CS Educator as Dungeon Master with Jon Stapleton
In this interview with Jon Stapleton, we discuss metaphors for education and facilitating, the importance of community and navigating inappropriate content online, how programming languages and platforms influence learning, theories and philosophies that inform Jon’s practice, critical code studies, and much more.
-
Welcome back to another episode of the
CSK8 podcast my name is Jared Leary this
episode I'm interviewing John Stapleton
in our discussion we're gonna speak
about metaphors for education and
facilitating the importance of community
and navigating inappropriate content
online our programming languages and
platforms influenced learning some of
the theories and philosophies that
inform John's practice and some critical
code studies as well as a bunch more
other topics Donna I met a few years ago
when he was an undergrad presenting at
an international conference he is a very
impressive individual and we definitely
talk nerdy in this episode so if you're
into talking about SES educator as a
dungeon master or at least the metaphor
of not the literal then this is an
episode for you as well as if you are
really interested in talking about
theory and philosophy and diving a
little bit deeper with that being said
this is longer as episode so I'd like to
keep this intro short and so we will
begin with John introducing himself I am
John Stapleton I work in the Shenandoah
Valley in Virginia I teach high school
computer science
mostly programming but some intro stuff
and a little bit of cybersecurity every
once in a while my background is in
music education and so I feel like I'm
kind of between two worlds a little bit
so tell me how it came to be that your
Twitter bio starts with computer science
educator and recovering music teacher
kind of a long story but basically what
happened is I started my journey as a
teacher
wanting to teach music I kind of came to
realize that while I love music I love
teaching music and I loved a lot of
stuff about being a music teacher I
wasn't a good fit or maybe those jobs
that would be out there for me as a
music teacher
I really like working with technology I
really like helping kids make cool stuff
but a lot of what your job is when
you're a music teacher
it can be depending on where you live
and what school you're and stuff it can
be just you teach band and you do the
marching band and you get scores at
we've got these competitions and that's
kind of what your metric of success is
and I would have been really frustrated
by that yeah for people who are
listening as an outsider there's a whole
field with like music technology that
you can do but that's not the norm most
of it is general music or large rounds
so the technology integration and
whatnot is like a side thing that you
might be able to do like 10% of your
time or 20% it's not as common to find
like a full-time gig just doing music
technology yeah and it kind of got to
the point for me personally where I like
the thought of having to spend most of
my time conducting a band just seemed
like the worst possible thing and I'm
like that's not a judgment of people who
like doing that I mean that's right
there's something for everyone but like
the reason I teach is because I want to
help people make cool things and I
really like coding I was coding as a
hobby before I had even thought about
being a computer science teacher and so
it seemed like a nice fit that's like oh
this is kind of a cool area it's still
developing there's not too many
traditions or patterns that I need to
fall into yet I can kind of forge my own
path and I was really appealing to me
I say recovering because you know at
getting getting a degrees hard and I
feel a little bit burned out on music
right now it's still part of why I teach
but that's it's more of a joke than
anything else maybe it's not a good joke
but but that's that's that's what it is
I still I still feel like being an arts
educators a kind of core part of my
teaching identity it's just not my only
part of my teaching identity if that
makes sense yeah so how did these
interests in computer science and music
kind of evolve in parallel or diverged
from each other well I learned how to
code by kind of trying to create my own
musical instruments so I was kind of
like they've always been intertwined for
me and I got really into artistic coding
like the art coding seen like the
installation stuff and like the sound
art pieces and like the cool
visualizations and like evolving art
like visual textures and stuff that
people were doing like digital or
digital humanities things it seemed
really cool to me so it kind of evolved
in parallel because as I was learning
about pedagogy through teaching music I
was also kind of contextualizing that
stuff in like okay what if this was
bigger than just teaching a large
ensemble teaching band what if this was
like have a more holistic
interdisciplinary multidisciplinary
space what would that look like to help
people be creative not Joe
with musical instruments or even with
the trappings of visual art what if it
was a kind of creative approach to
teaching was grounded in computer
science and coding and making software
and that's kind of been my focus since
then is trying to make my computer
science classes more like an art or
music class than a science class does
that makes any sense yeah I mean that's
how I approach my class I was trying to
make it arts based coding classes the
k-8 classes that I worked with and the
makerspace
space was a media Arts and Technology
makerspace so arch was like a huge thing
so yeah I get it but what I'm curious
about is you said that you taught
yourself how to code doing these things
yeah how did you do that and how might
you recommend teachers who maybe they've
taught other subject areas and are now
being asked to do computer science or
now on their own deciding to do this how
would you recommend that they learn how
to code or how to do computer science in
a classroom I might be kind of a bad
person to ask I am of the mind that it's
great to figure out how to integrate
coding and tons of tons of stuff because
it can enrich so much or integrate other
subjects into a computer science class
or whatever direction you're going but
you can't substitute the like creative
practice of doing it like you would
never take a art class from someone who
doesn't know how to do some sort of
visual art that that practice of having
that like experience of trying to be
creative is so important you don't have
to be amazing especially I mean I'm from
Virginia and we're trying to kind of
bootstrap this computer science
education community here among
practicing teachers and there's a lot of
talk about doing integration with other
core subjects but there's not enough
talk about people actually training to
be programmers or computer scientists
there's not the time devoted to trying
to make something cool and learning how
that connects to everything else I don't
know that you necessarily have to do it
before you can teach before you can
teach it I think that you can probably
learn while teaching and like learn
along with like people in your class but
that decision to make something and like
have a goal in mind some some kind of
like interesting or rich or
intrinsically kind of
tractive kind of end product in mind
whether that's educative or aesthetic or
whatever that's so so so important
because that kind of drives the
communities that you interact with and
you become a part of it drives the like
domain that you end up specializing in
and because like coding is huge this is
all this information all these different
practices that are kind of on this huge
umbrella and learning coding for one
thing is not the same as the earning
coding for something else and ultimately
you're gonna be part of a community when
you learn how to code if you're not part
of a community of coders who are doing
something they're coding something like
there's always there's always a modifier
after that like say I'm learning how to
code well what are you learning in a
code code what that's the best a good
question for me and so whenever someone
asks me like hey how can I learn how to
be a coder I'm like well you gotta like
figure out something to make and make
make that like start small but you know
you can't sit and absorb through osmosis
the stuff that you that would make you a
better teacher if you're trying to get
people to be creative had a heated
discussion with an administrator one
time when I was trying to argue for
providing more professional development
time in the district that is in and this
particular administrator did not think
that we needed more time because all we
needed to focus on was pedagogy and not
the content knowledge her argument was
that you did not need to know how to
code and how to do computer science in
order to run a coding class and my
analogy was okay so do you think that
you would be able to go into a band
class and teach a band how to play a
song if you've never played an
instrument and don't know how to read
music and her response was yes not as
well as you could because you have a
background in it but because I have a
solid understanding of pedagogy I'd be
able to teach a band class and I almost
fell out of my chair because I very
strongly disagreed with that in that you
have to have some kind of an
understanding but to kind of like argue
with myself and to give a little
pushback with what you're saying but
we've got this like shortage of coding
and computer science educators and we've
got people who are interested in it so
