The Shire as Metaphor for Systemic Racism with Joyce McCall

In this interview with Joyce McCall, we unpack and problematize some of the issues around race and racism in relation to education. In particular, we discuss the importance of allies not only showing up to support marginalized or oppressed groups, but staying when conversations get uncomfortable; the Shire from the Lord of the Rings as a metaphor for hegemony and systemic racism; as well as a variety of theories such as critical race theory, double consciousness, cultural capital; and much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast my name is jared o'leary

    in this week's episode i'm interviewing

    joyce mccall joyce and i have been

    friends and colleagues for several years

    as we both went to the same doctoral

    program

    at arizona state university she's now a

    music education professor

    in illinois all right now you might be

    wondering why i'm having a music

    education professor come on this podcast

    the reason why is because

    joyce is an expert at issues around race

    and racism in education

    so this particular episode discusses the

    importance of allies not only showing up

    to support marginalized or oppressed

    groups

    but staying when the conversations get

    uncomfortable joyce also unpacks

    some theories such as critical race

    theory double consciousness

    cultural capital hegemony etc so for

    example she provides a brilliant

    metaphor for the shire from the lord of

    the rings as a metaphor for

    hegemony and systemic racism as always

    you can find a link to the show notes in

    the app that you're listening to this on

    which includes several links to scholars

    that

    joyce recommends for learning more about

    anti-racist practices

    critical race theory and more i hope you

    get as much out of this interview as i

    did

    i really enjoyed this interview with

    joyce and believe there's a ton of

    important information in here and in the

    show notes that can help cs educators

    with that being said we're now going to

    begin with joyce introducing herself

    joyce mccall i am an assistant professor

    at the university of illinois in urban

    champaign

    i just finished my second year my work

    has to do with

    looking at their topics in race class

    culture and using various theoretical

    frameworks such as critical race theory

    double consciousness theory so i guess

    how i started this work or how i was

    inspired to do this work

    has a lot to do with my experience

    as a black female growing up in this

    country and being a part of

    school music and seeing that i was

    always

    pretty much one of you or the only in my

    school bands and also even when i was in

    the military center for 14 years in the

    army bands i was

    oftentimes the only black female in the

    unit

    or one of few black folks in the unit so

    yeah it inspired me to do this this work

    and especially as a teacher i taught in

    houston texas as an assistant band

    director at macarthur

    high school in alden independent school

    district

    it's a predominantly latinx school

    district

    and it was there especially that

    i was compelled or moved to go and

    pursue a phd in music education

    because i realized just how messed up

    the system was

    planned or was situated to work you know

    to marginalize certain people

    and raise other people up and i wanted

    to find a way to set the table to create

    change

    and now that i'm sitting at the table

    the table is really hard to sit at

    sometimes

    because the folks at the table if they

    move very slow or

    there are people at the table who have

    no intention

    of any sort of movement so they're there

    to hold up progress

    you know and so i said it's really

    challenging to sit at the

    table sometimes i ask myself well is it

    worth

    sitting at this table i go and sit at

    another table or

    build my own table or just not sitting

    at the table right you have to have

    a gig in higher ed or wherever to do

    this sort of work

    and the reason why i haven't said social

    justice work is because people wear it

    out

    and that term has become pretty stale

    over the years

    even though that's essentially what

    we're doing yeah i teach a couple

    courses here at illinois

    jazz methods this course called social

    foundations this is a sophomore course

    for undergrad music ed students and

    it's basically looking at various

    socio-cultural groups

    and issues and situating all of that

    within

    the music classroom and i also teach a

    class called transformative topics for

    for graduate students and the most

    recent

    course well the course that i created

    it's called social transformation

    technology and music and so we're

    looking

    at all these issues in the world

    situating them within

    music but using theoretical frameworks

    or no frameworks at all

    and saying well what are these issues

    how can we not just music education

    people but performers

    and music theorists music industry

    people

    i've even had a couple students in that

    class from from

    social sciences from drafting

    and one student from engineering

    and so yeah that those are just a few

    things about me

    so can you tell me a story about an

    experience in education that continues

    to impact you

    i can tell you one story that has always

    stayed with me and that really shook me

    up a bit

    even though the situation wasn't foreign

    to me

    so i was teaching in houston texas at

    macarthur high school

    well it was just after

    the school day had ended and

    i was preparing just like any other

    marching band person

    preparing to head out to the field you

    know grabbing my water bottle

    wrapping up a few emails grabbing my

    baseball cap and so this student walks

    in

    who's just an outstanding student she

    was an ib student

    had like a 4.7 gpa already

    and she came into the

    office and said hey miss i can come to

    rehearsal today

    and i'm talking to her while i'm

    you know grabbing my things dealing with

    the computer putting files away so i can

    head out to the field

    and i'm like no no you you'll figure it

    out you'll be there

    because this student never missed a

    rehearsal right

    so she's like no miss i can't come i

    can't come to rehearsal

    she's a soft-spoken person and i was

    like no you'll be there and all of a

    sudden she raised her voice

    and yelled at me and that was completely

    out of her

    personality it was totally totally

    different

    i stopped in my tracks and i turned

    around and

    this kid tears were just pouring down

    her face

    she had cuts on her face like a busted

    lip

    her face was black and blue and i said

    who did this

    to you and she's like miss i can't tell

    you i just need i

    i need to go home i said well you know

    were you in a fight

    did you get jumped things of that sort

    she's like miss i just can't tell you

    and i said well we can't leave

    without you telling me she went to

    explain to me as i closed the door to my

    office

    that her mom did that to her like her

    mom

    beat the crap out of this kid because

    she was actually trying to save her

    mom's life because her mom was

    going to commit suicide and to save her

    mom

    she called 9-1-1 and her mom beat her

    and when she told me that it took

    everything within me

    not to go and find her mom and beat the

    hell out of this woman

    everything's surging through me but then

    i had to like find a way to come myself

    down

    because i'm like i gotta tend to to the

    student and see what's up what can i do

    and yada yada

    but i was so furious at the situation

    but then two i realized you know i got

    a healthy student i said well we need to

    go talk to the counselor

    at first i mentioned the principal she

    was like no no no she started to freak

    out and so i said well

    you know let's go talk to the counselor

    and and so we went to the counselor and

    i

    said hey can we come in and chat with

    you

    so we went in and i told her i said well

    i asked the student i said well

    do you mind if i share the story with

    you know

    my colleague and she she agreed and i

    told her what happened

    and of course the counselor said well

    you know we have to call dhs

    and of course the student was like no no

    no we're going to put my mom in jail

    you know that's any kid's concern about

    it so

    i said well maybe dhs will find a way to

    help your mom but we got to get you out

    of this situation

    and eventually you know over the course

    of a couple days a few days

    we were able to get the student out of

    situation but the challenge was

    was that she would have to change

    schools and she would go and live with

    her dad

    just outside of houston and she didn't

    want to do that because of course she

    had made friends and she loved being in

    the

    band program it was horrible but she got

    the help that she needed

    fast forward a year later i'm at a

    marching band

