Recommendations for Preventing Burnout in Education (Part 1)

Building off the previous episode on depression, suicide, and CS education, this episode is a supercut of guests responding to how they take care of themselves and stave off burnout.

• Auto-generated transcript (click to expand)

  Welcome back to another episode of the CSK8 podcast.

  My name is Jared O'Leary.

  This week's episode is a little bit different

  than some of the episodes in the past, so instead of doing an interview,

  I'm doing a Supercut of several different interviews over the past year.

  I'm cutting out the parts where guests responded to me

  asking how they take care of themselves in order to stave off burnout.

  That is very common among educators.

  One of the reasons why I'm doing this, Supercut, is because September is National

  Suicide Prevention Month,

  so on to provide some suggestions from some of the previous guests

  on how to potentially stave off burnout and to help with overall mental

  and physical health and well-being while being an educator.

  In the show notes

  for this particular episode, I will link to each one of the interviews

  and I will interject in between each one of the interviews to say specifically

  who is providing this particular advice or responding to the question that I ask.

  And as always, you can find the show notes

  by clicking the link in the description or by visiting Gerard O'Leary dot com.

  And just a quick disclaimer, I did not ask this question from every single guest.

  So if you notice, I'm skipping some of the episodes.

  The reason why is because I simply did not ask the question.

  With that being said, we're going to start with episode 11 with Gail

  Lovely responding to the question on how to take care of yourself.

  Yes, it is. It is.

  It is a challenging thing teaching.

  And I think that the loss of autonomy

  that we had when I first started makes it harder.

  There's nothing more painful than knowing what you need to do to help some children

  and not being able to do it.

  And I think that causes burnout.

  I think another part of burnout

  is social media and email and connections happen 24 hours a day

  and we aren't good about putting up

  boundaries and saying, Yeah, you can email me parents,

  but I'm not answering on the weekends or I turn off my work

  email at 5:00 and I'm 100% family time or me time or whatever that is.

  And I've worked in grad education.

  I taught graduate school, but we haven't done a good job of helping

  new teachers come in, understanding it's okay to have boundaries.

  And I think that that's part of it.

  I think another part of that is that we also have

  this probably controversial thing to say, but I'll say it anyway.

  I think we also have some things out there that make it seem like

  some things are more important than they really are.

  So I call it the teacher's pet teacher syndrome.

  But it isn't just to just pay teachers.

  But this.

  The classroom needs to be beautiful and perfect

  and every piece of paper should have a beautiful font

  and a nice folder and we should do big projects

  or big holidays with the kids are doing big things to take it home to families.

  And all of those pressures may not be productive.

  And I think that it's about helping each other

  and ourselves make choices about where we expand our energy.

  It is sometimes feel like a little bit of a competition

  for who you have, who has at least an elementary school, the cutest room

  or the cutest blog.

  I think that we all need to learn

  and have the freedom to say, Not now or that's not my passion point.

  This is what I'm working on or whatever.

  And I'm not to say that it's not okay if I'm good to have cute

  and good and well-designed because it does matter.

  But I think I think there's some pressures that are new that weren't around

  not too long ago.

  Yeah.

  And one of your earlier points about disconnect

  from the job or the pressures.

  That's so important.

  I try and only check my email twice a day.

  So like once in the morning and once in the afternoon

  and I don't get any notifications on my phone.

  I'm signed out of all social media stuff and I'll sign in once a day, check

  a couple of groups, see if there's anything I can respond to,

  and then I'm done sign out immediately afterwards.

  The more you can disconnect from it, the easier it's going to be to

  maintain your focus

  when you're in your leisure time and then maintain your focus

  when you're not in your leisure time and actually working with kids.

  And I think we need to model that for kids, too.

  So saying to your class, I'm leaving my phone off

  until lunch time when I need to check it or whatever it is we have to be over.

  True about that, not coach, about that. Mm hmm.

  Let's face it, being online and social media is a two headed dragon.

  Right?

  On one side, it can provide support and knowledge and resources,

  and the other side, it can make you feel inadequate for less than perfect.

  We're not always a supportive of each other as we could be.

  Mm hmm. I think that that's.

  That's another piece.

  Like we said before, it can be you can help them.

  Those who are isolated and we can give support to each other.

  But I think you're right about being able to put up

  say, I just don't do this 24 hours a day.

  But I think that's on top.

  Parents that,

  you know, parents have think their kids are there 100% of their world.

  Right.

  So they should have access to teachers all the time.

  And that is not a realistic expectation and administrators as well.

  So I think that that's a whole new topic that I don't I don't see widely discussed.

  And it's brought on the back of technology.

  So I think that we should be paying attention to it

  and for context for people who are listening.

  My comment is this is coming from somebody who taught for a decade,

  seven days a week.

  So I would teach elementary school in the mornings and afternoons at night.

  I would teach drumline on the weekends, Saturday and Sunday,

  I would teach private lessons or drum lines.

  So I very rarely disconnected.

  And I've learned over this time that it's okay to set these boundaries

  and it's okay to have that.

  That points of disconnection and just do something for yourself.

  Well, I'd go beyond that and say it's more than just, okay, it's preferable.

  Yeah, it's necessary.

  Cannot be 100% for everybody everywhere, all the time.

  And that's one of the reasons why we see this growth

  in schools, banning technology that kids have in their pockets

  is because they're not present in the learning in a classroom.

  But we haven't modeled any of those boundaries and behaviors.

  And so it's not surprising that that's the way it is.

  It is the nature of the design of the technology, the mobile technology,

  to keep you engaged with it as much as possible.

  Mm hmm.

  So we have to we have to acknowledge that and and make decisions.

  Now, remember, I'm old school.

  I've been around a long time.

  We used to worry about bookworms.

  Wouldn't engage because they're always had their head in a book.

  And now wouldn't that be awesome?

  We think that would be a really great thing.

  But I just the little

  but I do think that if we model uses collaborative,

  cooperative uses of technologies and if we model, say, okay,

  take out your phone and let's figure out this math problem,

  use your calculator on your phone or whatever in high school.

  Now let's put it away.

  We're going to talk about this or we're going to do this other thing.

  We're not going to use them so we can start to model those boundaries.

  I don't think that in the early learning that everything needs to be done

  technologically.

  I think there are times when when crayons and paints and

  mud and tricycles are better choices.

  But we need to make sense of that and we need to label it as such.

  All right.

  Next up is episode 13, and this is the interview with Sara Judd.

  So there is a certain extent where I could say, of course, you think about the kids

  and you care about the kids and that makes it all worth it.

  But I feel like this means that we weaponize the kids.

  And when you're feeling burnout out and someone says, well,

  I mean, we're doing it for the kids.

  What you hear is, Oh, shoot, I do not love my kids enough.

  Lower burnout.

  I mean, there is some about that.