how do we get them those resources or
that time to get to at least being able
to engage
with kids you don't have to be an expert
right away but I would argue that if you
are gonna be teaching a coding or a CAS
class that you need to eventually become
an expert in that domain it doesn't need
to be immediate but like you need to be
working towards that constantly so that
way it's not just like well I don't know
what to do or where we're going next
yeah I agree
I I feel like this problem is really
complicated there aren't there isn't one
solution to getting enough computer
science teachers to teach everyone
computer science but the question I
would ask first is one why does everyone
need to know computer science I'm not
saying that everyone shouldn't I have my
own reasons for believing that lots of
people should know how to code but I'm
curious why X administrator X
superintendent whoever it is Y wants
everyone to know how to code and the
answer to that question drives the rest
of it yeah so if the answer is well
everyone's gonna need to know how to
code so I can get a job after high
school well show me the data what do
they need to know how to code because
that informs what we need to teach
teachers that's the fundamental question
but then beyond that beyond the question
of whether or not we need to teach
everyone computer science we should have
some coding teachers and we don't have
any we basically don't have any so so
what do we do about it and I think that
there needs to be some investment in the
concept of a key of the teacher artists
and this is something from music and art
education that there I mean people are
really really good at talking about this
so much so that it's almost like taking
for granted that this is a thing that
the teacher in the classroom is not just
a pedagogue but also an artist in and of
themselves and they have creative agency
and kind of an a mandate to be creative
in this context I don't know that we
have that mindset in computer science
right now that the teacher isn't just a
expert teacher or an expert coder but
they are an artist and that teacher
artists role is kind of the foundation
of any strong classroom culture or
strong learning experience so with my
background like I understand where
you're coming from but people who might
not have read about teacher as artists
what would you describe what a teacher
as an artist might look like versus
somebody who is not when I'm planning my
curriculum or when I'm planning a lesson
or I'm planning a project or something
like that I'm
thinking about I don't start from the
programming content knowledge that needs
to be transmitted I'm starting from what
are we interested in creating and so
that always starts with a conversation
with my classmates my students my
colleagues whoever I'm working with in
that moment and from there we're kind of
collaboratively designing stuff and
we're treating ourselves as a collective
of artists who are trying to say
something about the world using the
stuff we make not necessarily a
collective of entrepreneurs who are
trying to solve a problem sometimes
people are interested in solving
problems and so our artistic endeavor is
to solve problems and that's great but
sometimes we're just from interested in
making something that's really cool or
they're really disturbing or you know
really fun right or whatever and that's
an and but we're coming in into it with
a mission of what to put out into the
world that will represent us and then
from there as a as a teacher I kind of
flip that in my mind I'm thinking okay
how can I weave in all the different
content and skills and practices that
these students need to have in order to
one meet the standards set by the state
and to more importantly be successful in
their creative mission now that that
creative like that cycle of project
cycles is what I it's not the super
inventive name but that's what I would
call it in my classes that project cycle
can be long it could be a whole year or
it can be short it can be two weeks or a
week or less and we might do a bunch of
those throughout the year or we might
just take on a really ambitious project
and it takes a lot of time to make it
work but when I'm in the classroom with
students I'm a team member I'm part of
that process of trying to help them
create that thing and then sometimes I'm
leading more and sometimes I'm just
sitting back and like throwing throwing
out Clues but I'm not playing the role
of the expert transmitting knowledge for
them to replicate and prove to me that
they know I'm not playing the role of
somebody who is their boss who's trying
to get them to do something specific I'm
playing the role of a co-creator a
collaborator or a facilitator yeah so I
think that actually ties into a lot of
interviews that I've done that are gonna
be released by the time this episode
comes out but you haven't had the chance
to listen to yet John it's one of the
reasons why in an interview with Bob
Irving I
talk about reading outside of the field
so don't just read computer science
education research read educational
research from other subject areas but
then read stuff outside of the field of
education in general because you'll
constantly be learning new things yeah
so what you described is similar to what
Bob describes and he has a background in
humanities which is similar to what
sandy describes which she has background
in computer science as a professional
which is also similar to what katie
describes but she has a background as a
second grade and fourth grade teacher so
like we're all kind of converging on
this same idea of facilitating and kind
of like leading with the kids not like
stepping in front of them but kind of
like walking along beside them and maybe
guiding here and there but then taking a
step back and letting them kind of
choose their own path so it's all kind
of coming together in my mind at least
with episodes that will have released by
the time this one comes out that's
awesome yeah and I don't know that I'd
necessarily vibe with the word
facilitation it might just have too much
baggage for me but in what way well I'm
trying to unpack it a little bit I'm not
sure because sometimes it is
facilitative sometimes I am kind of and
this is the metaphor that I use a lot is
when you create instructional material
or or like a an example or a tutorial
video or something for students to play
with an experiment with that's like
dropping an artificial reef to the
bottom of the ocean right the goal is
that you drop that reef into the right
place so that all and this is this is a
pretty ham-fisted metaphor I don't know
anything about marine biology but you
drop it into the lot on the ocean the
idea is that life-forms can kind of take
that and make it their home and they
change it and adapt to it and it's kind
of a spark that kind of helps kickstart
a community and then eventually
hopefully that community is creating
their own structures to build off of and
you kind of become a participant rather
than the person who's dropping those
those artificial reefs and sometimes you
need to drop more than one I mean
probably more more often than not you
need to drop more than one to kind of
yet get things going
and it's a little more complicated than
that obviously because no kid is gonna
interpret that action in the same way
not every kid is gonna latch on to the
things that you throw at them so it can
it's more complicated and
more relational than the way I'm
describing it I feel like facilitation
sometimes not always is used as a term
to describe a person who knows better
setting up a sandbox when in reality I
think it can be more egalitarian than
that I guess mm-hmm so I describe myself
as a facilitator for years because of my
issues with teacher in that it seems a
bit more one direction in terms of
mm-hmm I am the person with knowledge
and you were the person receiving the
knowledge and I know not everyone views
it that way but I was trying to find a
way to describe what I was doing and so
I say I design and facilitate
educational experiences yeah trying to
put myself like at the same level not
above not below but just kind of like
learning alongside because I learned
from kids they learn from me we learn
from each other they learn from each
other etc
yeah but facilitation I still it's not a
word that I'm like sold on like this is
it
this is exactly describing what I'm
doing and I don't know if this belongs
in this podcast or not but I kind of
feel like sometimes facilitation and
project-based learning and some of these
more progressive philosophies of
teaching are kind of used as a cop-out
to avoid requiring the teacher to be a
an expert or to be someone who comes in
with a lot of community capital or
someone who comes in with a lot to offer
sometimes it seems like say oh well you
don't know any of this well that's okay
because you're gonna learn alongside the
students and it'll be emergent and in
that that's okay because it you're
facilitating that's true to a point but
also it's not a its lateral it's not
above the students but the teacher needs
to be a different kind of collaborator
then a then appear is most of the time
sometimes I mean I'm not gonna ever say
that if it everything needs to be one
way but I worry a little bit of talking
going back to the professional
development piece that sometimes people
come in and they say well you know you
got to teach computer science now and
it's okay that you don't know anything
about computer science because you're
gonna be learning alongside the kids and
great please learn alongside the kids
