Decolonizing Education through SEL and PBL with Matinga Ragatz

In this interview with Matinga Ragatz, we discuss Matinga’s journey into education, creating environments where kids can learn through struggle, the importance of social and emotional learning (SEL), how schools promote individualism and exceptionalism, the intersections of project-based learning and SEL, decolonizing education, the importance of shared values in education, and so much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    csk8 podcast my name is Jared O'Leary

    each week of this podcast is either a

    solo episode where I unpack some

    scholarship in relation to Computer

    Science Education or an interview with a

    guest or multiple guests in this week's

    episode I'm interviewing matinga regetts

    we discuss matinga's journey into

    education trading environments where

    kids can learn through struggle

    importance of social and emotional

    learning SEL all schools promote

    individualism and exceptionalism the

    intersections of project-based learning

    and SEL decolonizing education the

    importance of shared values in education

    and so much more as always you can find

    show notes at gerardleary.com or by

    clicking the link in the app that you're

    listening to the song you'll notice

    there that this app is powered by boot

    up which is the non-profit that I work

    for where I create 100 free Elementary

    coding curriculum and we provide paid

    professional development so check out

    boot.pd.org if you're interested in

    either of those and check out

    jaredolear.com which has hundreds if not

    thousands of resources for CS Educators

    as well as a bunch of drumming and

    gaming content but with all that being

    said we will now begin with an

    introduction by matinga hello my name is

    matinga I'm an instructional education

    specialist I am a vintage educator and

    one of my loves and one of my passion is

    to really change the way education is

    being imparted or delivered to students

    and really changed the way students see

    themselves so I come from a long line of

    techies and Educators and one of my

    goals today is to share my work with you

    and to share my passion as well it's

    interesting so how did you get into the

    field of Education it sounds like you

    might have some relatives who have been

    in it most likely my mother was an

    educator in fact my mother was the first

    person in her country and you'll hear my

    world accent I am from Central West

    Africa and so she was the first woman to

    complete a college degree and she became

    a teacher and that kind of coded my life

    but I did not want to be a teacher I

    really didn't then education for me was

    a pothole on the road so I basically

    fell telling it I was on my way to law

    school you know when you're from a West

    African tradition your parents kind of

    dictate where you go and where you land

    and I was coming to the United States to

    do an international law career but then

    you come to the United States and you

    realize people don't listen to their

    parents here it's an option I'm cheating

    all right and so I was like wow that's

    the thing and it was very simple I you

    know on my way to law school both my

    husband and I wanted to go to grad

    school he wanted to do his PhD I wanted

    to go law school but then he got a

    chance to go first because he got

    accepted first and I'm like hey you know

    I'll do something easy like you know go

    become the teacher and first of all it

    wasn't that easy number two number one

    and number two was that I found that I

    was good at it so I slowly but surely

    start forgetting my law Journey which I

    wasn't very passionate about after a

    bunch of internships and things like

    that I wasn't very passionate about it

    so that's how I ended up in education

    yeah what subjects did you teach I was a

    social studies and World Language

    teacher so social studies I taught

    anything from government U.S government

    Civics my favorite was Global Studies of

    course world history and I taught

    Spanish that's interesting it would be

    really neat to work with an educator in

    like government in particular talking

    about social studies and government who

    had a perspective outside of the us all

    the teachers that I could think of they

    were born and raised in the U.S and so

    they didn't have perspectives beyond

    that you know that sprinkled some spice

    in my Global studies class

    the things that we got up to and again

    my own way of teaching and learning also

    had a lot to do with that but my Global

    Studies was definitely multi-perspective

    I have an international background my

    parents were diplomats and so we

    traveled they had a assignment in

    different countries every few years and

    so I traveled and so whether it's East

    Asia whether it was Africa whether it's

    Latin America so I brought that to my

    classroom yeah multi-perspectalism

    really resonates with me I've talked

    about it quite a bit on this podcast how

    it informed my own approach to teaching

    to research Etc like it's really

    important for like people to read

    outside of the field to get perspectives

    beyond what they are typically hearing

    within like dominant discoursing

    whatever subject area they're in 100 and

    you know the answer is in that

    intersection because we don't have the

    answer they don't have the answer

    somewhere in the middle there is and so

    this is where I think innovators come in

    where I saw something in Japan I am

    looking at something in America going

    wow can we just kind of marry those two

    together and also boom there's an

    innovation does that make sense yeah

    definitely I'm curious about like

    catalysts or impact stories so can you

    tell me a story about like an experience

    in education that has had an impact on

    you or resonated with you oh it's not so

    much a story as it is an

    autobiographical confession yeah I was a

    terrible student I was a terrible

    student I struggled through school

    insanely dyslexic today I would have

    been probably diagnosed ADHD I was quote

    the creative child all right and I

    struggled through school past because I

    had an African mother and there was no

    other option but I struggled hated

    school but here's the thing I was a

    terrible student but I knew I was a

    really good learner and so for me I

    always felt like listen because of my

    dyslexia I can't do air math so if you

    say what's three times twelve I don't

    know in fact I'm gonna duck out of the

    way of that air math but if you give me

    a pencil I can probably out Matthew

    right and so I always felt as a learner

    that man if they would only just let me

    show them how I understand what they're

    trying to tell me rather than trying to

    tell me how to tell them how I

    understand it that was the always

    struggles like yeah let me just show you

    what I know and I never had the

    opportunity to show people what I knew

    until College that's when I became

    interested in my own learning and

    understood that there was nothing wrong

    with my brain it was just the way that I

    was being taught yeah of course that

    just changed everything for me so I just

    dedicated the career to created

    environments and conditions where kids

    like me could find a way to show what

    they know without the teacher telling

    them all the time this is very much so a

    generalization so it doesn't apply to

    every use case but I've found in general

    that some of the best teachers are the

    ones who struggled the most with

    learning that subject area because they

    know what it's like to work through it

    and how to do it and some of the worst

    teachers I've had are the ones who just

    like resonated for them immediately they

    got it and they didn't have to work

    through that struggle and so therefore

    they couldn't really understand and

    relate to the students who were

    struggling and figure out how to help

    them out 100 and this is you know one of

    the highlights of social emotional

    learning right it's just really

    providing in an environment where the

    student can go through the struggle

    whatever struggle it is rather than

    somebody just kind of guiding you and

    you just following because you're a good

    follower then you become a good student

    because you're good at following

    instruction rather than because you're a

    good learner or you've really improved

    as a human being and let's double click

    on that so what is social emotional

    learning and why would it be important

    for educators social emotional learning

    it's got a bad rap I think in the past

    really took hold in education has become

    this Kumbaya let's do yoga which is

    fantastic and then in our book Mike and

    I talk about you know there's like

    different levels of social emotional

    learning and so for us like level one is

    that you know control your anger that

    self-control but we really want to talk

    about like the level three where it's

    transformative there are competencies

    that are going to change the way you see

