CS Educator as Dungeon Master with Jon Stapleton

CS Educator as Dungeon Master with Jon Stapleton
Jared O'Leary
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In this interview with Jon Stapleton, we discuss metaphors for education and facilitating, the importance of community and navigating inappropriate content online, how programming languages and platforms influence learning, theories and philosophies that inform Jon’s practice, critical code studies, and much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast my name is Jared Leary this

    episode I'm interviewing John Stapleton

    in our discussion we're gonna speak

    about metaphors for education and

    facilitating the importance of community

    and navigating inappropriate content

    online our programming languages and

    platforms influenced learning some of

    the theories and philosophies that

    inform John's practice and some critical

    code studies as well as a bunch more

    other topics Donna I met a few years ago

    when he was an undergrad presenting at

    an international conference he is a very

    impressive individual and we definitely

    talk nerdy in this episode so if you're

    into talking about SES educator as a

    dungeon master or at least the metaphor

    of not the literal then this is an

    episode for you as well as if you are

    really interested in talking about

    theory and philosophy and diving a

    little bit deeper with that being said

    this is longer as episode so I'd like to

    keep this intro short and so we will

    begin with John introducing himself I am

    John Stapleton I work in the Shenandoah

    Valley in Virginia I teach high school

    computer science

    mostly programming but some intro stuff

    and a little bit of cybersecurity every

    once in a while my background is in

    music education and so I feel like I'm

    kind of between two worlds a little bit

    so tell me how it came to be that your

    Twitter bio starts with computer science

    educator and recovering music teacher

    kind of a long story but basically what

    happened is I started my journey as a

    teacher

    wanting to teach music I kind of came to

    realize that while I love music I love

    teaching music and I loved a lot of

    stuff about being a music teacher I

    wasn't a good fit or maybe those jobs

    that would be out there for me as a

    music teacher

    I really like working with technology I

    really like helping kids make cool stuff

    but a lot of what your job is when

    you're a music teacher

    it can be depending on where you live

    and what school you're and stuff it can

    be just you teach band and you do the

    marching band and you get scores at

    we've got these competitions and that's

    kind of what your metric of success is

    and I would have been really frustrated

    by that yeah for people who are

    listening as an outsider there's a whole

    field with like music technology that

    you can do but that's not the norm most

    of it is general music or large rounds

    so the technology integration and

    whatnot is like a side thing that you

    might be able to do like 10% of your

    time or 20% it's not as common to find

    like a full-time gig just doing music

    technology yeah and it kind of got to

    the point for me personally where I like

    the thought of having to spend most of

    my time conducting a band just seemed

    like the worst possible thing and I'm

    like that's not a judgment of people who

    like doing that I mean that's right

    there's something for everyone but like

    the reason I teach is because I want to

    help people make cool things and I

    really like coding I was coding as a

    hobby before I had even thought about

    being a computer science teacher and so

    it seemed like a nice fit that's like oh

    this is kind of a cool area it's still

    developing there's not too many

    traditions or patterns that I need to

    fall into yet I can kind of forge my own

    path and I was really appealing to me

    I say recovering because you know at

    getting getting a degrees hard and I

    feel a little bit burned out on music

    right now it's still part of why I teach

    but that's it's more of a joke than

    anything else maybe it's not a good joke

    but but that's that's that's what it is

    I still I still feel like being an arts

    educators a kind of core part of my

    teaching identity it's just not my only

    part of my teaching identity if that

    makes sense yeah so how did these

    interests in computer science and music

    kind of evolve in parallel or diverged

    from each other well I learned how to

    code by kind of trying to create my own

    musical instruments so I was kind of

    like they've always been intertwined for

    me and I got really into artistic coding

    like the art coding seen like the

    installation stuff and like the sound

    art pieces and like the cool

    visualizations and like evolving art

    like visual textures and stuff that

    people were doing like digital or

    digital humanities things it seemed

    really cool to me so it kind of evolved

    in parallel because as I was learning

    about pedagogy through teaching music I

    was also kind of contextualizing that

    stuff in like okay what if this was

    bigger than just teaching a large

    ensemble teaching band what if this was

    like have a more holistic

    interdisciplinary multidisciplinary

    space what would that look like to help

    people be creative not Joe

    with musical instruments or even with

    the trappings of visual art what if it

    was a kind of creative approach to

    teaching was grounded in computer

    science and coding and making software

    and that's kind of been my focus since

    then is trying to make my computer

    science classes more like an art or

    music class than a science class does

    that makes any sense yeah I mean that's

    how I approach my class I was trying to

    make it arts based coding classes the

    k-8 classes that I worked with and the

    makerspace

    space was a media Arts and Technology

    makerspace so arch was like a huge thing

    so yeah I get it but what I'm curious

    about is you said that you taught

    yourself how to code doing these things

    yeah how did you do that and how might

    you recommend teachers who maybe they've

    taught other subject areas and are now

    being asked to do computer science or

    now on their own deciding to do this how

    would you recommend that they learn how

    to code or how to do computer science in

    a classroom I might be kind of a bad

    person to ask I am of the mind that it's

    great to figure out how to integrate

    coding and tons of tons of stuff because

    it can enrich so much or integrate other

    subjects into a computer science class

    or whatever direction you're going but

    you can't substitute the like creative

    practice of doing it like you would

    never take a art class from someone who

    doesn't know how to do some sort of

    visual art that that practice of having

    that like experience of trying to be

    creative is so important you don't have

    to be amazing especially I mean I'm from

    Virginia and we're trying to kind of

    bootstrap this computer science

    education community here among

    practicing teachers and there's a lot of

    talk about doing integration with other

    core subjects but there's not enough

    talk about people actually training to

    be programmers or computer scientists

    there's not the time devoted to trying

    to make something cool and learning how

    that connects to everything else I don't

    know that you necessarily have to do it

    before you can teach before you can

    teach it I think that you can probably

    learn while teaching and like learn

    along with like people in your class but

    that decision to make something and like

    have a goal in mind some some kind of

    like interesting or rich or

    intrinsically kind of

    tractive kind of end product in mind

    whether that's educative or aesthetic or

    whatever that's so so so important

    because that kind of drives the

    communities that you interact with and

    you become a part of it drives the like

    domain that you end up specializing in

    and because like coding is huge this is

    all this information all these different

    practices that are kind of on this huge

    umbrella and learning coding for one

    thing is not the same as the earning

    coding for something else and ultimately

    you're gonna be part of a community when

    you learn how to code if you're not part

    of a community of coders who are doing

    something they're coding something like

    there's always there's always a modifier

    after that like say I'm learning how to

    code well what are you learning in a

    code code what that's the best a good

    question for me and so whenever someone

    asks me like hey how can I learn how to

    be a coder I'm like well you gotta like

    figure out something to make and make

    make that like start small but you know

    you can't sit and absorb through osmosis

    the stuff that you that would make you a

    better teacher if you're trying to get

    people to be creative had a heated

    discussion with an administrator one

    time when I was trying to argue for

    providing more professional development

    time in the district that is in and this

    particular administrator did not think