but also is that really a good
experience for the kids I don't know
maybe it's
when you are positioning yourself as a
co learner or facilitating or however
you want to describe it you also at some
point need to know where you're going
where you can go and where you cannot go
or you're just gonna run into walls or
troubles that are not necessary for
students to engage in so as an example
there was a scratch project that kid was
working on and they really wanted to do
this thing and I was like trying to give
them space to experiment with it it
eventually got to a point where it's
like oh well that very specific thing
you're trying to do you actually can't
do very well in scratch because I've
tried doing it before so here's an
alternative thing that I'm gonna guide
you towards and because I knew that I
was able to prevent hours of frustration
trying to get this thing to work yeah
for them so that's just kind of an
example like you need to know where
you're going down the road but you don't
necessarily need to be the expert and
all-knowing I can answer every question
kind of a thing there are many times
we're like I'd come back the next day
and be like okay I thought about your
question some more and here's what I
found out here's the process I took to
figure out that question or the answer
to the question yeah I completely agree
and and there's got to be a balance as
in all things I've been really thinking
a lot about the pedagogy framework that
I'm coming at and coming at things with
and I've recently started playing a lot
of Dungeons and Dragons with my friends
I've been kind of a haven't had an
affinity for that stuff for a long time
it's basically like the only media I
consume now is watching people play
Dungeons and Dragons so I'm the what we
call the dungeon master which is kind of
a like oppressive sounding term but but
the role of the dungeon master is to be
the like kind of the manager of the
world and the person who comes up with a
lot of the story and who can they play
the part of everyone except for the
players who each play a one individual
player in this vast world of monsters
and magic and you know towns and cities
and guards and all this stuff and
there's a lot I mean a shocking number
of parallels to teaching to good
teaching in that you are a player in the
game so part of the whole point is for
you to have fun so if you're running a
game and that you hate it
even if players are having a great time
you're not doing what you need to do
like you
you are situated in the game with a lot
of responsibilities but also as someone
who's supposed to be having fun with
everyone there that to me kind of gets
at some of the the nature of teaching in
some contexts where you have a lot of
responsibility to make sure everyone can
be can feel successful and to kind of
participate in this experience that has
a certain level of verisimilitude where
things seem real and the stakes seem
real and you're not just going through
the motions but also you're responsible
for playing the game with the people at
the table not for the people at the
table does that make sense
yes having played a little bit de
Dungeons and Dragons it makes perfect
sense to me and I think it'll make sense
to people who haven't played it just
that description you gave perfect just a
quick note
verisimilitude means kind of lifelike
for people who haven't come across that
word it's so frequently in qualitative
so glad I used it right and you can tell
that John is very well-read I'm just
kind of picturing here though you
introducing yourself at like the first
meet the teacher night you would be like
hi parent I'm gonna be your child's
computer science dungeon master like
yeah that would be awesome that would go
over real well oh great well the word
we've been looking for it's not
facilitator it's dungeon master I think
you could seriously write something
about that that is a really good way of
describing it how you are kind of
designing the experience but you're also
playing the game itself
my wheels are spinning I'll be thinking
about this for days so thank you and and
the nice thing is that if you ask anyone
who done who DMS Dungeon Master's if
it's a lot of work they'll tell you yeah
and if you ask them do you need to have
some skills to bring to the table when
you do this they'll be like absolutely
but it's not an oppressive I just popped
in to Mike it's not an oppressive kind
of situation it's not I come in with all
of this knowledge and I am the
all-knowing being dispensing rules and
perilous dungeon crawls from above it's
it's relational it's a relational piece
and you're trying to generate on an
engagement and the
of progress and that's so hard for a lot
of people and a lot of novice dm's come
into the game and they feel like that
they either need to be like the
encyclopedia or they need to be the
vengeful God smiting players from above
and neither of those are good approaches
to teaching or any kind of game play
yeah that parallels so many of the
discussions in the previous interviews
on the podcast it just replaced diem
with teacher facilitator one of the
things that you've mentioned several
times is communities how have can be
computer science communities or just
communities in general kind of impact
how you learned computer science I
cannot overstate how crucial community
and I use the term extra scholastic just
to be very clear about where these
communities are situated extra
scholastic communities have and it's
that's so clunky but they've played such
a huge role in my education as a teacher
and as a musician and as a coder and
everything else given that I've never
taken a coding class ever and I my
primary like musicianship identity is
centered around electronic music and
dance music and musical production of
course I haven't taken a class and those
either because they're not offered to
music teachers pre-service music
teachers and all of that stuff it comes
from being situated inside of a
community so just to back up a little
bit all knowledge is situated right
knowledge exists in relationship to
other things and people you ask the
question what is now situated within and
you say communities of course because
the the thing that you learn is passed
down or you're learning it from someone
or something else that is in
relationship and in dialogue with other
things and that that is to me kind of
the fundamental goal of education is not
to transmit knowledge but to hold people
into communities of learning and
creativity and and these communities are
not formalized in in that you can find
the space where they live and I mean you
can find spaces where so I'm
of them live but it's my like you know
network of mentors who don't know I
exist and though those are the people
who who I think of when I'm trying to
figure out how to be a better teacher
and it's complicated because learning
like that requires a lot of personal
motivation and a resilient and kind of a
resiliency that not everyone should have
maybe an obsessiveness that not everyone
it would be happier with my goal my role
as a teacher is to help make that
transition into being a community member
or to feeling feeling as if you belong
in a community more smooth and require
less kind of trial and tribulation if
that makes sense
yes I've definitely got some questions
about how you could apply that in the
classroom setting but I'm curious what
characteristics about the community or
how it functioned in particular impacted
you
it was the self-directedness of it and
and also importantly the the lack of
corporate sponsorship and that sounds
kind of like political and and it's
because it is that the community is I'm
a part of are not a content management
system they're not a set of modules on
adhesive or whatever you know learning
platform you're using it's it's a bunch
of people who are sharing stuff because
either someone asked them to share it or
they just felt like they would have
needed it when they were learning and
that to me it's awesome it's just it's
just great obviously the situation is
not as utopian in reality as what I'm
describing there are lots of problems in
online community spaces and it doesn't
you don't have to look far to find all
of the examples of racism and misogyny
and oppression and ableism and
homophobia and transphobia all this all
the stuff that you imagine when you
think of the dark side of the internet
all that stuff exists if you're
privileged enough to find communities
that are safe it also ends up being a
very like a kind of a collegial
atmosphere and I do want to say I use
the word privilege intentionally I
present as a white male I have enjoyed
all the privileges associated with that
and so my experience in online
communities learning has been shaped by
that identity piece and so I'm fully
aware that there are lots of people who
may not be able to feel safe in those
spaces and that's another piece of what
forms on teaching philosophy how can we
build better communities where more
people can kind of participate in
learning and teaching grounded in care
and creativity okay so the million
dollar question how do you try and
foster a sense of community within your
own classroom a safe space where kids
can learn and share together like what
you described well that is the question
right there are a lot of factors that
make kids feel safe unsafe in school I
was not interested I was not interested
in being a teacher for a long time
because school felt so oppressive and
unsafe the solution that I try to do is
to first take kids seriously as creative
people who have agency