  Certainly there were like I kept letters that my kids sent me with

  thank you's on them or particular projects that I was proud of the kids for doing.

  And I would look at them when I needed reminders of why I was doing this thing.

  Also, I think it is super important that everyone remember

  about teachers that we are also human beings in tech.

  There is this idea that you should have a GitHub

  that is full of all the programing you also do in your free time.

  And we also have this idea

  that that is toxic and we should require that as a people.

  I think our people need to realize that like teachers also

  need to live their human lives and that that's okay.

  I read an article once

  during one of the teacher strikes, which was someone saying, It turns out

  students don't actually perform better if their teachers have better salaries.

  And my thoughts on the matter were.

  But are the teachers happier?

  Because it turns out we too are human beings and maybe better.

  Self is not just about student performance.

  That is in part about teachers living reasonable lives, right?

  Yeah. And I think those are really good points.

  I have a what I call a happy file on my filing cabinet.

  That's like the cards that kids use to make and like things like that

  that I'll I'll just go back and look through.

  I have one where it's like the card.

  It's actually in the photos.

  It's an on my CV page from my website.

  Like underneath it

  there's this card that this kid made that

  like the words says, You are the funniest teacher ever.

  And then it's a stick figure person with like,

  just a flat smile, like, just like a straight line across

  that pretty much summarizes me

  like, kids think I'm funny, but I look like I'm not.

  I hope you enjoyed that response by Sara Judd.

  All right.

  So the next section is from episode 15, and it's a short

  response by Diane O'Grady kind of, well, it's a hand.

  Take things in small steps.

  That's definitely one of the pieces.

  But that connecting with peers and collaborating on on things that work

  well is about the best thing that kept me going.

  All right.

  So in episode 17, Dave Ricchetti actually flipped this question

  and asked me what I'm doing to stay productive.

  How do you have time for that?

  And what what are you spending your time on these days?

  So I'm a bit OCD when it comes to my scheduling,

  and that came out of necessity in that like I had too many plates

  spinning and was not being productive and was quite overwhelmed

  because I was like working full time, working on a dissertation and yada yada.

  Yeah.

  So I don't know if he's heard of getting things done.

  The method. Yes.

  So David Allen's book and he's got like a podcast and stuff, I followed that.

  But then I also just listen

  to a bunch of podcasts on productivity and I just like keep applying

  those little pieces that I learned here and there into what I'm doing

  and try and be as effective as possible.

  So like as an example, I do the Pomodoro method in that I'll work

  for like I was just going to mention that.

  Yeah, I'll do 50 minutes of work and then I'll do 10 minutes where I'll go

  play drumset downstairs or like walk on my treadmill

  while like reading a book or something, and then I'll come back and do another

  And then I, like I meditate in the morning, meditate mid-way

  through the afternoon, and then I work out in the evening

  and then I've been trying really hard to make sure

  that my evening and week in times are my evening and we can times.

  And that's coming from

  somebody who used to work seven days a week, like ten plus hours a day.

  I've realized that I need those breaks.

  Although I've changed some of my practices,

  many of those I would still recommend.

  Okay, so the next section is a response by a clerk.

  MERKLEY And this is from episode 19.

  Well, I guess to two things is even that even if I'm traveling a lot,

  I try and be very careful about what I eat and you know what I drink

  very often, you know, as I'm traveling to different places,

  I'll make a local stop to the grocery store,

  which is always healthier than trying to, you know,

  get something fast and cheap at a fast food place.

  So there's that.

  And then the other thing and this is a really small thing,

  I have my favorite pillow that I take with me

  because I'm often sleeping in, you know, Airbnbs and hotels

  and just being able to get a good night's sleep makes it makes a big difference.

  And as far as the burnout goes

  right now, I mean, it's so exciting, so many really cool things are happening

  in computer science education, especially at the elementary level.

  You know, finding the motivation

  and finding the the drive to keep going is not hard at all.

  I mean, there may come a time when it's just so overwhelming that

  I just say I wish I could call myself.

  The dean

  of that is you know, we have such great team members at boot up

  and, you know, we're hiring for other other positions right now.

  And the applicants that we're getting are just, you know, great people

  who have a passion for making a difference in the world.

  And that, you know, as a nonprofit, we can be very mission driven.

  And the mission is, is to get kids coding.

  And we do that by empowering their teachers.

  And that's

  and then when you get to see the fruits of that, I mean, the evidence

  of that in the teachers that we work with and the students that they work with,

  you know, the gratification is built right in.

  So that that part's that part's easy.

  And one thing that I'll add, having had many conversations with Clark

  is also following a lot of the methods that were mentioned

  in the interview with Dave Ricchetti.

  So there's a lot of podcasts in books that are recommended in the show notes

  for that one,

  like Getting Things Done, which I know has been a huge impact on both Clark

  and I in terms of trying to make it so we can get through

  the actions that we have for the day without getting burned out,

  doing too many things at once.

  Yeah, well, I think the the beauty of some of those tools is,

  is not only just creating a magnificent to do list,

  but but it's all about doing what gets you

  the best return on your investment of energy and time and and passion.

  Right.

  And you know that's always a that's always a mix between,

  you know, some things just have to get done.

  And, you know,

  they may not be the things that you need the most, but they just have to happen.

  I mean, people have to get paid benefits. You have to be administered.

  You know, those kinds of things have to happen with precision.

  But at the same time, if

  I can focus my time, energies

  and skills are doing something that has high value and high return,

  that's really the, you know, the beauty of getting things done

  and getting things done elegantly is, you know,

  that's kind of the essence of what we do.

  Okay.

  So the next section is the interview

  with Justin Kennedy, and this is from episode 23,

  and Justin actually mentioned

  something called a circular calendar, which I had never heard of before.

  So check this one out.

  Oh, my gosh.

  That I saw that question and I was like, Oh,

  I don't have a good answer for that, but I've been trying to do better.

  One thing that I do is I time block really well know

  my scheduling, and I've started trying to take that over to my personal life.

  And so like I said, I'm a grad student right now, and so I will time.

  BLOCK In my my nights, especially like when I have

  I have my kids, I, I time block for them.

  So you know, I pick them up from school and then they go to bed at eight.

  And so that is chunked off of my personal calendars, you know,

  that's what I'm doing.

  And then maybe from 8 to 10 all time block off squawk.

  But then I never really thought about applying that to personal life before.

  I think I talked to someone

  a month or two months ago and that's what they were doing.

  I was like, okay, this is nice because what I've realized

  and you can probably sympathize with me on this is if I don't have it written down,

  it stays in my head and it creates this anxiety, panic, you know, like, Oh yeah.

  And so if I can write it down, if I can time, block it off,

  even 30 minutes on my calendar to send an email that I know

  I have to send, it makes me allows me to to not have to worry about it.

  And so I say setting up those practices there

  and then as hard as this is, like just disconnecting from work.