    festival of course somebody tapped me on

    my shoulder

    and it was the student who i had helped

    the year before

    she was at the competition to support

    her band colleagues

    in the band and she had a poster and

    everything she had this huge smile on

    her face

    and she came up and she said hey miss i

    just wanted to come up

    and thank you for saving me

    and i swear jared it took everything

    within me not to break down

    in that in that moment because i

    remember

    going through some crap in my own home

    but

    no one at school knew no one at school

    bothered to ask and no one

    kinda you know no one stepped into quote

    unquote saved me

    and so it was that experience

    as well as a whole lot of others while

    teaching

    that made me throw my philosophy of

    teaching

    in the trash

    it made me just completely do this

    huge turnaround and say you know at the

    end of the day

    what we do as music educators or as

    musicians or whatever the case may be

    it's not really about the music it

    really really isn't

    i mean the music is one of many tools

    that we use

    to create community to create a sense of

    belonging

    and opportunities to create and innovate

    but at the end of the day especially in

    music education

    it's not about the music it just happens

    to be

    one of the many products that we create

    through our interactions with students

    and colleagues

    and so that experience as well as a

    wealth of others while teaching

    really gave me the sort of encouragement

    but also a platform

    a real platform from which i could

    speak to because that platform i knew

    very well

    because of my own story i could speak

    from that platform in a real way

    and i felt like not a lot of people

    could speak to it

    or not a lot of people really wanted to

    speak to it

    that story and many others were the

    sort of gears that create shifts in my

    career and even how i think about music

    education

    it's wonderful to have that kind of

    impact and

    it's definitely relatable in terms of

    you expressing that you

    went through similar experiences and

    being able to help and identify with

    that like

    myself being chronically depressed and

    suicidal like

    being able to identify kids who are

    struggling through depression and

    suicidality

    because i've been through it as well

    it's been one of those things where it's

    like

    i wouldn't wish depression or

    suicidality on anyone but i've been able

    to help out kids with it

    and that has been invaluable and i

    totally understand

    the importance of working with kids

    one-on-one and just

    meeting them where they're at mentally

    emotionally etc

    in that moment it's not about the

    content it's about helping

    individuals so what about with your

    research

    so your research areas have been about

    basically helping marginalized

    communities and whatnot specifically

    around race

    how has your research kind of informed

    or impacted

    your understandings of education well i

    think

    it's two-pronged my response one in that

    it has helped to i guess confirm

    that education has not done its job or

    so many people who have had the

    opportunity to create equitable spaces

    and to provide a socially just

    experience for all students a lot of

    people have failed in that

    like for instance even my dissertation

    when i looked at african-american

    students moving from historically black

    college undergraduate music program to a

    graduate

    music program at a predominantly white

    institution in the 21st century

    a lot of well actually all the

    participants in that study

    encounter overt racism you know in the

    like when you mention that you know a

    lot of people assume that we're still in

    the post-racial era

    and particularly when president obama

    was elected participants in that study

    were in graduate school when president

    obama was president

    here these these black men are

    negotiating

    racist structures but also racist

    behaviors from their white peers and

    faculty

    and so i think my research confirms

    a lot of the things that either a i

    myself have

    experienced or observed or read about

    but then also i think the other piece of

    my research

    i think it has impacted or compelled

    some people

    in the profession to reflect and to

    create some waves of change whether it's

    in their own classroom or how they talk

    about race or how they

    engage racially minoritized populations

    i wish my research could do a bit more

    because i'm one of the things that i

    really am working on even when i speak

    to

    universities or whomever is to push them

    to act

    because i feel like you know a lot of

    research is

    is situating along the line of starting

    points and i feel like we've been at the

    starting point for too long on race and

    racism in this country

    and so pushing people to think about

    initiatives

    and strategies that are anti-racist

    to look at all the forms of racism right

    and not just the individual or

    interpersonal racism but

    the structural and institutional stuff

    we'll see if this is still the case like

    a year and five years from now but it

    seems like we're

    we're at an awakening point where people

    are starting to realize we need to learn

    more

    and engage in discussions on anti-racism

    in particular

    so hopefully like things are getting

    better one thing that i would

    argue against though is like you

    mentioned that schools are designed to

    be

    like promote equity and whatnot but i

    think it's also designed to oppress

    people and like one

    easy way to look at that is like what

    we've historically done to

    american indian or indigenous

    populations where

    like we were quote trying to civilize

    the savages

    and there's a lot of research on this

    that has been done that has talked about

    like basically

    we took kids off the reservation and

    tried to

    made them white make them white and

    there's

    tons of research out there on that if

    people are listening to this and are

    confused about it i'll put some

    in the show notes it's like on one hand

    we say yeah we want to be equitable and

    like we want to do these like great

    things and

    promote this like good things for

    society and people but on the other hand

    we're going to oppress you and make you

    do things

    our way yeah it's like you do it our way

    and that's

    you know that's one of the things that i

    that i mentioned here at illinois

    you know people always talk about

    diversity and

    heck even when i was at indiana a lot of

    institutions are so quick to

    you know diversity diversity diversity

    recruitment recruitment

    and i'm just like yeah you see diversity

    but it's all about how you want it

    yep you know what i mean it's like how

    do you want it and

    it's very controlled so i agree with you

    i mean even looking at historically

    black colleges and universities

    i think cheyney university was the first

    one in 1837

    roughly 200 years after harvard and

    when they were allowed to create these

    institutions

    they didn't have the same curriculum as

    harvard why because

    the folks who were in these schools were

    newly

    freed from enslavement where they were

    not

    empowered to read or write or to do

    anything

    close to that deemed to be sort of

    education like many of these schools

    started out hbc

    started out as a might as well say the

    equivalent to

    kindergarten teaching people how to read

    and write but

    also etiquette and how

    to assimilate into a predominantly

    all-white

    american society right education in this

    country is all within

    certain parameters and when you you know

    bust outside of those parameters

    it's trouble it's incredible look at the

    curriculum

    at any university you can look at our

    curriculum

    at illinois many of my colleagues here

    agree

    it's very rooted in western

    art music and everything else outside of

    that

    is not necessarily of importance like a

    class is probably deemed an elective

    unless you are majoring in a particular

    sort of

    music so if you're majoring in jazz more

    than likely you're going to take jazz

    classes

    and jazz is a black art form but how

    many

    other people would actually take that

    course right

    or be told that they need to take that

    course not many

    it's unreal but we call ourselves music

    school schools are music

    but only one music is elevated yes

    which is an extremely important point

    that i don't think most people realize

    one of your comments about how hbcus

    were

    teaching etiquette and whatnot in order

    to like assimilate it's also

    not just like the ways that you behave

    and interact within

    predominantly white society but it's

    also just like the natural ways of being

    like the embodied things that natural

    hair

    how workplaces will put a ban on stuff

    like that and it's just like