everyone does it's just a matter of
finding a space where you can kind of
flex that muscle and be like what what
you do in that space matters convincing
kids that they're in a space where their
voice and their creative output matters
and that we care about it is V like
central challenge of my teaching I wrote
a whole chapter on affinity spaces which
is G an author that I mentioned in
several of the podcasts he talks about
these informal online spaces and how
they work together to learn very
complicated things and they're doing it
in an informal context without like
overt I'm the teacher you're the student
kind of roles in his writings he talks
about well how can we apply this into
education so there are some suggestions
on the D bit on how to do that but it's
difficult to do it in a way that doesn't
feel artificial or forced
yeah and that's that's the challenge is
that I am split between the idea that
the community space in the classroom is
the community that we're trying to
pull people into I think that's part of
it well there's also so much outside of
the classroom mm-hmm that's so important
and if anything that stuff is going to
be where kids have the richest
experiences because they're not bounded
by the logistical concerns of being in
school my background leads me to believe
that being in class in school is
probably not the best way to learn
anything it's probably the most
effective way to get everyone to learn
something but maybe not the best way of
getting one person to learn the thing
they care about you're also fighting
against a lot of the norms and values of
a school that can run counter to this
idea that students are being introduced
to communities where they can learn and
be creative and have agency so much of a
voice school the design is to take
students agency away and replace it with
agency of the teacher and what the
teacher believes to be important one
good example really practical like close
to home example is I'm running my best
programming class and so as a disclaimer
this works because I know all these kids
really well I've taught them before and
they're also have opted in to aid in
advanced level of coursework and it's
not an introductory class so I don't
know how to work make this work for an
introductory class disclaimer but the
the way this advanced class is working
is it came in
I kind of helped him through some some
basic stuff to kind of get their skills
back back up to where they were at the
end of their introductory course I I was
just really upfront and said the way I
want to run this class is that you all
make something cool and we do with that
product whatever we want I had a bunch
of kids were like oh we should make a
game and sell it and a lot of kids were
like let's make a game and like open it
and like so it's unfiltered and we could
play it at school and all that stuff
well I kind of like listened to all of
that and that was all valid and we are
making a game together like as a huge
team of you know 20 people and and I've
worked really hard to make sure that I'm
providing them with some scaffolds I
make it easy to be successful but I'm
not in charge of what they're doing
I'm in charge of making sure that what
they're doing is gonna end up being a
value
experience that they learn things and
that this comes back to a lot of the
stuff that we have been talking about
before that I'm not focusing on content
objectives first I'm weaving those in as
we go so one thing that I want to ask
about those like I'm all for connecting
kids with communities outside of the
school but the younger you go in the
grade level is the more likely you're
gonna run into firewall issues but then
there's also the communities themselves
are engaged with by all types of people
ages whatever so as an example in my
dissertation I present some findings on
use of swear words in this online
community so on page 232 it talks about
that and then the image on page 233 it
says oh over a thousand times in a
single forum post so how do you kind of
navigate that balance between the school
community where it has the school rules
and norms and whatnot the expectations
that the kids are supposed to follow and
then encouraging them to go into these
spaces where they don't have those same
expectations and it might conflict with
the school or community values in terms
of how to behave and engage online yeah
it's an awesome question I I teach high
school so the conversation I have about
this is different than it would be with
middle school or elementary school
students I have really strict policies
about like misogynist racist homophobic
transphobic language and they know that
I feel very strongly about that stuff
that kind of the stuff that I feel like
or that students will feel like is
crosses a line I'm generally not gonna
even bring it up I won't bring that into
class to inspect and analyze because
that puts people and in a position where
they're being asked to be really
resilient even for a little bit of time
we also have a conversation about hey I
haven't seen everything on the internet
and you might find something that is
really bad if they find a site that's
unblocked that should be like we have a
responsibility as people who are kind
participating community spaces to show
whoever needs to know that that's that
this is potentially being accessed by
students or whatever I I mean and I'm of
the mind that there's not a whole lot
you can do to shelter students from
toxic discourse in online spaces it's
gonna happen whether or not you talk
about it in class so better to talk
about it than not and I'm not gonna ever
sanction I'm not gonna ever send someone
a link where they're gonna find stuff
that's inappropriate I bet my resource
is very very very carefully so I don't
know it's it's a tricky situation I
really have a good answer and kids are
gonna find always find stuff especially
the kids who are really motivated to
learn on their own are always gonna find
stuff before I can get to it and yeah
even if you have the best firewall
that's going to censor anything that
might be deemed remotely inappropriate
kids are still walking around many of
them with devices that have access to
the Internet in their pockets or in
their backpack so the fact that you're
gonna have this conversation about what
is and is not considered appropriate
content at a particular age group or a
way to behave online like that's part of
digital citizenship 101 that you need to
be having so it's good to have those
conversations you don't necessarily have
to expose them to it in a class if
you're working with younger kids but
yeah at least talking about okay how do
you respond to this kind of content it's
it's kind of necessary nowadays like
back in the day like when I was in
school I didn't have a cell phone until
high school so until that point I didn't
have access to the internet unless I was
on a computer in in class but walking in
the halls nowadays kids can just pull
out their phone I can't do anything to
prevent a child from encountering
extreme propaganda online but what I can
do hopefully is have them be primed just
to critically think about that stuff
when they interact with it and know
either one how to kind of box that up in
their minds and do something about it or
to put it in context of the rest of the
discourse of communities that we've been
talking about
in class but if if they are in a space
where we've never had a conversation
they've never seen me kind of walk
someone through what it's like to
encounter whatever on line and what to
do about it and how to think about it
then I'm putting all the power in the
hands of people who are trying to harm
students I think that's kind of what's
ending up being the reality of online
engagement nowadays is that you kind of
have to be ready to eject yourself at
any given moment from a situation from
from an online community or a forum
thread or whatever you're engaging in
because it can get out of hand it can
get out of hand immediately yeah I I've
spoken with some IT people and some
administrators who have this fear of
technology or a tool because it might
allow them to do something that is
inappropriate so some people have said
well I don't want kids engaging in
scratch because of the online community
aspect I don't know if you're gonna talk
to even though it's like policed by the
scratch community or I don't want kids
engaging with the offline version of
scratch because they might be able to
take those characters and make them do
stuff that's not appropriate in my
response to that is always like okay so
are we gonna remove pencils from the
classroom as well because they might
write a curse word or might draw
something inappropriate it's not the
tool itself that we need to get rid of
it's it's how we engage with it in the
space that we need to talk about at
least that's just kind of my opinion
yeah I feel the same way I do think that
tools have a lot to say to us about how
we can approach the world and each other
we've had conversations in the past
about affordances and constraints of
tools and your mention of the tools kind
of reminds me of a conversation we
previously had about the affordances and
constraints of a language or a coding or
CS platform would you describe what are
some examples of that how you take that
into consideration in your class some
background I think ton about tools how
we kind of form relationships with them
especially in education
and there there's a whole lot of you
know kind of philosophical background
that we can get into after we have this
like after we get past this part but the