  And so like, I'll purposely leave my phone in another room at times,

  like when I have the girls or other times just so I'm not checking work emails,

  so I'm not trying to respond to something or have my mind cluttered.

  And I think

  another thing and this could be age,

  so just getting older, but like saying no, sometimes

  like I feel like early in my career I was, yes, I'll do it.

  Oh yeah, of course. I want to jump in here. I want to help.

  And even though it's well intentioned, all of us only have so much energy.

  And so, you know, by saying yes to everything,

  you're really diluting everything.

  And so it's finding those places in which I feel like I can make the most impact

  and saying yes to that and reserving those yeses for that time

  and knowing that, you know, everybody's human and and we all have to have

  time to disconnect.

  I do want to know your response to that question.

  So I'm always looking for other ways. Oh,

  yeah,

  that could be unpack there.

  I definitely agree with like finding time to disconnect.

  It's been difficult for me for the last couple of months

  because I have been working on weekends and working later into the evenings

  because there's just so many projects going on.

  So learning to say no to some of those projects would have probably been helpful.

  When I initially got counseling like well over a decade ago,

  one of the things that she recommended

  was like planning out your day in like ten minute chunks and making

  that flexible and knowing like, well, things are going to are changing.

  And so I had to force in, okay, I'm going to work out from this time

  to this time and like nothing is going to get in the way of that ideally.

  So that has been a big thing for me.

  Also, the getting things done idea of just like writing it down

  and putting it into your action.

  And finally, here's

  when I'm going to address that thing so I don't have to keep thinking about that.

  It definitely helps with the anxiety.

  I, I also wonder, I saw a tool pop up at some point,

  but it was a circular calendar and I'm interested in

  how that can can help because I sometimes I lose long

  term sight for short term, like you said, with all projects that pop up.

  And I wonder if looking at a circular calendar

  and having like that blocked off in a way of, okay, I can,

  you know,

  push this project out to this point because that seems like a more empty space

  on this calendar

  than keeping it, you know, everything just within the month, the next month.

  And so I don't know, that's just an idea

  because you elaborate on like visually, what does a circular calendar look like?

  I have like multiple things going in my brain.

  I will I'll send you a link to this too.

  But it's from what it looked like it was blocked and chunks of like

  so there's the circle, like inner circle was chunked and I feel like seasons.

  So like the quarters of the year and then the, the outer chunk was like in months.

  And so there wasn't a lot of detail provided.

  It was really it looked like it was color coded in a way of like, okay,

  you know, this happens on this month every single, you know,

  whatever it is, every single month.

  And or maybe like I know

  I'm going to be traveling at these points and so I can put that on there just as a

  I feel like what it was trying to do is give like a holistic view of your year.

  And for us, type A anxiety ridden people like it.

  It almost provides more space to say, Oh, okay, like I have a year, like, well,

  none of us are guaranteed time, but like, hopefully we have a year of like

  this is the progression of life and maybe everything doesn't

  have to be done within the next week.

  Yeah, yeah. Like down.

  And next up we have from episode 25 the response by Kim Wilkins.

  I'm not the best at it, to be honest.

  I definitely when I was I mean, I was a workaholic.

  That was, I think one of the things that I came to

  realize was not a value of mine, but it took me a long time to realize

  that it wasn't just all about the job because I also took my value

  from just the job and nothing else in my life.

  So I think that's one way is if you're just getting all your value

  from what you're doing your job, then you're probably not

  having a very good balance in your life.

  The other thing I do now, I'm involved in just so many different things.

  I'm so passionate,

  especially about computer science and equity, that that gets me sucked

  into a lot of different activities, which I enjoy, but it can be overwhelming.

  So I always come back to, you know, what are the top three things

  that I want to be involved in?

  And if I feel like I'm juggling too much or getting overwhelmed,

  then I have to go back and I got to get something out.

  I got to refocus.

  Yeah, I think it's Tim Ferriss.

  He said something like, If it's not a yes, then it's a hell no.

  And yeah, like, that's how he identifies what kind of things he's going to work on.

  And for somebody like myself, it can be very difficult to say no to things

  because there are so many opportunities that I want to help with,

  but because there's so many opportunities, I can't help with all of them.

  And I'm sure we'll likely experience the same thing.

  Going into the doctoral program is there's like always more things

  you can add to your CV and at some point you just have to start

  saying no to certain things so you can focus on others.

  Now, I guess for me, like I'm not really focused on the CV stuff now, that's good.

  I am now in a point in my life where I'm doing things because I want to

  enjoy it and I want to make a difference, but I don't really care,

  you know,

  if it's going to give me that next big promotion or give me that next big job.

  So it's really

  I'm glad to be at this part of my life where I don't have to worry about that

  kind of stuff.

  I have to admit, though, that's sort of how I've lived my life anyway.

  So I think that having that mentality and not worrying so much about what

  is going to get you to the next thing, but doing the thing

  that you need to do can be helpful and sometimes easier said than done.

  Yeah, for sure.

  Yeah.

  No, I totally agree with you on that.

  And from episode 27, here is the response by Andrea.

  Stephanie.

  Now just a quick note that this particular response addresses

  some of the pressures involved with higher education,

  but if you're in a K-12 setting, you can also think of

  what are some of the pressures that are on you

  and how could you potentially try and alleviate some of those pressures?

  Oh, that's a good question.

  I don't know if anybody's ever asking that before.

  You're right, It is challenging is academia.

  You know, there's always these phrases like publish your parish and they're true.

  You know, if you don't publish, you don't get to keep your job

  at least until you get tenure.

  And then there's weirdly, there's a lot of protection.

  But, you know, for me, I would actually say

  I had a better balance after I got tenure than before.

  And that's probably pretty typical.

  But, you know, in my own case, I am careful about my health.

  Number one, I exercise regularly.

  I watch my calories and try to keep myself physically fit.

  So that's important to me.

  And I don't have direct evidence that that helps, but I feel like it helps me.

  That's one thing.

  But then number two, I also feel like academics should,

  especially once they have tenure, when you're still trying to keep your job,

  you kind of don't have as much choice because you're trying to prove yourself.

  But once you do, I also feel like academics

  should take a step back and realize that

  a lot of the academic metrics that universities use are stupid.

  Like, for example, if you wrote an academic paper

  and you said, I think we should hire and fire academics

  based purely on the number of papers that they publish,

  you would get a rejection letter because that's stupid.

  But in tenured promotion

  guidelines, that's how often what we actually do in practice,

  I think there's a lot of universities that don't even read the papers,

  but they're actually mixed put in.

  They just say, Well, you published six in this time.

  Good job. You get to keep your job.

  It just makes absolutely no sense is totally ludicrous

  and so I think part of my own sanity

  is I've come to the conclusion that some of it I'm just going to ignore

  and I will publish enough that the admins will keep off my back

  and stuff like that.