    yourself as a learner and so we

    specifically are using the castle

    competencies they don't necessarily have

    a corner market on the social emotional

    learning that framework really resonated

    with us and basically our goal is to

    ensure that students have good

    self-awareness they have good

    self-management skills social awareness

    skills good relationship skills and

    ultimately in order to have good and

    responsible decisions to make good

    responsible decisions so that's all for

    us or at least the social emotional

    competencies is not something that you

    teach so much is something that you or

    crumbs that you leave in the way so that

    students can pick them up and make it

    their own with the goal of one being

    able to just become better more

    productive for human beings rather than

    just do a yoga pose or take time out I

    did yoga yesterday so that definitely

    resonates with my wife it's great you

    know I love doing yoga and that's my

    happy place sometimes but it's not all

    of it right yeah my first therapist that

    I went to this was over a decade ago

    like had me do you yoga twice a day an

    hour each and that coupled with some

    like other things and talking through

    issues like really helped me so much one

    of the things that also I think really

    resonates with me about SEL is it's not

    just about so that you as an individual

    can become better but so you can also

    empathize with others and learn how to

    communicate with people and that's

    something that I feel is strongly

    lacking in adults right now when it

    comes to anything charged or political

    like we need to be able to have a

    discussion about stuff we might disagree

    with strongly on 100 percent and my

    focus when I design educational programs

    is this idea that the self-awareness is

    the center of a child's learning and you

    want to spend as much time as you can in

    that self-awareness place which is scary

    to some right making a child aware of

    their identity and how their identity

    relates to Authority and how the

    identity makes interact with the world

    interact with authority interact with

    their siblings interact with their

    parents and so the most important thing

    that you can do besides just teaching

    your children to have like really you

    know good physical hygiene is good

    emotional hygiene yeah I mean we

    understand how much more healthy we are

    when we do the physical hygiene but we

    do not ensure that our students have

    that emotional hygiene which is you know

    understand who you are and how you roll

    interacts with the world and as a

    teacher I can just see how you roll and

    I can help you and teach you manage how

    you roll does that make sense yeah

    definitely so my wife is a therapist and

    she works right now with kids who have

    experienced extreme forms of trauma and

    trying to help them develop coping

    skills to be able to work through that

    trauma rather than turning into

    methamphetamine they can instead turn to

    creative arts therapies to try and help

    them process things and like from a

    Buddhist perspective this is my own lens

    like being able to sit with that pain

    and be able to observe it and not have

    it control you and whatnot I know it's

    difficult like having those skills to be

    able to be aware enough to understand

    the pains that are negatively impacting

    you and still be able to come out on top

    without turning into a substances is key

    yeah 100 it's not just the idea of

    sitting quietly with an issue education

    especially you can layer that because

    it's not just sitting quietly with an

    issue but really understanding how that

    issue that you're having affects others

    yeah right one of the things that in my

    designs in my education designs in my

    school in Tanzania for example we are

    really changing the way that we approach

    learning so some might call it

    decolonizing the African education but

    the idea that education is not for you

    alone right in the colonial system or

    the post-colonial system that we're now

    practicing you are going to be

    successful you are going to college you

    are going to be blah blah it's all about

    your journey and we're gonna trying to

    change that to back to our ancestry

    where it was very much about what you

    can contribute to the community and we

    really feel that having that

    individualistic type of learning where

    it's all about you and all about your a

    and all about your paper really

    contributes to a belligerent Society

    because you become selfish and you're

    always struggling to keep that what is

    yours right rather than building a

    community and people who build a

    community and participate in building

    the community do not destroy that

    community and those are things that in

    the African culture you can see in

    cultures that are you know just

    naturalistic this idea of preserving

    Community is about preserving Natures

    about the community preserving each

    other's about the community everything

    is about the community and the wealth of

    the community and so we're introducing

    social emotional learning and social

    awareness not so that you can become a

    better person yourself but so that you

    can become a better Community member as

    well yeah that is so interesting I

    hadn't thought of how the schools and

    the systems like the formalized

    education is contributing to I would

    think the exception as an individualism

    that is pervasive in the US one of the

    things that really bothered me with

    covid was we focus so much on my rights

    over helping other people just by

    wearing a mask like a very simple act

    that you can do to protect others and

    thinking about the communities that you

    live in but instead focusing on yourself

    as an individual and that individual

    dualism I think really negatively

    impacted a lot of communities because a

    lot of people died or got really sick

    and have long-term effects because of

    that individualism I hadn't thought

    about how it relates to schools it is

    very much something that we learn in

    schools these normative cultural

    exceptionalism and that's a very much of

    Euro thinking where you know we have to

    be exceptional and the only way to be

    exceptional is so for example to raise

    children and we are always worshiping at

    their feet oh you're awesome you're

    great here's a million pictures of you

    but really what you're doing is you're

    setting up this child for a life where

    they don't get to experience

    disappointment and pick themselves up

    right and so it's so we're trying to

    just kind of deconstruct that and get to

    okay so what is it that kids need

    especially kids who are furthest from

    opportunity what do they need in order

    for them to be able to compete with

    their Western counterparts that's the

    base of my research when it comes to

    this school yeah can we elaborate on

    what you have been doing in Tanzania and

    malaba it's very exciting my school is

    called Kia k i a Kia Learning House Kia

    stands for Kilimanjaro international

    airport it's our school is just a few

    miles away from the Kilimanjaro airport

    and a few miles away from the mountain

    itself in that area is called Kia so

    basically there we have a food science

    project-based learning school and we

    came up with the idea of Food Science

    because when we were first looking at

    the community trying to find property to

    create a school the kids in this

    community had obvious signs of

    malnutrition not malnutrition because

    they did not get enough to eat which was

    also part of it but also because they

    had like a mono diet always eating the

    same thing so scabs in their head they

    had signs and so when we talked to our

    nutritionist friends we're like you know

    there are some things we can do and so

    we started this food science school so

    that kids would learn how to you know

    just kind of multiply their diet and

    actually be sustainable our school we're

    trying our hardest to become sustainable

    because as we are seeing our own world

    change because of climate change places

    like Tanzania places like where kids

    where people are really really poor

    they're the first ones to feel it so we

    are really proud when you go to

    Instagram and you see our just beautiful

    green vegetables and places where you

    know it's very dry in places where

    agriculture is not really a thing we are

    among the Maasai masaya very much about

    cattle farmers and not soil Farmers but

    we are using permaculture and a lot of

    the ancestral information and

    intelligence and wisdom to create new

    ways of using food as a resource and

    we're teaching kids as young as five to

    understand how to find food or how to

    make your own food and not have to wait

    until some organization comes and brings

    a bag of rice or a bag of grain it's

    interesting one of the things I like to

    reflect on is like how different

    teaching contexts and experiences that

    I've had kind of inform the ones that