the basic idea here is that the tools
have agency they do things and they act
on us and we act on them and it's kind
of a dialogue so if I'm using it and
this is kind of borne out in the you
know classic metaphor like if you have a
hammer everything's a nail the tool and
then that's that's kind of kind of an
exaggeration but it the tool shapes our
way of knowing about things and so when
we bring that to a coding space our
tools our programming languages and
frameworks and the frameworks that
you're using are informing how you come
to know about programming the the tool
that you're using has a lot to say about
what makes a good coder what makes a
good programmer what makes a good
software program that that's borne out
in a lot of the kind of products that we
interact with a lot you think about
material design or you know the the
Apple philosophy of product design or
whatever that the tools are telling us
what's important they have a political
kind of agenda that they are forwarding
through their interactions with us so
taking that into the net in education
space what do our choices of programming
language or frameworks say about what we
think makes a good programmer and then
how does that affect who shows up in our
class who feels safe who feels in power
who feels disempowered in the classroom
the big thing that I do too when I'm
choosing tools is one I go for
open-source almost all the time I think
that's resonant with the mission of
public education and I run classes where
students are choosing their domains that
they're focusing on and I I'm not
running a domain-specific class now what
I mean my domain is a set of skills and
practices that are associated with a
certain kind of product so a domain
might be game development or mobile app
development or full stack development or
something like that that's a domain and
it's great to be able to sign up for
class like that because you get a lot of
variation
really like targeted practice on
something but what you do when you do
that is you take the creative
possibility of programming as a way of
knowing and you shrink it down to
programming as a means to an end and I
don't want my class to be that way if a
student opts into that path where they
are learning this very narrow framework
this very narrow domain that's great
because they've opted in but if I'm
offering a programming class
I'm not going to shrink down that
creative possibility to something really
narrow that may or may not be enacting a
political agenda that I feel like is
ethical yeah I think I'd like to
interject example for younger grades to
contextualize it so like an example
scratch as a platform and a language an
affordance of scratch is that you can
create all these media arts related
things and games
it's block base you don't have to worry
about syntax so you don't have to have a
high level of reading ability to be able
to engage with it things like that so
those are some affordances but an
example constraint is that because it's
so heavily based on the visuals it is
not very conducive to people who are
blind so if you are unable to see or
have difficulty with your vision you
would not be able to engage with scratch
as well as somebody who doesn't but then
on the other side there's something like
sonic pie which is text based and you
write out lines of code which create
music and so as an affordance it really
allows you to synthesize music in an
interesting way using code but as a
constraint it does not allow you to make
like the media art stuff that you could
do in scratch in terms of like making a
game or characters and whatnot so
whatever platform you end up choosing
are going to have these affordances that
allow you to do things and then these
constraints that kind of like prevent
you from doing other things so you kind
of have to take those into consideration
when choosing what kind of platforms
that you're going to use how do you take
these different important constraints of
a platform and how do you take into
consideration how kids can engage with
and what they can create with him how
does it impact your decisions it impacts
them fundamentally I I kind of have a
library of stuff that I think of when
kids come to me with different ideas and
we do do a lot of work to help kids come
up with ideas
I can't discount that that kids don't
come in most time they don't come in
with ideas at all if you're super lucky
I kill come in and know exactly what
they want to get out of your class and
that's so great because you can just
throw like resources and and stuff at
them and they just like soak it up and
make things and get bruises yeah yeah
yeah they don't like it anyway but most
most of my students can't do that
I can't I can't solve that problem for
them without teaching them how to come
up with ideas and so we we talk about
that a lot and it's not a Design
Thinking kind of thing it's we're not
trying to solve problems we're trying to
we're trying to empower them to use
their voice with code and so for a kid
who really connects with music and they
feel most empowered to use their voice
in in kind of musical context and I'm
gonna use something like sonic pie or
any of the other music coding platforms
that or have them make like a little
sampler thing or I mean though there are
infinite examples of ways to use sound
and so what I'm doing is I'm picking a
tool that makes that path easy because
that the stuff that doesn't matter
should be easy the stuff that matters
should be discovered
choosing a platting a language using a
platform can feel super high stakes
especially for kids who don't really
know what their options are so I'm not
going to let them choose a tool at first
I'm going to either show them a bunch of
tools and have them kind of evaluate
them based on their own on their their
perception of the affordances and
constraints but then a lot of times we
do the ideation process out of the
context of coding and then I say okay so
the thing that you chose it makes a
whole lot of sense for you to start with
this and I show them kind of the basics
and then they explore that thought
process is basically what I took to add
on the languages each each time I did in
the class that is with so I mentioned in
a previous podcast with Bob Irving that
every year or every semester
you can try and add in one more thing so
learn a new language learn a new
platform and keep building on that if
you're new to CS so you don't have to
feel like you're overwhelmed starting
with like ten programming languages at
once and for me the guiding questions
that were what language or platforms
should I add had to do with what are
kids interested in that they feel like
they cannot do in the current platforms
in other words if using platform a and B
if they feel constrained about making
music then I need to find another
platform that is more conducive to that
so like that's how I got to Sonic PI and
then eventually some kids were like well
I want to make apps for my device and we
had a lab full of Mac's so we worked
with Xcode with Swift to make uhm iOS
programs and whatnot so yeah those
decisions were guided by the interests
of the kids that I was working with
even though we still had to take into
account the constraints of here are the
devices that we have available in the
operating systems the reasoning in this
class what can we do that's interesting
yeah and and I think it's important to
note that not every kid is going to push
up against those barriers that the tools
present I really wanted them to when I
first started teaching CS because I
wanted to have this kind of language
agnostic classroom where everyone was
doing all sorts of stuff and we were all
learning you know like kind of kind of
like this diverse knowledge base I think
a lot of kids end up being pretty
frustrated by that they felt like it was
too open they they were like floating
and avoid as opposed to be floating in a
vast sea of endless possibilities it's
just kind of a cheesy way to say it they
they felt they felt isolated rather than
empowered by a choice this year I've
been kind of focusing on trying to
institute some creative constraint at
least at first and kind of cultivate
this willingness to push against the
boundaries so that when they do get to
the get to a point where they are
pushing against the tools they're using
they feel empowered to ask how to get
past those constraints and then we can
switch stuff for people who are
listening to this who feel intimidated
by the idea of teaching more than one
like programming language then just
teach one because there's there's so
many things you can do especially if
you're not if you're thinking if your
teacher
Highschool or older students who might
get through the basics little bit faster
you don't have to worry so much about
the tool instituting a lot of
constraints on you because they're using
tools that are designed specifically to
have a lot of flexibility that's a good
point when you yeah the tool especially
in EdTech the tool provides a lot of
scaffolding for you so if you're using
scratch that tool has a lot of
scaffolding to make sure that you can be
successful for the purpose that it is
designed for but javascript has some
constraints it can take students a
really long time to get to that point
where they're pushing against those
constraints but like it I mean there's
always gonna be constraints and when you
find the end of those then hopefully
what happens is people either adapt and
figure out really cool creative ways of
circumnavigating those constraints or
they feel empowered to leave the nest so
to speak and kind of strike out on their