  And I like to publish anyway.

  So I guess there's that advantage.

  But like I'm also going to spend a lot of time doing what I love and to me

  that's programing and so I spend a lot of my days

  like thinking of how am I going to hack together

  this thing to make three 3D work for a blanket?

  My colleagues are supportive,

  but if they didn't like it, I would just I'm fine with that.

  Then give me a bad evaluation.

  Fortunately, I'm lucky in that we've gotten awards and, you know,

  all sorts of stuff and, you know, people are sort of okay.

  But at the same time, like, you know, some of it too, is you have to kind of

  be willing to speak out a little and remind your colleagues

  that, like some of these academic metrics are really not evidence based.

  They're just kind of like,

  you know, we chose paper accounts because the admins can count them

  easily in academia.

  It's funny, they always talk about teaching research and service, right?

  And it's funny with research, we have these absurd metrics for teaching.

  We often use teaching evaluations and might are very high, but there's lots

  of issues with them having gender bias that I mean, they're just not really good.

  And then service like we don't take any metrics.

  And so therefore somehow

  people just ignore service and like it's just not taken seriously.

  And like, it is really weird that we evaluate academia this way

  and it should probably change if we want to keep our own sanity.

  As one academic, I only have so much control on such things

  anyway, so for me it's like

  health stuff and then kind of ignoring some of the flow of a little bit.

  And from episode 29, here is Jackie caught Shelley's response.

  I got into this computer science thing when my daughter was three years old.

  She's now 11, and I would say that she's my muse.

  She's she's the reason why I still firmly believe

  our students should be able to take computer science.

  In my mind, I want her to have an experience

  that was different and better than my experience was with computer science.

  And and that's already, to some extent happening to her.

  But I have this strong feeling that that the work is just never done.

  And so I guess that that's where the flame comes from.

  As far as the balance, I think it's really important every day

  for you to schedule a little sanity time for yourself as best as you can.

  And I think physical activity can make a huge difference in your mental

  well-being and your mental state.

  I really try to exercise three, four or five times a week, if I can.

  That makes a huge difference for me and I try to take time to do

  the things that really motivate me and make me happy, like spending time

  with my family and friends doing crafts, even if that means I can't do the work

  that needs to get done for next week or even for tomorrow.

  It's okay. That work is not going anywhere.

  I think we've got to take

  time for ourselves or like you said, we will burn out.

  I've also, you know,

  if it's not required for tomorrow, then it's it's optional as best as I can.

  However, I do do this thing called touch paper once.

  So if I see an email or if I see a paper if I can accomplish, I really try to see

  it, do it, address it and move on, as opposed to hemming and hawing.

  You know, as best as I can, you can't always do that.

  But you know,

  like if it's a big report or a big grant, you have to revisit again and again.

  But if it's something that I can read process once

  that saves time versus reading and processing again

  and again, every time you read an email, you have to take more time to process it.

  Again, those are just a couple of tips, but,

  you know, exercise, I think is one of the most important things

  in time with people that you love,

  time with your family, your friends can really make a difference.

  Yeah, especially in these times. Yeah,

  it is a really good suggestions.

  And I also follow a lot of this, especially

  the idea of just like touching the paper once It's it's very helpful.

  So you're not just constantly going back to the same thing

  over and over and wasting your mental energy on it.

  And here is the response by

  and gone from episode 31.

  I mean, that's my whole career is, is even though

  I'm doing it in teaching now, you know, there are two things about me.

  I've always worked in a field that was changing out from under me

  and programmers don't usually burn out because they get tired of doing

  what they've done.

  Programmers as professionals quit the profession, I believe primarily

  because what they knew two years ago isn't worth much now,

  and they have to go through that whole learning experience over and over again.

  I like to learn.

  In fact, it's probably the only thing I'm actually good at.

  I've never been super topic obsessed or I'm a good writer

  or I think an editor, but otherwise I don't have a

  super skill in one area.

  I've never been.

  I'm not a real conventional programmer in the sense of, you know, just like

  diving deep into one particular technology I like to learn.

  And so the field of programing, of coding, of technology has always worked for me

  because I don't have to do anything for too long.

  I can just always be starting over again.

  And I think teaching is like that.

  You have to suck up and deal with the fact

  that you're always refining, you're always creating,

  you're always having to add something new, but it also keeps things interesting.

  I'm one of those people who puts a lot of stress on myself, so I'm always stressed.

  My solution to that is to try really hard to find

  one day a week that I actually take off

  and to either get outside or to make something or do something.

  So, you know, digging in the garden, teaching myself

  slowly, slowly how to sew, making something beautiful

  is is a

  is just a fix for many ills in, you know, once or twice a year

  we go on vacation and we completely unplug.

  You know, I'll be out in a place that not only has no cell connection,

  it has no electricity, it has nothing for me.

  I think that's really, really critical is to just get totally away.

  And usually, you know, in the outdoor stuff, do something that's kind of scary

  because there's something

  about being scared that really makes you focus on the moment

  instead of thinking about, like, what you have to do when you get back.

  Yeah, I think essentially hitting

  the five to refresh is a valuable thing to do throughout the year.

  Yeah. Yeah.

  It's hard though, especially when you have a lot of deadlines and yeah, it is hard.

  But I've also changed career.

  I mean, I've been in the same field,

  but I've also completely changed careers twice now.

  That gives it a certain freshness.

  Yeah, Yeah, that's true.

  Now, you may have noticed my voice sounded off on that one.

  I actually ended up getting a sinus infection right after that recording.

  All right, So here's episode three and Mic Perkins response.

  I try to personalize my work projects

  so that they are fun for me to accomplish.

  And for some reason I don't know why.

  In the education realm, the word fun is almost like the F word.

  Yeah, avoid it.

  I have never understood that.

  Like I said, if I could at the beginning, if there's a way for me,

  especially with kids who like are masters or PhDs in fun,

  if I can figure out a way to not tell them, hey, stop daydreaming and say,

  How can I take this learning and make it fun

  and inserted in the things that they're already wanting to do?

  I think that's awesome.

  And so I try to do that with myself.

  I was down in Garfield School District in Utah and the students were working

  on the animated card and the teacher was saying, like, they're making animations,

  but there's no rhyme or reason for why their characters are moving.

  Can you help them with that?

  So I taught a little lesson that did try to do both things,

  give rhyme or reason to why they're animating the card instead of

  just having characters move for whatever reason.

  But the way I did that was said, Hey, look,

  I want to take this animated card and apply it to what I'm interested in.

  So I wrote down a list of the things

  that I'm interested in, which of course included Star Wars.

  And then I came up with an idea for an animated card

  that was a birthday card involving Star Wars characters.

  And as I was sharing this idea that it was for the students, but

  as I was thinking about it, I was like, This sounds actually really fun.