    come after that whether it's like having

    worked with kindergarten how that

    informed my graduate teaching and then

    how The Graduate teaching is informed

    like working with like kindergarten

    students Etc I'm curious like how have

    these experiences and like the school

    like in Tanzania informed your own

    understanding of Education again it's a

    collection of you know experiential

    research as well my dissertation was

    about how tech savvy teachers use the

    smartphone for professional development

    simply because I was using my smartphone

    I still do this is how I do professional

    Watling for my teachers at Tanzania we

    just use WhatsApp and airpod and the

    smartphone and how we were doing that

    and it's just kind of that simple

    activity where you take a tool that is

    not necessarily used or you take an area

    of the world that may or may not have

    professional development opportunities

    and when this tool you can completely

    change the way this teacher thinks or

    she can inform your learning herself

    through this tool so I feel like what

    what has changed my mind is how

    education is a tool right it's a tool

    that needs to change with the times it's

    a tool that needs to change with the

    environment you cannot serve the same

    portion the same exact meal everywhere

    you go which is what the colonial

    education did in Africa where you know

    this is what we're doing in Europe we're

    just going to do it in your school and

    we see that also in the United States

    where people who write the curriculum

    have no clue where their curriculum is

    going to land and how it's going to

    affect those communities yeah and it's

    just mind-boggling that we're still

    feeling like some lady in some suburb

    sitting in her backyard writing

    curriculum is doing the right thing for

    a child living in the inner city

    struggling with you know environmental

    racism because the water that comes from

    her sink is brown does that make sense

    yes it definitely makes sense and so as

    Educators especially because we don't

    tend to come from where our students you

    know the background of our students is

    rarely the those of the teachers if you

    look at the percentage of white female

    teachers to other bipoc populations it's

    heavily towards the normative culture so

    how can one culture teach kids from

    other cultures without necessarily

    imparting or changing and so for

    project-based learning it makes it

    beautiful because now the students can

    bring their own voice they bring their

    own choice they bring their own culture

    into a project and still manage to meet

    those standards yes so I think it's like

    teachers are white women and so like

    that's obviously an issue when it comes

    to that but then CS has an extra layer

    of things to problematize in that some

    of the curriculum that comes from CS

    organizations are written by people who

    have never taught a day in their life

    their well-intentioned computer

    scientists and so they've just kind of

    come into it and I'm like well if this

    worked for me so this I worked for all

    these kids and so like School sign on to

    that curriculum from or whatever and

    they just don't have enough people who

    actually know how to teach and design

    lessons and so like the pedagogy is just

    questionable at best oh and not just

    that it's how does this fit in my

    universe my mom's getting beat up by

    some dude that she brought home how is

    this fitting in my universe you know it

    shakes the tree and a lot of kids drop

    out of Cs even if they would have been

    awesome at it because it does not

    connect with them yep so you mentioned

    PBO so how does project-based learning

    kind of intersect with SEL beautifully

    right because project-based learning

    really creates that context for the

    student to learn autonomously and for

    your listeners who may not be familiar

    with project-based learning you know we

    take the standards we take the learning

    goals right we then try to create a what

    we would call quote a real world don't

    call it real world around teenagers

    because they're like what am I living in

    a cartoon that kind of thing

    Maybe

    right but it allows for the students to

    role play right what it would be to be

    in the adult world so we start with some

    kind of challenging question and then

    from there we create these opportunities

    for inquiry we ensure that in PDL that

    those opportunities are authentic to the

    students not necessarily something

    they're going to learn for when they are

    older my son calls it just in case

    baggage so no what's relevant to the

    student today what skills a student can

    use to change their lives today

    opportunities for the students to have a

    voice and by having a voice meaning like

    taking that voice and bringing it in

    front of a real audience and not an

    audience of their people who may or may

    not be experts in that and opportunities

    to reflect opportunities to have peer

    review expert review community members

    and partnership reviews and of course an

    opportunity to share your work with

    others project-based learning your work

    doesn't end up lining the garbage can of

    your your teacher at the end of the term

    it ends up affecting someone somewhere I

    mean honestly I think that's all we want

    to do when we are here on Earth right is

    just to shift the needle in some way

    except now you get to do it when you're

    six years old and start getting in the

    habit that you are meaningful and

    valuable member of some Society

    somewhere right one of the questions

    that I've asked a couple of guests in

    the past and I'm still thinking through

    it I'm curious what your thoughts are on

    this but when might be project-based

    learning a form of colonization like if

    we are going with standards are the

    standards a form of colonization in

    terms of colonizing ways of knowing and

    understanding and setting this is the

    direction that you should head in as a

    field or people who are studying that

    and then how might we combat that

    potential colonization through SEL or

    pbl oh wow that's such a good question

    and you know the standards are written

    like the Bible you know they're gray

    open to interpretation

    right and a lot of the really I think

    normative standards are not

    project-based a bowl you cannot create

    projects from them because they're very

    very specific like there's literature

    and all of these things like you know

    like all of the little you just cannot

    create a project around there and

    project-based learning really just kind

    of is a magnet for the standards they're

    like analyzing data you know creating

    beautiful surveys so that you can

    interview people like collect that data

    and code that data and actually be able

    to interpret that does that make sense

    and so a good Project based learning

    experience for the students just kind of

    goes towards enhancing skills rather

    than content so and sometimes the

    projects don't really look good or are

    good at the end like their final outcome

    is no good but the question is did the

    student understand the process so we

    really focus on the process and the

    process especially when you braided with

    social emotional learning is you know

    take that child from childhood to to

    adulthood in a way that they're going to

    be productive and better yet in a way

    that they're going to feel satiated with

    life in no matter where they're standing

    as opposed to this nonsense about

    happiness

    right I watched the Johnny Depp and

    Amber Heard trial and I'm looking at

    these people and they're beautiful

    they're rich they're famous but they are

    the most unhappy yeah people I've ever

    heard of right and so we are trying to

    get away from that weird American Hustle

    about happiness and making it so that

    you are satisfied with where you are in

    life because you can see that you've

    accomplished something rather than

    because I'm telling you you're smart or

    pretty which is a different way of just

    kind of teaching the same thing the same

    standard right but in a way that is more

    humanistic towards the learner rather

    than towards that test the hardest cell

    with project-based learning and social

    emotional learning because people always

    say well I don't have the time I don't

    have the time but it's kind of like

    saying I don't have a time to change a

    flat tire I'm just going to humbly

    throughout take the time you know go to

    the size of the road change that tire

    call someone if you need to but then it

    was going to smooth the row own and

    sometimes I think that we are looking

    right instead of looking left because

    the most interesting thing is as when

    the student sees themselves as a

    differently as a person as a learner

    they become interested in education they

    become better test takers because they

    really understand and they are really

    invested but if you make it so that

    you're just piling on content in the age