own and I feel like I I had no reason to
believe this but I suspect that last
step happens a lot out of school and not
so much in school and I didn't use the
word affordances constraints when I talk
about tools and I want to make sure I
reef or we move on I wanted to reframe
that a little bit because tools can have
affordances and constraints designed
into them but I also like the language
that tools afford and constrain users
it's an active act because from my
perspective the tools aren't inert
they're not inanimate they have agency
they are I mean for lack of a better
term they are alive given the social
context that we have situated them
within one of the things I appreciate in
our discussions that we've had over the
years is kind of talking about different
theories and philosophies so I was
hoping we could shift into a discussion
on that I'm wondering if you could share
some of the ways of knowing or being
that kind of influence your approach to
education or learning the thing I talked
about with tools having agency and like
the objects being alive comes from a
scholar named Jane Bennett she wrote a
book called vibrant matter a several
years ago where she's kind of exploring
the vibrancy the aliveness of material
and like
she uses the term thing power the power
that things have to kind of call to us
or draw us in and the relationships that
we form with these objects it's
difficult to talk about this kind of
approach I think that some people call
like new materialism if you're looking
for something good something to Google
its Sokol talk about it because you have
to use metaphor to get at it because you
can't a lot of people when you say like
hey the tool is alive
they kind of like balk at that but if
you think about it like that the things
that you that you have and you interact
with do have a relationship with you and
you can think about it sort of in terms
of like a sentimental attachment to an
object that object is a part of you if
you think about it and I'm coming at
this come from a musician's perspective
you play the saxophone your body is
literally a part of the instrument there
is an unbroken air column that starts
somewhere in your lungs and ends at the
end of the bell and really extends into
the whole room and you vibrate the air
with this air column so you are a part
of this object as objects as a part of
you as you're going through this music
making process and so to me it seems
like a no-brainer that these objects
have agency and they they are alive
I think anyone who spends a lot of time
with a thing you you do kind of see the
aliveness of it and then if you're
thinking about this from an educational
perspective if you have things in your
room objects educational technology and
things are alive then those objects are
either students or teachers or both and
you kind of have to think about okay
well what's the pedagogy of this object
what philosophical underpinnings are
they bringing to to the curriculum what
do they contribute to the room what do
what relationships do they have with
students even if you don't really buy
the new materialist philosophy thinking
about it metaphorically in those terms
can also be really useful which kind of
brings me to another perspective bruno
latour Acton's kind of an actin Network
actin is spelled a CT AMT it's is
something that acts something that acts
upon something else and I don't think he
went as far as to say that the objects
the Acton's have sentience or agency but
thinking about education
technology as an act n't upon students
is I think kind of interesting and I
think about this a lot in terms of
constraining tools or scaffolds these
actin --tz-- are acting upon our
knowledge systems and the way that we
make meaning of educational experiences
so what's an example of an actin in the
cs education sphere oh is a good example
I mean we act upon Sphero by programming
it and making you do things and breaking
it and stepping on it and tripping over
it and all that stuff but Sphero acts
upon us too because we are negotiating
some sort of nascent knowledge of
programming with Sphero in dialogue with
Sphero it's acting upon our ontology x'
our schemas i suppose is one way of
saying it our understanding of what is
programming what is coding what MIT what
who's a computer scientist what does a
computer scientist do if in the
classrooms fearow is situated by this
context of computer science
then the Sphero is acting upon us and
telling us how we should be perceiving
its role in computer science it's not
just a vehicle or pedagogy or curriculum
it's a or a being vehicle is is too
strong the thing is never just the thing
it's situated by the community and the
context it's within and then when we
give these objects life by being human
with them they do act upon us their
stimulus at the very least that we make
meaning of that that's that's kind of
one example of an act and I hope that
makes sense yeah in a sphere oh for
reference is a little robot that you can
like program just in case people haven't
come across it it's pretty popular one
though and and so this kind of the next
step here if you're gonna give like like
the Grand Tour of my obsessions in
theory and practice is this idea of
dialogic allottee that we kind of make
meaning of our lives in dialogue with
others there's a philosopher german
philosopher called martin buber who has
this famous thing that he said i'm gonna
paraphrase that we only come to know
ourselves by coming to know someone else
and that's kind of a one way of
thinking about this that we learn based
on this kind of social context which is
pretty pretty well grounded and covered
by kind of this progressive
constructivist philosophy of Education
this idea of dialogic allottee takes it
a step further that we we come to know
ourselves by being a dialogue with this
vast decentralized network of competing
simultaneously speaking voices and these
voices give rise to kind of emergent
meaning given our position within them
and I mean in being a teacher I feel
like I am kind of surrounded by this
vast disconnected cacophonous set of
chorus of voices that all have this kind
of agenda or idea of what computer
science education is or should be and
I'm and I come to know myself in
dialogue with these tools and educators
and philosophers and and everyone else
either in reaction being reactionary to
something or by following along and
finding people whose voices match my own
and by voices you mean like society at
large or discourses from the field
yeah yeah discourses is a good is a good
word for it because I'm coming at this
from kind of a new materialist place I
do also kind of mean the literal voices
of objects themselves because because I
am situating dialogic ality and in my
mind I'm situating this dialogue within
the context of the objects have agency
and so they're part of this conversation
so you'd mention constructivism at the
start of the podcast and constructivism
if if you're unfamiliar with it is it's
the idea that like knowledge is socially
constructed individually understood and
was like therefore unknowable beyond
your own understanding of your knowledge
so you I can't know what John knows and
his understanding of reality but I can
attempt to grasp it by like kind of
conversing with him but then there's
another idea of constructionism which is
like you learn through doing and
creating and making and like that is
typically talk about and si si
education while as constructivism is
usually talked about in other areas of
education and what it sounds like is
you're kind of taking into account the
voices that are inherent within an
object itself and so even if you are
constructing something creating
something on your own you're still
engaging in a dialogue even if you're
unaware what the dialogue is and what
the objects you're working with are
basically inherently telling you in
constructionism and this like seymour
papert the idea is that learning by
making and doing is kind of it kind of
assumes the the end product there's it's
productive there's a there's a there's a
product at the end and I would I would
say to that is when you create something
you're putting a voice out into the
world and that voice is part of this
constructive social relationship where
you are constructing knowledge and
individually kind of reflecting and
become and synthesizing that as part of
your worldview or your knowledge base or
whatever you want to call it is that
something that is talked about in CS
education research I have no idea see
this is the problem is that I'm not up
on the research scene a night I try to
be but I haven't found yet anyone that's
talking about that so that would be
really interesting to see if others are
discussing that yeah I I will say that
the the critical code studies people are
kind of getting at this stuff
and critical code Studies is the kind of
subfield within the digital humanities
and some other disciplines have an
intersection between many disciplines
where people are looking at code itself
as a kind of a text to be analyzed and
be understood within the context of
social realities that the critical and
critical code studies comes from
critical theory or critical race studies
and stuff like that and there's a whole
bunch of research that gets into that
stuff but the basic idea is that you're
looking at how
texts or objects or ways of knowing help
situate social reality and the impacts
that these things have on people's lived
experiences and and it's kind of with an
eye toward activism and addressing
oppression within communities so an