  And so I've been building that project myself

  and taking the animated card lesson.

  That's the Buddhist lesson and making it my own and that has really helped me

  de-stress is just having fun with the things that I'm doing.

  Another thing that I do is because I'm traveling a lot,

  I sometimes work long hours late into the evening while

  I'm traveling so that when I come home, I've got time to be with my family.

  And so a little bit of that balancing of work life

  and home life helps me to de-stress a little bit

  and take care of myself and make sure I don't burn out.

  Yeah, that makes sense.

  I mean, it's like batching.

  It's making it so, okay, I know I'm going to be gone.

  I'm going to be away from family.

  How about I get as much done as I can now?

  So that way when I return to family, I can just focus on that again.

  Yeah, and it's been nice working with that because I can have that flexibility.

  Yeah, for context, we all kind of work remotely

  and we kind of are able to set our own hours

  and days and whatnot to just as long as we get our stuff done.

  Cool.

  And from episode 35, here's

  a response from Brenda Bass, who is another coworker at Boot up.

  I've never been very good at this one.

  I tend to be a workaholic.

  My mind goes nonstop at the things to try to have things to code.

  I'm just now learning how to in my day

  and try not to check work e-mail until the next morning.

  That's not always the case, but I track.

  I usually try to go for a walk before beginning work, or I usually know that

  that's not going to happen.

  I always have good intentions, but I think, Oh,

  if I could just work a little bit longer I had than since I've been home

  eating lunch outside in the back yard as the weather permits,

  you know, for a nice break, Setting timers working like 50 minutes

  and taking a ten minute break is helpful.

  I'm not always great at doing that, but I try.

  I am getting better

  about making sure I eat lunch before I'd be like 3:00 and it's like I'm hungry.

  Oh wait, I haven't had lunch, so I am getting better about doing that.

  Yeah, that's all very relatable to me.

  Yeah.

  I have to remind myself to stop working.

  I'm telling you, you should really try the answer and respond

  to emails only twice a day and just taking it off the phone.

  It has helped me out a lot.

  I have started closing the tab with my email

  so it doesn't just pop up, but I do get it on my watch.

  I do get it on my phone that I need to just take that off too.

  Yeah, just just try a week for yourself

  episode 37.

  Had two different guests on it.

  So you're going to hear response from Peter Rich and from Stacy Mason

  studying interesting things helps.

  What I did for my first several years of being a professor,

  I kind of felt like I had a point where I knew what every study on that subject

  was going to say.

  It didn't seem novel to me anymore.

  I thought it was all relevant.

  Basically, the study said, Yeah, absolutely do this.

  It was kind of like saying, Now we know that exercise is good, right?

  So do it right now.

  I know you can really go into depth on that a lot more and really study

  the different types of exercise for me right now.

  What's keeping everything is the fact that I find coding and computational thinking

  super interesting in such a new area, especially in terms of the younger grades.

  But I think there's so much for us to learn.

  And so my problem right now is more about what to focus on

  then how do I keep going?

  I've got too many things out there just looking at my schedule just today, right?

  I've got like five different topics that I'm working on, different

  research teams with today. That's probably a bad thing.

  How do you narrow that down, though?

  How do you like

  focus on what you're going to say no to and what you're going to say yes to?

  There is a lot. Yeah.

  In this case, Peter does not say no.

  I say no,

  I am selective.

  I set boundaries.

  I'm pretty sure Peter does not say no.

  They say now that I've learned to say no to some things, not enough things.

  So that's part of the problem, especially when it comes to this,

  because it's stuff that I love.

  So yeah, part of it is learning how to say no and learning how to say maybe later

  to prioritize and say, Right now I can do this, but

  can't do seven things at once and do them well.

  But I can do,

  you know, I can do two things and do them well and get seven things done faster.

  If I take them two at a time, then if I write ten, ten, seven at a time.

  So yeah, so I'm probably not the best asking that as this is my

  and I'm not the best to ask

  because I am just beginning my professional career.

  But you know, I think a lot of students burn out of grad school as well.

  One of the keys is to set boundaries, to be selective about the projects.

  You say yes. To think.

  Another way to avoid burnout, though, is to work with people

  that you enjoy working with, not just the subjects you enjoy,

  but the people you enjoy, and that you can motivate each other

  to get things done, especially if you are meeting regularly

  that regular meeting that we had was motivation

  to get something done by the time we're meeting each week.

  And here's a response from episode 39 with Laurie Mrs.

  Geeky Green.

  To prevent the burnout, I would develop my own little cohort of teachers

  not formally, but find that group that you can lean on a little bit.

  Yeah, and it was.

  I tell kids when I'm teaching, you have a shoulder buddy.

  Have that group of friends that you can ask questions to colleagues

  going have coffee with every other week or even if it's one month

  and exchange ideas and vent

  with the challenges, especially those first few years of teaching

  are very difficult and I can see why the burnout happens.

  But I think if you have a little cohort of friends

  that you make a point to get together with, learn from and try

  different things and get support for each other, that will help.

  You know, the other thing

  I would do, Jared, is I would recommend to those new teachers is to join

  if only one one organization you start getting their magazines

  or their research journals and so forth and get immersed.

  If it's the engineering society as it's the SD,

  if you're state has an organization you can join.

  Most states have a tech, Ohio has a ATC, join it and get involved with it

  and CSK, it's starting to get chapters in most states,

  so you'll have some local as well as the national one as well.

  I think that would be helpful.

  And in episode 41,

  we now have a response from Shuki Grover.

  Everybody in US education is just so busy all the time.

  They just everybody is.

  I think we will all look back on this and hopefully with cheer and a smile

  rather than, you know, grimace and remorse.

  It can be very taxing.

  I mean, not your hobbies.

  I love to do crochet and knitting and gardening.

  Those are very Zen kind of activities for me.

  And somehow over the recent years, I've actually picked it up a little more

  and it may be my body and crying for,

  you know, a break away from social media and see us at work and,

  you know, the writing and reading and it's 24 seven, you know,

  unless you consciously switch off, there is no switching off.

  So there's that.

  Having, you know, things to do outside of this, I think is is very nurturing.

  I also feel like in my own experience the way I have it wasn't that terribly

  conscious, but I think I have sought out new collaboration.

  And with every new collaboration, you are learning different things.

  You're working with different people, you are expanding your horizons

  and perspective and learning about, you know, the same topic

  but different aspects related to see US education.

  And I find that that has been very enriching for me

  is collaborating with with teachers more and more.

  I have done that more and more.

  I'm doing that more and more co-design so that the classroom, you know,

  making sure that teachers have a seat at the table at all times when we are

  even when we are doing research, but just all kinds of collaborations,

  you know, with different folks

  from different universities, I think that that helps you.

  You're not in a you don't feel like it in the New ideas,

  give you a new life and new energy and new enthusiasm.