    that we needed more time because all we

    needed to focus on was pedagogy and not

    the content knowledge her argument was

    that you did not need to know how to

    code and how to do computer science in

    order to run a coding class and my

    analogy was okay so do you think that

    you would be able to go into a band

    class and teach a band how to play a

    song if you've never played an

    instrument and don't know how to read

    music and her response was yes not as

    well as you could because you have a

    background in it but because I have a

    solid understanding of pedagogy I'd be

    able to teach a band class and I almost

    fell out of my chair because I very

    strongly disagreed with that in that you

    have to have some kind of an

    understanding but to kind of like argue

    with myself and to give a little

    pushback with what you're saying but

    we've got this like shortage of coding

    and computer science educators and we've

    got people who are interested in it so

    how do we get them those resources or

    that time to get to at least being able

    to engage

    with kids you don't have to be an expert

    right away but I would argue that if you

    are gonna be teaching a coding or a CAS

    class that you need to eventually become

    an expert in that domain it doesn't need

    to be immediate but like you need to be

    working towards that constantly so that

    way it's not just like well I don't know

    what to do or where we're going next

    yeah I agree

    I I feel like this problem is really

    complicated there aren't there isn't one

    solution to getting enough computer

    science teachers to teach everyone

    computer science but the question I

    would ask first is one why does everyone

    need to know computer science I'm not

    saying that everyone shouldn't I have my

    own reasons for believing that lots of

    people should know how to code but I'm

    curious why X administrator X

    superintendent whoever it is Y wants

    everyone to know how to code and the

    answer to that question drives the rest

    of it yeah so if the answer is well

    everyone's gonna need to know how to

    code so I can get a job after high

    school well show me the data what do

    they need to know how to code because

    that informs what we need to teach

    teachers that's the fundamental question

    but then beyond that beyond the question

    of whether or not we need to teach

    everyone computer science we should have

    some coding teachers and we don't have

    any we basically don't have any so so

    what do we do about it and I think that

    there needs to be some investment in the

    concept of a key of the teacher artists

    and this is something from music and art

    education that there I mean people are

    really really good at talking about this

    so much so that it's almost like taking

    for granted that this is a thing that

    the teacher in the classroom is not just

    a pedagogue but also an artist in and of

    themselves and they have creative agency

    and kind of an a mandate to be creative

    in this context I don't know that we

    have that mindset in computer science

    right now that the teacher isn't just a

    expert teacher or an expert coder but

    they are an artist and that teacher

    artists role is kind of the foundation

    of any strong classroom culture or

    strong learning experience so with my

    background like I understand where

    you're coming from but people who might

    not have read about teacher as artists

    what would you describe what a teacher

    as an artist might look like versus

    somebody who is not when I'm planning my

    curriculum or when I'm planning a lesson

    or I'm planning a project or something

    like that I'm

    thinking about I don't start from the

    programming content knowledge that needs

    to be transmitted I'm starting from what

    are we interested in creating and so

    that always starts with a conversation

    with my classmates my students my

    colleagues whoever I'm working with in

    that moment and from there we're kind of

    collaboratively designing stuff and

    we're treating ourselves as a collective

    of artists who are trying to say

    something about the world using the

    stuff we make not necessarily a

    collective of entrepreneurs who are

    trying to solve a problem sometimes

    people are interested in solving

    problems and so our artistic endeavor is

    to solve problems and that's great but

    sometimes we're just from interested in

    making something that's really cool or

    they're really disturbing or you know

    really fun right or whatever and that's

    an and but we're coming in into it with

    a mission of what to put out into the

    world that will represent us and then

    from there as a as a teacher I kind of

    flip that in my mind I'm thinking okay

    how can I weave in all the different

    content and skills and practices that

    these students need to have in order to

    one meet the standards set by the state

    and to more importantly be successful in

    their creative mission now that that

    creative like that cycle of project

    cycles is what I it's not the super

    inventive name but that's what I would

    call it in my classes that project cycle

    can be long it could be a whole year or

    it can be short it can be two weeks or a

    week or less and we might do a bunch of

    those throughout the year or we might

    just take on a really ambitious project

    and it takes a lot of time to make it

    work but when I'm in the classroom with

    students I'm a team member I'm part of

    that process of trying to help them

    create that thing and then sometimes I'm

    leading more and sometimes I'm just

    sitting back and like throwing throwing

    out Clues but I'm not playing the role

    of the expert transmitting knowledge for

    them to replicate and prove to me that

    they know I'm not playing the role of

    somebody who is their boss who's trying

    to get them to do something specific I'm

    playing the role of a co-creator a

    collaborator or a facilitator yeah so I

    think that actually ties into a lot of

    interviews that I've done that are gonna

    be released by the time this episode

    comes out but you haven't had the chance

    to listen to yet John it's one of the

    reasons why in an interview with Bob

    Irving I

    talk about reading outside of the field

    so don't just read computer science

    education research read educational

    research from other subject areas but

    then read stuff outside of the field of

    education in general because you'll

    constantly be learning new things yeah

    so what you described is similar to what

    Bob describes and he has a background in

    humanities which is similar to what

    sandy describes which she has background

    in computer science as a professional

    which is also similar to what katie

    describes but she has a background as a

    second grade and fourth grade teacher so

    like we're all kind of converging on

    this same idea of facilitating and kind

    of like leading with the kids not like

    stepping in front of them but kind of

    like walking along beside them and maybe

    guiding here and there but then taking a

    step back and letting them kind of

    choose their own path so it's all kind

    of coming together in my mind at least

    with episodes that will have released by

    the time this one comes out that's

    awesome yeah and I don't know that I'd

    necessarily vibe with the word

    facilitation it might just have too much

    baggage for me but in what way well I'm

    trying to unpack it a little bit I'm not

    sure because sometimes it is

    facilitative sometimes I am kind of and

    this is the metaphor that I use a lot is

    when you create instructional material

    or or like a an example or a tutorial

    video or something for students to play

    with an experiment with that's like

    dropping an artificial reef to the

    bottom of the ocean right the goal is

    that you drop that reef into the right

    place so that all and this is this is a

    pretty ham-fisted metaphor I don't know

    anything about marine biology but you

    drop it into the lot on the ocean the

    idea is that life-forms can kind of take

    that and make it their home and they

    change it and adapt to it and it's kind

    of a spark that kind of helps kickstart

    a community and then eventually

    hopefully that community is creating

    their own structures to build off of and

    you kind of become a participant rather

    than the person who's dropping those

    those artificial reefs and sometimes you

    need to drop more than one I mean

    probably more more often than not you

    need to drop more than one to kind of

    yet get things going

    and it's a little more complicated than

    that obviously because no kid is gonna

    interpret that action in the same way

    not every kid is gonna latch on to the

    things that you throw at them so it can

    it's more complicated and

    more relational than the way I'm

    describing it I feel like facilitation

    sometimes not always is used as a term

    to describe a person who knows better

    setting up a sandbox when in reality I

    think it can be more egalitarian than

    that I guess mm-hmm so I describe myself

    as a facilitator for years because of my