example of critical code studies would
be we look at the code of an app that
tracks people's locations and we can
kind of make some statements about the
way that that might impact people's
lived experiences who's being tracked
and why but we can also look at the text
of the code and see if the way that it's
constructed is OP can offer any insight
into its agency in the context of a
human social reality we might look at
the text of the code itself what words
does it use one great example of this is
in music and also it actually in a lot
of tech fields we use the term master
slave to describe the relationship
between two objects that are
communicating with one another one of
them is in charge of the bus that's
taking care of passing messages and
managing all of the clients but the
traditional term for this is master
slave we're trying to get away from that
right because that has a lot of baggage
and says something about our
relationship with technology and our
relationship to each other so if we go
through the code and we look at the text
of the code what does the text of the
code say about us and how does that how
does the text of the code impact our
live social reality given that the
product that's a part of and one kind of
simplistic way of looking at this if you
there's a video you can look up on the
internet where you have someone puts
their hand under a soap dispenser and
you can see that the person is white
either hand is under the soap dispenser
and the soap dispenses and then of
someone with a darker skin tones a black
person comes up and puts their hand
under the sub dispenser in the soap
doesn't dispense so critical code
studies might say okay how can we look
at the code and come to better
understand how this machine is
interacting and participate
in some oppressive structures that we
have been dealing with since before this
piece of technology is ever around
how can a piece of technology be racist
critical code Studies is part of its
part one of the communities that's
trying to address that question when we
talk about critical code studies we're
also talking about what we should do
about it and how how we can hold people
accountable and hold machines
accountable for the way that they impact
our social reality and this is kind of a
side note I don't know if this scholar
puts themselves under the umbrella of
critical code studies but they're kind
of mentioned in that discourse is Sofia
Noble and the book algorithms of
oppression it's a good introduction to
this idea the agency that are our
objects have in so in constructing
social reality for us it's about how
search algorithms reinforce racial
oppression and bias and unfortunately
there's a lot of examples of that yeah
yeah having read some similar studies so
one of the things that I've kind of
found interesting with research and
going through these theories and
philosophies is sometimes in theory they
sound great and then when you get into a
classroom with kids you try and do it
and you go wow this this isn't gonna
work yeah because of X Y & Z so I'm
curious in what ways any theories in
general have kind of been out of touch
with your experience in the classroom or
your day to day yeah totally
that happens all the time the most
important thing I need and any teacher
will tell you this is that the most
important thing is the relationship with
students really like any problem can be
solved if you form a good relationship
with a student and talk to them about
how to solve the problem so before we
get into all the problems without the
theories like that's that's the solution
for those of you who are interested
unfortunately it's very labor-intensive
solution and it's not necessarily
scalable or always healthy for everyone
but but that's that's kind of one cure
all the but that those theories that
don't pan out totally so
constructivism really totally doesn't
pan out sometimes because you have to
people have to have some intrinsic
motivation to create and that doesn't
always happen um it might be because the
student doesn't see themselves as
creative it might be because they went
the first day they came to school
wherever they are they were immediately
smacked to the ground either physically
or metaphorically and they no longer
feel empowered or have like they have
any voice in the classroom they might
also feel like the stakes are either
solo or so high as to be completely out
of the scope of their lives there are so
many problems so many different barriers
to into implementing something like
constructivism or project-based learning
or whatever that those frameworks don't
address and as a novice teacher it was
very disillusioning to come into a
classroom and feel like I am subscribing
to a progressive philosophy and kids
learn better when I'm just lecturing at
them very discouraging the the solution
there I think is not to just lecture at
them I think it's to kind of understand
that we are participating in a system
that is it's incredibly difficult to
catalyze change and you are one cog in
this vast educational meat grinder that
either like some kids come out okay and
a lot of kids don't and for whatever
reason they get chewed up and spit out
and project-based learning doesn't have
a whole lot of things to offer to help
that problem it's important to have
these discussions because I personally
think there needs to be some kind of
experimentation involved with actually
taking theories and philosophies and
applying them into a some kind of a
learning experience and then there needs
to be research more on ok how did that
actually work because like in theory it
should do a B and C but what we found is
a B and Z one and the other piece here
is we have to be and and I know you you
and I have talked about this before we
have to be super careful of what we're
measuring
when we do that because too often people
do this kind of inquiry and they're
measuring some sort of content-based or
skills-based
end point when they when they're trying
to figure out if project-based learning
is effective the word effective is used
a lot and it's important to have
effective education I mean there there
are some things I just need to happen
like you need to know how to read but
effective at what yeah yeah we're pretty
good at getting most kids to that bare
minimum level of self-sufficiency and
and obviously at the margins we have a
lot of work to do especially when we
talk about students who are dealing with
struggles outside of school whether that
be socioeconomic or dealing with
violence or whatever else and/or
students with disabilities students who
are differently abled who may not get to
the point where they are self sufficient
given whatever context we're talking
about because of the school structure
and the way that things are happening
for them in their day to day lives while
they're being educated it's really
important to figure out what we care
about when we ask what is good teaching
and when we have to figure out what
we're looking for when we are looking
for good learning what does it look like
to have high quality learning and that
will hopefully lead us to what
constitutes high quality teaching the
traditional method or assessing high
quality learning is with tests which are
kind of aligned to state standards and
I'm not totally convinced that that's
the best way to measure high quality
learning you might you might suspect
given the things I'm saying in this
podcast I don't really vibe with that
it's not that important to me and and
honestly get in computer science on I
might make some enemies for saying this
but I don't know that the world would be
better if we had more really awesome
coders you know like I think that the
world would be better if we had really
creative empowered socially conscious
people who happen to know how to code
that would be awesome but the the idea
that we
change the world for the better by just
creating more people who can make
software I think that there's a lot of
evidence to suggest that that's not the
way to make the human condition improve
on the long term they haven't released
yet at the time of this recording but
there are multiple other interviews
where people have read it reiterated
similar things so that is comforting
how are you continuing to evolve or
refine what you're doing like every year
when I was in the classroom look
different than the previous year when
when kids would come back they would be
like why don't we do this when I was
here and it's like well because I'm
trying to get better yeah if I I kept
doing the same thing every year then I'm
not growing and I'm not helping you as
much as I think I could so it how are
you trying to refine things oh man like
so many so anyways I the thing I hope to
get way better at in the near future is
having the stakes feel real by situating
the classroom in the context of the real
world I think that's the thing was
missing from a lot of my work right now
is that kids come into my class
we're not grounding anything in like a
reality of someone or the reality of
like you know when you're when you're
musician and I keep bringing the
contents of music because this is my
background but I think there's a lot of
other things that kind of follow this
too when you're a musician you have
there's a goal right that you're gonna
perform whatever you're doing at some
point you're gonna share it with the
world and so those stakes are real you
have to you have to learn the things and
get better in order to put on that
product that performance and I don't
want my coding classes to be product
oriented because I don't want to be like
