

    there's gaps in terms of like what kinds

    of courses are offered and where

    and when and like that has a huge impact

    on students but like

    that was just kind of my my bigger

    discourse response that's right no that

    makes complete sense

    if i were to flip the question on to

    yourself how would you respond to it

    well yeah i definitely agree with a lot

    that you said

    like some of the biggest gaps it's like

    the access to computer science education

    of course the representation piece as

    well those are

    the bigger things and then just another

    big piece

    that's like missing in it is also it's

    like

    everyone won't major in computer science

    for a job so just figuring out like if

    we are really

    true to like cs for all like what does

    computer science for

    all like actually look like because we

    all know that

    all means like everyone is not going to

    take pick up computer science as

    a major which is fine but if it's all

    like figuring out

    the all means how does that computer

    science connect to you and i think we

    need to do a better job basically

    how it impacts you to kind of like

    elaborate on the discussion on

    representation

    how do we expand upon the

    current small amount of representation

    that is evident within the field

    and also take into account the different

    intersectionalities with it

    so like there's many more combinations

    of various identities that are often not

    discussed and we tend to focus on like

    broad categories in isolation rather

    than talking about

    the intersections of those categories so

    for example i'm a white individual so

    that is one broad category but i'm also

    a non-binary individual and so that is a

    marginalized category

    or underrepresented and that

    intersection of the two is something

    that

    could be explored more and discussed but

    it's often

    separate so i'm either identified as

    white or i'm identified as non-binary

    not necessarily the combination of the

    two and those are just two of many

    things that make up the multiplicity

    that is myself so like i'm curious

    how do we kind of talk about and expand

    representation

    while taking into account that that

    complexity yeah so

    i think it all goes back to like the

    exposure piece and then like when people

    do have like

    a seat at the table like doing

    the best that they can to i guess like

    make sure others will end up you know

    like having to see at the table so

    also when you think about like the

    different forms and stuff

    we all know we are different but if you

    don't have anyone

    that you're willing to give a chance to

    have us at the table then you won't know

    what

    is behind you so it all goes back to i'm

    telling you earlier like i'm as strong

    as my weakest link of course there's

    going to be other african-american

    men behind me that want to pursue

    computer science but if they've never

    seen one if they've never heard one

    they won't know so like you're not

    giving a white

    non-binary the space then others

    won't know like you exist and like

    there's someone else out there

    that is them so yeah that makes sense

    so where might people go to connect with

    you and the organizations that you work

    with

    yeah so linkedin i'm pretty active on

    linkedin

    dominic sanders and then my twitter

    is one underscore d

    underscore sanders i'm not as active as

    i used to be on twitter but just bear

    with me because i'm still in my first 30

    days of my new job

    like after i get that you know situated

    in

    my scheduling i'll be a lot more active

    and then

    from those two places you'll be able to

    see like the different things that

    are like happening within like south

    carolina

    like on the national scale of course i

    always promote like different things

    from like cstx i'm equity fellow

    you'll be able to see like what's really

    happening

    in the cs world and then we can connect

    from there

    and with that that concludes this week's

    episode of the cska podcast

    if you haven't been to my website yet

    make sure you check out jrdelirie.com i

    guarantee you there's

    a lot of resources that you will find

    useful for the cs classes that you are

    working with

    including links to the free curriculum

    that i create for boot up professional

    development which you can find at boot

    up pd.org

    stay tuned next week for another

    unpacking scholarship episode and two

    weeks for now for another interview

    i hope you're all staying safe and are

    having a wonderful week

Guest Bio

Dominick Sanders is currently the Computer Science Supervisor for the state of South Carolina Education Department. In this role, he is responsible for k-12 computer science education programs and professional development across the state. As a former computer science teacher and a national leader, he brings a wealth of knowledge and experience to share with the education sector. As a teacher one his proudest moments as a teacher was during the 2019-2020 school year. For the Advanced Placement Computer Science exam, he helped his school secure a 70.8% pass rate. More scholars passed the exam and had an overall higher average score than the state of Tennessee. Additionally, female, black and latinx scholars had a higher passing rate than the state and global average.

His true passion is helping others and giving back by inspiring and encouraging as many underserved students as he possibly can. One of his favorite quotes is “You can be what you can’t see. ”Keeping that quote in mind, in 2019 he founded Xposure STEM. Xposure STEM is a nonprofit organization designed to empower, expose, and equip underserved boys and girls to become leading contributors to the world of Science, Technology, Engineering and Math.

Dominick is currently a doctoral student at Vanderbilt University studying educational leadership and public policy. He holds a Master’s degree from Relay Graduate School for Education and a B.S. in Computer Science from Jackson State University.

He is also currently a Computer Science Teachers Association (CSTA) Equity Fellow. In his free time, he enjoys cycling, running with the Black Men Run group and cooking for family and friends.


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