    those little things it's like wait so

    you're saying my natural way of being

    is not allowed here what does that say

    about what you think about me and how i

    am as a person

    or who i am yeah i mean for instance

    like my years in the military for black

    women

    even now there are certain hairstyles we

    cannot

    wear like cornrows

    they have to be a specific size and a

    specific

    this and that but white women in the

    military

    they will throw some cornrows in their

    hair

    easily when i got into the military in

    basic training

    we were told to wear underwear based off

    of my skin

    complexion i joined in the military in

    black women had to wear certain at least

    this is what our dream

    sergeant told us black women had to wear

    specific

    underwear a certain color and then white

    women had to wear white

    underwear and bras why i don't know

    no explanation just this is what you're

    doing yeah

    no explanation because two none of us

    were gonna

    push against it because the majority of

    folks who enlist in the military are

    usually like 17 18 19 years old right at

    the time i was

    just

    how you are like you say your natural

    way of being is not acceptable

    for the status quo when we look at

    colorism

    you know skin complexion skin tones and

    that is a direct product of racism

    yeah how people see themselves and so

    even in the black community like my skin

    complexion

    would be acceptable because my skin

    complexion is

    considered to be light skinned there was

    the brown bag paper test

    right and they placed the brown bag next

    to your skin and if

    if you were that color or lighter then

    you were considered to be beautiful and

    smart and you had social access and all

    these things but if you were darker

    then your access to various things were

    pretty limited everything is so related

    and

    interwoven racism is so endemic in

    american culture

    it's not real yeah i mean another

    example it's only in the last few years

    that

    the so-called skin tone band-aids and

    makeup

    actually are not just white now like it

    includes

    other colors other than variations of

    shades of white

    yeah that's crazy i think it was the

    rockets

    yeah they just now recently within the

    last few years have allowed

    women of color to have the same skin

    tone

    as their bodies with the stockings

    and the argument was you know we have to

    have uniformity

    but it's like okay everybody's legs are

    the same but then when you

    go up to their face you have white women

    and you have

    women of color it's crazy the excuses

    right to ask someone to not be

    themselves

    at the beginning you had mentioned that

    like two of the primary theories that

    you've worked with is critical race

    theory and double consciousness

    how would you explain both of those to a

    novice and like

    how they kind of inform your own

    understanding of education

    that's a good question and i think it's

    totally fair and it should be asked all

    the time

    because i think some of us some scholars

    and

    academics you know assume that everybody

    is going to know what we're talking

    about critical race theory

    is basically a tool a theoretical

    framework

    if you will it's the lens that we use to

    analyze look at and assess and examine

    racialized structures attitudes and

    behaviors

    so actually critical race theory

    it began to emerge through critical

    legal studies in the 1970s

    and it also served as a response to the

    incremental approaches

    of the civil rights movement because a

    lot of people were saying you know the

    civil rights movement

    even though that was progress it was

    very slow

    and through critical legal studies

    it was this guy by the name of derek

    bell who's no longer with us he's

    considered to be the father of critical

    race theory

    he used things like storytelling

    to educate white folks about

    the experience of black folks in america

    and so

    eventually it emerged to an actual

    theory

    and into education so there are

    a few tenets or rationales to support

    critical race theory so a couple of them

    includes

    one racism is real is not abnormal it's

    very

    much a part of the american culture then

    there's another one called

    storytelling or naming one's own reality

    using storytelling to inform using

    storytelling to create counter

    narratives

    narratives of other folks or dominant

    individuals and so for instance decades

    ago

    when black folks were allowed to speak

    in court

    their testimonies were often

    very much controlled and sometimes they

    weren't even allowed to give

    testimony but through testimony or

    as derek bell in critical race theories

    called storytelling

    they are able to one identify racist

    structures

    but also name their origins and the

    perpetrators

    in other situations they would not be

    able to do that and so

    this whole push to to look at racism

    far beyond the surface i see critical

    race theory as a lens

    or a high-powered microscope

    to look at racism far beyond the surface

    because sometimes when people think

    about racism even now

    they tend to think about racism from

    white crazy men on their horses with

    hoods

    what's funny is that there still are

    these white crazy men on horses

    in the 21st century riding through

    downtown

    you know these small towns and whatnot

    or even

    recently like at what the capital of

    michigan right

    or covet but it's looking at

    deep into the structure when i think

    about the structure i think of in terms

    of a matrix like the movie the matrix

    and all these layers of information and

    intersections

    of identity and discourse and things of

    that sort

    i'm curious like how does that inform

    your approach to education because like

    having done some critical analyses of

    things

    i see so many problems in education and

    sometimes it can be overwhelming

    like with the pre-service and service

    teachers that you're working with

    how do you help them understand critical

    race theory and like its implications

    as educators yeah so i actually

    sometimes i'll use case studies you know

    stories of others or stories that i

    wrote

    or i'll actually tell stories or even

    allow

    give folks in the class to share stories

    and we will sit there and we'll pick

    apart

    or deconstruct these stories and analyze

    them

    and like i said with my explanation of

    critical race theory

    you use these rash canals or aspects of

    critical race theory

    to look very deeply and intently at

    each incident in one naming

    its origins locating perpetrators but

    also coming back and saying well

    how can you as a music educator future

    teacher

    how can you become adept to

    being able to identify these things long

    before they become

    an incident or to identify attitudes

    how can you situate your own space

    in terms of every student being able

    to feel empowered whether that has to do

    with how you

    decorate your classroom you know if

    you're just putting up

    these white composers who by the way

    have been dead for

    centuries or you're elevating a certain

    particular sort of music i use stories

    or case studies or sometimes i'll

    actually pull

    research from other scholars like dr

    gloria last and billings is one of them

    dr adrian dixon she's here at the

    university of illinois

    kimberly crenshaw victor delgado richard

    cerlizano terry oso but

    i try to use storytelling

    at least to me that seems to be one of

    the most accessible ways

    you can get people to listen and hone in

    on

    you know storytelling has always been

    one of these

    wonderful cultural artifacts for any

    culture

    to share information to inform to warn

    to provide survival techniques and

    strategies

    we problematize that stuff in the

    classroom but

    also i create scenarios on the fly

    like i'll post something on blackboard

    i'll post a scenario

    and they will have to immediately

    respond within 24 hours

    instead of giving them like a whole week

    or two weeks to respond

    i forced them to respond to a scenario

    really quickly i mean essentially that's

    how it's gonna happen in the classroom

    right it's not gonna happen in slow

    motion racism it's always

    like at the drop of a hat and two most

    people

    aren't able to even identify racist

    incidents right either one because they

    are

    on the privileged end of race or

    perhaps their understanding of race and

    racism is so

    limited and so sparse

    i try to make it as real as possible

    that in itself is a challenge because

    two we have a lot of

    white students here who are

    uncomfortable

    with just the word white

    let alone engaging in conversations

    about race

    and so that's actually been one of my

    most

    challenging experiences as a teacher

    educator

    in this work is helping or

    encouraging white students to get