    of information mind you just really

    weaponizing the curriculum and you just

    drop kids kids fall through the cracks

    because you're not really addressing

    what they need which is a sherpa through

    life yeah so there are like many

    different flavors of project-based

    learning but the ones that I gravitate

    towards are the ones that focus on the

    process like you mentioned but that's

    kind of a misunderstanding that I see

    some people have with pbl is oh it's

    called Project based so the focus is on

    the outcome the product is not the point

    of it it is the process the journey

    through it so even when Mike was on the

    podcast he talked about how some of the

    failed projects were some of the best

    projects because students learned a lot

    through that process and it's life right

    Sometimes some of the most harrowing

    experiences are the ones that are the

    ones that you learn the most and because

    we're not seeking that happiness and

    that's the heavy that weird outcome like

    I'm doing this because it will make me

    happy I'll be happy once I get that job

    well when you get the job the job

    happens to be you know you hate that job

    it sucks now you're not happy I'll be

    happy when I get married I'll have you

    when I have a child there's this all

    this weird you know when I get to the

    end game that's when I'll be satiated

    we're trying to turn that around and

    saying okay what's valuable is your

    experience what's valuable it's the

    steps that you took to grow and that ABC

    they're just letters because grade

    should be for like meat and not for

    human beings human children I heard with

    some Olympic athletes they get the gold

    and then afterwards they feel lost in

    life like they don't have anything else

    to accomplish and so like there's this

    like postpartum depression that can come

    with achieving that great thing after

    they've done it they're like well now

    what and I don't know about for you but

    when I finished and defended my

    dissertation I felt the same way and

    that I was like what is the big thing

    that is driving me and so like I turned

    to Community Support like I helped out

    with habitat through Humanity like

    building houses and things like that but

    does that resonate with you did you feel

    something similar when you finished or

    anything to anybody because I was just

    kind of like I felt literally like I

    moved Bones from one grave and put them

    in the other great exercise but I really

    did not teach much considering that

    nobody's going to read research but one

    of the things that I can come away from

    it saying you know what I understand

    research much different so now when I'm

    teaching project learning and we're

    talking about sending children into a

    research mode or and having the students

    have this scientific experience but like

    I have a completely different view as

    opposed to when I was a high school

    teacher that before I did project-based

    learning I was just assigning a report

    right before I understood the tenants of

    based learning so once I started kind of

    aligning my experiences to what I would

    like the students to experience and I'm

    like oh my gosh I know what it means to

    analyzing code data and that's not

    analyzing and coding data you don't have

    to look very far you don't have to go to

    the Olympics I think we have a whole

    generation of young kids who are

    rudderless right now because we kind of

    sold them this narrative that if only

    you follow these steps you know your

    life will be great well they followed by

    steps they were valedictorian they went

    to their college of their dreams yet now

    they don't even want to work because

    they're like What's it for what's it all

    for you have a whole generation of kids

    rudderless and that's on us we raise

    them we can't say kids today because

    when would you not use pbl or SEL so SEL

    is a constant right you're the shirt by

    the one that's been through life you

    can't turn that off but there are some

    things for example if I want to do a

    safety course for my science laboratory

    I can be like yeah just go in there and

    figure it out and see what if it blows

    up in your face don't do it again I

    can't be doing that right and so on PBR

    we do Peaks and valleys where Peak

    you're doing a project the kids are

    engaged and Valley maybe you're doing

    something like refreshing some skills

    that they wish they would have gotten we

    are doing things like you know giving

    the kids rest and me I'm gonna do some

    lecturing now because it's just give it

    to me it's my turn or just not learn but

    it's like let me just guide your

    learning for a little minute and then in

    the next couple of weeks we go into

    another project because the kids get

    projected out right and so you want to

    really have that Peaks and valleys and

    understand the reason and also because

    of the standards right and here in the

    United States in Tanzania we don't have

    those Hang-Ups but here in the United

    States because of the standards there

    are some standards and you have to touch

    on that are not really project ready not

    all standards are made equal yep and so

    sometimes in that Valley I can just

    collect those standards and go here are

    some things that I'm going to teach you

    that may or may not help you but I you

    know you gotta dance little Hoops here

    we go right and so my job as a teacher

    is to try to tuck in those standards

    wherever I can in projects but when I

    can't and I just feel like you know what

    I need to you need to have them I will

    teach them that way but here's the most

    magical part some of those standards

    that do not fit anywhere else don't

    matter

    they don't matter their standards that

    don't really coordinate or align with

    the experiences that the students are

    doing today but of course you can go to

    the powers that be and go yeah I'm going

    to throw out standards that I don't like

    so when I Was preparing some questions

    for today's conversation I was looking

    at a video that kind of like summarized

    your book with Mike and I'm curious one

    of the sections was talking about like

    the importance of students having a

    shared understanding of values I'm

    curious why it is important to teach

    that because as Educators I think

    there's a misunderstanding right so

    right now especially in the past 10

    years I'm gonna say there is this

    teacher should in fact I would like to

    create a t-shirt that says stop shooting

    on me because you should things

    politicians want to even touch with a

    should do it right and so there is this

    menu that has been growing about things

    that teachers have to do unfortunately

    the schools are taking it as a checklist

    rather than a guide or some kind of like

    road map we gotta do this let's do this

    you got to do this and teachers now are

    in this checklist mode and they've lost

    the plot right and this is what creating

    this dissatisfaction with teaching and

    the stress because we're just managing

    too many things

    my Approach is a little bit different my

    Approach I feel that in order for you to

    for example be diverse or create

    diversity in your class you can't learn

    about every culture where the Mexicans

    eat what are the Buddhists do what you

    you can't do that you're not Google but

    one of the things that you can do is

    create these conditions right where

    students have an opportunity to bring

    their own backgrounds yeah in the book

    we talk specifically about you know

    listening to the students rather than

    trying to Norm the students to the same

    values for example in the book there's

    an example about the inside voice which

    is very much uh culture in elementary

    use your inside voice use your inside

    voice well if you come from a culture

    where you speak a lot louder you

    gesticulate you're in your face you're

    interrupt because that's how you get

    your point across you're not angry

    you're just in the conversation and

    you're passionate right the normative

    culture tends to look at it as

    disruptive rather than what that person

    is saying so so there's an example in

    the book there's a couple of kids who

    are working and they're gesticulating

    and they're loud and the teacher looks

    around she hears them they're obviously

    working on their project but they're

    loud so she just says Hey I want you to

    turn it down otherwise you're gonna have

    to be working in the office you're

    interrupting everybody and the question

    is who is the interruption who's the

    distraction who just broke the learning

    because she could hear that the kids

    were learning they were passionate they

    were in their jam right and so then we

    give them some strategies on how to just

    kind of backtrack and don't try to

    create an environment try to listen to

    the kids and create the conditions for

    the kids to be kids you chose to teach a

    bunch of 10 year olds and 10 year olds

    are just naturally but kittens they just