  Yeah, it's interesting how,

  like collaborations can simultaneously help prevent

  the burnout, but also kind of iterate on your own understandings and like

  teaching new things that you hadn't necessarily considered before.

  Absolutely.

  I think you hit the nail on the head because you, you know,

  these ideas are not, you know, just perspectives

  help you iterate on your own learnings and abilities.

  And as an educator you read others research, you collaborate all of that.

  So in episode 43, if you haven't listened to that interview with Joyce McCall,

  this one was a little bit different of a question.

  So I was asking how, as somebody who researches very heavy things

  in terms of institutional racism and things like that,

  how is it that you are able to stave off that burnout?

  So Joyce answers in response to that.

  One of the things I've been doing is surround myself with folks

  who do this work, but who also

  who negotiate similar obstacles daily

  so that I can ask questions like how is it that you are able to do this?

  And surprisingly, I'm still able to smile,

  you know what I'm saying?

  Like,

  and especially now, every day, every day is something.

  Every day it's this black person over here was home or,

  you know, this person was shot and killed 16 shots in the back,

  or you got, you know,

  a university who is hidden away

  has protected this particular professor who is a racist and yada, yada, yada.

  But That's one reason why I truly

  am so honored

  to know somebody like Adrian Dixon, because she

  and purposefully makes it so that scholars

  like myself can be supported by folks like her,

  like she'll have weekend writing workshops, and she'll invite me over

  or like she's inviting me to do projects with her.

  And it's just nice because I can ask questions and say, How do you do this?

  How did I do that?

  You're able to crack jokes.

  I mean, I still you know, I'm not trying to say that

  no one should do this work, but it is tough and it's hard to really do

  the self care thing or to even share what it's like with your colleague.

  I'm the only black person in my department and one of five

  in the School of Music here.

  If you haven't listened to that episode with Joyce, I highly recommend it.

  All right.

  So the next episode is episode 45, and this is a response

  from Martin Urbach I don't prevent it.

  Someday them burnt out

  and some days again, like go through the power of relationships.

  I am not just one person.

  I think like whiteness thrives in the culture of like isolation

  or like I'm one person.

  I'm the only person fighting for this.

  Like, I'm part of like coalitions of like hundreds of people doing this work.

  I remind myself that I don't have to finish the work

  and that I'm not here to solve racism or solve education.

  But also I can't abandon it right? Yeah.

  I feel energized by going to a protest and like playing my bucket drums

  and trying to find like I'm trying to like gamify,

  like I have like three buckets that are together in like I'm

  drilling holes in it and like attaching a cowbell to it, figuring out like,

  how to best wear it so that it doesn't like bruise my legs.

  So that to me is actually like healing.

  But I'll feel, you know, I'm going to the beach a lot.

  I like, you know, I am a pre-social person like before

  COVID, you know, like, I like go on dates with people.

  I like focus on my friendships.

  I love cooking, I love eating like bougie sushi and like

  I love, love, love, overpriced,

  expensive, silly, like nitro

  cold brew coffee served with like,

  you know, Kyoto, cold brew, 18 hour style.

  Like, those things are kind of silly,

  but it like, I love sitting at a coffee shop

  and like, drinking a coffee, but it's like, I cannot do this myself.

  And like, like that is really dope for me.

  I, like, unplug my unplug from, like the world by watching like Matty Matheson,

  like cooking videos in which he's like, you know, this dude who's like, huge dude.

  They're fully tattooed Canadian.

  He makes delicious food, but he's also, like, super crass and like,

  you know, and it's like, dope.

  It's like, it's fun.

  You know? I'm like, making beats.

  I recently began exploring Ableton, like, I never had the time before.

  And so some days, I mean, I'm in therapy, you know, I do therapy every week.

  Some days I am pretty burnt out. Yeah.

  And some days I don't do the work.

  And then others,

  I'm like, I'm going to go through, like after talking to you, I'm going to, like,

  talk to somebody else and I'm going to take the subway

  for 18 minutes and go to the beach and hang out and like eat fruit.

  I have destructive ways of like, you know, like I eat a pint of ice cream, right?

  Which like sometimes I'm like, yeah, I'm not burnt out anymore, but

  I'm also just eat like 1200 calories milk, fat and sugar.

  So I have to catch myself like, ooh, like, that's not a good coping mechanism.

  But I guess the main thing to me has always been like relationships.

  Yeah, that's a good point.

  You know, like this idea of self-care like,

  is really good, but actually community care is best.

  You know?

  I like, I have a really small and great group of friends and that really helped.

  I have really close relationships with students and sometimes students like

  will text me or email me or call me or if we're in the same room,

  they'll be like, Martin, you got to like, you're not looking good.

  Like, oh, they'll like literally bring me

  my water bottle and be like, I'm not leaving until you drank your water.

  I teach high school students.

  I do restorative justice work.

  So we have a group called Circle Keepers, but also I do like music with students,

  like the musicians

  in my afterschool clubs and my RJ kids have my cell phone number, right?

  And so it's very, very common for me to get a text at like four in the morning

  because teens are up all night being like, make sure you then

  the whole pint of ice cream.

  But they know because we have

  the kinds of relationships that we we know one another.

  Right?

  Like Paulo Freddy talks a lot about like

  we cannot teach without revealing who we are.

  Yeah.

  So I know what my student's triggers are,

  and they know, like, what my coping mechanisms are.

  And so, yeah, and also just sometimes it's okay to be burnt out.

  Yeah, no, it's a good point.

  At one of the reasons

  why I ask this question of guests is just because I want other educators

  to know that this is a very real thing and that their feelings are valid

  and there are potential ways to like work through it and whatnot.

  You're in your teaching, your classroom and you're burnt out

  and you have to be there

  because whatever, you can't take a sick day

  or a mental health day for whatever reason.

  Like what's the harm in sitting there

  and just telling your students like, Yo, y'all, I'm having a pretty terrible day?

  Like, I'm not with it, I'm burnt out.

  Well, you all think we can do.

  Can you take the day to, like, review?

  Can we do something fun?

  Can y'all, like, be extra kind and loving?

  And can you, like, can we do this stupid or.

  Sorry, I'm trying not to use that word,

  you know, like, can we just get through this?

  Because if I don't teach this 20 minute lesson, I'm going to get fired

  or written up.

  Y'all give me like, throw me a bone.

  Let's get through this

  And then you guys have 40 minutes or you folks have 40 minutes

  to just like study hall.

  And any time that I've done that, youth have been like, Oh, man,

  how can we help you?

  You know?

  And it's created a beautiful, like sensible inner ability.

  And again, it's better the relationship.

  And last but not least from episode

  also known as Cody McPherson.

  You know, for me personally, I think a big part of that is just within

  within my mission, within my field, just always for like a new opportunity,

  like a really good way to get me to do something is to say like, Hey,

  do you want to do this thing no one's ever done before?