reteaching startup culture to these kids
and creating a whole new generation of
people who end up breaking the world but
what I really want to do is have them
come into the room and feel like they're
being taken seriously and that the
stakes for them to show me who they are
by being creative are there and real and
that I'm going to value that and the
people around them will value that still
try to figure out how to
that's the big one for me right now so
what questions have I not asked you that
you'd like to discuss I mean I I have
questions for you about the stuff that
you're doing like it one of the things
I'm struggling with is how to provide
this kind of asynchronous and choice
based framework for or learning code
independently and this just seems like
there's so much room for
misinterpretation and for like falling
through the cracks like anytime I make
something like I use I just just put
this in context and Gary I know you use
a lot of video tutorials and stuff for
your for your things that that's like
something you do all the time and I I do
the same thing and I also make a lot of
text tutorials and like like blog posts
that walk people through things and like
when I first started making these I just
have kids copying the code in the videos
which is great to get started but then
there was never a point where they kind
of started to hack into these examples
and start building their own thing
because it was it was an end point it
was convergent rather than me a catalyst
for some sort of creative action on
their part so that's that's create that
to be able to be able to create things
that do that that are like at the seed
of something or like jet fuel for
someone who's ready to create something
so difficult and there's nothing to me
as a learner there's nothing better than
finding that resource that like sets you
off and just like and you just go is
that I mean that that's half of the
battle right I spent hours and hours and
hours finding these things that can help
me as a learner as a teacher I don't
think that search matters that much I
feel like kids if they can just find the
thing they can do it um but maybe it
does I don't know what's your
perspective on that
so that's know this summer I did a
presentation at SD and I was talking
about project-based learning with
scratch and in the presentation I had up
on the screen this continuum of
project-based learning and on one end of
the continuum it was fixed in the middle
it was flexible and on the other end it
was open so a fixed project is like I
want you to create a game with three
sprites five variables two conditions
and it needs to do blah blah blah so
like that is like it's a project that
you that you're creating but it's it's
very set in stone you know what the
expectations are on the other end of the
spectrum is I want you to create
something that uses variables how could
you use variables to create something
that's interesting to you and so that
being open more towards the middle is
okay you're gonna create a game and it
can it needs to include variables and
conditions but what kind of a game that
looks like that's up to you I'm not
gonna dictate how many sprites or how
many of each concept or understanding
you're gonna demonstrate etc just use
them in some meaningful way to move
towards the middle so in the resources
that I create with Buddha I am
intentionally have them mapped out so
that every release that I create has
some kind of a balance along that
spectrum and even within those resources
like there are project sequences and
then there are extensions and then
there's like remix opportunities like
there's all these different ways of
engaging with the same thing so you can
approach it from many different angles
or perspectives and that is very
intentional by design because I want
kids to have that opportunity to kind of
create in a way that works for them some
kids prefer more open-ended stuff some
kids might need more of this rigid fixed
criteria and I think that's okay it's
just it's hard to create those kind of
resources
because it takes a lot of time and
having like been the person who would
teach a class in it all day from as my
full-time gig would then teach drumline
at night and then potentially take
classes grad classes and then on the
weekends and what week nights I had off
creating all these resources it's very
difficult to do so I'm grateful that I
can do that full time with boot-up now
because like that's my gig and I can now
create these things for teachers who
don't have that time but that's kind of
like my general approach yeah that's
that's so useful
I really like that framework that the
way that I had been doing things was I
would create targeted resources or like
specific kids and specific projects that
kind of walk them through the problems
that they're grappling with I think that
I was probably just like too close to
their projects that I was trying to
create things that were so tailored that
they didn't have to extrapolate at all
mm-hmm and I think that that process of
extrapolation is actually super valuable
because you're recontextualizing and
trying to transfer knowledge well then
the other piece is like there's so much
in coding that is like does it really
matter if they discover how to do this
or and I just tell them yeah and kind of
like expanding on the idea of looking at
project-based learning as a continuum
there's also this continuum with
undergrads in particular I bring this up
more and then I do with some grad
students is that when you're working
with kids even though a lot of
universities are talking about a
constructivist approach or inquiry based
learning or project-based and
facilitation and things like that it's
not at the cost of direct instruction
and it's not saying that you will never
give direct instruction and the only
thing you're gonna do is respond to
questions with questions 100% of the
time it's finding a balance and knowing
when might it be more appropriate to
respond with a question or guiding
towards a resource or like a peer or
something and when might it be more
appropriate to say a quick thing on how
to do something or demonstrate or model
or whatever yeah so I don't have to just
like completely avoid one approach in
favor for a more progressive end and the
other way around like you don't have to
just lecture all the time yeah I kind of
feel like in my teacher education
journey I kind of thought that I would
be able to teach without doing direct
instruction because we never like talked
about direct instruction it was
discouraging for me to go into a
classroom and be like wow I feel like I
just lectured like for like 30 minutes
and
well they actually got it crap you know
like am i my dad because of that no of
course not that's not how it is
what are some of the questions that you
have for the field what are we doing
about the large powerful corporations
that are controlling the infrastructure
of computer science I know that a lot of
people have answers to that but I
specifically for CS ed what are we doing
about that and how can we be more
effective in dismantling and disrupting
the power structures that have started
to kind of calcify that's why I'm
basically like a single-issue voter in
that in that space I don't mind kind of
outing myself as someone who is really
concerned about the the power of these
large corporations and I'm very very
concerned about their presence in the
classroom as kind of uncritical
benevolent deities that lord over the
learning that happens in the classroom
so where my people go to connect with
you so I easy used to reach on twitter
my handle is @j stapes J sta PE s but be
forewarned that there's also some like D
and D content on there so it's not it's
not purely me ranting about CS education
or music education it's kind of all
three of those things
and without that concludes this week's
episode of the CSKA podcast I hope you
enjoyed the show and I hope you consider
sharing with a friend next week we'll be
back with another episode where I
discuss some scholarship and unpack its
potential implications
Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode
Other podcast episodes that were mentioned or are relevant to this episode
Fostering Intersectional Identities through Rhizomatic Learning
In this episode, Jon Stapleton and I read our (2022) publication titled “Fostering intersectional identities through rhizomatic learning,” which uses mapping as a metaphor for individualized learning.
How to Get Started with Computer Science Education
In this episode I provide a framework for how districts and educators can get started with computer science education for free.
Rhizomatic Learning with Catherine Bornhorst, Jon Stapleton, and Katie Henry
In this panel discussion with Catherine Bornhorst, Jon Stapleton, and Katie Henry, we discuss what rhizomatic learning is and looks like in formalized educational spaces, affordances and constraints of rhizomatic learning, how to support individual students within a group setting, standards and rhizomatic learning, why few people know and use rhizomatic learning approaches, how to advocate for and learn more about rhizomatic learning, and much more.
The chapter I wrote on communities within formalized educational contexts
Pages 232-233 of my dissertation caution about curse words in online communities
Learn more about “actant” and actor-network theory Jon mentioned
The ISTE presentation and resources I mentioned that discusses project-based learning with Scratch
Connect with Jon
Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter