Making Meaningful Connections with Jean Ryoo

In this interview with Jean Ryoo, we discuss equity as an evolving idea, what an ideal CS class looks like, collaborating and learning through research-practitioner partnerships (RPPs), the importance of examining our own biases, the importance of community, working through burnout/depression/anxiety, helping students through depression and suicidal ideation, the problems with whitewashing in education, and so much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast

    my name is jared o'leary each episode of

    this podcast alternates between an

    episode where i

    unpack some scholarship in relation to

    computer science education

    and episodes where i interview a guest

    or multiple guests

    in this particular episode i am

    interviewing jean rue we discuss equity

    as an evolving idea

    what an ideal computer science class

    looks like collaborating and learning

    through research practitioner

    partnerships also known as rpps

    the importance of examining our own

    biases the importance of community

    working through burnout depression and

    anxiety and on that topic we also

    discuss

    how to help students through depression

    and suicidal ideation

    which by the way i know are very

    difficult topics to discuss and i really

    appreciate gene's

    vulnerability in these conversations and

    hope they are helpful for you

    and these students that you work with

    then our conversation actually moves

    into a discussion on some of the

    problems with whitewashing that goes on

    in education

    and so many more topics this was a

    wonderful interview with gene and i

    really hope you enjoy it if you do

    i hope that you consider sharing with

    somebody else who might be able to

    benefit from the wonderful conversation

    that i had with jean

    which by the way we do mention many

    different resources and podcasts and

    things like that so if you go to the

    show notes which you can find in the app

    that you're listening to this on

    clicking the link in the description or

    simply going to geritolia.com

    you'll find a lot of resources in the

    show notes as well as on the website

    but with all that being said i hope you

    enjoyed this interview and it will now

    begin with an introduction by jean

    hi everyone so excited to be here with

    you today my name is jean rue

    and i'm the director of research of the

    ucla computer science equity project

    you tell me the story of how you became

    interested in researching computer

    science education

    the reason why i got into computer

    science education in particular

    is not because i have a background in

    computer science but

    just the reality that computer science

    education is a window into the way

    inequality

    exists and is reproduced in public

    education

    so for me that was sort of like the

    initial hook right because prior to

    my work in computer science education

    research i was

    a middle and high school teacher in

    social studies in english

    what originally drew me towards that was

    sort of that

    opportunity to think critically about

    the world around us

    and to do that in collaboration with

    students right that

    it wasn't like here i'm going to teach

    you a bunch of dates to memorize

    and like what happened on those dates

    and i'm going to quiz you but rather

    like

    hey let's think about history let's

    think about like sociology like why is

    it that

    our world is structured the way it is

    and how is it that power

    ends up being distributed and how is it

    that we have these specific values and

    ideas about who should be doing what

    and so i feel like those same things

    bubble up

    in computer science education when we

    really look deeply at

    why is it that only a certain small

    percentage of students

    have access to quality computer science

    education

    why is it that when we look at the field

    of computing it continues to be male

    dominated and dominated by

    specifically white men and certain asian

    men

    not all asian types of asian which of

    course asian is such a huge

    and very diverse community of people but

    i think that that was sort of originally

    what got me interested

    so i was like wow look at this field and

    i was particularly inspired by jane

    margolista's book

    stuck in the shallow end because it so

    clearly

    outlined the ways that institutional

    racism and sexism

    and class oppression were getting you

    know

    built into computer science education

    on the pathway towards computing careers

    but on top of that as i began to learn

    more

    i was also really drawn to the

    opportunity that computer science

    creates

    for us to rethink and totally reform

    education

    because since computer science is such

    this like new world

    in the world of education right it's a

    new subject matter even though computer

    science has existed for many decades

    it's still such a new and budding and

    fresh thing

    in public schools and the world of tech

    is

    still considered this like the space for

    innovation

    the space for thinking about the world

    in a different way the space to like i

    kind of hate this term but disrupt right

    disrupt what we've come to think is

    normal

    and so in that same regard even though

    computer science education

    has been reproducing the same

    inequalities that we've been seeing

    in other fields like math or science at

    the same time

    it's this world where we believe

    there's room for completely new ways of

    thinking

    and it's in that area of hope that i

    really

    um i'm excited to work because i think

    it gives us an opportunity to say

    hey you don't have to shape curricula or

    pedagogical practice

    in the traditional ways that we've been

    taught

    we can actually think outside the box

    with this completely

    new and innovative field so let's do

    that

    and make our schools better places and

    not just in this world of computer

    science but if we try it out in this

    world of computer science

    maybe that can filter into the ways that

    we teach math or these the ways that we

    teach other subjects

    that aren't particularly humanizing or

    liberating

    for our youth yeah that really resonates

    one of the reasons why i wanted to have

    you on the show is because like in our

    prior conversation they're just like

    okay this is wonderful it's very much in

    alignment with

    my own thinking and whatnot but i'm

    curious when you first began working in

    education

    what was something that you believe that

    you no longer believe that has now

    since changed something that i used to

    believe

    is that equity was a place that we could

    get to

    like you know like utopia and that'll be

    that i no longer believe that

    not because i've become a total like

    cynic or pessimist

    because i do think that we can work

    towards it but rather

    i think that equity is an ever evolving

    and changing

    concept and idea because we as humans

    are always

    constantly evolving and changing and

    growing so the things that

    i personally saw as like a goal for what

    i think

    teaching and learning should move

    towards 10 years ago

    same

    now my idea and definition of equity is

    different and i think that that's a good

    thing

    and that the more that we really

    examine how we're thinking about justice

    and how we're thinking about

    how we do right by our students and our

    communities

    the more we'll see that there's always

    something else that we can improve on

    and keep changing