  And so like in my career, like I started with teaching just regular math classes.

  And then after a couple of years of the opportunity

  to teach like intervention math classes

  and after a couple of years had the opportunity to teach

  like English language learners

  and refugee math classes, which was a whole other amazing thing.

  And then after a couple of years, I started teaching computer science,

  and after a couple of years I started like expanding the program

  or throughout that time expanding the program.

  So I was always able to like jump to the next thing.

  And I think that's how I survived, because if I had continued to teach

  the same class over and over again, I would have gotten bored.

  Okay. Yeah. And like, that's tough.

  I mean, the students are new every day and I love that Every day feels different.

  Like no matter what, every class is different.

  Every student is different.

  Like that.

  Unpredictability is very exciting of being in the classroom,

  but you feel like you lose out on problems to solve.

  You know, it's like, how do I teach this one

  concept in a way that students get it in?

  Like after a couple of years, it's like,

  Oh, yeah, I can just like, rely on these lessons.

  Like I started to feel it with like my AP Computer Science

  Principles course after taught teaching if like the fourth year, you know,

  I could just glance at the lesson plans and be just like, Oh yeah, that's right.

  Here is how I do this thing.

  And so I wasn't always, like, motivated to learn to like, adjust that.

  But I do think, as I was saying, like as my focus shifted into things like

  identity and culture, response to pedagogy like that would have motivated me

  to go back and like stay in the field to do a better job that way.

  But I got the regret I have right now that I can't, like, retool

  some of those lessons to just be better at like honoring students.

  But if you never are forced to confront those things

  and make those adjustments, like if you never move above that,

  like hierarchy of what you're focused on, like if you spend your entire

  teaching career just focused on classroom management,

  yeah, you get burnt out, you never evolve and then you never have a reason to like,

  you know, puzzle and puzzle yourself in how do you create the best lesson

  that there is?

  Yeah, that's a good point.

  When so when I was in the classroom and coding classes

  in the makerspace, like every week, I'd be exploring something new.

  Every day there was something new and I'd be sharing like,

  Hey, here's this new project that I worked on this past week.

  What are you going to work on this week?

  But when it came to music

  classes, the district that I was in for general music, in particular,

  the lessons were mandated.

  If one of the five administrators that I had walked in, in spot checked

  and I wasn't teaching the specific lesson on the specific day

  I get like slap on the wrist or written up for it and so like

  that, I would have gotten burnt out on very quick.

  And I did.

  But when it came to computer science, like it was refreshing

  because like every day it could be this new thing.

  But what about like outside of that?

  Like because that can be overwhelming in terms of it never ends.

  Like how do you take a break from that or do you not?

  So the other piece that kind of kept me going and kept me again

  is this idea of like this isn't always very appealing to like some teachers,

  but teaching in a different context than just the classroom.

  So things like running a Girls Who code club

  or doing like a two or three week summer camp, like academic summer camp

  environment where you're like teaching things

  that you hopefully like, you know, to students who want to be there

  and like you get again because it's not in the classroom, it's more fun.

  Like you can you get to build those relationships

  with students, You get to focus on the things you want to like.

  Something that I was doing and would still do to like avoid

  burnout is teach in contexts outside of a classroom.

  And I think that's very refreshing.

  Like if you're in teaching because you love teaching

  and you love working with students and things like that,

  those contexts help remind you of those things.

  I think that's super important.

  I also think like in the world of just like, you know,

  all these computer science, like folks who've just gotten into computer science

  and they're teaching some courses and they want to get better at computer

  science themselves,

  or they want to get better at teaching computer science like they spending

  at least one summer, just like teaching in these programs.

  Folks will pay you to do this, which is pretty good.

  That's like the best professional development

  I think you can do is just having this opportunity

  to teach in different ways

  to different students in different contexts

  and see how that feels and see how you grow from that I think is really powerful.

  All right.

  So that concludes the responses from this. Prior year.

  If you enjoyed this particular type of episode, just let me know

  and maybe I can create some more that are kind of similar.

  For example, next year during suicide prevention month, maybe we can create

  another episode with the upcoming guests who responded to this particular question.

  Now, I'd like to kind of add on to this with what I've been doing

  lately to help with mental, physical health and whatnot.

  So a typical day for me is I wake up at 6:00, I then feed

  dogs, get ready, and I start my morning workout.

  And the reason why I do my workout is because I like to start my day off

  with getting my heart rate going

  and making it

  so that when I start my workout in the morning,

  it makes it so that if I'm tired at the end of the day, I've already done

  something to improve my physical health right at the very beginning.

  So next when I finish my workout, I actually review some of the

  like things that I have written down over time during my reflection practices

  each evening of like, here's something that has helped me,

  whether it be like a quote or a poem or a particular phrase,

  I kind of reminds me of the importance of what I'm doing

  and why I'm doing what I'm doing.

  And so these little words of advice or sayings are helpful in terms of

  clarifying my mental focus and the things that I'm trying to do in my life.

  Once I actually start working, I engage in the Pomodoro

  method that I mentioned in the interview with Dave Ricchetti.

  So that's 50 minutes of work for me and then 10 minutes of a break

  on the ten minute breaks.

  I have in the past done a lot of music making or I'll go and play on the drum set

  or I will walk and read on the treadmill or simply listen

  to podcasts and just kind of like do some random chores around the house

  or play with the dogs or just spend time outside, whatever,

  as I'm going

  throughout the day when I'm working on something,

  I try and break things down into smaller actions.

  So like,

  what is the next thing that I need to do in order to get this project moving?

  And I have a app that I use called Nosy and OCD

  that allows me to kind of keep track of like recurring things.

  And I need to do like, Hey, on Sundays, take out the trash or Hey, on

  the last Friday of every month, make sure you submit your expense

  report, things like that.

  The reason why is

  because I don't want to have this stuff kind of take up my mental bandwidth.

  So I don't want to have to think about it. In addition throughout the day.

  I will often be using my treadmill desk where I will be working on stuff

  so that way I can be up and moving and not just sitting throughout the day.

  This has helped me a lot and I highly recommend

  now at the end of the workday, I will then kind of look at my schedule

  of the things that I have coming in the following day or the following week.

  And I will create a schedule for here's what I'm going to work on next time.

  So when I finish the day, I'm done for the day

  because I have already planned out what I'm going to do.

  So therefore I no longer need to think about,

  Oh, what am I going to do tomorrow or next week when I resume working?

  After that, I will do some kind of cardio such as Mai Tai,

  a rowing machine, or go running or something similar to

  just to kind of like do something physical,

  to basically reset my brain and to say, okay,

  I'm done working for the day and now I'm going to relax.

  So after do that cardio, I will then go and meditate.

  And previously I would meditate for like 20 minutes.

  But lately I've been trying to do an hour just to see if that improves

  my overall mental, physical health and whatnot.