    issues with teacher in that it seems a

    bit more one direction in terms of

    mm-hmm I am the person with knowledge

    and you were the person receiving the

    knowledge and I know not everyone views

    it that way but I was trying to find a

    way to describe what I was doing and so

    I say I design and facilitate

    educational experiences yeah trying to

    put myself like at the same level not

    above not below but just kind of like

    learning alongside because I learned

    from kids they learn from me we learn

    from each other they learn from each

    other etc

    yeah but facilitation I still it's not a

    word that I'm like sold on like this is

    it

    this is exactly describing what I'm

    doing and I don't know if this belongs

    in this podcast or not but I kind of

    feel like sometimes facilitation and

    project-based learning and some of these

    more progressive philosophies of

    teaching are kind of used as a cop-out

    to avoid requiring the teacher to be a

    an expert or to be someone who comes in

    with a lot of community capital or

    someone who comes in with a lot to offer

    sometimes it seems like say oh well you

    don't know any of this well that's okay

    because you're gonna learn alongside the

    students and it'll be emergent and in

    that that's okay because it you're

    facilitating that's true to a point but

    also it's not a its lateral it's not

    above the students but the teacher needs

    to be a different kind of collaborator

    then a then appear is most of the time

    sometimes I mean I'm not gonna ever say

    that if it everything needs to be one

    way but I worry a little bit of talking

    going back to the professional

    development piece that sometimes people

    come in and they say well you know you

    got to teach computer science now and

    it's okay that you don't know anything

    about computer science because you're

    gonna be learning alongside the kids and

    great please learn alongside the kids

    but also is that really a good

    experience for the kids I don't know

    maybe it's

    when you are positioning yourself as a

    co learner or facilitating or however

    you want to describe it you also at some

    point need to know where you're going

    where you can go and where you cannot go

    or you're just gonna run into walls or

    troubles that are not necessary for

    students to engage in so as an example

    there was a scratch project that kid was

    working on and they really wanted to do

    this thing and I was like trying to give

    them space to experiment with it it

    eventually got to a point where it's

    like oh well that very specific thing

    you're trying to do you actually can't

    do very well in scratch because I've

    tried doing it before so here's an

    alternative thing that I'm gonna guide

    you towards and because I knew that I

    was able to prevent hours of frustration

    trying to get this thing to work yeah

    for them so that's just kind of an

    example like you need to know where

    you're going down the road but you don't

    necessarily need to be the expert and

    all-knowing I can answer every question

    kind of a thing there are many times

    we're like I'd come back the next day

    and be like okay I thought about your

    question some more and here's what I

    found out here's the process I took to

    figure out that question or the answer

    to the question yeah I completely agree

    and and there's got to be a balance as

    in all things I've been really thinking

    a lot about the pedagogy framework that

    I'm coming at and coming at things with

    and I've recently started playing a lot

    of Dungeons and Dragons with my friends

    I've been kind of a haven't had an

    affinity for that stuff for a long time

    it's basically like the only media I

    consume now is watching people play

    Dungeons and Dragons so I'm the what we

    call the dungeon master which is kind of

    a like oppressive sounding term but but

    the role of the dungeon master is to be

    the like kind of the manager of the

    world and the person who comes up with a

    lot of the story and who can they play

    the part of everyone except for the

    players who each play a one individual

    player in this vast world of monsters

    and magic and you know towns and cities

    and guards and all this stuff and

    there's a lot I mean a shocking number

    of parallels to teaching to good

    teaching in that you are a player in the

    game so part of the whole point is for

    you to have fun so if you're running a

    game and that you hate it

    even if players are having a great time

    you're not doing what you need to do

    like you

    you are situated in the game with a lot

    of responsibilities but also as someone

    who's supposed to be having fun with

    everyone there that to me kind of gets

    at some of the the nature of teaching in

    some contexts where you have a lot of

    responsibility to make sure everyone can

    be can feel successful and to kind of

    participate in this experience that has

    a certain level of verisimilitude where

    things seem real and the stakes seem

    real and you're not just going through

    the motions but also you're responsible

    for playing the game with the people at

    the table not for the people at the

    table does that make sense

    yes having played a little bit de

    Dungeons and Dragons it makes perfect

    sense to me and I think it'll make sense

    to people who haven't played it just

    that description you gave perfect just a

    quick note

    verisimilitude means kind of lifelike

    for people who haven't come across that

    word it's so frequently in qualitative

    so glad I used it right and you can tell

    that John is very well-read I'm just

    kind of picturing here though you

    introducing yourself at like the first

    meet the teacher night you would be like

    hi parent I'm gonna be your child's

    computer science dungeon master like

    yeah that would be awesome that would go

    over real well oh great well the word

    we've been looking for it's not

    facilitator it's dungeon master I think

    you could seriously write something

    about that that is a really good way of

    describing it how you are kind of

    designing the experience but you're also

    playing the game itself

    my wheels are spinning I'll be thinking

    about this for days so thank you and and

    the nice thing is that if you ask anyone

    who done who DMS Dungeon Master's if

    it's a lot of work they'll tell you yeah

    and if you ask them do you need to have

    some skills to bring to the table when

    you do this they'll be like absolutely

    but it's not an oppressive I just popped

    in to Mike it's not an oppressive kind

    of situation it's not I come in with all

    of this knowledge and I am the

    all-knowing being dispensing rules and

    perilous dungeon crawls from above it's

    it's relational it's a relational piece

    and you're trying to generate on an

    engagement and the

    of progress and that's so hard for a lot

    of people and a lot of novice dm's come

    into the game and they feel like that

    they either need to be like the

    encyclopedia or they need to be the

    vengeful God smiting players from above

    and neither of those are good approaches

    to teaching or any kind of game play

    yeah that parallels so many of the

    discussions in the previous interviews

    on the podcast it just replaced diem

    with teacher facilitator one of the

    things that you've mentioned several

    times is communities how have can be

    computer science communities or just

    communities in general kind of impact

    how you learned computer science I

    cannot overstate how crucial community

    and I use the term extra scholastic just

    to be very clear about where these

    communities are situated extra

    scholastic communities have and it's

    that's so clunky but they've played such

    a huge role in my education as a teacher

    and as a musician and as a coder and

    everything else given that I've never

    taken a coding class ever and I my

    primary like musicianship identity is

    centered around electronic music and

    dance music and musical production of

    course I haven't taken a class and those

    either because they're not offered to

    music teachers pre-service music

    teachers and all of that stuff it comes

    from being situated inside of a

    community so just to back up a little

    bit all knowledge is situated right

    knowledge exists in relationship to

    other things and people you ask the

    question what is now situated within and

    you say communities of course because

    the the thing that you learn is passed

    down or you're learning it from someone

    or something else that is in

    relationship and in dialogue with other

    things and that that is to me kind of

    the fundamental goal of education is not

    to transmit knowledge but to hold people

    into communities of learning and

    creativity and and these communities are

    not formalized in in that you can find

    the space where they live and I mean you

    can find spaces where so I'm

    of them live but it's my like you know

    network of mentors who don't know I

    exist and though those are the people

    who who I think of when I'm trying to

    figure out how to be a better teacher

    and it's complicated because learning

    like that requires a lot of personal

    motivation and a resilient and kind of a

    resiliency that not everyone should have

    maybe an obsessiveness that not everyone

    it would be happier with my goal my role

    as a teacher is to help make that

    transition into being a community member

    or to feeling feeling as if you belong

    in a community more smooth and require

    less kind of trial and tribulation if

    that makes sense

    yes I've definitely got some questions

    about how you could apply that in the

    classroom setting but I'm curious what

    characteristics about the community or

    how it functioned in particular impacted

    you

    it was the self-directedness of it and

    and also importantly the the lack of

    corporate sponsorship and that sounds

    kind of like political and and it's

    because it is that the community is I'm

    a part of are not a content management

    system they're not a set of modules on

    adhesive or whatever you know learning

    platform you're using it's it's a bunch

    of people who are sharing stuff because

    either someone asked them to share it or

    they just felt like they would have

    needed it when they were learning and

    that to me it's awesome it's just it's

    just great obviously the situation is

    not as utopian in reality as what I'm

    describing there are lots of problems in

    online community spaces and it doesn't

    you don't have to look far to find all

    of the examples of racism and misogyny

    and oppression and ableism and

    homophobia and transphobia all this all

    the stuff that you imagine when you

    think of the dark side of the internet

    all that stuff exists if you're

    privileged enough to find communities

    that are safe it also ends up being a

    very like a kind of a collegial

    atmosphere and I do want to say I use

    the word privilege intentionally I

    present as a white male I have enjoyed

    all the privileges associated with that

    and so my experience in online

    communities learning has been shaped by

    that identity piece and so I'm fully

    aware that there are lots of people who

    may not be able to feel safe in those

    spaces and that's another piece of what

    forms on teaching philosophy how can we

    build better communities where more

    people can kind of participate in

    learning and teaching grounded in care

    and creativity okay so the million

    dollar question how do you try and

    foster a sense of community within your

    own classroom a safe space where kids

    can learn and share together like what

    you described well that is the question

    right there are a lot of factors that

    make kids feel safe unsafe in school I

    was not interested I was not interested

    in being a teacher for a long time

    because school felt so oppressive and

    unsafe the solution that I try to do is

    to first take kids seriously as creative

    people who have agency

    everyone does it's just a matter of

    finding a space where you can kind of

    flex that muscle and be like what what

    you do in that space matters convincing

    kids that they're in a space where their

    voice and their creative output matters

    and that we care about it is V like

    central challenge of my teaching I wrote

    a whole chapter on affinity spaces which

    is G an author that I mentioned in

    several of the podcasts he talks about

    these informal online spaces and how

    they work together to learn very

    complicated things and they're doing it

    in an informal context without like

    overt I'm the teacher you're the student

    kind of roles in his writings he talks

    about well how can we apply this into

    education so there are some suggestions

    on the D bit on how to do that but it's

    difficult to do it in a way that doesn't

    feel artificial or forced

    yeah and that's that's the challenge is

    that I am split between the idea that

    the community space in the classroom is

    the community that we're trying to

    pull people into I think that's part of

    it well there's also so much outside of

    the classroom mm-hmm that's so important

    and if anything that stuff is going to

    be where kids have the richest

    experiences because they're not bounded

    by the logistical concerns of being in

    school my background leads me to believe

    that being in class in school is

    probably not the best way to learn

    anything it's probably the most

    effective way to get everyone to learn

    something but maybe not the best way of

    getting one person to learn the thing

    they care about you're also fighting

    against a lot of the norms and values of

    a school that can run counter to this

    idea that students are being introduced

    to communities where they can learn and

    be creative and have agency so much of a

    voice school the design is to take

    students agency away and replace it with

    agency of the teacher and what the

    teacher believes to be important one

    good example really practical like close

    to home example is I'm running my best

    programming class and so as a disclaimer

    this works because I know all these kids

    really well I've taught them before and

    they're also have opted in to aid in

    advanced level of coursework and it's

    not an introductory class so I don't

    know how to work make this work for an

    introductory class disclaimer but the

    the way this advanced class is working

    is it came in

    I kind of helped him through some some

    basic stuff to kind of get their skills

    back back up to where they were at the

    end of their introductory course I I was

    just really upfront and said the way I

    want to run this class is that you all

    make something cool and we do with that

    product whatever we want I had a bunch

    of kids were like oh we should make a

    game and sell it and a lot of kids were

    like let's make a game and like open it

    and like so it's unfiltered and we could

    play it at school and all that stuff

    well I kind of like listened to all of

    that and that was all valid and we are

    making a game together like as a huge

    team of you know 20 people and and I've

    worked really hard to make sure that I'm

    providing them with some scaffolds I

    make it easy to be successful but I'm

    not in charge of what they're doing

    I'm in charge of making sure that what

    they're doing is gonna end up being a

    value

    experience that they learn things and

    that this comes back to a lot of the

    stuff that we have been talking about

    before that I'm not focusing on content

    objectives first I'm weaving those in as

    we go so one thing that I want to ask

    about those like I'm all for connecting

    kids with communities outside of the

    school but the younger you go in the

    grade level is the more likely you're

    gonna run into firewall issues but then

    there's also the communities themselves

    are engaged with by all types of people

    ages whatever so as an example in my

    dissertation I present some findings on

    use of swear words in this online

    community so on page 232 it talks about

    that and then the image on page 233 it

    says oh over a thousand times in a

    single forum post so how do you kind of

    navigate that balance between the school

    community where it has the school rules

    and norms and whatnot the expectations

    that the kids are supposed to follow and

    then encouraging them to go into these

    spaces where they don't have those same

    expectations and it might conflict with

    the school or community values in terms

    of how to behave and engage online yeah

    it's an awesome question I I teach high

    school so the conversation I have about

    this is different than it would be with

    middle school or elementary school

    students I have really strict policies

    about like misogynist racist homophobic

    transphobic language and they know that

    I feel very strongly about that stuff

    that kind of the stuff that I feel like

    or that students will feel like is

    crosses a line I'm generally not gonna

    even bring it up I won't bring that into

    class to inspect and analyze because

    that puts people and in a position where

    they're being asked to be really

    resilient even for a little bit of time

    we also have a conversation about hey I

    haven't seen everything on the internet

    and you might find something that is

    really bad if they find a site that's

    unblocked that should be like we have a

    responsibility as people who are kind

    participating community spaces to show

    whoever needs to know that that's that

    this is potentially being accessed by

    students or whatever I I mean and I'm of

    the mind that there's not a whole lot

    you can do to shelter students from

    toxic discourse in online spaces it's

    gonna happen whether or not you talk

    about it in class so better to talk

    about it than not and I'm not gonna ever

    sanction I'm not gonna ever send someone

    a link where they're gonna find stuff

    that's inappropriate I bet my resource

    is very very very carefully so I don't

    know it's it's a tricky situation I

    really have a good answer and kids are

    gonna find always find stuff especially

    the kids who are really motivated to

    learn on their own are always gonna find