    which means kind of these incremental

    shifts

    towards a more humanizing and better

    world

    i really do believe that we can continue

    to get better and better

    but i never want to become complacent

    and think that we've

    reached the best possible i guess is

    what's changed in my perspective

    yeah that makes a lot of sense i like

    the idea of equity just continually

    evolving and changing in context and the

    times and whatnot

    let's say there was like the ideal cs

    classroom

    if you were to walk into that what would

    you see hear or experience

    i think for sure the educator wouldn't

    just be at the front of the room

    lecturing

    i think that that's kind of a given no

    no like banking education approach

    i think that students and educator

    would be seated in a way that doesn't

    feel like

    just strict rose but there's space for

    movement and kind of like getting up and

    talking to another person across the

    room about an idea

    sharing like most likely i guess that

    means we're not on desktops but

    we're probably on like laptops or

    sometimes no computer at all but like

    really

    being able to move around and show like

    this is what i'm working on what do you

    think oh that's cool i would suggest you

    try this

    but what do you think of my thing and

    you give me input really that sort of

    interactivity and support of creativity

    in a way that also like builds community

    i think that people would be really

    engaged maybe there'd even be like

    music playing maybe you know i think the

    space would also be beautiful

    it wouldn't be you know fluorescent

    lights and

    white boards i think for example my

    teacher partners classroom

    miss alicia morris who teaches in los

    angeles unified school district

    and she has all of these different

    corners of her room where there are

    these

    beautiful old machines like

    early apples early like pcs

    the interior parts and not only

    computers she's all she also teaches

    fashion so there's also like an old

    sewing machine

    and she has this wall of these like

    anything from like

    wired magazine to like vogue to like

    and just that also represent different

    people

    and cultures and communities you know

    it's not like just white faces right

    and it's not just about computer science

    it kind of

    computer science and its overlap and

    everything in the world and

    there's plants and there's like there's

    lamps

    that have warm light it's not just the

    usual fluorescent lights on the ceiling

    it's

    the center table is like this heavy

    large wood table that has chairs around

    it

    that her fashion students embroidered

    like or reupholstered rather i should

    say

    you know there's a beautiful rug and the

    other tables where students are sitting

    are also

    organized in groups and students don't

    just have their one seat all the time

    like maybe the beginning of the school

    year but

    it's something that also shifts and

    evolves as

    you know students figure out who they

    want to work with and who they work well

    with and they're productive

    i think also the way it would sound is a

    lot of conversation and

    not just the teacher's voice again but

    also conversation

    not only about like programming language

    but actual discussion and question

    and sharing of personal beliefs

    and having open debate about

    real issues of ethics social

    responsibility

    questions of how is this computing tool

    that we're thinking about or creating

    impacting our communities and our

    families or us

    i think that should be baked into almost

    every creative

    computer science lesson where students

    are creating an artifact

    or analyzing an artifact that's been

    created where the questions

    raised are not just how do we make this

    work more efficiently and how does we

    make this

    app more beautiful but also what is the

    experience of

    someone who's visually disabled with

    this app

    what can you do to make it accessible

    what is the experience

    how the experience of you know your

    abuela

    who's like in her 70s and doesn't speak

    english well

    what is her experience going to be with

    this app compared to

    like a 17 year old asian boy

    you know and why does that matter and

    what are the challenges that

    arise and what does it mean for us to

    have the power to be the creators

    making these decisions what

    responsibility do we have to others to

    be thinking about our power as we make

    these creations with computer science

    yeah if i were to kind of like

    rephrase what you just said into one

    word for me

    it sounds like connection is a big part

    of

    your ideal computer science-based

    connection with each other in terms of

    kids communicating working with each

    other in dialogue connection with

    actual artifacts that have an impact on

    the world

    in the moment and in the past whether

    it's like a new or an older device and

    being able to connect with that but then

    also connection with the community

    outside of the walls of the classroom

    or the space in which kids are learning

    within that i'm curious

    like how would you encourage

    teachers to make those connections so

    it's not just this abstract thing that

    you're learning that's only relevant

    within that confined

    space but is applicable and meaningful

    and has some kind of an impact in the

    communities in which kids live

    i think that's a beautiful question and

    we should be designing more curriculum

    professional development

    towards that exact thing first of all

    to have any connection at all requires

    educators

    and students to really get to know one

    another in a two-way street right

    so i think that's something we need more

    professional development on

    you know like what are the social skills

    what are like the you know the practices

    necessary

    and how do we make sure to really

    memorize all of our students names

    because i know there are lots of

    teachers who they don't end up

    remembering all their students names

    even halfway through the school year

    right

    why do we make that a priority and that

    first step

    is necessary because without that you

    don't really

    get to understand your students their

    interests their passions their needs and

    then how to connect to those

    nor do you really understand their

    communities and the community around the

    school

    unless you really get to know students

    and end up spending time with

    you know going to their sports games or

    going to their music performances you

    know

    and really getting to see how they are

    outside of your classroom

    i think that also means getting to know

    what are the outside community

    organizations they're involved with

    so for example i'm thinking like in one

    of my partner schools in la

    there is a program called the las fotos

    project

    where you know one of the students i

    worked with she was really active

    in that community and so you know i'm

    just a researcher in space right i'm not

    an educator

    but i just think about like how much i

    got to learn about her when she invited

    me to her

    final like las photos presentation and i

    got to see

    like what she made her project on and

    what the other students here in the

    program made projects on

    and why they were drawn to working in

    photography for a purpose

    elevating voices in the community you

    know like if all of her teachers saw the

    sight of her

    how would they rethink the way that they