  From that point on, I try and make

  the rest of my evening downtime, so I will cook dinner,

  I will hang out with my wife, I will play video games with some friends,

  anything to kind of make it so that I am not engaged in working.

  At the end of the day,

  I like to do a reflection wall, kind of think back of

  what are some of the things that I'm grateful for?

  What are the things that I've learned and what can I do to continue

  to improve myself and my overall state of being?

  And then I will practice some Japanese and then read a book

  before I fall asleep at a consistent time, which is at the latest 10:00.

  That way I can get my 8 hours when I wake up by six.

  So that's a typical day for.

  And the reason why it is so regimented

  is because going back to the episode that released last week where I mentioned

  being suicidal and having depression for a couple of decades,

  these are the strategies

  that I use to kind of keep myself going and to stay on track.

  I should also say that the physical exercise

  is a big part of things, but also dietary as well.

  So like I am vegan and I actually have two thirds of my meals

  as raw meals throughout the day that I actually drink in smoothie form.

  And the reason why I've settled on that method

  for two thirds of my meals is because this is one of the many methods

  that I have used to actually get off antidepressants

  by just focusing more on my physical and mental health.

  So it works for me and that's why I do it.

  But it's not for everyone.

  So I don't know if that is helpful or not, but that's just kind of what I do.

  And on the weekends I really try and disconnect and not work.

  And I'm actually no longer responding to emails on the weekends

  or checking social media and whatnot because I want to make it.

  So when I come back on Monday that I'm fresh, I'm ready and I am going

  to devote all my energy into creating some awesome resources for Buddha.

  I hope you enjoyed this week's episode with the supercut

  and I hope you listen to all of last week's episode.

  That was a very hard recording for me to do,

  but it is an extremely important topic.

  Just reminder in the show notes, you can learn more about preventing suicide

  by going to the National Suicide Prevention website,

  and I hope you stay tuned next week, which is going to start in unpacking

  scholarship little mini series on policy for years Book Pedagogy of the Oppressed.

  So I hope you are able to use some of these strategies

  to stay mentally, physically healthy during these trying times.

  And I hope you are having a wonderful week.

  Thank you for listening.

Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode

• Listen to the full episodes of each excerpt

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  • 13 AI4ALL, Curriculum Development, and Gender Discourse with Sarah Judd

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  • 17 A Conversation with Professional Programmer and Educator, Dave Briccetti

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  • 19 Advice for School Administrators Interested in CSforALL with Clark Merkley

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  • 23 Project-based Learning in Computer Science with Justin Cannady

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  • 25 Promoting Equity and Activism in Computer Science Education with Kim Wilkens

    • In this interview with Kim Wilkens, we discuss embracing failure, encouraging activism and community impact through CS and technology, supporting marginalized gender identities in CS, and much more.

  • 27 Accessible CS Education through Evidence-based Programming Languages with Andreas Stefik

    • In this interview with Andreas Stefik, we discuss the importance of using evidence-based programming languages, problems with the lack of replication in CS education scholarship and academia in general, the importance of designing for accessibility and disabilities, lessons learned designing Quorum (an accessible programming language and platform), and much more.

  • 29 Advice for Novice and Expert CS Educators with Jackie Corricelli

    • In this interview with Jackie Corricelli, we discuss advice for novice and veteran CS educators, the potential for collaboration between industry and educators, designing for more inclusive CS education, volunteering for CS education organizations, and much more.

  • 31 Integration through Data Analysis and Implications of CS as a Skill with Anne Gunn

    • In this interview with Anne Gunn, we discuss Anne’s background as both a CS professional and educator, thoughts on data analysis for classroom integration (e.g., sonification), implications of understanding CS as a skill rather than a topic, our experience helping develop the Wyoming Computer Science Standards, and other topics relevant to #CSK8 educators.

  • 33 Lessons Learned from CS Professional Development with McKay Perkins

    • In this interview with McKay Perkins, we discuss what McKay has learned over the years providing elementary CS/coding professional development, considerations for creating within constraints, teaching a sustainable way for integrating CS/coding in elementary schools, the importance of adapting PD to continuous feedback, advice for becoming a professional development facilitator, and much more.

  • 35 Robotics and Physical Computing with Brenda Bass

    • In this interview with Brenda Bass, we discuss advice for educators interested in getting started with robotics or physical computing, considering equity and access with robots and physical computing devices, how to learn more about robotics and CS without a background in either area, and much more.

  • 37 Lessons Learned Researching Computational Thinking with Stacie Mason and Peter Rich

    • In this interview with Stacie Mason and Peter Rich, we discuss recommendations for introducing and integrating computational thinking in the classroom, the importance of contextualizing computational thinking within coding practices, peer and family influence on learning to code and to think computationally, lessons learned by researching coding and computational thinking, our perspectives on whether computer science and coding should be a mandatory subject, and much more.

  • 39 Integrating CS and Technology with Laurie “Mrs. Geeky” Green

    • In this interview with Laurie “Mrs. Geeky” Green, we discuss advice for novice and veteran computer science educators who are integrating CS and technology in a variety of subject areas, what an engaging integration experience looks like, the importance of finding platforms and approaches that work for you and the kids you work with, helping administrators and educators understand what computer science is (and how it’s different than computational thinking), suggestions for integrating in online and virtual spaces, and much more.

  • 41 Discussing Computer Science in K-12 with Shuchi Grover

    • In this interview with Shuchi Grover, we discuss the importance of having a variety of assessments in a CS class, why we need more research on computational thinking, why educators and scholars should read literature outside of the field, Shuchi’s new book titled “Computer Science in K-12: An A-To-Z Handbook on Teaching Programming,” and much more.

  • 43 The Shire as Metaphor for Systemic Racism with Joyce McCall

    • In this interview with Joyce McCall, we unpack and problematize some of the issues around race and racism in relation to education. In particular, we discuss the importance of allies not only showing up to support marginalized or oppressed groups, but staying when conversations get uncomfortable; the Shire from the Lord of the Rings as a metaphor for hegemony and systemic racism; as well as a variety of theories such as critical race theory, double consciousness, cultural capital; and much more.

  • 45 Education for Liberation with Martin Urbach

    • In this interview with Martin Urbach, we discuss the importance of intentionality in education, exploring the social/political/historical contexts that can be explored in an educational experience, student choice and agency in the design of a space or experience, how to fight oppressive systems in education from the inside, committing to continuing to learn and grow on a daily basis, and much more.

  • 47 From Mathy McMatherson to Codey McCoderson: An interview with Dan Schneider

    • In this interview with Dan Schneider, we discuss how Dan transitioned from math education to CS education, designing spaces for educational experiences, suggestions for expanding and diversifying CS programs, how pedagogical approaches evolve over time through experimentation and reflection, the importance of listening to and working with kids one-on-one, and much more.

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