    kind of Bounce everywhere and that's how

    you create that diversity you create

    that inclusion by really thinking about

    the way they are almost like biomimicry

    and adjusting your teaching environment

    to that so in that example we gave a

    correction or at least some strategies

    on you know teaching the kids to just

    having those conversations about how do

    you concentrate best how do you work

    best because we know as adults we can

    work with noise I mean I've worked in a

    city with you know in a coffee shop with

    a very busy intersection behind me and I

    can work with noise we know that we can

    do that very productively yet somehow we

    have this idea that it has to be

    normative so loosen up and let diversity

    come in in a way that you don't feel

    like it's disruptive but it's in a way

    that you can enhance the learning

    environment yeah no it definitely

    resonates I was fortunate I had

    administrators who were okay with the

    noise the chaos if we want to call it

    that like it was kids who were excited

    to learn and wanted to share with their

    peers and so we would often have EDM

    going through like the speakers in the

    classroom just like listening to music

    and like having a good time learning and

    whatnot kids were talking they're

    getting up moving around it was sit

    where you want work in groups or work on

    your own it's up to you my admin

    supported that but in the district that

    I was in previously unless is the music

    room they wanted it to be quiet and like

    everybody's sitting there is like that's

    science we know now that it's bad

    science right you know speaking of cats

    you know cats are slick cats are so

    coordinated and so athletic and so aloof

    right but put that cat in a box and see

    what you got going and so we've got a 10

    year old whose natural stay is breaking

    things open so that they can see what's

    in it asking questions climbing running

    running everywhere and the first thing

    we want to do when we want to teach them

    how to be a person is to take all of

    that away and put them in a box with a

    small little window if you're looking

    and then wonder how he doesn't perform

    at grade level whatever that means so we

    understand that you know again talking

    about the perspective of what social

    emotional learning can do is to really

    bring teachers back to ask themselves

    what am I playing at and then how do I

    teach them how do I teach them

    considering how Wild they can be how do

    I slowly but surely start teaching them

    the steps to take all that energy and

    make it into productive energy I guess

    there's kind of an interesting bit of

    irony in the backlash that has been

    going on with CRT in classrooms critical

    race theory is what is supposed to stand

    for but it also shares the same with

    culturally relevant cultural responsive

    teachings so parents are kind of

    conflating theories around law with like

    Ladson Billings work Geneva Gay's work

    Paris and elim's work etc and what is

    interesting is their work if we were to

    kind of summarize it is trying to pull

    the cat out of the box and let the cat

    be a cat and let kids explore who they

    are as individuals and what the ironic

    part is parents are like oh you're

    trying to force my kid into believing in

    your beliefs by teaching these things

    which is like no we're trying to let

    your kids be themselves and then there's

    pushback from that yeah and I think that

    it's orchestrated noise and I want to

    really encourage Educators to to not

    listen to that noise because again that

    noise forces us to look right instead of

    looking left and we know the science

    behind the way students learn we know

    that but we keep falling into well

    here's a narrative that the politicians

    are bringing into my classroom I

    encourage teachers to and this is where

    project-based learning is so awesome

    because it's so public I want the

    community to understand because they've

    experienced your whatever is that you're

    doing in the community if a school is in

    the community and the community is

    rotting that school is not I don't care

    what how many A's and how many kids go

    to college you are not a successful

    school and so in a pbl school hopefully

    the projects are things that are

    happening in the community I mean I've

    heard things like I don't want you to

    turn my child into a social Warrior and

    I'm like okay so right complete that

    thought so putting these projects out in

    the open really allows Educators to

    regain that narrative and tell a story

    worry in social emotional learning we do

    ask the students to look at their

    identity like I said before it has

    everything to do or how do you relate

    with the world how you see yourself in

    the world if I'm some little black girl

    who grew up in all white world and I

    wanted so badly to be blonde and have

    blue eyes and not have this butt that

    sticks out right that is gonna change

    how I see myself in the world and my

    value in the world so it's very

    important for me to feel valuable right

    from the very beginning and not just

    valuable because I look a certain way

    but valuable because I can do something

    I see it wrong I can fix it I see

    something that's dangly I can put it

    back yeah and so if you start listening

    to some of the things that these parents

    are bringing in it is an opportunity for

    you to bring them to your classroom and

    involve them bring them as Community

    Partners the ones that speak the loudest

    bring them as Community Partners I want

    them to see it so that they can say yeah

    not in my school that's not what it is

    rather than trying to push or delete

    things from my menu because I want to

    appease the masses one of the things

    about the social emotional learning

    angle is by teaching self-development by

    focusing on self-development you can

    begin to diminish content because

    content is controversial it was

    controversial and the Medieval ages is

    controversial today because we are in

    the age of information I can teach you

    of some valuable competencies to take

    that context and turn it into product

    right and so we can debate all of the

    boogeyman that Gary stuff that suddenly

    third grade education has become and try

    to defend ourselves about that or try to

    regain that narrative by seeing how this

    third grader produces something that

    Wows the world wow is the community

    while it's the parents and their

    legislators right we're tools we're

    being used and frankly don't want us to

    be done I just want that to stop so that

    we can regain our own narrative so cut

    that noise out I'm curious with your mom

    having also been an educator outside of

    the U.S how does that differ because

    like in the US The Narrative is largely

    driven by stakeholders who haven't

    taught a day in their life whether it's

    politicians or just really noisy upset

    loud parents how does that compare and

    contrast outside like the other schools

    that you're aware of outside of the U.S

    like do they have that kind of influence

    on what teachers do and do not do in the

    classroom they do remember the majority

    of the schools in the world are the same

    model right go to China go to Japan go

    to Germany we still have the Germans

    started this model where it was you know

    the whole you know Industrial Revolution

    Let's just kind of in that model has

    just basically translated throughout the

    entire world so when you say School you

    say desks and for example my Tanzanian

    School the government was more

    interested about the measurements and

    the dimensions of my classroom that what

    the students are learning because there

    is a control Factor well and then

    whenever anything is wrong in society

    somebody makes a mistake obviously it

    must have been something your teacher

    did or did not do so that is worldwide

    and especially the United States we've

    been the leader in the in progress the

    leader in Innovation and when they hear

    the stuff about the fake news they hear

    the stuff about some of the things that

    are happening today that is all

    translating into the classroom so yes

    you're hearing things in places in other

    parts of the world about you know don't

    teach history a certain way don't blah

    blah you know because it's just kind of

    whenever the United States gets like

    just sneezes the rest of the world gets

    pneumonia and it's been that way

    unfortunately my mother was a very

    traditional teacher although she was

    Innovative in her way but it was just

    getting away from the European narrative

    was cultivating tribalism or cultivating

    savagery right so you were only

    civilized when you can write a certain

    way or understand Shakespeare that's

    still going on in many many many schools

    in Africa and it will damage an extent

    because sometimes the teachers

    themselves don't even understand the

    concept they just understand the

    behavior of you know hitting a child

    because they can't understand or hitting