    outside of their box

    majority of students we get here from

    the chicago suburbs

    in terms of like black students for

    instance 3.2 percent

    of our students here at the school of

    music are black

    it's very small so what about double

    consciousness theory

    how would you describe that to somebody

    who's unaware of it yeah so double

    consciousness theory

    is a theory by w.b du bois

    some scholars have actually deemed him

    as the father of critical race theories

    or like the grandfather

    du bois actually formed his theory based

    off of his own experiences as an african

    american in this country and his

    observations of

    other african americans that theory

    suggests

    that he says that because of the color

    line or because of racism

    black folk have to see themselves

    through

    two different modes of consciousness

    through their own eyes

    how they see themselves but they also

    have to know

    how white folks a white america see them

    and so you're operating in the worlds

    with this double consciousness

    so how i would explain that is

    some people will say it's code switching

    but it's not code switching

    at least for me is a byproduct of double

    consciousness

    it is an act that one uses to negotiate

    the color line

    but it's like you are aware of

    what's going on in the world but you

    also have to be super

    aware of how the world sees you even

    when they don't say anything

    i'm curious so like as a kind of a

    follow-up question to dive deeper how

    does

    double consciousness kind of relate to

    cultural capital and community cultural

    wealth

    cultural capital is capital that only a

    select few can obtain

    it is the information the codes the or

    the

    objects one acquires or inherits

    that they can use to climb the ladder of

    social mobility

    it is also access so for instance like a

    second or third generation college

    student might have

    more access more access to codes and

    means and

    cognitive maps and how to negotiate just

    applying to go to college whereas if you

    look at a first generation college

    student

    they probably won't have that

    information because one their parents

    didn't go to college

    their grandparents didn't go to college

    and so the question becomes well

    they go to college they applied and they

    did all these things

    how were they able to do that because

    cultural capital suggested alberto

    suggests that only white european

    descendants

    from middle to upper class majority have

    access to cultural capital

    so individuals who are not

    members of that group terry also

    suggests that

    those individuals people of color obtain

    cultural capital

    in a number of ways but also they have

    their own culture

    i echo her is that people of color we

    have our culture

    the problem is is that the dominant

    space

    sees what we bring to the table as

    deficient

    for instance so i had a student who

    could place his butt off he's a

    guitarist he actually won a stellar

    award

    he could play anything and when i say

    anything i mean

    anything he was raised in the black

    baptist church and in the black baptist

    church

    it's not just about reading music it's

    more so about your ears

    right it's about responding to

    modulations key changes all these things

    at the drop of the hat well here's the

    thing this student

    didn't read music and so

    but a lot of black kids were

    raised in the black church that was

    their music education

    right but here you have a student

    like i mentioned who played the guitar

    who could hear anything and play it back

    he wanted to go to college he wanted to

    major music he actually wanted to go to

    unt

    the problem with that is that in order

    to get into any institution in this

    country

    you got to be able to read music and

    majority of kiddos who apply to these

    schools

    are not only white students but they

    have that cultural capital

    and the cultural capital in this case is

    being able to read

    notation westernized notation and so

    i think going back to the double

    consciousness piece

    these i believe racist structures

    through the use of using certain

    pieces of information as a means to keep

    people out

    and to welcome people in is a form of

    racism

    and so when when a person like myself or

    the young man who i was talking about

    the guitars

    we come up to apply it's like

    not only do we have to not only do we

    see ourselves our own culture

    but we also see how the world sees our

    culture

    and minimizes it but i believe that

    because

    we live in this very racist society

    in this country that was actually built

    off of

    the notion of race we grew up in it

    and so we recognize that we've learned

    to to see both sides of the world in

    order to survive

    i think it was andrew hacker he was an

    economist

    he was actually talking about how

    parents have to have a conversation with

    their kids

    and that's been recent in the news to

    talk about racism

    to talk about how the world is going to

    see you even though if you work hard you

    can tell you can be the president of the

    united states

    and the many many people many occupants

    in the world

    or social agents in the world are going

    to see you as

    deficient and there's this quote that he

    says it says there will be

    the perplexing and equally painful task

    of having to explain to your children

    why they will not be treated as other

    americans

    that they will never be altogether

    accepted that they will always be

    regarded rarely if not with suspicion or

    hostility

    when they ask whether this happens

    because of anything you have done you

    must find ways of conveying that no

    it is not because of any fault of their

    own further for reasons you can barely

    explain yourself you must tell them that

    much of the world has decided that you

    are not and cannot be their equals

    that this world wishes to keep you apart

    a cast it will neither absorb nor

    assimilate you will tell your children

    this world is wrong but because

    that world is there they will have to

    struggle to survive with the

    skills weighted against them they'll

    have to work harder and do better yet

    the results

    may be less recognition and reward we

    all know that life

    is can be unfair for black people this

    knowledge is not

    an academic theory but a fact of daily

    life

    i would go on record and say if not all

    most

    black american kids have been told

    early on here's this thing that's going

    to happen

    you're not going to know why it's going

    to be really weird

    and it's going to hurt but just know

    it's not going to be your fault

    and i think black folks in america we

    learn to negotiate this thing called

    double consciousness

    or we anticipate it we just don't know

    when it's gonna happen it happens every

    day the thousand daily cuts of

    it and so if i was talking to somebody

    outside of music about this sort of work

    double consciousness exists according to

    the voice and even according to myself

    it exists because racism exists right

    the color line exists and and until we

    address that uh this this experience

    this

    two-ness that we experience will

    continue on

    and it's not just black folk it's all

    people of color

    experience this in a number of ways

    double consciousness is not something

    that i

    as a white individual like was even

    aware of

    and like the only similar experience

    that i can

    think of is like the last 10 years i've

    lived in a neighborhood a part of town

    that is predominantly latinx and when i

    like go grocery shopping or

    hang out with my neighbors or whatever

    like that is the only time that i'm

    aware of like anything that sounds like

    double consciousness

    and up until that point it just it

    wasn't something that i thought about

    it's one of those things was like i want

    to learn more about this

    because i find problems with this and so

    i'm wondering

    what advice would you give for other

    educators who are trying to learn more

    about

    stuff like double consciousness or just

    trying to understand

    that there are forms of violence and

    oppression kind of like

    built into education and like how can

    educators like then problematize that

    and then seek to change that

    i just had a conversation i hosted this

    talk on like what are the next steps

    towards realizing equality and justice

    for all

    particularly for the white students and

    my white colleagues here at illinois in

    the school of music

    and one of the things that that is the

    most

    accessible way of addressing what you

    just said

    is having conversations with people

    right

    it seems simple because it is simple

    i tell students all the time when you

    come into class you know you guys always

    act like you're down for the cause and

    black lives matter but even in class you

    won't even

    sit by someone else you've never set by

    before my thing is like challenge your

    comfort level

    have conversations with folks in your

    community like where you live

    i'm sure you have conversations with

    people who either a don't look like you

    b probably have a different story

    or have a different reality i think it

    is in

    those moments in those opportunities

    where people

    can get to know what the reality is

    for their fellow neighbor right it's

    really

    simple and what's really funny is like

    when i say that to people they're like

    well what else we need to do

    i'm like that's what you need to do

    silly man

    and i think people are afraid to do that

    because in this country you know our

    culture is very much

    like you have to have your own space you

    stay over there i stay over here

    but if you go to europe even on the

    train random people will sit next to you

    because they need that seat

    they're not going to stand up and say oh

    i don't want to sit next to that person

    because that's a white person or

    that's a person who's muslim no it's

    because

    i'm going to sit here because this seat

    is open but here in this country

    you can walk into a starbucks and there

    are so many open

    chairs but if there's one person at the

    table

    no one's gonna sit there yeah isn't that

    crazy

    isn't that like ridiculous but i think

    it's about

    really and truly if you're in a grocery

    store i do this all the time if

    somebody's in front of me i'll actually

    talk to them

    you know i ask questions it's kind of

    hard to do that in the midwest because

    the midwest is

    a little different it's a simple

    suggestion and solution but it's also a

    complicated one like as an example of

    why i think it's complicated especially

    online yeah

    i it was like a week ago somebody had

    posted

    something about a political party and

    somebody commented the disagreeing

    basically suggesting we should have a

    civil war to get

    rid of that political party and like

    when i tried to engage in a conversation

    like why do you think it's justifiable

    to murder

    a significant portion of our population

    because we can't have conversations

    and they just resorted to name calling

    and calling me a wimp and whatnot so

    like

    on one hand it's very easy to reach out

    to people but on the other hand like

    even just basic conversations like turn

    into forms of violence

    well yeah that's true but also

    one of the things that i talk about in

    even the sophomore class that i teach

    here

    and we talk about this i say you know

    there will be times

    where no one whether individual will not

    want to hear what you have to say

    well actually because they just don't

    want to hear it and you either they have

    to make a choice like

    okay i reach my limit with this person

    okay and then move on to another person

    right because more than likely there are

    more people out there

    who are more willing to engage in

    conversation

    identifying the similarities and

    differences between the two of you

    then there are people who just want to

    be violent and ignorant

    that's a great point the example that i

    gave was definitely on an extreme end of

    the continuum in terms of responses

    yeah and there are folks who don't want

    to engage because they

    seem like the topic is just so cliche

    or we've been on this topic forever one

    of the things that i have working for me

    is like

    i'm an army veteran a lot of the

    veterans

    not all of them some of them are really

    staunch

    republican so much so they're the people

    who are out there with long guns

    and m4 carbines protest and covet

    some of those individuals i've actually

    had the opportunity to have a

    conversation with

    and because i have the cachet of i'm an

    army vet

    that capital right yeah i served in the

    austin and so i try to find

    these pieces of common ground

    and sometimes there isn't but i think

    those are opportunities to establish

    empathy

    the other part of your question was well

    how do you problematize

    those situations or those efforts in the

    classroom

    i'm all about examining things you know

    and then posing more questions well

    what would this be like if this happened

    just looking at

    all sides of it but i think the most

    accessible way

    is is having conversations with folk but

    also challenging yourself

    to educate yourself now you're an

    individual i don't think i

    would ever have to say that to you i'm

    assuming that this is your way of life

    and

    and this is another piece that i tell

    people to do this work

    to to be empathetic and to be real about

    it

    it is a way of life like i can sit here

    and talk to

    white people all day about culturally

    relevant pedagogy critical race theory

    double consciousness

    blah blah blah blah but if their heart

    is not there if that's not a part of

    their personality

    and who they are to their core if it

    doesn't happen

    i can't be broken up about it

    to me it's really simple and i get it

    that sometimes you might encounter folks

    who will pose questions like the civil

    war

    thing that you mentioned and i've gotten

    into shouting matches with folks

    a few years ago particularly when

    georgia allowed

    when they gave the okay for the

    confederate flag

    as an option for your license plate what

    yeah it was it must have been one two

    three maybe four or five years ago

    and i post my critique on social media

    and one of my fellow well

    yeah fellow army buddies chimed in

    and she was like well i'm surprised

    you're educated and you need to go read

    a book

    the response usually is oh it's not

    about racism the confederate flag is not

    about racism

    i'm like yeah it is and however the

    that flag had several iterations of that

    flag prior to the one that

    is currently used now that battle flag

    so i mean i've gotten into arguments but

    now

    i don't argue with people if if i see

    where

    you know we're not jiving

    i have to be okay with it and move on

    because otherwise it's gonna suck you up

    it's gonna discourage you and it's gonna

    in many ways it can make you bitter

    and work against what you're trying to

    do

    what about educators like who want to

    become

    better allies for historically

    marginalized and oppressed groups

    whether it's based on race

    gender religion whatever do you have

    suggestions for that

    we talk about allyship again in that

    course and the two courses that i

    that i teach and how does one become an

    ally

    i'm very much about people standing

    alongside

    others and helping them to fight

    whatever fight they need to fight

    because i think sometimes particularly

    since we're talking about race

    what usually happened with many of our

    white allies

    they don't know how to balance taking

    the initiative

    versus seeking counsel that they are

    attempting to help

    and so i think part of that has to do

    with

    people just want to jump in and go and

    some of that has to do a little bit with

    privilege and that

    you know white folks can can do a lot

    without much consequence but

    black folks we have to be strategic and

    things of that sort so when we look at

    the civil rights movement

    even when we look at the black panther

    party or the nation of islam

    very strategic and when white folk were

    welcome to assist they were informed in

    how to do that and so i think nowadays

    some people tend to just jump out there

    and go and that can be very detrimental

    to the cause

    or you can slow up the process so one of

    the things that i

    often talk about is saying hey with an

    ally it's about standing firm

    next to alongside these individuals

    and being there for whatever support

    they need

    and being able to be adaptive

    flexible but also the other piece of is

    being willing to just listen

    yeah and i think that's really hard for

    people to do

    especially when they've always had voice

    yeah

    one of the things that i actually sort

    of

    really tagged into a fellow white

    colleague

    in music education she's no longer with

    us but

    i said you know one of the most

    frustrating

    pieces about social justice work

    especially in music education is that

    many of the white

    academic scholars in music air

    they're just talking and talking for us

    you never asked us what we wanted

    it's like building a playground in the

    community

    without ever asking the community what

    it wants

    but yet you go and you put up tennis

    courts and

    ultimate frisbee frisbee equipment and

    things like that so when that's not even

    things that they're interested in and

    you wonder why those things were

    abandoned

    it is because you never asked so i would

    say

    one balance taking initiative

    and seeking counsel

    to listen and

    three i would say which is

    even more important is staying

    when it becomes uncomfortable and

    i'm finding that a lot of my white

    colleagues tend to

    sort of turn it off when it's

    uncomfortable well

    white folks have light switches right in

    this instance you can turn it off and

    turn it on

    and you can leave the room and take a

    break and

    you know press pause but my thing is

    like

    stay even when it's uncomfortable

    even when you feel like dang

    what am i here for at the end of the day

    you have to understand it's not about

    you we're

    not here to attack white folks we're

    here to attack the system

    and to combat the system and a very

    thing that has oppressed us and has

    created

    has allowed racism to be america's most

    successful story

    yeah but it feels like attacking white

    people because the system was designed

    to privilege

    and elevate white people so like it's

    this conflation it's like look we're not

    attacking you as an individual we're

    attacking the system and yes it's

    helping you

    but it's also really messing up other

    communities

    and putting them at disadvantages yeah

    so

    those are just three things you know

    balancing initiative and

    seeking counsel two silence

    three stay in it do not leave

    that's one of the things that killed

    michael butera

    besides what he said in nafta

    i don't know if you recall what he

    mentioned in a meeting he was the former

    president of nathan yeah which is the

    national association for music education

    it's like equivalent to csta and

    basically he said that

    was it a black and latinx kids can't

    make music as well on like piano and

    guitar i think

    as white kids and music theory yeah

    when they for him to ask for him to

    clarify that and to

    engage in conversation about it he got

    up and left yeah like physically left

    the room

    yeah and maybe that's like a totally

    different situation but

    i guess the point i'm making is that you

    know whatever you say

    or whatever is said in the space

    you know don't get up and leave because

    you're uncomfortable

    but you have to remember that people of

    color are uncomfortable 24

    in a leap year we don't we don't get a

    chance to

    turn it off or to damn it right and two

    a lot of people here even in these

    courses

    white students it's hard for some reason

    it's challenging for many of them to

    understand

    these simple what i believe to be simple

    things

    and maybe it's because their privilege

    and even their white fragility

    gets in the way and i've learned to

    address it but i'll say you know what

    okay it's not about you

    it really isn't about you and

    it's tough in the course that i teach

    because i'm like

    my colleagues and i in this university

    we have four to five years

    to equip you with as many tools beyond

    just teaching music concepts

    to guide into the profession and to

    provide a socially just

    learning space for the students you will

    engage

    and if i am not on my game and

    being as tough on you as possible not

    for the sake of being tough

    but to create scenarios that forces you

    to think

    and forces you to be outside of your

    comfort zone whatever that might be

    if i don't do that then i fail and i'm

    just as guilty as the system itself

    many students they squirm in the class

    a lot because i just i feel like so many

    people have waited on us to get this

    thing right

    for decades for centuries and we have

    yet to step

    up to the plate to do it and i just

    don't want to be a part of the problem

    yeah i know there's this interesting

    phenomenon that i've kind of

    just been aware of in the last decade or

    so is

    conversations about race typically

    happen

    from one white person to another white

    person but not necessarily

    a white person with a person of color

    and it is

    just it kind of fascinating that like

    all of a sudden as soon as

    like a black person walks in the room oh

    can't talk about that subject area

    it's like well why not yeah

    why is it all of a sudden that you're

    avoiding the topic and you're only

    talking to people

    who aren't experiencing systemic racism

    and whatnot

    or it's another way too folks are

    looking for

    people of color to clean the mess up

    you've also mentioned like several

    scholars and whatnot do you have any

    others in particular that you want to

    mention i've really been digging into

    adrian dixon's work recently

    some of that has to do with the fact

    that i've had the opportunity and the

    pleasure

    of working alongside her she's an

    excellent

    scholar she does a lot of man wonderful

    things in new orleans

    she's from new orleans her first degree

    was actually in music

    she went to an hbcu southern university

    but her work has to do with critical

    race theory

    topics on race racism culturally

    relevant pedagogy

    she just wrote this well not just wrote

    i just discovered

    it which i'm kind of mad that i'm just

    now

    reading it but she's written so much

    stuff

    it's this uh piece she wrote called

    expanding the metaphor

    jazz says portraiture or something like

    that it was written in 2005

    and she uses jazz as a means to

    talk about hegemonic structures but she

    talks about

    jazz as a pool of methodology and

    research

    on issues of race and racism it's it's a

    cool

    piece man she's just brilliant and by

    the way

    most of the things that i'm mentioning

    at least for

    me as a scholar the work outside of

    music education

    in places like sociology education

    those are the places where i get my

    inspiration from

    and where i get a lot of resources from

    because i feel like even though there's

    some good work done in music education

    it's no shade to our

    profession but it is what it is right a

    lot of it seems to be

    sort of flushed out or thinned out by

    the time it

    gets to music ed and by the time it

    comes to our profession

    it's a day later in a dollar short yeah

    same with computer science

    okay okay yeah adrian dixon

    did i mention kevin brown he's at

    indiana university

    in the school of law he does some stuff

    even though it's within the framing of

    law

    it's still pretty dog unimpressive and

    still

    powerful check out amir baraka

    i try to read various things outside of

    music education those are the things

    that seem to

    really really get me going yeah i'm the

    same way on the podcast i've recommended

    several times to read outside of the

    field

    like you mentioned sociology so when

    you're talking about adrian dixon you

    mentioned

    hegemonic influences or hegemony so for

    people who like

    haven't read foucault and like don't

    know what the structure of structures is

    like

    what how would you describe hegemony

    to me when i look at it's like how

    it is a structure that is completely

    dominated by

    a particular group not just group of

    people but how

    how they think how they act

    so one of the examples that i use when i

    go out and i'm talking to like various

    music ed students at different

    universities

    i talk about believe it or not the lord

    of the rings

    the shire and i promise you i'm going

    it's going to make sense

    but you know for those of us who have

    seen the lord of the rings of the hobbit

    you know when we think about the shire

    you know

    just imagine that place imagine the

    people

    imagining the sort of interactions that

    take place

    the buildings the shapes the knobs of

    the doors the height of the homes

    that space was built with a certain

    people

    in mind and not just with them in mind

    so that they can be successful

    in that space well if you recall

    them i figured which sequel it was but

    gandalf

    which was the great wizard he comes to

    visit bilbo and bilbo has the ring

    well bilbo lives in a home in the shire

    and once gandalf enters into his home

    what happens gandalf is trying to

    situate himself in that very small space

    why because it wasn't built with him in

    mind right

    you know he's walking through he bust

    his head on the

    ceiling and the chandelier and he's

    trying to you know

    get some sort of sense of where he is

    and how to negotiate it

    to me that's what it is not only was it

    created with the certain people in mind

    by the individuals themselves but it is

    maintained in a way so that those

    individuals alone

    solely will benefit and be successful

    anyone else outside of that it's not

    built for you

    and so i think that's the trouble with

    education

    when we look at our music programs

    whether they be

    k through 12 or undergraduate or

    graduate

    degree programs all these things were

    built

    with a particular group of people in

    mind

    right it's funny people like i wonder

    why you know certain students just can't

    make it in here

    and i want to raise my hand every time

    and say uh duh

    because this was built for people like

    you