    teach english or social studies

    spanish science computer science

    that would build on the connection and

    then perhaps even build like

    collaborations with that non-profit

    organization you know so it's kind of

    that domino effect

    but i guess not sure if i fully answered

    your question but i could see that like

    building those connections it's really

    hard work

    and i think all of us could use some

    professional development in it but

    i could see how that would be really

    powerful if there were those connections

    made between classroom

    and students real lives and communities

    yeah and to have that agency to

    share one's identity and to learn more

    about others

    like with the lost photos and you're

    mentioning of like

    paulo freddy like it it sounds like

    decolonization

    in terms of yeah you're getting to know

    students that's great that's wonderful

    but it's also decolonization in that you

    are not trying to police the

    ways of being and valuing that students

    have

    and encouraging them to actually bring

    that within the space

    and just be themselves and i think that

    really important and that really

    resonates with me

    yeah 100 agree that's actually one of

    the things in the back of my mind i was

    thinking about when you said what would

    it

    like a really strong happy i don't

    remember your exact phrase but the

    computer science classroom like the

    ideal computer science classroom what

    would look like

    because i think that students are open

    and talking and engaged

    when they feel that their entire selves

    are being welcomed in the space in a way

    that's like

    yes i see how your perspective your

    experiences are

    assets to learning and i want you

    to feel fully comfortable here and

    that's when it's like okay

    so i feel comfortable here so i feel

    comfortable speaking my mind

    and getting into debate and discussing

    things that are challenging

    and being willing to persist through

    things that are challenging

    so yeah totally how has that kind of

    changed over time like your

    understanding of that ideal what you're

    looking for within the class

    how has that changed over time because i

    feel like that is that that ideal is

    something

    that i've always felt i'd want to see in

    a classroom

    from when i was a teacher to now working

    with teachers and

    observing teachers amazing work in their

    classrooms

    i myself and never reached that

    ideal i think there's you know in my

    early years of teaching it was like

    i did the best i could and i had amazing

    relationships with students

    that i'm still in touch with some of

    them today and

    i think that i've always thought that

    that idea was important because i think

    that's what

    drew me to education to begin with are

    the relationships it's what draws me to

    research actually

    my favorite part about being a

    researcher is

    the time that i get to spend with

    teachers and students and collaborate

    with them in their space on their ground

    on their terms

    and develop kind of like a shared world

    together

    and to me that's like the best part

    of my job is really those connections

    what's something that has surprised you

    about your

    cs education equity work it's not

    something that i planned

    for but it's something that like looking

    back

    i'm like well obviously this makes so

    much sense

    it's just like the lifelong friendship

    that

    has developed with my partner teacher

    in my research practice partnership in

    la i guess

    like sort of the unexpected when we

    started working together

    in this very professional relationship

    of let's

    elevate students voices and i'll be in

    your classroom at least once

    a week for two class periods and a lunch

    period every week

    or a full school year and we started to

    spend a lot of time together

    and like and also time after school

    together talking about

    observations and field notes and

    interviews with data

    over like a glass of wine and just like

    also getting to know each other

    and now she's family to me and i know

    we're gonna be friends

    till our like last breaths on this earth

    and i think that's sort of like a

    beautiful sort of

    bonus to getting to be a researcher and

    getting to do the work i get to do

    i'm curious so i'm on a couple of rpps

    right now so i'm

    familiar with it and really enjoy it and

    value the approach

    but if there's an educator who's like

    okay

    why would i want to be in an rpp and

    what is it but then

    what would you also say to like a

    researcher who

    hasn't tried an rpp before like what are

    the benefits for both like a

    practitioner and for a scholar

    well in my experiences in research

    practice partnerships

    um and i've worked in several over the

    past

    i guess since like 2014 the way

    i approach research practice

    partnerships is not the only way

    so take what i say with a grain of salt

    but i would

    say that it requires a sense of

    vulnerability and openness to trying

    something totally different

    and also humility and a willingness to

    hear other people out

    and try to see things from their

    perspective and

    not always feel like you have to be the

    one with the answers in the room

    because i think that is sort of the

    thing that's similar to both researchers

    and educators is that

    we've been taught we have to be right

    all the time and we have to have the

    answers and we have to be ready to

    answer everyone's questions

    and we have to like be sure that what

    we're doing is you know

    but we all make mistakes and we all are

    capable of learning

    new things but we often don't want to

    show that side of ourselves

    to others in my belief working in

    research practice partnerships it's one

    of like the challenging things about it

    is being open to changing your approach

    to how you teach or how you conduct

    research

    and make room for other people in your

    space

    and in your mind and in your brain

    while that can be challenging at first

    it's also

    i think the part that's the most

    beautiful about it is something

    better and richer really authentically

    can come from that

    because of the different perspectives

    that are swirling around each other

    and this like beautiful kind of like

    music making together right is these

    like voices coming together to sing

    together

    about what we're seeing together in a

    classroom

    what we're trying to make better

    together and then to be able to

    translate that

    to an audience that's not just our usual

    typical audiences right so like a

    researcher's academic audience or an

    educators like school-based audience

    store students

    like how do we make what we learn

    together

    helpful to others and to do something

    that can be put into immediate practice

    like

    that part i think is also so awesome

    about research practice partnerships

    that focus

    on like let's make sure this work that

    we're doing together these research

    questions

    or the data we collect or what we can

    make of the data

    can feed back to the educational spaces

    we

    are working in for like this constant

    improvement on both ends and i

    definitely have felt that with like

    again alicia morris who i work very

    closely with where

    you know i shared all my field notes

    with her which i know some researchers

    don't like to do that because it's again

    vulnerability right