    stuff before I can get to it and yeah

    even if you have the best firewall

    that's going to censor anything that

    might be deemed remotely inappropriate

    kids are still walking around many of

    them with devices that have access to

    the Internet in their pockets or in

    their backpack so the fact that you're

    gonna have this conversation about what

    is and is not considered appropriate

    content at a particular age group or a

    way to behave online like that's part of

    digital citizenship 101 that you need to

    be having so it's good to have those

    conversations you don't necessarily have

    to expose them to it in a class if

    you're working with younger kids but

    yeah at least talking about okay how do

    you respond to this kind of content it's

    it's kind of necessary nowadays like

    back in the day like when I was in

    school I didn't have a cell phone until

    high school so until that point I didn't

    have access to the internet unless I was

    on a computer in in class but walking in

    the halls nowadays kids can just pull

    out their phone I can't do anything to

    prevent a child from encountering

    extreme propaganda online but what I can

    do hopefully is have them be primed just

    to critically think about that stuff

    when they interact with it and know

    either one how to kind of box that up in

    their minds and do something about it or

    to put it in context of the rest of the

    discourse of communities that we've been

    talking about

    in class but if if they are in a space

    where we've never had a conversation

    they've never seen me kind of walk

    someone through what it's like to

    encounter whatever on line and what to

    do about it and how to think about it

    then I'm putting all the power in the

    hands of people who are trying to harm

    students I think that's kind of what's

    ending up being the reality of online

    engagement nowadays is that you kind of

    have to be ready to eject yourself at

    any given moment from a situation from

    from an online community or a forum

    thread or whatever you're engaging in

    because it can get out of hand it can

    get out of hand immediately yeah I I've

    spoken with some IT people and some

    administrators who have this fear of

    technology or a tool because it might

    allow them to do something that is

    inappropriate so some people have said

    well I don't want kids engaging in

    scratch because of the online community

    aspect I don't know if you're gonna talk

    to even though it's like policed by the

    scratch community or I don't want kids

    engaging with the offline version of

    scratch because they might be able to

    take those characters and make them do

    stuff that's not appropriate in my

    response to that is always like okay so

    are we gonna remove pencils from the

    classroom as well because they might

    write a curse word or might draw

    something inappropriate it's not the

    tool itself that we need to get rid of

    it's it's how we engage with it in the

    space that we need to talk about at

    least that's just kind of my opinion

    yeah I feel the same way I do think that

    tools have a lot to say to us about how

    we can approach the world and each other

    we've had conversations in the past

    about affordances and constraints of

    tools and your mention of the tools kind

    of reminds me of a conversation we

    previously had about the affordances and

    constraints of a language or a coding or

    CS platform would you describe what are

    some examples of that how you take that

    into consideration in your class some

    background I think ton about tools how

    we kind of form relationships with them

    especially in education

    and there there's a whole lot of you

    know kind of philosophical background

    that we can get into after we have this

    like after we get past this part but the

    the basic idea here is that the tools

    have agency they do things and they act

    on us and we act on them and it's kind

    of a dialogue so if I'm using it and

    this is kind of borne out in the you

    know classic metaphor like if you have a

    hammer everything's a nail the tool and

    then that's that's kind of kind of an

    exaggeration but it the tool shapes our

    way of knowing about things and so when

    we bring that to a coding space our

    tools our programming languages and

    frameworks and the frameworks that

    you're using are informing how you come

    to know about programming the the tool

    that you're using has a lot to say about

    what makes a good coder what makes a

    good programmer what makes a good

    software program that that's borne out

    in a lot of the kind of products that we

    interact with a lot you think about

    material design or you know the the

    Apple philosophy of product design or

    whatever that the tools are telling us

    what's important they have a political

    kind of agenda that they are forwarding

    through their interactions with us so

    taking that into the net in education

    space what do our choices of programming

    language or frameworks say about what we

    think makes a good programmer and then

    how does that affect who shows up in our

    class who feels safe who feels in power

    who feels disempowered in the classroom

    the big thing that I do too when I'm

    choosing tools is one I go for

    open-source almost all the time I think

    that's resonant with the mission of

    public education and I run classes where

    students are choosing their domains that

    they're focusing on and I I'm not

    running a domain-specific class now what

    I mean my domain is a set of skills and

    practices that are associated with a

    certain kind of product so a domain

    might be game development or mobile app

    development or full stack development or

    something like that that's a domain and

    it's great to be able to sign up for

    class like that because you get a lot of

    variation

    really like targeted practice on

    something but what you do when you do

    that is you take the creative

    possibility of programming as a way of

    knowing and you shrink it down to

    programming as a means to an end and I

    don't want my class to be that way if a

    student opts into that path where they

    are learning this very narrow framework

    this very narrow domain that's great

    because they've opted in but if I'm

    offering a programming class

    I'm not going to shrink down that

    creative possibility to something really

    narrow that may or may not be enacting a

    political agenda that I feel like is

    ethical yeah I think I'd like to

    interject example for younger grades to

    contextualize it so like an example

    scratch as a platform and a language an

    affordance of scratch is that you can

    create all these media arts related

    things and games

    it's block base you don't have to worry

    about syntax so you don't have to have a

    high level of reading ability to be able

    to engage with it things like that so

    those are some affordances but an

    example constraint is that because it's

    so heavily based on the visuals it is

    not very conducive to people who are

    blind so if you are unable to see or

    have difficulty with your vision you

    would not be able to engage with scratch

    as well as somebody who doesn't but then

    on the other side there's something like

    sonic pie which is text based and you

    write out lines of code which create

    music and so as an affordance it really

    allows you to synthesize music in an

    interesting way using code but as a

    constraint it does not allow you to make

    like the media art stuff that you could

    do in scratch in terms of like making a

    game or characters and whatnot so

    whatever platform you end up choosing

    are going to have these affordances that

    allow you to do things and then these

    constraints that kind of like prevent

    you from doing other things so you kind

    of have to take those into consideration

    when choosing what kind of platforms

    that you're going to use how do you take

    these different important constraints of

    a platform and how do you take into

    consideration how kids can engage with

    and what they can create with him how

    does it impact your decisions it impacts

    them fundamentally I I kind of have a

    library of stuff that I think of when

    kids come to me with different ideas and

    we do do a lot of work to help kids come

    up with ideas

    I can't discount that that kids don't

    come in most time they don't come in

    with ideas at all if you're super lucky

    I kill come in and know exactly what

    they want to get out of your class and

    that's so great because you can just

    throw like resources and and stuff at

    them and they just like soak it up and

    make things and get bruises yeah yeah

    yeah they don't like it anyway but most

    most of my students can't do that

    I can't I can't solve that problem for

    them without teaching them how to come

    up with ideas and so we we talk about

    that a lot and it's not a Design

    Thinking kind of thing it's we're not

    trying to solve problems we're trying to

    we're trying to empower them to use

    their voice with code and so for a kid

    who really connects with music and they

    feel most empowered to use their voice