    right and so for like computer science

    people an example of this

    it's talked about in relation to like

    algorithmic bias

    so hegemony like in terms of

    facial recognition designed by white

    people for white people

    works for white people but then as soon

    as like a black person uses

    facial recognition technology the like

    the success rate drops to like

    the teens or 10 percent in terms of like

    how well it can work or even just like

    little stuff like

    being able to turn on and off like a

    water faucet using infrared technology

    like

    those were all designed for certain

    kinds of peoples

    and excluded others either intentionally

    or unintentionally

    through the bias in the algorithm it's

    funny you talking about that in terms of

    technology and computers

    i just started reading this book that

    adrian dixon

    suggested it's called race after

    technology

    abolitionist tools for the new gym code

    it's by

    ruja benjamin i just started reading

    that it's a fascinating book

    and it's talking about all these how

    these various sorts of computers and

    software and social media it's

    crazy i'm always into reading stuff

    outside of music ed

    because it forces me or anybody else to

    think about what we're doing in a much

    broader

    more creative way what other

    research do you wish there was out there

    that could like help you

    or just inform your own practices like

    what's missing

    it's hard to say because so much is

    missing

    matter of fact i was talking with a good

    buddy of mine

    who is the sociologist but she's also a

    secret service

    she works with the secret service and we

    were talking about

    missing information or should i say it

    was it's not missing it's just

    hidden like i'm working on a piece right

    now

    called straight no chaser and unsung

    blues well actually i'm not working on

    it i

    submitted it to the critical race theory

    handbook that adrian dixon and

    marvin lynn are editing the second

    edition

    and i talk about the missing voice and

    i talk about how i define an unsung

    blues

    in that piece it's like people are able

    to tell the stories of others

    and these stories don't even belong to

    them you know and so there's an

    injustice in that

    and the lack of scholarship period about

    people of color

    it is unreal of the

    lack of just stories

    about black folks and other people of

    color and music

    it is unreal like all the stuff that i'm

    talking about and i talked about in this

    conversation

    i learned in the last few years of my

    career

    i didn't learn it in k-12 i didn't learn

    it in my undergrad

    because it wasn't a part of the

    curriculum or even my master's

    there's so much missing and i think too

    all this has to do with ethics it's

    hugely unethical

    it is hypocritical all those things and

    here's the thing too who's gonna do the

    work right

    i think i'm one of nine black music kid

    at any predominantly white institution

    in the country

    and not all of us do the same work

    so there will always be until music

    education

    and education in general begin to

    seriously and intently commit themselves

    to

    real anti-racist work white folks will

    always tell our stories

    white people will always do the

    anti-racist work to work on race and

    racism

    and the stories will always come up

    short there will always

    be lack of nuance yeah i'm working on a

    project for the state of wyoming for the

    wind river

    reservation that has the northern or

    april and eastern shoshone

    tribes on there and the amount of stuff

    that i've learned in the last few months

    that i did not learn in school it's

    appalling

    and to see people online complaining

    about oh well you're tearing down

    statues you're getting rid of her

    history and it's like

    you have no idea how ironic that sounds

    considering the amount of whitewashing

    we have done

    and the amount of stories that have been

    just like completely erased from

    history in the last few hundred years

    it's unreal this country has been one of

    the most successful colonizers

    in modern history i mean i mean really

    and like you said people have the

    audacity to say why are you tearing down

    christopher columbus well first off he

    didn't discover anything

    well he didn't cover america just the

    narrative and the

    values and ideals that they supported

    contradict what we claim today to be

    important

    you know this idea of inclusivity and

    equality and you know equitable access

    so it's it's unreal jared yeah and the

    colonization is not just like colonizing

    the physical location and people

    it's like the epistemological the

    ontological

    the axiological like sort of the ways of

    knowing the ways of being and the

    like the values that people have like

    that form of colonization

    that people don't seem to think about

    enough

    yeah i'll sing you this clip but it's

    it's titled we can't win

    and it's an interview of this woman

    speaking to the protest the looting and

    the writing

    and she's talking about she's she's

    actually really talking about

    agility her example of it she's talking

    about rosewood and tulsa and how

    you know black wall street was literally

    just bombed

    to hell and every sort of

    big movement if you will on the behalf

    of black folks towards

    you know justice in this country has

    been bombed

    or has been put to good put

    by white terrorist organizations or even

    the government

    she talks about this within the context

    of the game monopoly

    and when i tell you she was brilliant

    explaining that and i'm like for anybody

    who has

    who sees this and if you walk away like

    you know completely you have no idea

    what she was talking about

    you should just go to sleep forever

    because

    she did an excellent job of explaining

    hegemony within america

    and she said you know the thing is when

    we came to this country

    you know we weren't allowed to play the

    game matter of fact everything was

    was taken away from us our stories our

    sense of belonging

    our language our means to communicate

    our sense

    our value our sense of being human

    right because it was all to restructure

    the frame of mind

    for us thinking of ourselves as property

    and then

    you have the reconstruction the

    reconstruction field emancipation

    proclamation all that stuff

    but then so we are quote-unquote allowed

    to play the game

    but we don't own anything because we're

    essentially playing for other people

    and when we win whatever we have in our

    pockets we have to give to the people

    so we have nothing it's insidious

    it was a doctoral student here well not

    was he still work i think he's working

    on his dissertation and music ed

    we were reading i think a piece by

    adrian dixon

    caused locking the doors before we have

    the keys

    or something like that but it had to do

    with post katrina

    and education in new orleans with the

    charter schools

    and she used critical race theory as a

    framework to look at these

    events and so on and so forth well

    this student white student who's also a

    member of the lgbtq plus community

    he was so shocked and taken back

    after reading it because he had never

    really read up on how people use

    critical race theory

    to really highlight how truly

    insidious racism has been used

    to suppress people of color he had no

    idea

    how diabolical people really are and how

    people use education

    as a means to put money in their pocket

    and to further oppress other folks

    yeah he was just i wish you could have

    seen his face he was

    literally speechless in doctoral seminar

    yeah it's one of those things where once

    your eyes have been opened

    to the systems of oppression and

    violence just you can't close them again

    and you can't unsee what you see and

    as somebody who researches this

    day in and day out and talks about the

    very heavy topics and then

    lives a double conscious life like how

    do you

    take care of yourself and like prevent

    that burnout and the

    just overwhelm or frustration that can

    come with that

    listen had i known about the burnout and

    about the

    sort of hurt or bitterness or

    ups and downs that i would have to

    endure not to say that i would not do

    this work

    but i would have tried to plan early on

    it's rough i have to say it's one thing

    to live it

    but then to live it and also research it

    and it be on your laptop

    in front of you you're living your life

    but you're also looking at the lives of

    others

    and all these injustices when i was

    writing my dissertation

    it was one of the most challenging

    things i had done in my life and i've

    done a lot of

    stuff my dissertation was qualitative so

    i had a lot of interviews so it's one

    thing to sit there

    and to engage in conversation with the

    participants in the study

    but it's another thing to constantly sit