    a child because he can't read here we've

    had a lot of that in the states as well

    and then even here in Arizona we have a

    road that's still to this day called

    Indian School Road and a lot of people

    were protesting that and saying well

    that school that it's based off of was

    supposed to quote civilize the Savages

    that was the point of it was to

    indoctrinate Native kids into Western

    Way of being and so they would call them

    Savages unless they start addressing

    acting talking writing like Western

    counterparts and whatnot it's worldwide

    and where in the uniform with the Thai

    in the suit even though it's 95 degrees

    outside all day so it's worldwide it you

    know and it should right now be a lens

    right to people who are fighting against

    what's happening in the schools right

    now because what you're fighting against

    is the same thing there's a norm that

    you want to conserve and you don't want

    progress in your schools because that's

    scary or whatever it is whatever you're

    going through that new problem I'm going

    to make sure that my students have the

    conditions that they need in order for

    them to be able to react to be able to

    engage and to be able to just kind of

    make it in life without necessarily

    being crippled by the norm and I think

    that in order for us to step away from

    the norm we gotta understand the

    beginning which is ourselves my history

    and why my hair is amazing I wish I

    would have known that before how my skin

    is crucial I wish I would have known

    that before had I known the history and

    empowering kids like that the only way

    to obtain the Savages through school a

    certain way probably it's controversial

    thing to say but that's not what we're

    trying to do we're trying to get away

    from that model we want the kids to be

    people they want to be or who they are

    already I'm a bit of a practice nerd in

    everything that I do in life whether

    it's drumming gaming teaching whatever

    I'm curious how do you iterate on your

    own abilities and like try and progress

    as an individual and this one is easy

    because I'm a constant learner I love to

    interact with people because every time

    I talk to someone I walk away going dang

    that just blew my mind right I love to

    interact and you can't turn the feature

    off in my case my husband often says You

    just sounded really deductive for a

    minute

    and so you can't turn it on because I'm

    always learning and I'm you know a first

    adopter like type always looking always

    searching my Tanzania project my project

    in malabo Equatorial Guinea or in Arusha

    Tanzania are the places where I go to

    learn my Tanzanian teachers have they

    have given me a dissertation like

    Symposium on teaching more with less

    right we have the most expensive

    education in the world my Opera rating

    budget in my school is fourteen thousand

    dollars a year and that's including

    salaries and with that I'm able to not I

    but these teachers are able to change

    the lives of kids who otherwise would

    not have had schooling or would not have

    had opportunities to grow their own food

    understand cattle or do veterinary

    science at age six because we have

    chickens that need to be helped yeah and

    when you're taking care of a puppy or

    you're taking care and you make them

    better you understand that you matter

    and it doesn't matter your orientation

    it doesn't matter your culture doesn't

    matter whether you're taller you're fat

    you matter because you have given

    evidence that you do other than somebody

    telling you here's a model of beauty

    here's a model of intelligence and here

    you have to be a doctor in order to show

    that you're smart and social emotional

    learning is the outline of that it's the

    strategies that this teachers can use in

    order to create children that feel that

    way about them rather than using social

    emotional learning as an extracurricular

    piece it's not extracurricular it's the

    main flavor the main thing you you know

    just like Equity what are the strategies

    that you use for yourself because it's

    clear you think deeply about very heavy

    and difficult topics and that can be

    emotionally and intellectually draining

    lead to burnout one of the things that's

    cathartic is to learn empathy by

    listening to the other side it really

    has brought me to my knees I have family

    members who are polar Opa values and

    political religious thinking yet

    listening to them I've understood that

    sometimes especially when you have a

    liberal point of view you tend to be a

    colonizer yeah one of the things that I

    do in my work I go into places in the

    United States where you know like I'll

    go to Rural America where some of these

    things are not traditionally in other

    words one of the things that I've the

    places that I've really polished my

    journey is understanding that myself

    when I bring my knowledge or my wisdom

    or my thinking I too can be doing the

    same thing what I am saying

    project-based learning the idea of

    allowing autonomy is against the norm

    the culture there I am bringing them

    things that are no different than a

    missionary going to Africa and telling

    them that this is the only way that you

    can have a happy life imagine going into

    the Amish with ideas about you know some

    of our ideas that we have and then

    somehow judging them because oh my gosh

    they don't get it so it's brought me to

    my knees in all of these things that I

    am constantly thinking about and

    researching about what's the goal what's

    the end game where's the plot going

    right because if I'm talking Equity I'm

    talking equity and if I can go to a

    different culture in a country and

    respect that culture for it is I better

    be going to places in America where

    people are polar opposite and respect

    that culture for what it is that has

    been something that's blown my mind like

    looking at for example red versus blue

    there those are two cultures and if we

    can go into each other's territory

    understanding that you're going to

    somebody's culture values and thinking

    man I was like I thought I was right

    this whole time but my opinion is a

    grain of sand there's a website and like

    a handbook called Street epistemology

    which talks about how you can engage in

    difficult conversations with people you

    agree with and that the questions that

    you ask the framed as like a pebble or

    grain of sand in the person's shoe that

    will cause them to think about it and

    revisit it through the rest of the day I

    still find it difficult for me like a

    part of some people's cultures and

    understandings that gay rights should

    not be a thing and as somebody who's

    pansexual non-binary like I find that

    very problematic it's also a part of

    some people's cultural beliefs that

    interracial marriage should not be a

    thing and so like how do you grapple

    with that at one point not trying to

    colonize but at the other point trying

    to be like you are hurting people

    because of your way of being or your

    axiologies or ontologies or whatever and

    I cannot begin with that I can cannot

    begin the conversation with the pain

    right and this is where that empathy and

    this is where we teach in project-based

    learning at least in the social

    emotional learning strategies that Mike

    and I have put together you teach

    dialogue you teach bringing the Native

    American circles talking circles as ways

    to honor and acknowledge as well as

    provide in a place where everybody can

    speak in a certain way so for me

    starting with the pain shuts down the

    conversation instead you five wise but

    what makes you say that what makes you

    say that what makes you say that because

    I am just as passionate about my values

    of acceptance inclusion as they are

    about their religious base society as to

    who belongs and who does not and if I

    can provide a conditions for a person

    who is polar opposite to feel like they

    can grow feel like they can listen feel

    like they can speak and be heard and

    feel like whatever is it that they're

    learning is valuable to others without

    necessarily pointing out their flaws I

    think that somewhere we can meet in the

    middle right and as a black woman where

    I've experienced all sorts of

    discrimination and experience this tug

    of war whether do I become the model

    immigrant by assimilating or do I you

    know it's a tug of war at the end of the

    day with my life experience I just have

    to be and control the space where I

    stand that's the only control that I

    have right and able to teach others to

    do the same you know I'm looking right

    now at the hearings for example the

    January 6 hearings what two sides are

    working like a symphony whether you

    agree with it or not you can see that

    wow these are two sides that are Polar

    Opposites working in certainly riveting

    I love cake dramas I love Korean dramas

    and it's like episode five oh my gosh

    it's on

    [Music]