    in in kind of musical context and I'm

    gonna use something like sonic pie or

    any of the other music coding platforms

    that or have them make like a little

    sampler thing or I mean though there are

    infinite examples of ways to use sound

    and so what I'm doing is I'm picking a

    tool that makes that path easy because

    that the stuff that doesn't matter

    should be easy the stuff that matters

    should be discovered

    choosing a platting a language using a

    platform can feel super high stakes

    especially for kids who don't really

    know what their options are so I'm not

    going to let them choose a tool at first

    I'm going to either show them a bunch of

    tools and have them kind of evaluate

    them based on their own on their their

    perception of the affordances and

    constraints but then a lot of times we

    do the ideation process out of the

    context of coding and then I say okay so

    the thing that you chose it makes a

    whole lot of sense for you to start with

    this and I show them kind of the basics

    and then they explore that thought

    process is basically what I took to add

    on the languages each each time I did in

    the class that is with so I mentioned in

    a previous podcast with Bob Irving that

    every year or every semester

    you can try and add in one more thing so

    learn a new language learn a new

    platform and keep building on that if

    you're new to CS so you don't have to

    feel like you're overwhelmed starting

    with like ten programming languages at

    once and for me the guiding questions

    that were what language or platforms

    should I add had to do with what are

    kids interested in that they feel like

    they cannot do in the current platforms

    in other words if using platform a and B

    if they feel constrained about making

    music then I need to find another

    platform that is more conducive to that

    so like that's how I got to Sonic PI and

    then eventually some kids were like well

    I want to make apps for my device and we

    had a lab full of Mac's so we worked

    with Xcode with Swift to make uhm iOS

    programs and whatnot so yeah those

    decisions were guided by the interests

    of the kids that I was working with

    even though we still had to take into

    account the constraints of here are the

    devices that we have available in the

    operating systems the reasoning in this

    class what can we do that's interesting

    yeah and and I think it's important to

    note that not every kid is going to push

    up against those barriers that the tools

    present I really wanted them to when I

    first started teaching CS because I

    wanted to have this kind of language

    agnostic classroom where everyone was

    doing all sorts of stuff and we were all

    learning you know like kind of kind of

    like this diverse knowledge base I think

    a lot of kids end up being pretty

    frustrated by that they felt like it was

    too open they they were like floating

    and avoid as opposed to be floating in a

    vast sea of endless possibilities it's

    just kind of a cheesy way to say it they

    they felt they felt isolated rather than

    empowered by a choice this year I've

    been kind of focusing on trying to

    institute some creative constraint at

    least at first and kind of cultivate

    this willingness to push against the

    boundaries so that when they do get to

    the get to a point where they are

    pushing against the tools they're using

    they feel empowered to ask how to get

    past those constraints and then we can

    switch stuff for people who are

    listening to this who feel intimidated

    by the idea of teaching more than one

    like programming language then just

    teach one because there's there's so

    many things you can do especially if

    you're not if you're thinking if your

    teacher

    Highschool or older students who might

    get through the basics little bit faster

    you don't have to worry so much about

    the tool instituting a lot of

    constraints on you because they're using

    tools that are designed specifically to

    have a lot of flexibility that's a good

    point when you yeah the tool especially

    in EdTech the tool provides a lot of

    scaffolding for you so if you're using

    scratch that tool has a lot of

    scaffolding to make sure that you can be

    successful for the purpose that it is

    designed for but javascript has some

    constraints it can take students a

    really long time to get to that point

    where they're pushing against those

    constraints but like it I mean there's

    always gonna be constraints and when you

    find the end of those then hopefully

    what happens is people either adapt and

    figure out really cool creative ways of

    circumnavigating those constraints or

    they feel empowered to leave the nest so

    to speak and kind of strike out on their

    own and I feel like I I had no reason to

    believe this but I suspect that last

    step happens a lot out of school and not

    so much in school and I didn't use the

    word affordances constraints when I talk

    about tools and I want to make sure I

    reef or we move on I wanted to reframe

    that a little bit because tools can have

    affordances and constraints designed

    into them but I also like the language

    that tools afford and constrain users

    it's an active act because from my

    perspective the tools aren't inert

    they're not inanimate they have agency

    they are I mean for lack of a better

    term they are alive given the social

    context that we have situated them

    within one of the things I appreciate in

    our discussions that we've had over the

    years is kind of talking about different

    theories and philosophies so I was

    hoping we could shift into a discussion

    on that I'm wondering if you could share

    some of the ways of knowing or being

    that kind of influence your approach to

    education or learning the thing I talked

    about with tools having agency and like

    the objects being alive comes from a

    scholar named Jane Bennett she wrote a

    book called vibrant matter a several

    years ago where she's kind of exploring

    the vibrancy the aliveness of material

    and like

    she uses the term thing power the power

    that things have to kind of call to us

    or draw us in and the relationships that

    we form with these objects it's

    difficult to talk about this kind of

    approach I think that some people call

    like new materialism if you're looking

    for something good something to Google

    its Sokol talk about it because you have

    to use metaphor to get at it because you

    can't a lot of people when you say like

    hey the tool is alive

    they kind of like balk at that but if

    you think about it like that the things

    that you that you have and you interact

    with do have a relationship with you and

    you can think about it sort of in terms

    of like a sentimental attachment to an

    object that object is a part of you if

    you think about it and I'm coming at

    this come from a musician's perspective

    you play the saxophone your body is

    literally a part of the instrument there

    is an unbroken air column that starts

    somewhere in your lungs and ends at the

    end of the bell and really extends into

    the whole room and you vibrate the air

    with this air column so you are a part

    of this object as objects as a part of

    you as you're going through this music

    making process and so to me it seems

    like a no-brainer that these objects

    have agency and they they are alive

    I think anyone who spends a lot of time

    with a thing you you do kind of see the

    aliveness of it and then if you're

    thinking about this from an educational

    perspective if you have things in your

    room objects educational technology and

    things are alive then those objects are

    either students or teachers or both and

    you kind of have to think about okay

    well what's the pedagogy of this object

    what philosophical underpinnings are

    they bringing to to the curriculum what

    do they contribute to the room what do

    what relationships do they have with

    students even if you don't really buy

    the new materialist philosophy thinking

    about it metaphorically in those terms

    can also be really useful which kind of

    brings me to another perspective bruno

    latour Acton's kind of an actin Network

    actin is spelled a CT AMT it's is

    something that acts something that acts

    upon something else and I don't think he

    went as far as to say that the objects

    the Acton's have sentience or agency but

    thinking about education

    technology as an act n't upon students

    is I think kind of interesting and I

    think about this a lot in terms of

    constraining tools or scaffolds these

    actin --tz-- are acting upon our

    knowledge systems and the way that we

    make meaning of educational experiences

    so what's an example of an actin in the

    cs education sphere oh is a good example

    I mean we act upon Sphero by programming

    it and making you do things and breaking

    it and stepping on it and tripping over

    it and all that stuff but Sphero acts

    upon us too because we are negotiating

    some sort of nascent knowledge of

    programming with Sphero in dialogue with

    Sphero it's acting upon our ontology x'