    i've described everything that i've seen

    in your classroom here

    i've including my observer comments

    where i'm like having my own like

    internal reflections because of

    something i experienced in your

    classroom

    i'm just putting myself out there for

    you and she took it with

    open arms and she would like write

    feedback she would edit things

    she would ask questions and not always

    like within the 24 hours i gave it to

    her but

    she didn't ever leave one missing and i

    think that

    process really brought us closer but

    also helped us

    see like you know week-to-week

    shifts in terms of what i should be

    focusing on in my observation or

    questions i might ask

    students in the moment while they're

    working on a project

    and shifts she might make in the way

    that she works with

    specific students whose personal stories

    she didn't necessarily hear because they

    told me but they didn't tell her

    and vice versa as a researcher how i

    might maybe work with one student whose

    backstory i didn't hear about but that

    she knows about and so that changes the

    way that i behave

    to make sure that that student is

    comfortable and that i can be like

    another supportive adult not just like a

    weird fly on the wall or a person who

    creates more barriers for that student

    right but yeah my research practice

    partnerships in this like student voice

    research that

    i'm currently working on is has been

    very intimate

    i know that a lot of research practice

    partnerships tend to be large scale

    right

    which i don't really do right now but i

    support a larger scale research practice

    partnership that's being led by julie

    flapp and roxanna haddad

    on our team and that's been amazing and

    i love like the events we're working

    with administrators across the state of

    california

    but that looks very different than this

    like intensive research practice

    partnership with

    one teacher in la that i've really

    gotten to know you know

    and i hope to build that kind of

    relationship and closeness with my

    partners in mississippi

    as well but i guess going back to your

    question yeah what would i tell a

    teacher and what would i tell a

    researcher i think

    those things like the importance of

    being vulnerable and open

    and being willing to try to do something

    different

    and together like to try to find that

    shared space on equal footing to build

    that

    yeah if i were to add on to that i would

    also say that

    there's a tendency in cs education in

    particular where

    the k-12 teachers in general don't have

    a strong background in computer science

    they do have a strong

    background in pedagogy and how to teach

    and then it's the opposite for

    higher education faculty generally

    speaking that cs education

    tends to be a strong background in

    content knowledge but not necessarily

    a strong background or a set of

    experiences with teaching and so having

    that partnership to kind of exchange

    those ideas

    and to like fill in the strengths and

    weaknesses of

    the other person like i think is

    extremely valuable and i

    personally have really enjoyed going to

    like sixty

    which is typically mainly for academics

    and they'll have

    in the rpp sessions teacher voices

    actually there so it's not just

    scholars talking to scholars and then

    when you go to something like csta

    then it's the opposite of that so

    typically csda is more for practitioners

    but they'll have

    higher education faculty coming in and

    talking about scholarship and whatnot so

    like

    getting it so that both this is a false

    binary but

    practitioners and scholars are

    communicating and collaborating with

    each other i think is extremely valuable

    i totally agree it's been amazing

    experiences i've got to have

    now in computer science and previously

    when i was working at the exploratorium

    the tinkering studio

    just these like and i love the people

    that i met through that work

    and i was still friends with too it's

    just that like that close work together

    you begin to see the world differently

    in a way that's really beautiful

    if you were to like be able to just like

    hat up the magic wand and you can wave

    it and make

    any kind of change to help teachers

    understand something

    or make some kind of a change

    policy-wise around

    your interests in researching like

    student voice what would you hope

    to change if you were to be able to wave

    that magic wand

    that's a hard one because there's so

    many not to say that like

    educators are the problem at all but

    that there's so many

    interconnected things that i would want

    to have prioritized in our work i guess

    one thing is the magic wand

    of like how do we make it so everybody

    examines their biases if we all have

    this starting point of

    really looking at ourselves and

    our stereotypes about others and

    students other teachers our work

    then maybe we would begin to see

    why it's so important this is why i'm

    like having difficulty with this

    question because like i feel like that

    goes hand in hand with also

    if there was like magic wand on policy

    curriculum pedagogy where it's like yes

    computer science

    education should not be taught divorced

    from student identity our socio-cultural

    context

    our historical and political contexts

    that's

    i guess the other side of and i call it

    a dodecahedron

    yeah there's so many parts right but

    yeah it's not just a two-sided coin

    there's like all these different facets

    but yeah like if we were able to expand

    our biases and then if we were also able

    to then

    in the same breath recognize how

    computer science education needs to be

    taught really contextualized

    in the lives of our communities and our

    students

    i think that we would see some really

    powerful ways that computer science

    could be more innovative more open

    where the field would become more

    diverse and as a result we'd have like

    some really incredible innovations and

    also some really important stops on

    certain innovations

    that are hurtful right and the other

    thing too is i don't think that all

    children who

    study computer science in k-12 should

    then become computer scientists

    or computer science majors not at all i

    think that everyone just

    needs to learn computer science to

    understand how these tools work

    and shape our world and what are the

    decisions that go into

    the technology that we engage with and

    what are our rights and the questions we

    should be asking

    as we engage with our very computer

    centric world so that's why i feel like

    again going back to that magic wand

    thing like

    computer science is really taught in a

    way that acknowledged and welcomed

    student identity and place in the world

    that would be a big thing

    and then there's a third thing i'm also

    thinking about the magic wand of like

    student agency right

    like if computer science was taught in a

    way that was like yes the end result is

    that students should take lead and they

    should like

    feel engaged and like actually want to

    like yes

    learn but learn because they feel like

    they can do something with that learning

    and that it means something to them it's

    not just a grade or it's not just a

    class

    i think that would be cool too i am

    curious

    when it comes to examining biases how do

    you

    examine your own biases yeah i think

    that's a great question

    i don't ever think that i'm any way

    perfect

    i know that i've been brought up in a

    racist world and so

    i have internalized racism and

    that's going to impact the way that i do

    things and think about things

    at the same time i actively trying to

    work on that

    and i keep a journal i write down the

    things that

    i experience i think for me also

    i've had also like experiences thinking

    about power

    too that were really important for me to

    grow

    and like think you know how i wish i

    could have done things differently

    if i were to redo it and what would

    those things be

    in terms of like you know my role

    as like a pi or co-pi and what does that

    mean when i'm working with graduate

    students for example who have less power

    and you know the traditions that i've

    been taught about like

    oh well pis always have to be the first

    authors and always have control of the

    work

    and blah blah blah and when are the

    times in the spaces when

    we really need to push back against that

    and be like well

    whoever really owns ideas anyway you

    know

    i think the complexities of that also in

    academic spaces so i think those are

    sorts of

    experiences that i've had in more recent

    years that i also had as a graduate

    student right there were times when i

    was like wow

    look at how i'm being exploited to like

    teach this class sort of do this work to

    be paid nothing for these hours yeah so

    i think those are things that

    i've been learning about and continue to

    learn about

    as i grow up right in this like

    now with a phd now in this like early

    career phase

    and i haven't followed a traditional

    pathway right like most phd

    students become professors and i've

    chosen to become a researcher

    instead of a professor and i'll teach

    classes here and there but i'm not doing

    like the 10-year track route

    and part of that was because of again

    like thinking about

    power relations like i didn't want to

    get pulled into that but of course there

    are power relations is everything we do

    so i think i've learned great lessons

    around that and then

    also being a woman of color

    working in academia i think too

    in that space and in that context and

    he's like thinking about the

    intersectionality of my identities

    i feel like also these issues around

    like

    from my positionality and my identity

    within this context of academia

    that has histories in white supremacy

    right and the white supremacy like roots

    of the country

    and like the way that institutions have

    been built right there

    they're definitely that like sort of

    imposter syndrome that i think

    everyone in the world experiences at

    different points in their lives

    is a thing that i've definitely

    experienced all the time

    but recognizing that has also been sort

    of like

    again like thinking about the biases

    that i come here with

    like has also helped me kind of like

    when i flip that coin and think about

    the imposter syndrome that others who

    seem so confident might feel

    like it creates a space of vulnerability

    but also

    a space of like empathy and love

    towards others who might be experiencing

    difficult moments

    you know and for me i think what's

    really important is that when we do

    this work focused on issues of equity

    and justice

    that we don't go so far down the route

    of

    there's only this one way to make the

    world better

    and like if you don't get it you're not

    equity enough you're not justice enough

    and that closes out a lot of people to

    feeling like that they can change or

    like do things differently to me it's

    also really important to like

    examine my biases against people who

    don't agree with me

    about like these issues of for example

    talking about race in the classroom

    talking about identity in the classroom

    you know talking about politics in the

    classroom

    i have a friend in rpp

    that i'm working in who doesn't think

    politics should be

    talked about in the classroom and that

    his politics should not be visible

    when he's teaching and it's really

    important to me that

    we can talk about that openly together

    and not shut each other down

    but that requires me to examine my

    personal biases about

    you know if i think he's wrong well

    where is that coming from and how do we

    create a space where we can

    be supportive of each other and openly

    debate it

    and still be friends at the end of the

    day because i definitely have

    other friends in the far left who would

    not call him a friend they'd be like why

    are you friends with that person and i

    just think that

    if we have that attitude we're not going

    to actually make this world a better

    place or change anything

    but i'm by no means perfect and there's

    so much that i'm working on

    that i need a therapist if you have a

    good recommendation let me know

    i do but he's in arizona what have you

    been thinking about for yourself

    first before i answer that i want to

    just say thank you

    for being vulnerable with that i know

    that is a

    hard question to answer and just to be

    open about especially in the age of

    cancer culture where people

    on one hand they say hey you need to

    analyze your biases but on the other

    hand as soon as we find a bias we're

    going to cancel you and make sure you

    don't speak again

    like you can't have both that being said

    i

    too have a lot of unconscious or

    internalized isms

    that arise in moments that i never

    really realized

    and the way that i try and understand

    and work through those and eliminate

    those is through like you mentioned

    journaling i do reflections like each

    morning and each evening

    i also meditate in many different types

    of meditation but one

    in particular is just like sitting with

    a feeling or a thought or an emotion and

    really trying to understand

    what are the potential roots of that

    thought or emotion whatever it may be

    also one of the things that i really

    like to do is to

    sit with asking what is not being

    asked or discussed or considered on a

    particular topic

    coming from myself or from others as i

    mentioned

    in some like other interviews i really

    like a multi-perspectivalist approach i

    like to look at things from many

    different ways

    and so i can argue with myself on a

    number of topics

    trying to look at it from different

    lenses and whatnot and then i guess like

    another thing that i try and frequently

    sit through is examining my own

    privileges and whatnot because there

    have been

    a lot of things in my life that i

    haven't had to work as hard as some

    other people who would have had things

    that would have been

    disadvantages for them whereas i had

    some advantages in those particular

    contexts and whatnot

    not saying i haven't worked hard but i'm

    just saying like there have been many

    instances where i have not had to work

    as hard as

    other individuals like nikki

    washington's paper when twice as good as

    not enough

    like that is something that's like it

    really resonates okay i haven't had to

    work

    twice as hard as other individuals in

    other scenarios and whatnot

    thanks so much for sharing all of those

    approaches to working through these

    things

    too because yeah i actually recently

    started taking up a meditation practice

    and

    it's really hard yeah it's so hard not

    to have like

    constant streams of thoughts that are

    connected to each other and go deeper

    and deeper into this like

    rabbit hole of thinking yeah that

    doesn't lead to anything

    just creates anxiety or like creates

    emotion

    which i know that in itself is a thought

    and i love that too like

    examining our privileges perhaps that

    should be the magic wand thing right

    is that part of examining our biases is

    examining our privileges

    and our assumptions of the world because

    of those privileges yeah that's really

    great so building off of that idea of

    like examining things

    for what purpose ideally to improve in

    an area

    how do you iterate on your abilities in

    any of those areas that we mentioned or

    just even as a researcher how do i grow

    is i talk about things with my

    sisterhood

    of fellow like researchers and educators

    it's really important to have my

    community

    of chosen family to like when something

    comes up or something is challenging

    to think things through and also to

    push me to celebrate things because

    that's another

    side of the coin is like being afraid to

    celebrate

    when something is good because we've

    been taught that modesty is important

    especially for women so like yeah having

    my

    community of sisters to like really talk

    through these ideas through

    and i think also i appreciate the people

    who push back against me

    and like help me grow and learn because

    i

    am not good at lying i'm very open about

    how i feel and how i think

    and i'm not very quiet and

    i get like easily like excited

    and like passionate about something but

    then i also like

    easily like and let go and move on but

    then other people are like whoa you just

    riled me up

    you know i really appreciate the people

    who've also like taught me

    better ways to communicate and better

    ways to like

    express myself and and also to think

    about

    like you were saying like reflect on my

    privilege or reflect on my power

    how can we really be equitable in our

    daily practices not just what we think

    about what we write and what we

    are doing research about and definitely

    also

    like collaboration is key for me i love

    working with people

    and love working with lots of different

    people

    from different places different

    perspectives and i think that always

    pushes me to

    grow because you know hearing a

    different way of thinking about

    something

    or thinking about the same thing in the

    same way but from totally

    different life experiences is really

    just an important thing for like

    iterating on my practice like

    growing in my practice as a researcher

    and as a partner

    to educators i think i also make it

    sound like these are also things that

    i'm

    currently working on to do better right

    right like it's not like i've like i'm

    in any way perfect

    so it's just but these are the things

    that are part of my process now

    so what's in your process that also

    helps you prevent the burnout that can

    come with that self-examination like

    being a researcher in general is

    difficult but then so it's just being in

    education but then also being a

    researcher in education who's examining

    one biases and like being very critical

    of oneself like that can also

    lead to some burnout of just like

    throwing your arms in the air and saying

    all right i'm just

    gonna stop yeah it's funny because i

    think

    you're assuming i'm not burned out

    no but i mean that's partially a joke

    partially not i think this

    entire time of pandemic has really

    burned everyone out

    specifically in education everyone's

    working

    so so hard so i feel really fried i

    think all of us have been saying yes to

    more than we have the capacity to say

    yes to

    and at the same time it's expected of us

    to say yes and at the same time we want

    to say yes because we see

    all that like could be we don't want to

    stop

    because we want to make things better

    and

    currently i feel really fried i don't

    feel like a vacation

    would even fully heal me right and at

    the risk of sounding cheesy though i

    think that like

    yeah i think meditation practice helps i

    think that yoga practice helps

    i think that swimming helps i think that

    going for a walk helps

    like i think laughter helps with like

    people who don't work at all in your

    field

    who are like thinking about different

    things really is important

    and i'm so appreciative of like my

    community of friends and family who

    work in different spheres and are

    thinking about different things

    that we can come together and share and

    like wow you know

    that helps give me perspective and gives

    like breathes new life into what i'm

    thinking about

    we're working on but yeah i think that

    the self-care thing is so huge

    and it's like i totally am not doing it

    very well

    but i'm trying how do you not burn out

    it's an ongoing and ever-changing

    process kind of like what you're saying

    with equity like

    depending on the context depending on so

    many different factors

    like it shifts and somebody who

    is chronic depression like the tool bag

    of

    tricks that i have that helps me not

    feel

    depressed and when it was really bad not

    feel suicidal

    each tool has a different use

    for a different time or context or

    purpose

    and they don't always all work so

    like you mentioned with meditation and

    yoga yeah those have been fantastic

    for most of the time but sometimes they

    haven't worked well for me so

    muay thai works really well going and

    hitting my tie back downstairs like that

    something i enjoy doing or playing video

    games or

    playing with my dogs or creating

    something whether it's like artwork or

    music or whatever like

    there are many different things that i

    try and do

    to assist with that and so i've gone

    like as far as like

    creating a spreadsheet that would

    measure

    each like 10-minute interval of the day

    and i would like write down what i was

    doing and then

    write down how i felt so i could really

    try and analyze what exactly is it that

    makes me feel good and what does not

    you don't have to go that deep into that

    it worked well and i don't do that

    anymore

    but basically just each day now going

    and reflecting on

    what is something that made me feel good

    or

    like lit my fire and just made me really

    excited about something

    and just keeping that in basically a

    journal or a spreadsheet so when i'm

    feeling down or

    feeling off i can go to that and say

    okay here's 100 ideas that have worked

    for me in the past

    one of them is bound to work for me in

    this moment so let me just do a quick

    review of it okay i'm gonna go try that

    thing and then i go and do that thing

    that's really cool wow that spreadsheet

    sounds amazing

    talk about like mindfulness

    you know

    yeah and they have apps for it i just

    ended up creating my own

    my therapist recommended an app but i

    didn't have enough of like the range of

    emotions that i wanted to be able to

    express and like the kind of activities

    that i was engaging in so i wanted to be

    more granular

    and being ocd so i went in and just kind

    of basically created my own

    like drop down menu for each one of the

    cells so

    pro tip that's amazing and thank you

    also for being so open about

    like a struggle with depression because

    it's like i think that we need to be

    more open and discussing like these

    realities i feel like

    i've been struggling with anxiety

    especially during the pandemic and as i

    get older that anxiety increases and so

    it's kind of like

    finding these ways to i don't think it

    ever

    fully goes away right like it's not like

    depression is suddenly healed one day i

    don't think anxiety is suddenly healed

    one day but it's like the

    how do we come to see it acknowledge it

    and then

    like find ways to work through it

    because i also think about like the

    unhealthy practices

    that i have as a human being and

    that like add flame to my anxieties

    how i'm imprinting those things on my

    son

    like i'm so like that's a huge fear of

    mine which creates more anxiety by the

    way

    but like you know just like how do i not

    create that like

    same kind of patterning my parents are

    amazing i love them dearly but for sure

    there are probably things that they did

    that you know impact the way that

    i also think and behave and so i know

    that there are things that i'm doing

    that he will definitely need therapy for

    as well when he's an adult

    and so it's just that like yeah it's

    it's

    i don't know it's interesting but thank

    you for sharing that

    i just really appreciate you being open

    yeah the podcast that i released for the

    national suicide prevention month like

    that

    was probably the hardest podcast that

    i've ever recorded

    it's a paper that i did that talks about

    depression and suicidality and education

    and so

    i basically redid it in podcast form for

    cs educators

    and it's one of those topics that i just

    wish more people

    took the time to sit with as

    uncomfortable and as

    emotional as it can be it's one of the

    things that we really need to talk about

    as a field so

    i am open about having chronic

    depression because i want more people to

    know

    they're not alone and you can get help

    and

    things can get better like i haven't

    been on depressants in

    over a decade antidepressants but i

    still identify as having chronic

    depression i'm just

    not depressed right now it could go the

    other direction

    if i stop doing the things that i know

    work for me and have shown

    consistent results so it's a constant

    struggle

    and you can never really escape it if

    you're not

    actively monitoring it that's so awesome

    jared this

    the way that you're educating and

    helping others and us

    and me i'd love to talk to you more

    about that

    because there are different students

    that i've been in touch with over this

    pandemic who

    you know the resources that i was able

    to share

    was just like whatever i could find just

    google searching

    things like for resources for hotlines

    to call when particularly frustrated and

    depressed just because i knew that i was

    one person that they could turn to but

    i'm not

    necessarily the best person and

    sometimes it's better to talk to another

    teenager or it's better to talk to

    somebody who's also like

    trained to you know understand like the

    experience and offer resources so anyway

    i will listen to that podcast

    particularly

    the research on that is that most

    teachers are going to

    deal with suicidality in particular

    within their tenure and most

    pretty much every teacher is going to

    deal with students who have chronic

    depression and are going to show

    symptoms of it

    and so learning how to deal with that

    how to manage that and support

    students like that especially if you're

    doing the things that you mentioned of

    focusing on agency and identity and

    getting to know the student as a

    one-on-one

    and being a human being to them and them

    being a human being to you

    that is going to lead to being able to

    identify those emotions and that

    for me like there were over a dozen

    students that i personally mentored and

    like worked with

    in collaboration with the school

    counselors and whatnot to help them

    through their depression

    and even suicidality for some of them

    and

    it's because of that personal connection

    but

    going to what you were just saying

    there's a certain point where it's like

    i don't know what to do in a b or c

    scenario and that's why i always did

    this in collaboration

    with counselors therapists like music

    therapists creative arts therapists etc

    like

    they are all very capable and they're

    able to provide that therapeutic support

    but sometimes somebody just needs

    somebody to vent to

    and so students have kind of like

    literally put me on the like call list

    if it's like i'm having like suicidal

    thoughts

    these are the three people i'm supposed

    to call in order

    and so receiving those phone calls it's

    always scary

    but it's usually just needs somebody to

    speak with and to be human with and to

    be heard with so that's basically what i

    can recommend for anyone

    is you can be there to lend an ear but

    always like

    guide to support of somebody who has

    experience with that like a counselor or

    therapist

    and work in collaboration with them

    that's a great idea thank you for that

    advice

    i need to find those collaborators yeah

    it's hard

    but the nice thing like about working in

    k-12 or higher

    education institutions is there's

    usually somebody assigned to be able to

    work on that kind of a thing

    it's just a matter of knowing about it

    but most teachers don't know about it

    yeah so shifting directions i am curious

    what do you wish there was more research

    on that could inform your

    own practices yeah i would love more

    research on like

    youth participatory action research

    there's a lot of great wipar stuff out

    there

    but i want to read more like sort of how

    to

    organize and design research studies

    with youth for youth

    you know i would love to read more about

    like also

    building partnerships between schools

    and community organizations that like

    do joint work together i'm

    loving the work out there that's focused

    on issues of like ethics and social

    responsibility

    and we're working on a piece with miss

    morris

    as well around that but i also want to

    read more on that

    like what does it look like how do you

    do it i think

    also i would love to see more

    professional developments out there and

    studies about them on these topics we

    discussed earlier about like

    building connections how do you support

    educators

    in building connections with students

    and community

    and connect that to what they're

    teaching and doing in schools

    if you have recommendations of readings

    let me know

    yeah some kind of like a manual would be

    nice like here's a

    how to do this thing yeah totally it's

    like the culturally responsive thing

    like

    how do you do it right and i've seen

    great examples of what that looks like

    but also that

    magic thing of like but it's also unique

    to the individual

    educator and their specific style and

    way of connecting

    everyone's different and should be you

    know that like the connection to one's

    identity

    is a key part to making i think

    culturally responsive

    pedagogy come to life right do you have

    any questions for myself

    or for the field what has been the most

    surprising thing to you in your work in

    research practice partnerships in

    computer science education

    so for context one of the ones that i've

    been working on

    is working with the wind waver

    reservation

    in wyoming working with teachers and

    creating curricula that is

    to be used to connect not only the new

    wyoming computer science standards

