Discussing Computer Science in K-12 with Shuchi Grover

In this interview with Shuchi Grover, we discuss the importance of having a variety of assessments in a CS class, why we need more research on computational thinking, why educators and scholars should read literature outside of the field, Shuchi’s new book titled “Computer Science in K-12: An A-To-Z Handbook on Teaching Programming,” and much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast my name is Jared O'Leary in

    this week's episode I'm interviewing

    chuchi Grover in this episode we

    discussed the importance of having a

    variety of assessments in a computer

    science class why we need more research

    on computational thinking why educators

    and scholars should real it urge her

    outside of the field and what people can

    learn by reading shoe cheese a new book

    titled computer science in k-12 an A to

    Z handbook on teaching programming as

    always the show notes includes some

    extra resources related to this episode

    for example some of the papers that

    Shuchi recommends reading so you can

    access those show notes by visiting

    jared O'Leary comm or by simply clicking

    the link inside the show notes for the

    app that you're listening to this on I

    hope you enjoy this wonderful interview

    with Shuchi which will now begin with an

    introduction so I identify primarily as

    a researcher a learning sciences and

    computer science education researcher I

    have occasionally taught in a classroom

    but it's mostly been as part of research

    projects I've actually taught more

    teachers maybe than students directly as

    part of teacher PD and that I have been

    doing for a long time even before I came

    into si s education working with

    teachers as part of technology

    integration and such I've actually also

    taught a class at Stanford on how to

    teach introductory CSN programming and

    that course was aimed primarily at EA's

    of undergrad courses and students from

    the ed school at Stanford my journey

    into CS ed research I guess was not very

    straightforward I started my

    professional life as a software engineer

    I had a bachelor's and master's in

    computer science my bachelor's was in

    India but that I came to the u.s. for my

    masters after some years of doing that

    and an entrepreneurial venture during

    those calm years in the 90s I decided to

    go into education and so I sort of moved

    from CS into education was sort of when

    I think back on why that might have

    happened I think it may have had to do

    with my master's thesis at Case Western

    in 1992 which is pretty interesting the

    object-oriented programming languages

    had just come out the cd-rom had just

    come out for those of you youngsters

    that are listening so we were creating

    applications with this language called

    small

    the students of music and this I want to

    mention because of your background

    students of music and art because there

    was a lot of digitization going on in

    libraries at that time and of music and

    art and this was called the library

    collection services project as it

    happened and they had partnered with IBM

    and the computer science department at

    Case Western and we were creating these

    applications that would be used by

    students you know in classrooms for

    students of music so one app for example

    was where the music would play on the

    cd-rom I remember we had we were working

    with the Brandenburg Concertos and stuff

    like that and there would be a score

    sheet on the screen and there would be a

    moving highlight to show what score was

    playing in at that time and so that was

    like a pretty cool project for that time

    and it was a huge thrill to see see as

    being applied in the context of

    Education and then around 2000 I decided

    to go into education and did a masters

    at Harvard in the technology innovation

    and education program and I think that

    was what set me on this path of children

    and coding was this volunteer work that

    I did at MIT Media Lab MIT Resnick and

    Natalie Rusk at the Media Lab and others

    had a grant with museums around the

    country called the playful invention and

    exploration network with museums and the

    children were engaging in tangible and

    physical computing widths the Media Lab

    cricket which was basically the

    microprocessor that went on to be the

    brain in the Lego Mindstorms kits and so

    the idea was to basically have students

    use the Cricut to actually create fun

    things along with craft materials even

    back then I think there was this belief

    that the early Mindstorms was already

    out by then was very robotic

    it was robotic but it was very male

    centric with the wheels and I mean you

    can only think of building cars or

    moving things like that roving things

    but you couldn't think of pretty flowers

    no or bugs and things like that so I had

    volunteered for those workshops and that

    sort of you know stayed with me I went

    on to work informally in schools with

    children in after school

    settings actually and I was an EdTech

    consultant for teachers and working with

    teachers and classrooms but with

    students I had these after-school

    robotics and digital storytelling clubs

    that I had created and these were all

    centered around children learning to

    program and that's when I started

    experimenting with the pedagogy of

    teaching programming to kids because of

    my background in CS I would see those

    sessions as ways to teach some of these

    ideas that we now call computational

    thinking you know I used to write blog

    posts at that time and you know once in

    awhile an article for ISTE and whatnot

    and I would talk about these very ideas

    that we now see as computational

    thinking so I had started to engage with

    this idea quite passionately and so

    that's how then I came into my PhD and

    the research topic was I guess a very

    organic journey from my work as a

    practitioner and then wanting to

    understand how we can you know enrich

    students robotics and other programming

    experiences by also teaching some

    foundational ideas of computing and

    computational thinking and so you know

    my PhD dissertation was in the learning

    sciences but it was situated in the

    context of computer science education

    for middle school I designed a

    curriculum it was a great learning

    experience because I looked at this

    topic from so many sides whether it was

    curriculum design pedagogy assessment

    perceptions motivation all of that sort

    of became part of that experience since

    then I've been involved in several NSF

    project another grant funding bodies as

    well that look at pedagogy is for

    teaching CEA's computational thinking

    curriculum design assessment integration

    of stem and computing but my principal

    affiliation is with a small R&D venture

    in the Bay Area and in California it's

    an NSF funded R&D venture I'm a

    principal research scientist there it's

    called Looking Glass Ventures and I'm

    also a visiting scholar still at

    Stanford so that's a long-winded

    introduction yeah I really liked your

    point about your dissertation in

    particular far too often I see a lot of

    researchers they have this like

    microscope view of Education and so they

    hone in so closely on one

    a clear thing that they ignore or forget

    everything else that goes into education

    so I think it's important to kind of

    zoom out and think of so many different

    factors that go into kids learning can

    you tell me a story about an experience

    either in education or in your research

    that continues to impact you today so

    this was a piece of my research during

    my dissertation it was around the idea

    of helping students build perceptions of

    computing basically it had to do with

    opening student's eyes to what computer

    science is to what computing could mean

    there was this research on expansive

    framing with someone called Randy angle

    at Berkeley was doing and had she had

    just passed away around that time and

    you know it was a huge loss to the

    learning sciences community because she

    was looking at transfer and how when you

    look at a social view of transfer rather

    than a cognitive view the idea was that

    if you help students see broader

    connections to what they're learning

    beyond the classroom and a future use of

    that learning then the brain is somehow

    primed to actually learn better and and

    you transfer better you sort of learn

    those ideas better and so the whole idea

    was to expensively frame this curriculum

    by giving students a broader sense of

    what computing means by making real

    world connections so I brought in this

    idea of using videos from YouTube and

    also speaks to identities so I was

    thinking at that time and I'll be honest

    at that time I was thinking gender for

    the most part you know let me have

    videos that show girls and different

    industries craft music healthcare and

    also you know sort of a mix showing a

    lot of different ideas but I also

    actually recorded vignettes of computing

    with people around me there was a muslim

    girl who used to wear a hijab at

    stanford i interviewed her a black

    cohort mate who was doing these

    interesting things with computing so i

    did think of representation a lot at the

    time because of this idea of you know

    helping students sort of see their

    future selves and it also sort of was a

    proxy for sort of bringing role models

    into the classroom so it sort of played

    a lot of different roles i feel like we

    need to consciously make the real world

    connection

    much better we need to attend to issues

    within the curriculum itself and not

    sort of separate from it so ideas that

    they're learning in the classroom about

    simulations about something we could do

    so many things to sort of make the

    connections but also tie it to identity

    and you know this idea of expansive

    framing so that is one idea that has

    impact and I feel that it has a huge

    role to play when we talk right now

    about social justice and culturally

    relevant pedagogy I think we need to be

    showing examples of all kinds of work

    done by all kinds of people around us

    not just you know the popular examples

    of Mark Zuckerberg and Facebook and

    things like that so what's something

    that has surprised you over the years

    with your research on computer science

    and computational thinking during my

    dissertation in middle school classrooms

    in the Bay Area I had designed all kinds

    of assessments you know formative

    assessment quizzes open-ended and

    closed-ended programming projects

    multiple-choice quizzes for formative

    learning parsons problems in scratch I

    think I might have been the first one to

    try those out you know mixing up scratch

    blocks on the stage and giving to

    students reflective notes on their final

    projects I even did artifact based

    interviews at that time I had a couple

    of students in my second iteration of

    the study students in class who the

    teacher had sort of labeled as problem

    kids you know to me and she said you

    know they are you know students who are

    behind in several subjects and they have

    learning difficulties and they've just

    been put into this elective classroom

    because there's nowhere else to to place

    them was the way she had said you know

    that they hadn't elected to be here

    they'd been placed here they happened to

    be students of color and they were often

    not on task they were off task a lot of

    the times and they didn't do so great

    they were behind in their submissions of

    the projects that you know kids had to

    complete they didn't do so great in the

    quizzes and in the pre post you know one

    of the great things about my research

    was every student showed free to post

    gains

    but these students sort of did poorly in

    the post test even though they did

    better than the pretest when it came to

    the final open-ended project these two

    kids were partnered with each other and

    I was a bit apprehensive I felt maybe

    they should partner with somebody else

    they BEM they might learn they will sort

    of learn through working with someone

    else who's sort of done better in the

    class so to speak and you know my

    interviews with both these students

    really blew my mind and it really

    changed my view on assessment not only

    were their final project pretty good it

    extended the Mays project that we'd

    already done in class but in such

    interesting ways and they created levels

    and they'd created this scary scream at

    the end because it was Halloween and

    they had just watched this movie they

    told me in the interview and the

    interviews were conducted individually

    with each student and they showed me the

    bug that they had and the fact that they

    couldn't fix it and through talking with

    me they actually figured out each of

    them individually managed to figure out

    what the bug was and actually they were

    explaining concepts to me you know that

    I had taught them in in ways that I

    could not see through the pre to post

    assessment right in the pre post test

    and so this really brought home to me

    the idea that certain assessments

    privileged some children more than

    others and there are many things that

    you can learn from quizzes and get quick

    feedback but you also have to sort of

    give students opportunities and ways to

    show their learning that they can do

    better

    privileged their own voice a little more

    and they're learning and show it in ways

    that you know may not come through in

    other forms of assessment so this idea

    that you know you in order to get a

    holistic view of a child's learning you

    have to sort of have this wide variety

    and the formative assessments and

    quizzes also played a part for example I

    think I've even written a paper about

    this about how the dashboard on the day

    of the web the day I introduced

    variables I mean suddenly the formative

    quizzes performance plummeted for the

    aggregate very few students did well on

    certain problems and those I realized

    those problems revealed misconceptions I

    went back and sort of Marie

    did some tried to change how I was

    teaching something so you know the role

    of formative assessment quizzes that

    give you quick feedback on things kids

    may not have learned is valuable but

    reflections are valuable you've talked

    about it set of assessments those are

    valuable artifact based interviews are

    valuable and so are open-ended projects

    but we have to sort of understand what

    role each plays and how you can

    incorporate you can't just give projects

    because it's very hard to grade it's

    time-consuming you know students take

    time to do them and you take time to

    create them and so when are they getting

    that feedback I even saw that kids did

    things in groups where you know

    sometimes one kid couldn't explain what

    a certain part of the code was doing

    because my friend did that I didn't I

    don't know it so it also reveals that

    the presence of a construct or a

    presence of certain parts of the code

    may not indicate understanding so one of

    the problems that I have with like

    automated assessment stuff and like only

    using that is sometimes you have happy

    accidents in code where it's like oh

    this works I don't know why it works but

    it works and cool so when it gets like

    automatically graded it's like oh they

    understand conditionals or variables in

    a psyche well maybe not so I like the

    multi-perspective approach that you're

    recommending and for people who aren't

    familiar with it so the formative stuff

    like in the process assessment and kind

    of understanding and the summative is

    typically towards the end sometimes with

    the pretest and then EPS ative is more

    of like a reflection on what do you know

    now what did you learn through this

    project how does that compare to your

    prior understandings so like those like

    different approaches to assessment I

    totally agree with what would you

    recommend for educators in terms of when

    either selecting or designing their own

    assessment that they would use with the

    kids they're working with I feel for the

    way that we are proceeding in CS

    I think the summative assessment is of

    course great but it's great for

    reflection on the curriculum reflection

    on what might change from cohort cohort

    because it has

    opens too late in the process for you to

    sort of hurry to impact learning for

    that cohort of students so it's great as

    a reflective tool but for your ongoing

    teaching and your ongoing district

    curriculum and teacher PD etc and you

    see things in the aggregate in the

    summative assessment for the most part

    you sort of see almost students you know

    were able to get a handle on this kind

    of topic or concept but not so much on

    this so how might I teach this better

    for formative assessment I think that is

    just it's a mindset you have to sort of

    constantly tell yourself I need feedback

    from students on what they are learning

    and this can be done in so many

    different ways it can be informal

    questions as you are having a whole

    class discussion it can be that

    expressions as they you know when you

    ask something and yeah blank faces but I

    think most teachers this is not

    something new to teachers teachers have

    been doing this all the time so

    formative assessment can be more

    informal like I said the expressions

    what students are responding what to

    when you ask them a question as they're

    coding and whatnot and it can be a

    little more formal to in the form of

    exit tickets on a daily basis or every

    other day a couple of review and and

    those exit tickets you can review the

    next morning if they're quick to sort of

    give you feedback you can ask a couple

    of quick questions they could be

    multiple choice they could be you know

    short open-ended something that you can

    sort of look at and get a sense for very

    quickly and then review the next day

    because you want to be able to tailor

    your learning formative assessments give

    students a sense for what the learning

    goals are and that is important even in

    project-based learning you know it's

    easy for students to not know what it is

    that I'm trying to learn at the end of

    this and giving those formative

    assessments sort of give them a sense ah

    this is what I'm supposed to be

    understanding and learning and no I

    haven't got this so I want to I need to

    understand this better so that I can

    answer this kind of question or whatever

    it's also normative right assessment is

    a normative Enterprise you measure what

    you treasure as they say

    to your value and so if you value you

    also value creativity you also value

    collaboration you value these what we

    might call socio-emotional or you know

    how is this connecting to your interest

    so you want to be probing all of that

    because when you probe students with

    those kinds of questions they understand

    what it is that they need to be learning

    whether it's communication whether it's

    the vocabulary whether it's

    collaboration whether it's the actual

    concepts of programming whether it's

    it's about you know their interests

    being valued you know so I I think all

    of that comes through not just the

    learning goals but through measurement

    as well yeah I love that the idea of

    you're basically measuring what you

    value but I'm curious how do you help

    educators kind of understand what

    they're communicating as what they value

    unintentionally and like thinking

    through oh whoa I only value like the

    concepts like the computer science

    concepts like conditionals and variables

    etc etc and yet I'm not putting a value

    on creativity and problem-solving and

    like other ways of being that I actually

    do value but I'm not actually assessing

    so how do you get teachers to understand

    that what they're measuring kind of

    displays what they're valuing in the

    classroom I mean I think good examples

    play a big role I think having rubrics

    for the projects that not just talk

    about oh you have to use a conditional

    and you have to use a loop but you know

    assigning or apportioning value to use

    of media effects self-created media how

    have you been creative what have you

    done to sort of give students you know

    even in closed ended projects this can

    happen and and that is something that I

    you know have tried all along even when

    you are targeting certain goals in the

    projects that you have given them it's a

    closed-ended project make this you know

    make this fried do this but if you give

    you always make room for the students to

    bring something of their own into it

    there be it you know the kind of sprite

    they use be it

    take that you can you can say make

    something but you know connect it to

    something that is in your community or

    whatever you can find ways you have to

    push yourself and I think it comes back

    to your learning goals and what the

    teachers are you know sort of outlining

    as learning goals our learning goals and

    I think the CS framework and other

    things have done a good job of trying to

    say that CS is not just about learning

    the concepts it is about building

    mindsets it's about I mean the whole CS

    for all idea also is about you know

    broadening participation in computing

    which means we have to attend to

    interests and race and community and

    gender and what interests different kids

    and you know student choice in the

    projects of course is always a great way

    to sort of make sure you bring the

    students voice in and make the idea

    relevant make the learning relevant to

    them but you can't do open choice

    projects all the time and so when it

    comes closed-ended project you make sure

    that you bring in those elements in your

    rubric and there has to be something on

    collaboration for example what did how

    did you help your partner how did your

    partner help you a simple question like

    that is sending a signal to them I'm

    supposed to be working with my partner

    and I'm supposed to be doing well so I

    think keeping all those goals of CS sort

    of on your mind at all times but also

    realizing and this again goes back to

    why you know teaching is it's difficult

    you can't capture everything in every

    assessment and that's one of the things

    that I speak about in the systems of

    assessment idea some assessments help

    you with understanding the conceptual

    stuff when they're doing a quiz on the

    concept so they know that they you know

    there's no creativity there per se

    there's no if they're doing it alone

    it's there's no collaboration per se but

    they're you're for grounding the idea

    that concepts are important but then

    there is other kinds of assessment that

    are valuing those other things and so

    you know taken as a whole the students

    leave with an experience that all these

    things are important I think it's

    important to understand you can't get at

    everything in every

    kind of assessment and different forms

    of assessment are good for different

    things it's an evolution I mean teachers

    who have come in to CS in recent years

    obviously had more pressing issues of

    how do I deliver this curriculum in the

    classroom but now it feels like it is

    time to make assessment conversations

    more central and more a part of the

    learning process you know to make

    assessment how to make assessment a part

    of the learning process not to grade not

    to you know sort of use it for you know

    high stakes and accountability but

    really as a means to convey to students

    what the curriculum is about what you're

    valuing but also getting ongoing

    feedback on how you're doing on all the

    learning goals then it's a multi-faceted

    learning goal for CS for sure so what

    about the CS educators who are really

    into like puzzle based forms of learning

    so the assessment is basically the

    puzzle itself is a quiz there's one

    right or wrong way to answer it and

    there's like no opportunities for

    creativity within that how would you get

    them or how would you speak with to them

    about expanding beyond that to include

    multiple forms of not only expression

    but assessment so again I think

    presenting this whole palette of

    assessments caring what various

    assessments can look like and sort of

    bring home the point that the puzzle

    based and the quiz based assessment it

    satisfies one goal it's one kind of

    assessment but you're losing out through

    that assessment and what you're gaining

    through that assessment is perhaps this

    is a feedback you're getting from that

    but you're not getting feedback or

    you're not valuing you know these are

    the things that you value in this

    curriculum so you have to sort of mix it

    up today you give give a puzzle based

    assessment make sure that you know at

    the end of two days kids are doing some

    form of a project and giving you

    feedback through another form and there

    you could be you know making sure that

    they're able to convey you know they're

    able to bring the creativity and

    collaboration to the table and other

    things and so I think giving a sense for

    the palette and the plethora of forms of

    assessment and what each one gives to

    you and to make sure that it's not a

    monocultural diet you can't just be

    eating corn all day you've got to mix it

    up because each things you know it's a

    multi-faceted goal and a multi-faceted

    learning process and therefore a

    multi-faceted set of assessments if

    somebody was an elevator with you and

    they're like hey I heard you really new

    book what is it what would your elevator

    pitch be for the book if you are a

    teacher or a curriculum designer who

    plans to teach or is teaching coding or

    computer science as part of TS or a

    technology subject or another discipline

    is subject coding can play a role in

    several contexts you cannot do without

    this book it gives you a sense for not

    just a sense but an understanding of all

    foundational ideas of introductory

    programming for k-12 so that includes

    key concepts he practices and key

    pedagogy and the book has been created

    by galaxy of people who have been deeply

    committed to k12 si s education in

    elementary middle and high school it

    brings together researchers who have

    researched this topic or who are well

    aware of the research and so it brings

    together classroom practice and learning

    from you know research in the learning

    sciences and see I said it's really

    unique in that sense of course the A to

    Z organization is unique each chapter

    starts with a letter of the alphabet I

    had to be creative when it came to X Y Z

    yeah it sort of sets you up with that

    foundation so it's not a curriculum you

    know this is where you start and this is

    where you end a lot of curricular PD

    training do do go through something like

    that but what you leave out through

    those short training periods are some of

    these foundational ideas what is this

    idea how are you supposed to what is the

    learning there that a child is supposed

    to come away with how might you get

    there with examples so there's examples

    from blog face and text based

    programming languages

    there's in fact there's one chapter on

    integration and I've gone beyond the

    elevator pitch okay so the elevator

    pitch is that first sentence now

    describing the book to you it also

    includes examples of integration of

    music by the idea of the work you've

    done with assessments also are featured

    so we've tried to capture the state of

    the art where we are at with our

    understanding of teaching of CSS and

    programming and so I think it's pretty

    unique book in that sense because it

    brings both concepts and pedagogy it's

    not focused on one language or one

    curriculum it's about the broader

    fundamental ideas so a teacher who has

    not had a background in computing this

    book is essential what are some of the

    main ideas that you hope CS educators

    learn when reading through the different

    chapters at a very basic level I think

    they will come away with the

    understanding that there are

    foundational ideas of programming it

    transcends programming language and so

    very often and early understanding for

    many teachers as I'm teaching scratch

    it's a scratch curriculum I'm teaching

    how to move a block from here to here

    this block does this this block does

    this when you snap them together this

    happens it's not about teaching the

    programming language is a tool the ideas

    are more fundamental the programming

    language sort of brings that idea to

    life in different ways I mean different

    programming languages use different

    syntax but the idea is the same you know

    these foundational ideas of whether it's

    repetition or conditionals or events or

    algorithms and so these are sort of the

    conceptual ideas but then there's this

    there are some practices of computing

    which we don't normally teach

    specifically which are very crucial

    planning and writing you know planning

    your program is essential learning to

    debug your program is essential how to

    decompose and you know think about

    modularization that's an important skill

    as well and so those are practices and

    then there are all these pedagogy I mean

    there's 3035 years of research that have

    looked at how can we teach these ideas

    in

    that students will learn them well and

    so you know the learning Sciences

    brought some ideas to the table CS

    education researchers have been doing a

    bunch of research over the last thirty

    years what are the learnings from that

    you know things like learning to read

    probe reading and writing and tracing

    programs when you and how to scaffold

    the learning how you can use

    project-based learning and

    constructionist ideas and how learner

    centered and culturally relevant

    pedagogy is important that's one chapter

    that I'm really happy and glad because

    it sort of meets this moment as well

    that we are in right now and you know

    unplugged activities how do those play a

    role and there are some overarching

    umbrella chapters like a broad chapter

    on students conceptions and what where

    they trip up because we have a good

    sense and a large body of literature on

    that so there's a chapter that's

    dedicated to that there's one chapter

    that's dedicated to the learning goals

    of teaching CS and programming and

    that's a lot of what we just talked

    about in our previous segment about

    mindsets and identity and thinking

    skills it's not just about learning

    those concepts and practices but it's

    about all these other things as well and

    so how my pedagogy is or intrusive 'ti

    work and there's a chapter on

    programming languages and that again you

    know these programming languages might

    be obsolete a few years from now but

    what might be some dimensions of

    languages what might you look at so

    David mind dropping out that chapter on

    what are characteristics of languages

    that you might consider when you choose

    a programming language to teach with you

    know introductory CS and there's a

    chapter on integration of coding into

    other subjects and that again is I think

    a very valuable chapter for teachers or

    science and mathematics and social

    studies and music and language arts

    because we've got examples from all of

    those and some very rich examples from

    the field so I don't know about for you

    but every writing project that I've

    worked on whether I'm the one of the

    author's or reviewer or an editor or

    whatever I've always learned something

    from it I'm wondering what have you

    learned as a result of editing this

    handbook

    like a wide range of topics so I

    actually started this project with

    thinking that I would be writing it

    myself and I had outlined the book and

    the chapters and the idea the core idea

    of the A to Z and you know all the

    chapter headings at some point came

    about through my own thinking but also

    through conversations with others and I

    ended up making it an edited collection

    and reaching out to specific people for

    specific chapters who I felt would sort

    of better that than me at that topic you

    know and I think what I've learned is

    that you know the field is bigger than

    any one voice I think a field is

    sustained through the voices and

    perspectives of many collaboration rocks

    so I think the the book is just so much

    the better and richer for having these

    multiple voices and perspectives from

    classrooms k-12 classrooms college and

    university from research from teaching

    from the u.s. from other countries I

    think that was a big learning looking

    more broadly I'm curious what do you

    wish that more administrators and

    educators understood about CS education

    in particular I think there are several

    aspects of CS I think we just spoke

    about this idea of foundational

    learnings not just a programming

    language or something like that I think

    they have to understand teacher

    preparation better they have to

    understand measurement better

    I do hope they don't try to make this

    into some sort of a high-stakes thing

    but understand that this is a skill and

    learning that should be included in the

    k-12 curriculum but you know it's

    important that we get it right and given

    the nature of the field and computing as

    an industry I think we have to attend to

    issues of equity and diversity and

    inclusivity in ways that are meaningful

    not just a box items which means

    preparing teachers preparing all

    teachers preparing teachers of color and

    knowing how much representation matters

    to students to children to do right by

    every child I think we need to think

    better about differentiation in terms of

    making sure students who have had prior

    coding experience don't just learn

    better but every student is able to sort

    of excel and do well in this space

    I'm now connecting it to the idea of

    equity and some of these other issues

    that have been top of mind for so many

    of us in recent days you can't dump

    things down for for some students and

    let some students you know do well so

    how does the issue of rigor sort of play

    a role even as we make our curricula

    culturally relevant and culturally

    responsive we need to reach all students

    in a meaningful way I think that is

    terribly important and you know we have

    to move the needle if all that comes out

    of this whole thing is maintaining the

    status quo then we would have probably

    done more harm than good because we will

    have said that we this was supposed to

    be C s for all and look what it ended up

    being I know this wasn't a direct answer

    to your question about educators and I

    think everybody needs to embody cultural

    competence in computing that's a phrase

    and a curriculum and a philosophy I

    think in some sense nicky washington's

    paper at six he has you know been talked

    about in in social media and the sixty

    members group etc she's meant talked

    about it at the undergraduate level I

    think it has to be embodied from the

    very beginning in k-12 as well and

    cultural competence in computing has to

    play out in classrooms in teacher PD and

    the curriculum you know it has to be

    part of all of it the unique field I

    feel computer science because it has a

    very direct linkage to industry and tech

    jobs you know in ways that some of the

    other subjects don't you don't have a

    math industry that's only doing

    mathematics related things so you know

    it's an applied field

    you know computing is playing a role in

    every aspect in every

    Appling in every field and I feel we

    need to do a better job with connecting

    what comes beyond school college and

    career we need to do a better job of

    making those connections not so much

    that students go into those jobs and you

    know fulfill this whole workforce but it

    is about the learning and the motivation

    and the identity and the representation

    and we really do reach all when we say C

    is for all Y and to add one more

    category to the college and career even

    just leisure so like some of the ways

    that I've engaged with computer science

    was just for fun

    like modding a video game or things like

    that absolutely historically when we

    think about these things and again I'm

    not this is not about you per se but

    what kinds of students have had the

    luxury of having coding as a hobby right

    and it's a matter of access it's a

    matter of giving all children access to

    this yep like I said even I was in the

    informal space initially I did feel that

    bringing it into the formal space would

    be a better way of leveling the playing

    field although a lot of good work has

    been done is being done in the informal

    space as well initially in fact CS for

    k-12 students was all in the informal

    realm and you know whether it was the

    computer clubhouses or you know various

    nonprofit organizations girls who code

    black girls code they all operate a

    Technovation they operate in the

    informal space and I think they're doing

    a great job but then when you're in the

    informal space how do you reach

    everybody right and that is what made me

    sort of respect the formal learning

    space as an avenue for CS yeah one of

    our like our core principles that we

    hang on to at the nonprofit I work for

    is that we focus on the formal learning

    spaces because of the access issues like

    some kids don't have the luxury of being

    able to do after-school programs and

    whatnot so we want to be in the school

    in the classroom so we only work with

    districts who are committed to doing

    that I mean we have to really do things

    in a way that moves the needle I mean I

    remember when we would talk about the

    sea

    for all stuff you know and cs4 all

    became sort of a hashtag and a mantra

    said you know that CS for all is a civil

    rights issue but I think even I believe

    even that needs a rethink it should be a

    conditional if we believe that CS is

    indeed for all and is a civil rights

    issue then CS in k-12 has to be taught

    and addressed very differently than we

    have thus far

    yeah we have to transform the system

    yeah that's a lot of hard work if just

    bringing it into classrooms is difficult

    imagine how difficult it is to cite or

    sort of try to make the tech industry

    and colleges rethink how we teach

    computing but it has to be done so

    knowing your background and like all the

    things you've done it's very difficult

    like especially as a researcher with all

    the pressures that are put on you and

    whatnot and knowing that you are

    striving for these changes not just with

    the teachers work with but with systems

    how do you kind of prevent the burnout

    that can be inherent with the kind of

    high demands and pressures everybody in

    CS education it's just so busy all the

    time they are just everybody is I think

    we will all look back on this and

    hopefully with cheer and a smile rather

    than you know grimace and remorse it can

    be very taxing I mean not your hobbies I

    love to do crochet and knitting and

    gardening those are very Zen kind of

    activities for me and somehow with the

    recent years I've actually picked it up

    a little more and it may be my body and

    mind crying for you know a break away

    from social media and see a said work

    and it you know the writing and reading

    and it's 24/7

    you know unless you consciously switch

    off there is no switching off so there's

    that having you know things to do

    outside of this I think is is very

    nurturing I also feel like in my own

    experience the way I have it wasn't

    terribly conscious but I think I have

    sought out new collaborations and with

    every new collaboration you're learning

    different things you're working with

    different people you are expanding your

    horizons and perspectives and learning

    about you know the same topic but

    different aspects related to CS

    education and I find that that has been

    very enriching for me is collaborating

    with with teachers more and more I have

    done that more and more I'm doing that

    more and more core design so that the

    classroom you know making sure that

    teachers have a seat at the table at all

    times when we even when we are doing

    research but just all kinds of

    collaborations you know with different

    folks from different universities I

    think that that helps yeah you're not in

    it you don't feel like you're in Iraq

    the new ideas give you new life and new

    energy and new enthusiasm yeah it's

    interesting how like collaborations can

    simultaneously help prevent the burnout

    but also kind of iterate on your own

    understandings and like teaching new

    things that you hadn't necessarily

    considered before absolutely I think do

    you hit the nail on the head because you

    you know these ideas are not you know

    just perspectives help you iterate on

    your own learnings and abilities and as

    an educator you read others research you

    collaborate all of that and speaking of

    research what do you wish there is more

    research on or what do you wish more

    people had read in terms of some of your

    own research I think we haven't yet

    really sank our teeth properly into

    computational thinking yes I think it

    comes to life in integration with other

    subjects because that is one opportunity

    to sort of focus more on different

    representations and abstraction which is

    I think one of the most core ideas about

    teaching CT and it's sort of centers the

    idea of representation and abstraction

    when we are teaching it in another

    subject but I don't think we have sort

    of really crocked

    how to do this integration well how to

    prepare teachers to do it I don't think

    we can succeed in integration unless we

    have

    found ways to prepare teachers to

    integrate coding and CT and we haven't

    really done the bridging work really

    well you know this idea of transfer you

    know it's been used as a straw man egg

    argument sometimes OCT doesn't transfer

    so CT doesn't exist or CT isn't a thing

    I don't think we have studied transfer

    well at all yet I think there needs to

    be conscious and deep and specific

    studies around transfer before we can

    say that transfer doesn't happen because

    those of us that have tried it in small

    ways and different ways have found that

    it happens I think we need to sort of

    understand you know this idea of

    mediating transfer how do we mediate

    transfer how do we bridge to the new

    context in order to be able to transfer

    I mean we've learned from the learning

    Sciences the transfer doesn't just

    happen it doesn't happen for free it

    doesn't just come about you have to work

    at it in the original context you have

    to teach in a way to mediate and then in

    the new context you have to bridge to

    the old context otherwise the

    connections I mean the way the brain

    works and learning happens those

    connections are not made so and I think

    CT as a discipline is skilled in CS

    classrooms this again goes to this idea

    of not just teaching scratch or the

    mechanics of a programming language but

    to teach those deeper ideas and those

    thinking skills I think it is still a

    very valuable concept and an idea and

    that still needs some work and I feel

    happy that a lot of teachers do refer to

    systems of assessment and I've sort of

    heard about the idea and or teacher

    trainers and you know I don't think

    researchers I wish that were read and

    appreciated better the ideas of

    expansive framing and BFL the the work

    that I had done around that I think

    those are again very valuable ideas the

    pedagogy of programming some recent work

    that I've done around you know how now

    non programming activities sort of can

    be a lead-in and it's it isn't just

    unplugged it can be digital we create a

    digital vibe microworlds etc

    but all of them get at the fundamental

    ideas stripped away from the clothing

    that the programming language brings and

    I feel like students need to see those

    ideas in those contexts so that they can

    get at them more deeply if they're

    always in the context of programming

    then sometimes it's hard to separate and

    hard to help them see the deeper idea

    separate from the coding and I think

    computational thinking coding is a great

    vehicle but sometimes you can teach

    coding and not teach nect

    I think those are some of the things

    that I've still feel even though I've

    spent a fair amount of time on that I

    still think that there's a fair amount

    that needs to be done we haven't written

    the last chapter on on all of that as

    yet and we still don't know so much

    about how to teach it and there's new

    ideas every day just yesterday last

    evening last night in fact on Twitter

    Shriram wrote about data science as you

    know the way we should be introducing CS

    and how you know and he's been talking

    about connecting it to CT and I have had

    these ideas for you know I think

    representation and data structures those

    are ideas that really have not been

    thought about very deeply deeply in the

    context of CT I'd authored an article

    called helping students see Harry Potter

    and Hamlet in a new light with computer

    thinking and it was it was fundamentally

    about this idea of representation and

    data structures and how organizing

    information in a way that helps you see

    and it's a computational lens it helps

    you do computational analyses on it but

    you can do it manually - the idea can be

    presented manually but then you can take

    it of course to a whole different level

    if you do do that analysis

    computationally but the fundamental idea

    of creating a data structure like a

    graph a graph with nodes and edges to

    represent a novel or a work of writing

    to analyze it in a different way it

    years a whole different set of our

    hearts I'm really fascinated by these

    ideas of computational journalism

    using Python scripts to scrape you know

    prison data to do analyses in social

    studies it all comes down to

    representations and thinking about how

    you represent data and how you analyze

    that data then it can be done

    computationally but the fundamental idea

    of the understanding of being able to

    use these representations and

    transformations is a foundational idea

    that I don't think we have exploited

    enough video we haven't studied enough

    yeah I I think there's in the very near

    future there's gonna be a lot more

    crossover between data analysis and

    corpus linguistics approaches yeah my

    dissertation looked at like 11 million

    words of data found patterns in the

    discourse and then like analyze those

    patterns in terms of what does this mean

    for like music related practices and

    whatnot and I think more people are

    gonna start looking at like data in

    those ways from a computational thinking

    perspective and kind of like combined

    the CS side of things with the corpus

    linguistics side of things to just

    better understand larger patterns in the

    world that we can't see yeah oh that's

    so fascinating exactly that's exactly

    what it'sit's about and we talk about

    pattern recognition we talk about you

    know data representation as CT you know

    and coding is the tool you know coding

    is a tool there but the idea is deeper

    it's about analysis and pattern

    recognition and representation and then

    coding is your tool that helps you do

    that analysis yeah one of your earlier

    comments about like university

    professors and just like SES educational

    researchers like reading more and

    learning more about assessment one of

    the interesting things that I've noticed

    is there's this weird disconnect between

    higher education pedagogy and k-12

    pedagogy in the CS world but I don't see

    that in the music education world like

    there are a lot of music education

    professors who like oh well this

    pedagogical approach works really well

    in like the high school settings so I'm

    going to model it in like even some of

    the graduate courses and whatnot but in

    CS like that what's weird is like

    there's a lot of university professors

    that are like well I'm teaching

    undergrad so therefore I have to

    approach it and

    really different than I would if it was

    in the k-12 room and while on one hand

    like yeah it's different context

    different understandings etc but on the

    other hand like it doesn't need to be a

    night and day difference we don't have

    to ignore all the k-12 research just to

    only focus on the university stuff no

    that's so true that is so true in fact I

    mean there are people that have been

    fighting for active learning and yeah in

    in higher ed in CS but it is a very hard

    sell and I guess it's just again these

    mindsets and systemic you know barriers

    and you know that need to be dealt with

    it is very true I think arts education

    as well and the thing is that pedagogy

    is often studied only at the k-12 level

    for a lot of things and then they do

    stop studying it at the higher ed level

    and that is just so unfortunately well

    the fact that like active learning is

    still like a conversation to be had at

    the CS education higher education stuff

    like that is not a conversation in like

    the arts stuff is it's assumed you're

    going to do active learning and if

    you're not then people will question it

    I think there is this what some consider

    a dichotomy but it isn't it's sort of a

    spectrum of you know pedagogy and

    constructionist versus you know gaff

    folded it's not even an either/or it is

    about structuring your curriculum in a

    way that sort of uses the right pedagogy

    at the right moments and we've all sort

    of come very far from thinking that you

    know just leaving kids to learn program

    every kid will have learned and excelled

    and will have done you know got all the

    things that you want them to learn we

    know that that doesn't happen there are

    people that come from a very strong

    constructionist tradition that are

    paying attention to how to balance the

    conceptual learning how to bring in

    assessment how to bring it in different

    ways but you have to attend to it folks

    like yes-men and Debbie fields doing the

    e textiles curriculum active learning

    doesn't mean that you're not going to

    teach them anymore

    yeah that's something that I've had to

    reiterate when I talk

    music education courses at the

    university level because they were so

    bought into the idea of constructivist

    or constructionist approaches that they

    thought that like direct instruction was

    the boogeyman that you had to avoid it

    was like well no it's not a matter of

    like completely avoiding it it's it's

    just finding ways to use it when it's

    appropriate and they're not over relying

    on it absolutely of course there's a lot

    of research on what should come first

    whether you should proceed exploration

    with explanation and there's been some

    studies that have been the thing about

    learning is that there is no

    one-size-fits-all for every context but

    when you're aware of these that

    sequencing matters so maybe this time

    I'm going to try to let them explore a

    little bit maybe it's guided exploration

    and then we will talk about it and

    discuss it and I will introduce the idea

    or whatever or you can say I'm going to

    give them just a little bit of this and

    now I'm going to let them go and do deep

    dig deeper explore with this initial

    sort of understanding or whatever you

    know Dan Schwartz and John Bransford had

    this great paper called a time for

    telling and of course in their case they

    were showing how students that did more

    exploration initially guided exploration

    learned better when the explanation was

    offered than the ones that were first

    given the explanation and then told

    explore you know it's a matter of higher

    ed folks being aware of all of this

    unaware of all pedagogy says if it

    doesn't apply to them how to teach only

    applies to cater doesn't just like to

    hire this bizarre anything about it

    right and one of the other advices that

    I give or anybody going into any subject

    with an education as read outside of

    your field and so there's like this like

    silo of like oh I can only look at

    education if it's CS education research

    most like we'll know like look at

    physical education look at the arts look

    at social studies like find other ways

    that they're doing things and try and

    incorporate it and learn from it I think

    that is so important and I feel that

    that is why this is not a plug or oh you

    know Rara banner for the learning

    Sciences but you know we read as part of

    our learning Sciences training we read

    so much of the research done in learning

    in general

    but learning in general is always set in

    some context or another right paper that

    you're reading it may have been in an

    informal or a formal context it could

    have been a mathematics learning or a

    science learning you're always learning

    about something then we come in to CS ed

    research and you sort of you know have

    this multiple perspectives of different

    things that have worked in different

    contexts and you know not everything is

    applicable but you sort of are able to

    bring that I find that in CS ed research

    and perhaps this is true of you know

    folks that just stay within a discipline

    always is that you know they lack that

    broader perspective yeah yeah I agree I

    was initially when I first started going

    into CS education just afraid that like

    I would be lacking the background in the

    context and whatnot but I feel like

    because I came from such a different

    perspective unable to do kind of look at

    it from the new lens that other people

    aren't thinking of and it's sometimes an

    advantage oh absolutely I can completely

    see that it's an advantage you're

    basically bringing new perspectives and

    innovations to the fields are there any

    questions that I haven't asked that you

    want to talk about you know there is

    among some naysayers of see t-there's

    they've actually changed a narrative and

    in a way around city that I feel is very

    harmful by saying there is I don't know

    if you've heard this at poor get kids

    get City and the rich kids get coding

    and I've never really understood that I

    would argue that it's actually exactly

    the opposite you know when children are

    developing deeper conceptual and

    thinking skills that they're essentially

    developing those conceptual

    understandings that takes them beyond

    the road mechanics and syntax of coding

    etcetera you know they're learning about

    abstraction and representation that's

    like I've said it's a foundation of so

    much analytical thinking that can help

    them in so many other ways and also you

    read articles I've spoken about this at

    the ICL s in London two years ago in a

    panel about equity and CS and you know

    you read articles about coding being the

    next blue-collar skill for example or

    that AI is going to write

    of the code that's being written today

    so then what are we preparing our kids

    for if all we teach them is coding and

    not the thinking skills like I said you

    can teach CT through coding provided you

    pay attention to it and there are many

    instances where you're teaching it in a

    way that they're not getting those more

    valuable analytical thinking skills and

    so I think there is a you know it's an

    it there is an equity issue in here and

    I think the equity issue is to attend to

    the deeper thinking and problem-solving

    skills even as you teach coding so that

    tomorrow if coding is a skill that's

    being done by AI and and robots or

    whatever you are you are still

    well-positioned do the jobs that go

    beyond that I find that argument a

    little problematic and I feel that it is

    an equity issue to teach kids not just a

    programming language part of coding or

    whatever but to make sure that you teach

    those deeper ideas that they can then

    you know whether it's problem solving or

    abstraction and representation which

    helps you when you're thinking about

    mathematics when you're thinking in

    science when even when you're thinking

    in language arts and other subjects stem

    or non stem yeah whether I'm working

    with like people with music technology

    or in computer science or whatever

    anything tech related because it's

    constantly changing so fast what I try

    and encourage people to approach it is

    don't think of this as I need to learn

    this thing right now

    it's more of I need to learn how to

    learn this thing right now because a

    month from now is gonna be something new

    that you need to learn whether it's

    music related or CS related like it's

    it's those thinking processes about how

    to learn that's the important thing in

    the long run yes so where my people go

    to connect with you and the

    organizations you work with I am at Chu

    Chi Grover comm I'm on LinkedIn I am

    also on Twitter as Xiu Qi G all of that

    is actually on Xiu Qi Grover comm my

    Twitter my email I just started the

    website a couple years ago it's it

    sometimes stays dormant but I have pages

    spell and then you book there

    on the ATC huh and both which links to

    the table of contents and a look inside

    so that's a good one-stop place to go if

    you want to connect with me and with

    that that concludes this week's episode

    of the see sk8 podcast I hope you

    enjoyed this interview it was wonderful

    getting to catch up with Shuchi and

    hearing her insights on computer science

    education if you found the content in

    this episode valuable please consider

    sharing it with somebody else and stay

    tuned next week where we will do an

    unpacking scholarship episode and then

    two weeks from now which will be another

    interview thank you so much for

    listening I hope you all have a

    wonderful week and are staying safe

Guest Bio

Shuchi Grover is a senior research scientist at Looking Glass Ventures and a visiting scholar at Stanford University. Her research is focused on teaching and learning of computer science, computational thinking, and programming in schools. She has been working with children and programming since 2001, first in informal afterschool settings, and recently, in classrooms. Her current research encompasses the design of curricula and assessments for all levels of preK-12 CS education, as well as the integration of computing and coding in STEM and other subjects. She has led, and continues to lead, several large research projects (often in collaboration with universities and research organizations) with grants from the US National Science Foundation and other federal agencies. She also consults globally on projects related to K-12 CS, programming, and computational thinking education. She edited and co-authored the recently released "A to Z Handbook on Teaching Introductory Programming" for K-12 teachers.



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