    our schemas i suppose is one way of

    saying it our understanding of what is

    programming what is coding what MIT what

    who's a computer scientist what does a

    computer scientist do if in the

    classrooms fearow is situated by this

    context of computer science

    then the Sphero is acting upon us and

    telling us how we should be perceiving

    its role in computer science it's not

    just a vehicle or pedagogy or curriculum

    it's a or a being vehicle is is too

    strong the thing is never just the thing

    it's situated by the community and the

    context it's within and then when we

    give these objects life by being human

    with them they do act upon us their

    stimulus at the very least that we make

    meaning of that that's that's kind of

    one example of an act and I hope that

    makes sense yeah in a sphere oh for

    reference is a little robot that you can

    like program just in case people haven't

    come across it it's pretty popular one

    though and and so this kind of the next

    step here if you're gonna give like like

    the Grand Tour of my obsessions in

    theory and practice is this idea of

    dialogic allottee that we kind of make

    meaning of our lives in dialogue with

    others there's a philosopher german

    philosopher called martin buber who has

    this famous thing that he said i'm gonna

    paraphrase that we only come to know

    ourselves by coming to know someone else

    and that's kind of a one way of

    thinking about this that we learn based

    on this kind of social context which is

    pretty pretty well grounded and covered

    by kind of this progressive

    constructivist philosophy of Education

    this idea of dialogic allottee takes it

    a step further that we we come to know

    ourselves by being a dialogue with this

    vast decentralized network of competing

    simultaneously speaking voices and these

    voices give rise to kind of emergent

    meaning given our position within them

    and I mean in being a teacher I feel

    like I am kind of surrounded by this

    vast disconnected cacophonous set of

    chorus of voices that all have this kind

    of agenda or idea of what computer

    science education is or should be and

    I'm and I come to know myself in

    dialogue with these tools and educators

    and philosophers and and everyone else

    either in reaction being reactionary to

    something or by following along and

    finding people whose voices match my own

    and by voices you mean like society at

    large or discourses from the field

    yeah yeah discourses is a good is a good

    word for it because I'm coming at this

    from kind of a new materialist place I

    do also kind of mean the literal voices

    of objects themselves because because I

    am situating dialogic ality and in my

    mind I'm situating this dialogue within

    the context of the objects have agency

    and so they're part of this conversation

    so you'd mention constructivism at the

    start of the podcast and constructivism

    if if you're unfamiliar with it is it's

    the idea that like knowledge is socially

    constructed individually understood and

    was like therefore unknowable beyond

    your own understanding of your knowledge

    so you I can't know what John knows and

    his understanding of reality but I can

    attempt to grasp it by like kind of

    conversing with him but then there's

    another idea of constructionism which is

    like you learn through doing and

    creating and making and like that is

    typically talk about and si si

    education while as constructivism is

    usually talked about in other areas of

    education and what it sounds like is

    you're kind of taking into account the

    voices that are inherent within an

    object itself and so even if you are

    constructing something creating

    something on your own you're still

    engaging in a dialogue even if you're

    unaware what the dialogue is and what

    the objects you're working with are

    basically inherently telling you in

    constructionism and this like seymour

    papert the idea is that learning by

    making and doing is kind of it kind of

    assumes the the end product there's it's

    productive there's a there's a there's a

    product at the end and I would I would

    say to that is when you create something

    you're putting a voice out into the

    world and that voice is part of this

    constructive social relationship where

    you are constructing knowledge and

    individually kind of reflecting and

    become and synthesizing that as part of

    your worldview or your knowledge base or

    whatever you want to call it is that

    something that is talked about in CS

    education research I have no idea see

    this is the problem is that I'm not up

    on the research scene a night I try to

    be but I haven't found yet anyone that's

    talking about that so that would be

    really interesting to see if others are

    discussing that yeah I I will say that

    the the critical code studies people are

    kind of getting at this stuff

    and critical code Studies is the kind of

    subfield within the digital humanities

    and some other disciplines have an

    intersection between many disciplines

    where people are looking at code itself

    as a kind of a text to be analyzed and

    be understood within the context of

    social realities that the critical and

    critical code studies comes from

    critical theory or critical race studies

    and stuff like that and there's a whole

    bunch of research that gets into that

    stuff but the basic idea is that you're

    looking at how

    texts or objects or ways of knowing help

    situate social reality and the impacts

    that these things have on people's lived

    experiences and and it's kind of with an

    eye toward activism and addressing

    oppression within communities so an

    example of critical code studies would

    be we look at the code of an app that

    tracks people's locations and we can

    kind of make some statements about the

    way that that might impact people's

    lived experiences who's being tracked

    and why but we can also look at the text

    of the code and see if the way that it's

    constructed is OP can offer any insight

    into its agency in the context of a

    human social reality we might look at

    the text of the code itself what words

    does it use one great example of this is

    in music and also it actually in a lot

    of tech fields we use the term master

    slave to describe the relationship

    between two objects that are

    communicating with one another one of

    them is in charge of the bus that's

    taking care of passing messages and

    managing all of the clients but the

    traditional term for this is master

    slave we're trying to get away from that

    right because that has a lot of baggage

    and says something about our

    relationship with technology and our

    relationship to each other so if we go

    through the code and we look at the text

    of the code what does the text of the

    code say about us and how does that how

    does the text of the code impact our

    live social reality given that the

    product that's a part of and one kind of

    simplistic way of looking at this if you

    there's a video you can look up on the

    internet where you have someone puts

    their hand under a soap dispenser and

    you can see that the person is white

    either hand is under the soap dispenser

    and the soap dispenses and then of

    someone with a darker skin tones a black

    person comes up and puts their hand

    under the sub dispenser in the soap

    doesn't dispense so critical code

    studies might say okay how can we look

    at the code and come to better

    understand how this machine is

    interacting and participate

    in some oppressive structures that we

    have been dealing with since before this

    piece of technology is ever around

    how can a piece of technology be racist

    critical code Studies is part of its

    part one of the communities that's

    trying to address that question when we

    talk about critical code studies we're

    also talking about what we should do

    about it and how how we can hold people

    accountable and hold machines

    accountable for the way that they impact

    our social reality and this is kind of a

    side note I don't know if this scholar

    puts themselves under the umbrella of

    critical code studies but they're kind

    of mentioned in that discourse is Sofia

    Noble and the book algorithms of

    oppression it's a good introduction to

    this idea the agency that are our

    objects have in so in constructing

    social reality for us it's about how

    search algorithms reinforce racial

    oppression and bias and unfortunately

    there's a lot of examples of that yeah

    yeah having read some similar studies so

    one of the things that I've kind of

    found interesting with research and

    going through these theories and

    philosophies is sometimes in theory they

    sound great and then when you get into a

    classroom with kids you try and do it

    and you go wow this this isn't gonna

    work yeah because of X Y & Z so I'm

    curious in what ways any theories in

    general have kind of been out of touch

    with your experience in the classroom or

    your day to day yeah totally

    that happens all the time the most

    important thing I need and any teacher

    will tell you this is that the most

    important thing is the relationship with

    students really like any problem can be

    solved if you form a good relationship

    with a student and talk to them about

    how to solve the problem so before we

    get into all the problems without the

    theories like that's that's the solution

    for those of you who are interested

    unfortunately it's very labor-intensive

    solution and it's not necessarily

    scalable or always healthy for everyone

    but but that's that's kind of one cure

    all the but that those theories that

    don't pan out totally so

    constructivism really totally doesn't

    pan out sometimes because you have to

    people have to have some intrinsic

    motivation to create and that doesn't

    always happen um it might be because the

    student doesn't see themselves as

    creative it might be because they went

    the first day they came to school

    wherever they are they were immediately

    smacked to the ground either physically

    or metaphorically and they no longer

    feel empowered or have like they have

    any voice in the classroom they might

    also feel like the stakes are either

    solo or so high as to be completely out

    of the scope of their lives there are so

    many problems so many different barriers

    to into implementing something like

    constructivism or project-based learning

    or whatever that those frameworks don't

    address and as a novice teacher it was

    very disillusioning to come into a

    classroom and feel like I am subscribing

    to a progressive philosophy and kids

    learn better when I'm just lecturing at

    them very discouraging the the solution

    there I think is not to just lecture at

    them I think it's to kind of understand

    that we are participating in a system

    that is it's incredibly difficult to

    catalyze change and you are one cog in

    this vast educational meat grinder that

    either like some kids come out okay and

    a lot of kids don't and for whatever

    reason they get chewed up and spit out

    and project-based learning doesn't have

    a whole lot of things to offer to help

    that problem it's important to have

    these discussions because I personally

    think there needs to be some kind of

    experimentation involved with actually

    taking theories and philosophies and

    applying them into a some kind of a

    learning experience and then there needs

    to be research more on ok how did that

    actually work because like in theory it

    should do a B and C but what we found is

    a B and Z one and the other piece here

    is we have to be and and I know you you

    and I have talked about this before we

    have to be super careful of what we're

    measuring

    when we do that because too often people

    do this kind of inquiry and they're

    measuring some sort of content-based or

    skills-based

    end point when they when they're trying

    to figure out if project-based learning

    is effective the word effective is used

    a lot and it's important to have

    effective education I mean there there

    are some things I just need to happen