    there with the data

    and it's in your hands and it's it's

    also a part of you

    it's like living a bad dream over and

    over i've found some

    ways to deal with it one is that

    when i'm done for the day i'm done for

    the day and i've just recently

    been doing this within the last two

    years

    i think being organized and having a set

    schedule

    helps and also you know

    getting sleep exercising and these would

    seem like

    pretty standard things to do but some of

    this work is so crippling

    that you don't even want to wake up and

    do it some of my colleagues through

    nafme national association for music

    education

    their organization some people contacted

    me about doing some work this summer

    like webinars i'm talking racing music

    education

    and i turned down every last one of

    those

    for my health because i needed a break

    in some way shape or form it's real like

    this work is heavy yeah and you don't

    have like you said you don't have that

    light switch because

    one you live it and then two it's your

    career like

    it's just a constant thing yeah it

    really is

    and you know i'm actually pretty new

    i'm quote unquote a young scholar in

    comparison to

    others who have been in the field for a

    while or junior scholar

    in comparison to someone like dr gloria

    lackson billings or

    delgado or sterlizano and so

    one of the things i've been doing is

    surrounding myself with

    folks who do this work but who also

    who negotiate similar obstacles daily

    so that i can ask questions like how is

    it that you are able to do this and

    surprisingly i'm still able to smile

    you know what i'm saying like and

    especially now every day

    every day is something every day is

    this black person over here was hung or

    you know this person was shot and killed

    shots in the back and or you got

    you know a university who has hidden

    away has protected this particular

    professor

    who is a racist and yada yada yada but

    that's part of the reason why i truly am

    so honored to know somebody like adrian

    dixon

    because she intentionally and

    purposefully

    makes it so that scholars like myself

    can be supported by folks like her

    like she'll have weekend writing

    workshops and she'll invite me over

    or like she's inviting me to do projects

    with her and it's just nice because i

    can ask questions and say how do you do

    this

    how is it how is it that you're able to

    crack jokes

    i mean i still crack jokes and i'm not

    trying to say that

    no one should do this work but it is

    tough and it's hard

    to really do the self-care thing or to

    even

    share what it's like with your

    colleagues i'm the only black person in

    my department and

    one of five in the school of music here

    one of the reasons why i love to ask

    this question on the podcast because

    it's something that people need to talk

    about more and it's something that we

    need to get comfortable with like my

    wife is a

    music therapist in a children's hospital

    and like maybe on average one or two

    kids a week

    die and she's in the room and provides

    therapy to the family

    after the death etc so like to kind of

    have that kind of heaviness

    you need to have some methods or tools

    to

    kind of process emotions or stress

    or whatever and i just think it's an

    important thing that more people need to

    talk about

    so i'm grateful that you shared that

    yeah absolutely

    every day is a shock to me that i'm

    still

    here not to say that i'm gonna you know

    take my life because

    i know there are people who struggle

    with that reality

    every day i'm just shocked that i'm

    still

    doing this because the reality of it

    is racism is going to exist for a very

    very long time

    for centuries after we have departed

    this world

    and i know that to be true but yet i'm

    still

    here doing the work and so there's no

    end goal for me

    there are scientists who can actually

    create the cure for cancer

    right but racism there's no end goal

    right now

    and so it's all about doing what we can

    in however many ways we can

    to one really stand up to it and call it

    for what it is but to also

    start really attacking this thing

    so i that's why i'm shocked i'm still

    here because there are days that

    jared i do want to give up there are

    some days where i'm like man i wish i

    could write about

    quarter notes and

    and note vibrations and intonation

    you know but but then i tell myself

    either i found this or this work found

    me i don't know

    which one it is but i'm here nonetheless

    it's a hard road man so thinking broadly

    are there any questions either for

    myself or for other educators or

    researchers that you have

    you know i'm always curious and maybe

    this is not a question for you maybe

    it's a question for

    all of us what are people's true

    motivations

    for for what they do every day

    and that's one of the things that has

    helped me

    to to sort of stick around is to

    understand people's motivations

    for doing what they do and the work that

    they do

    and so i'm just wondering how people

    manage how people stay afloat

    in all this and maybe that's like a

    question for us to think about

    sometimes i feel like i have nothing to

    suggest

    except just hold on everybody just hold

    on

    yeah no that's that's definitely a good

    question to reflect on

    so where might people go to connect with

    you in the organizations that you work

    with

    okay i've been working on this chair

    because people have been asking me how

    do i connect with you

    and i've been terrible about having you

    know

    things online so i actually have a

    website

    if you want to check out my website it's

    joyce mccall.com

    i just started putting things up

    eventually i'll start a podcast

    my email address here at the university

    is

    jmmccal

    illinois.edu if you go to my website

    you know bear with me don't laugh

    it looks okay but it's coming along and

    i actually have a tab on there that says

    part of my progress so

    bear with me and with that that

    concludes this week's episode of the

    cska podcast

    i hope you enjoyed listening to this

    episode and just as a friendly reminder

    go to the show notes

    and you will find plenty of links to

    papers and scholars

    who are writing more about critical race

    theory double consciousness

    and many other topics that were

    discussed in this particular episode

    stay tuned next week for

    another unpacking scholarship episode

    where i will talk about

    cs education research and its

    implications in the classroom

    and then two weeks from now which will

    be another interview i hope you're all

    staying safe and are having a wonderful

    week

Guest Bio

Joyce McCall was appointed to the faculty of the University of Illinois  in 2018. She teaches undergraduate and graduate courses including transformative topics in music education, social transformation, technology, and music, social foundations in music education, and jazz methods. Prior to her appointment, she served as a postdoctoral resident scholar and visiting assistant professor in music education at the Indiana University Jacobs School of Music. McCall also served as an assistant band director at MacArthur High School in Houston, Texas, and a woodwind and marching band specialist in Alabama, Arizona, and Mississippi.

McCall earned a Ph.D. in Music Education from Arizona State University, and a Master of Music Education and Bachelor of Music in Clarinet Performance from The University of Southern Mississippi. Her research—positioned within the context of frameworks like critical race theory and double consciousness theory—centers on how race, class, and culture impact educational equity in music education. Additionally, she examines how certain pedagogies such as culturally relevant teaching influences possibilities to engage among minoritized racial populations in the music classroom and beyond. She has presented sessions and research at the American Educators Research Association, the Midwest Band and Orchestra Clinic, the National Association for Music Education, and the Society for Music Teacher Education, and published articles in the Journal of Music Teacher Education and the Pennsylvania Music Educators Association News. Her latest book chapter, “Speak No Evil: Talking Race as an African American in Music Education,” has served as a critical tool in music toward empowering scholars of color and inspiring anti-racist work.

McCall has proudly served as a clarinetist and saxophonist in the United States Army Bands from 1999 to 2013. During her service, she was awarded the Army Achievement Medal, the National Defense Service Medal, and the Global War on Terrorism Service Medal. Previous assignments include the 151st Army Band in Montgomery, Alabama; the 41st Army Band in Jackson, Mississippi; the 36th Infantry Division Band in Austin, Texas; and the 108th Army Band in Phoenix, Arizona. She is a member of Sigma Alpha Iota International Music Fraternity for Women.


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