    for the first time in the time that I've

    lived in America I'm seeing two sides

    produce something harmonious and that's

    basically what I want and why I agree

    with everybody there do I think

    everybody there is a hero no but I

    definitely know that I can be your

    friend and I can be your guide or I can

    be your support system without

    necessarily agreeing to everything

    you're about we don't have that right I

    don't have the right as a black woman to

    be accepted everywhere in the world and

    that's something I don't know if it's

    just brown people we've understood I

    just need to have the right to just Live

    and Let Live in the past year in

    particular because of covid and like all

    the demands societal pressures put on

    Educators there's a large percentage of

    teachers who are just leaving the field

    completely how might you recommend they

    kind of regain this love for teaching

    it's like parenting the most beautiful

    job the most like the most difficult job

    right now we're dealing with a very

    rebellious child

    right you're dealing with that one that

    slams the door in your face and calls

    you a [ __ ] yep right right and so one

    of the things that and we talk about

    this in the book as to you know

    post-covered kids have just a larger BS

    radar they've had two years of their

    lives where they were doing their thing

    their own way school was happening they

    would go to school for 10 minutes and it

    was school and now we bring them back to

    no it has to be six hours and you have

    to be in a class for 55 minutes and then

    blah blah blah that's all the stuff that

    it's like no we don't they've gone to

    the other side and they're no longer

    buying what we're teaching them what

    we're not teaching them is the social

    emotional competencies that are just

    going to make you are much more you know

    like just better person and to me I

    would encourage administrators to really

    take a look at their structure take a

    look at the day is in their school how

    their schedules teacher environments and

    how whether the teachers have good

    social emotional learning skills whether

    they're providing themselves the

    conditions for teachers to have a non-op

    environment right and I would really

    encourage teachers to spend more time

    teaching social emotional learning

    skills because you're helping yourself a

    child that has gone through those paces

    and makes more responsible their

    learning decisions stops being your

    problem and now you can get to the

    business of teaching I thought my kids

    were just coming in more and more mature

    every year but it turns out that the

    kids were specifically understanding and

    even hearing it from to the Grapevine in

    this classroom this is how things are

    and throughout the year I'd be like the

    kids just get better and better now

    they're just maturing and please look

    right instead of look left that test

    really doesn't matter it's there you can

    teach the kids how to take a

    standardized test which is what the

    Chinese do which is what all those cram

    schools are they're just all about how

    to take a better test but we don't teach

    our kids how to test instead we just

    cram them with content hoping that

    they'll do well on the test if you teach

    them how to do a test then you have all

    the time in the world to teach them how

    to do life look right stop listening to

    the noise and do what you know works for

    students it's a very hard sell because I

    feel also as Educators that we've gotten

    so in love with the problem that the

    solution is too much work yeah it's so

    much easier to complain about the issues

    in education and then when you offer a

    solution yes but another solution yes

    but right the solution is right in front

    of you the solution is a child begging

    you to lead them and sharpen them for

    life and hopefully in this book we have

    enough strategies and ideas and what we

    call elevas which is a word from my West

    African into a background meaning like

    advice from the elders so I so we have

    enough experiential advice from Mike and

    I and the stories of teachers who've

    gone through project-based learning and

    how they braided that together to start

    kind of finding a ledge where you can

    just kind of start hanging on to and by

    doing that you'll see that you'll start

    falling in love with learning again

    because the kids will begin to amaze you

    again as opposed to annoying that's

    brilliant yeah I'm really digging all

    your answers so thank you what do you

    wish there was more research on that

    could inform your own practices we have

    the research right the researchers there

    I think the change to inform not just my

    practice but the practice of teachers

    just go back and listen to the science

    the science has been different since the

    canned curriculum I mean there are these

    things that I mean just doing these

    what's expected of you especially

    administrators you come into the job and

    you feel like well my job is to make

    sure it's like a police the curriculum

    no your job is to create the conditions

    right and so to me look into the

    researchers there and I would love to

    have more Neuroscience more about how

    the children learn and make sure the

    teachers understand how does the brain

    work where does it fire misfire I wish

    Educators had more of that and less of

    platform management classroom management

    became social emotional learning

    competencies and how to ground that into

    your teaching but the research is there

    look it up I don't think teachers know I

    know because after I did dissertation I

    was like no I didn't know how to do

    research really I say that because

    because you know we talk about Equity we

    talk about all these points that you

    know Equity inclusion all of these

    things but there's a fine line between

    equity and othering yeah there's a fine

    line between equity and othering you see

    my hair right if I want to get shampoo

    for my hair if I want to get my hair

    products I have to go to the ethnic

    aisle not to the beauty aisle ethnic

    isle is there where the cameras are by

    the pharmacy because there's lots of

    people there and as of 2020 Walmart took

    off their lock they didn't they stopped

    locking their ethnic products we do that

    as a society I mean Basmati is right you

    see it there's an international aisle

    for basmati because that's for the other

    people and so Mike and I had huge

    discussions about this idea that you

    know when you're bringing Equity to make

    you feel better I don't know Mike said

    okay so what happens if you put the word

    equity and you exchange it for black