    like you need to know how to read but

    effective at what yeah yeah we're pretty

    good at getting most kids to that bare

    minimum level of self-sufficiency and

    and obviously at the margins we have a

    lot of work to do especially when we

    talk about students who are dealing with

    struggles outside of school whether that

    be socioeconomic or dealing with

    violence or whatever else and/or

    students with disabilities students who

    are differently abled who may not get to

    the point where they are self sufficient

    given whatever context we're talking

    about because of the school structure

    and the way that things are happening

    for them in their day to day lives while

    they're being educated it's really

    important to figure out what we care

    about when we ask what is good teaching

    and when we have to figure out what

    we're looking for when we are looking

    for good learning what does it look like

    to have high quality learning and that

    will hopefully lead us to what

    constitutes high quality teaching the

    traditional method or assessing high

    quality learning is with tests which are

    kind of aligned to state standards and

    I'm not totally convinced that that's

    the best way to measure high quality

    learning you might you might suspect

    given the things I'm saying in this

    podcast I don't really vibe with that

    it's not that important to me and and

    honestly get in computer science on I

    might make some enemies for saying this

    but I don't know that the world would be

    better if we had more really awesome

    coders you know like I think that the

    world would be better if we had really

    creative empowered socially conscious

    people who happen to know how to code

    that would be awesome but the the idea

    that we

    change the world for the better by just

    creating more people who can make

    software I think that there's a lot of

    evidence to suggest that that's not the

    way to make the human condition improve

    on the long term they haven't released

    yet at the time of this recording but

    there are multiple other interviews

    where people have read it reiterated

    similar things so that is comforting

    how are you continuing to evolve or

    refine what you're doing like every year

    when I was in the classroom look

    different than the previous year when

    when kids would come back they would be

    like why don't we do this when I was

    here and it's like well because I'm

    trying to get better yeah if I I kept

    doing the same thing every year then I'm

    not growing and I'm not helping you as

    much as I think I could so it how are

    you trying to refine things oh man like

    so many so anyways I the thing I hope to

    get way better at in the near future is

    having the stakes feel real by situating

    the classroom in the context of the real

    world I think that's the thing was

    missing from a lot of my work right now

    is that kids come into my class

    we're not grounding anything in like a

    reality of someone or the reality of

    like you know when you're when you're

    musician and I keep bringing the

    contents of music because this is my

    background but I think there's a lot of

    other things that kind of follow this

    too when you're a musician you have

    there's a goal right that you're gonna

    perform whatever you're doing at some

    point you're gonna share it with the

    world and so those stakes are real you

    have to you have to learn the things and

    get better in order to put on that

    product that performance and I don't

    want my coding classes to be product

    oriented because I don't want to be like

    reteaching startup culture to these kids

    and creating a whole new generation of

    people who end up breaking the world but

    what I really want to do is have them

    come into the room and feel like they're

    being taken seriously and that the

    stakes for them to show me who they are

    by being creative are there and real and

    that I'm going to value that and the

    people around them will value that still

    try to figure out how to

    that's the big one for me right now so

    what questions have I not asked you that

    you'd like to discuss I mean I I have

    questions for you about the stuff that

    you're doing like it one of the things

    I'm struggling with is how to provide

    this kind of asynchronous and choice

    based framework for or learning code

    independently and this just seems like

    there's so much room for

    misinterpretation and for like falling

    through the cracks like anytime I make

    something like I use I just just put

    this in context and Gary I know you use

    a lot of video tutorials and stuff for

    your for your things that that's like

    something you do all the time and I I do

    the same thing and I also make a lot of

    text tutorials and like like blog posts

    that walk people through things and like

    when I first started making these I just

    have kids copying the code in the videos

    which is great to get started but then

    there was never a point where they kind

    of started to hack into these examples

    and start building their own thing

    because it was it was an end point it

    was convergent rather than me a catalyst

    for some sort of creative action on

    their part so that's that's create that

    to be able to be able to create things

    that do that that are like at the seed

    of something or like jet fuel for

    someone who's ready to create something

    so difficult and there's nothing to me

    as a learner there's nothing better than

    finding that resource that like sets you

    off and just like and you just go is

    that I mean that that's half of the

    battle right I spent hours and hours and

    hours finding these things that can help

    me as a learner as a teacher I don't

    think that search matters that much I

    feel like kids if they can just find the

    thing they can do it um but maybe it

    does I don't know what's your

    perspective on that

    so that's know this summer I did a

    presentation at SD and I was talking

    about project-based learning with

    scratch and in the presentation I had up

    on the screen this continuum of

    project-based learning and on one end of

    the continuum it was fixed in the middle

    it was flexible and on the other end it

    was open so a fixed project is like I

    want you to create a game with three

    sprites five variables two conditions

    and it needs to do blah blah blah so

    like that is like it's a project that

    you that you're creating but it's it's

    very set in stone you know what the

    expectations are on the other end of the

    spectrum is I want you to create

    something that uses variables how could

    you use variables to create something

    that's interesting to you and so that

    being open more towards the middle is

    okay you're gonna create a game and it

    can it needs to include variables and

    conditions but what kind of a game that

    looks like that's up to you I'm not

    gonna dictate how many sprites or how

    many of each concept or understanding

    you're gonna demonstrate etc just use

    them in some meaningful way to move

    towards the middle so in the resources

    that I create with Buddha I am

    intentionally have them mapped out so

    that every release that I create has

    some kind of a balance along that

    spectrum and even within those resources

    like there are project sequences and

    then there are extensions and then

    there's like remix opportunities like

    there's all these different ways of

    engaging with the same thing so you can

    approach it from many different angles

    or perspectives and that is very

    intentional by design because I want

    kids to have that opportunity to kind of

    create in a way that works for them some

    kids prefer more open-ended stuff some

    kids might need more of this rigid fixed

    criteria and I think that's okay it's

    just it's hard to create those kind of

    resources

    because it takes a lot of time and

    having like been the person who would

    teach a class in it all day from as my

    full-time gig would then teach drumline

    at night and then potentially take

    classes grad classes and then on the

    weekends and what week nights I had off

    creating all these resources it's very

    difficult to do so I'm grateful that I

    can do that full time with boot-up now

    because like that's my gig and I can now

    create these things for teachers who

    don't have that time but that's kind of

    like my general approach yeah that's

    that's so useful

    I really like that framework that the

    way that I had been doing things was I

    would create targeted resources or like

    specific kids and specific projects that

    kind of walk them through the problems

    that they're grappling with I think that

    I was probably just like too close to

    their projects that I was trying to

    create things that were so tailored that

    they didn't have to extrapolate at all

    mm-hmm and I think that that process of

    extrapolation is actually super valuable

    because you're recontextualizing and

    trying to transfer knowledge well then

    the other piece is like there's so much

    in coding that is like does it really

    matter if they discover how to do this

    or and I just tell them yeah and kind of

    like expanding on the idea of looking at

    project-based learning as a continuum

    there's also this continuum with

    undergrads in particular I bring this up

    more and then I do with some grad

    students is that when you're working

    with kids even though a lot of

    universities are talking about a

    constructivist approach or inquiry based

    learning or project-based and

    facilitation and things like that it's

    not at the cost of direct instruction

    and it's not saying that you will never

    give direct instruction and the only

    thing you're gonna do is respond to

    questions with questions 100% of the

    time it's finding a balance and knowing

    when might it be more appropriate to

    respond with a question or guiding

    towards a resource or like a peer or

    something and when might it be more

    appropriate to say a quick thing on how

    to do something or demonstrate or model

    or whatever yeah so I don't have to just

    like completely avoid one approach in

    favor for a more progressive end and the

    other way around like you don't have to

    just lecture all the time yeah I kind of

    feel like in my teacher education

    journey I kind of thought that I would

    be able to teach without doing direct

    instruction because we never like talked

    about direct instruction it was

    discouraging for me to go into a

    classroom and be like wow I feel like I

    just lectured like for like 30 minutes

    and

    well they actually got it crap you know

    like am i my dad because of that no of

    course not that's not how it is

    what are some of the questions that you

    have for the field what are we doing

    about the large powerful corporations

    that are controlling the infrastructure

    of computer science I know that a lot of

    people have answers to that but I

    specifically for CS ed what are we doing

    about that and how can we be more

    effective in dismantling and disrupting

    the power structures that have started

    to kind of calcify that's why I'm

    basically like a single-issue voter in

    that in that space I don't mind kind of

    outing myself as someone who is really

    concerned about the the power of these

    large corporations and I'm very very

    concerned about their presence in the

    classroom as kind of uncritical

    benevolent deities that lord over the

    learning that happens in the classroom

    so where my people go to connect with

    you so I easy used to reach on twitter

    my handle is @j stapes J sta PE s but be

    forewarned that there's also some like D

    and D content on there so it's not it's

    not purely me ranting about CS education

    or music education it's kind of all

    three of those things

    and without that concludes this week's

    episode of the CSKA podcast I hope you

    enjoyed the show and I hope you consider

    sharing with a friend next week we'll be

    back with another episode where I

    discuss some scholarship and unpack its

    potential implications

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