    but also to connect them with the new

    social

    studies standards and ela standards so

    like connecting those three things

    around

    the northern arapaho and eastern

    shoshone tribes and their histories and

    cultures

    and then the other rpp that i'm working

    on is

    developing professional learning

    communities for

    rural schools and basically creating

    hubs

    in the rural communities in arizona so

    like

    arizona phoenix is massive and when you

    go outside of that

    there it is much more rural all

    throughout the state

    and a lot of the districts are like

    single school districts like k-12 and so

    they

    don't necessarily know where to get

    started with cs education and so we're

    partnering up with researchers

    practitioners etc from other communities

    to help with that with that context

    being said

    again going back to what i was

    previously saying

    i really enjoy like the

    multi-perspectivalist approach

    so considering perspectives that i

    hadn't considered

    and in particular having lived in

    phoenix my entire life

    and not being a native or indigenous or

    first culture

    individual there's many different

    arguments on which one is more or less

    appropriate at any given moment

    i'll just use multiple listening to

    those different perspectives

    has been very helpful in causing me to

    think about things that i just didn't

    know about

    or understand or wasn't aware of because

    it's just not

    in my circles of influence like i was

    recently

    in a conversation with some other cs

    education researchers who identify as

    native

    and they were mentioning things that i

    didn't know about

    historically speaking and then also just

    happened

    like the day before we were all

    conversing and when they mentioned those

    things like going and googling it i was

    just like

    oh wow i had no idea about this stuff

    so and extremely problematic history and

    extremely problematic things going on in

    north america right now

    related to native cultures and so it's

    just been

    very beneficial for me to have those

    conversations

    and to hear those different perspectives

    that makes sense

    totally makes sense actually i have the

    honor

    of running this student panel for the

    closing keynote for csta conference this

    year brian tuareg

    reached out to me to like help create

    this

    student panel and so i got to interview

    six or seven different students and then

    we're

    editing together parts of the interviews

    from these like zoom recordings

    into like a 20-minute piece for the

    keynote so yeah like people have been

    like

    teen you're the keynote i'm like no

    you're so lucky you don't have to hear

    from me you're going to hear

    the students directly but um

    i say that while being recorded on your

    podcast

    i apologize anyway but i got to speak to

    this

    amazing young woman who went

    to high school on the wind river

    reservation

    and do you know faith her name's faith

    daniels her teacher is mr winn

    do you know mr winn yeah he did a

    session at the

    csta equity in action summit cool yeah

    because he's a csta equity fellow

    i believe exactly that point you made

    where

    she talked about her experience

    she previously had lived on the navajo

    reservation

    she has navajo roots as well as arapaho

    roots

    and just her experience how different it

    was

    like living on reservation and going to

    a non-reservation high school

    and then moving up to wyoming and

    now like she lives off reservation but

    goes to the reservation school

    and just like the racism

    and mistreatment and disrespect that she

    experienced in public education it was

    just mind-blowing and

    you know i read about those things i

    hear about those

    things but just to listen

    to her voice and hear it directly from

    her

    put a whole new perspective

    on that experience for me that i took

    very

    personally like i was very personally

    offended by

    like her being mistreated which doesn't

    make sense

    it really made me upset that such a

    brilliant young woman and

    anyone would have to experience that and

    lose their trust in public school

    so it was just really powerful

    experience to get to speak to her yeah

    i don't think we think about the

    indigenous experience enough yeah i

    totally agree

    it was pretty much whitewashed out of my

    history classes

    and social studies classes like it was

    just not

    discussed and that's very problematic

    totally yeah i mean when i when i was

    teaching

    in hawaii you know i had got to teach a

    little like

    when i was doing my student teaching a

    little bit of like hawaiian history

    and of course there i think it's ninth

    grade it's the full year

    where you get a full year of hawaiian

    history which

    in my experience growing up in

    california hawaiian history was a

    paragraph

    in my social studies book you know you

    learn about

    queen liliukulani and like that's it

    and it's always presented it's like yeah

    and hawaii

    gave up their sovereignty and great

    you know like it's just really it's

    totally colonized

    imperialist america you know at it again

    taking over the hawaiian islands in a

    really brutal forceful way

    again like it was whitewashed out of our

    history

    books so the last question that i have

    is where might people go to connect with

    you and the organizations that you work

    with

    so i'll share with you our project

    website

    and my email that's the best way i'm not

    on any social media

    i'm on linkedin but i don't check it

    so yeah i'm kind of anti-social media

    but yeah i'm

    always welcome somebody throwing me a

    line not

    email yeah always love meeting new

    people so

    if anyone wants to reach out and then we

    can arrange like a chat

    that'd be great and with that that

    concludes this week's episode of the

    cska podcast

    i really hope you enjoyed this interview

    with gene i know i certainly did i

    again really appreciate gene's

    vulnerability if you're interested in

    learning more about the topics that we

    discussed i do include many links in the

    show notes which you can find

    in the app that you're listening to this

    on or by going to jaredaleri.com

    which has hundreds if not thousands of

    other resources for cs educators

    including a link to bootuppd.org which

    is the non-profit that i work for

    where i create free elementary coding

    curricula

    that you could use in your classroom by

    the way if you are a researcher who is

    listening to this podcast please feel

    free to reach out to me i'm always

    interested in collaborating on research

    projects

    and i'm able to spend more time on that

    now with my responsibilities at boot up

    so feel free to press the contact me

    button on my website if you'd like to

    collaborate or if you are somebody who

    would like to be a guest on the show

    stay tuned next week for another

    unpacking scholarship episode and two

    weeks from now for another interview

    hope you're all staying safe and are

    having a wonderful week

Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode

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  • Read “Stuck in the Shallow End: Education, Race, and Computing” by Jane Margolis

  • Learn more about the conferences I mentioned

  • Listen to the episode on Nicki Washington’s paper “When twice as good isn't enough: The case for cultural competence in computing”

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