    people or Chinese people or Indian

    people and you say things like oh wait

    going to now introduce black people

    curriculum or an Indian people

    curriculum very fine line and so as a

    teacher I feel that if you are concerned

    with the way your students develop as

    people you don't have that space to

    other rather than to include all of

    these things that the world is thinking

    to you well you gotta do Equity so

    here's an equity curriculum think about

    it what are you doing here is a girl

    curriculum here's a boy curriculum here

    is a poor people curriculum yeah and

    then the intersections of that so I

    co-authored a paper with John Stapleton

    that I'll include a link to it in the

    show notes but we were talking about how

    there's a difference between culturally

    relevant and culturally specific and so

    the example that we give is if you talk

    about culturally specific and you're

    like I'm going to create a curriculum

    that has paths for males females and

    non-binary trans individuals okay cool

    that's interesting but what about if you

    also have to consider the intersections

    with race are you then going to have

    paths Branch off within each one of

    those specific to race and then if we

    look at socioeconomic status or

    understanding of language like are they

    multilingual are they barely

    understanding English like there's so

    many different intersections that you

    have to consider and it's like well why

    don't we just focus on students as

    individuals rather than as collections

    of groups of people 100 because as a

    binary cisgendered female I don't have

    the life experience you've had and

    there's no way that I could bring you a

    book that's going to relate to you like

    you oh boy Black authors thank you but

    then you're doing this whole thing where

    it's like we're protesting about Justice

    and police brutality and we get

    Juneteenth thank you but that's not what

    we asked for

    right well thank you you replaced the

    bunny book by the black author thank you

    but that's not what we asked for by

    focusing on the individual and focusing

    on teaching the individual to just kind

    of explode themselves you'll get sprayed

    by what who they are and that's it done

    that's it we're working so hard to

    prevent that we're working so hard to

    Norm in a age where norming is abusive

    it's violent and creates individuals who

    are broken traumatized and no good to

    the society they were meant to cure and

    I know in my school principles in

    Tanzania we have these principles of

    self-care and Community Care and care of

    our environment care of our school care

    of our village you can't do that if

    you're broken yeah I tell you a lot of

    special education kids I always get the

    conversation what about special

    education kids they just stop being so

    special when they're in a well

    cultivated project-based learning

    environment where you know people are

    really concerned with their skills and

    competencies coping competencies and

    skills yeah sure I'm curious is there

    anything that you're working on that a

    listener might be able to help with well

    right now Mike and I are really focused

    on spreading out some of the strategies

    that we push in the book we are really

    wanting to create there's a strategies

    based on experience and also based on

    our experiences of our peers so we are

    really focused on grabbing those

    experiences making them even more

    palatable and more usable to our peers

    so I know we're doing we're going to be

    creating a lot more content about that

    now that I am done with this book and

    I'm you know the dissertation is far

    away I'm have a little bit more

    bandwidth to continue work in my my

    African school we just got a grant to

    expand so we're doing some buildings and

    new buildings so if you go to Instagram

    you'll see a new little building three

    brand new schools we have a little

    cafeteria we have little outdoor

    classrooms and so I'm going to really

    focus on that and focus on fundraising

    for making sure that these kids can go

    to school for free awesome yeah so if

    people want to reach out to you it might

    be able to help with that they should

    definitely do that for sure you can find

    me at mckinneyga.com and all of my

    information I'm pretty Google because

    there's just the one we think

    about me I'm admitting it.com and I

    would love Partnerships with schools who

    are interested in partnering with

    African schools not to teach them things

    but to learn from a different

    perspective interested in anyone that is

    really into this idea of decolonizing

    the way kids learn I have a big project

    that I am doing where I am trying to

    create an Eco village where it's not for

    just rich people often these equal

    Villages especially in tropical places

    are just for Rich Europeans to just kind

    of live out there oh I live in the wild

    dreams and the people around like the

    native population doesn't get too

    experienced like oh yeah you're going in

    there and getting all herbs but you're

    just bottling them and selling them on

    Instagram to your people rather than to

    the people around and you know enriching

    the community through these you know Eco

    Villages and then so we want to create

    one we have the land but now we're

    looking for organizations willing to

    come out and teach and learn and divulge

    in specifically

    stuff that our ancestors used to do

    let's try to create a platform for that

    so that at least people from my country

    can gain that cultural self-esteem that

    we've lost through colonization I think

    that kids that learn in this environment

    will be really interesting to watch are

    there any questions or topics that we

    haven't talked about that you want to

    the intersection between socials

    emotional learning there's a lot there

    there's a lot of questions I'm always

    open for a virtual coffee I think we've

    talked a lot about the like at least a

    perimeter of it but it's a differently a

    topic that can be explored again

    especially in this idea of identity and

    this idea of where is identity fit in

    today's classroom and with that that

    concludes this week's episode of the

    csk8 podcast I hope you enjoyed this

    interview with matinga I know I

    certainly did and I hope you consider

    sharing this with somebody else or

    leaving a review on whatever app that

    you're listening to this on it just

    helps more people find it stay tuned

    next week for another episode and until

    then I hope you're all staying safe and

    are having a wonderful week

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