Lessons Learned Researching Computational Thinking with Stacie Mason and Peter Rich

In this interview with Stacie Mason and Peter Rich, we discuss recommendations for introducing and integrating computational thinking in the classroom, the importance of contextualizing computational thinking within coding practices, peer and family influence on learning to code and to think computationally, lessons learned by researching coding and computational thinking, our perspectives on whether computer science and coding should be a mandatory subject, and much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast my name is Jared O'Leary in

    this week's episode I'm interviewing

    Stacey Mason and Peter rich Stacey and

    Peter are both former classroom

    educators who are now doing research on

    computational thinking and coding in the

    elementary space in particular so in

    this interview we discuss different

    recommendations for introducing and

    integrating computational thinking in

    the classroom as well as the importance

    of contextualizing computational

    thinking within coding practices here in

    family influence on learning to code and

    to think computationally lessons learned

    by researching coding and computational

    thinking our perspectives on whether

    computer science and coding should be a

    mandatory subject which my answer might

    surprise some of you and many other

    topics relevant to computer science

    educators in education as always you can

    finally shown us by clicking the link in

    the description in the app that you're

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    there no ads no affiliate links nothing

    like that just free content feel free to

    share with anyone who might be

    interested in that content and with that

    being said we're going to now have

    Stacey and Peter introduce themselves

    I'm Stacey Mason I recently completed a

    PhD in instructional psychology &

    Technology from Brigham Young University

    and part of that I did research on

    elementary teachers and students

    attitudes and beliefs about coding and

    computational thinking and I'm Peter

    rich I'm a professor of instructional

    psychology and technology at Brigham

    Young University and for the past dozen

    years I've taught courses on

    instructional design and development and

    I have for probably about the past 10

    years researched how to teach kids and

    their teachers to code can you tell me

    the story of how you got into computer

    science education for me it kind of

    started when I first started my own

    learning how to code which was

    fortuitously the minor of my minor my

    major for my undergraduate degree was

    Spanish and I was very interested in

    computer assisted language learning and

    we had to have a minor in Spanish and

    the minor I chose was called computers

    and humanities and as part of those you

    had to have an emphasis choose a certain

    emphasis

    than computer in the humanities I chose

    the more computer focused emphasis and

    that's where I took my first to

    programming classes and when I started

    to program using a simple script

    language at the time it was called run

    time revolution it opened up a whole new

    world for me I realized there was so

    many different things that I could do

    that I hadn't done before and I was able

    to start creating and I think that for

    me is what just opened it up I started

    making different websites I started

    making program I wrote a grant at

    Brigham Young University for

    undergraduates they have a program for

    undergraduate students to write small

    grants I actually wrote a grant and

    created a simple language learning

    program and that's kind of what got me

    into it I got to work at that for about

    a year kind of turned it into my job did

    some programming for it for the Provo

    School District and BYU at the time and

    then I did a PhD at the University of

    Georgia and I did some coding there in

    my first year but I realized I wasn't

    gonna be able to do a lot of the

    research I wanted to if I focused too

    much time on developing and so I put it

    aside for a few years but when I was

    finishing my doctoral degree and

    focusing on writing up my research which

    was on helping teachers improve their

    practice through the use of video

    annotation tools I returned to this idea

    of coding and I was listening to people

    complain about jobs getting shipped

    overseas and they weren't complaining

    about low-level jobs they were

    complaining about engineering and coding

    and I realized at that time that first

    of all I was odd that we would complain

    about it in the US and it's not part of

    our standard education at all

    so of course they were getting shipped

    overseas and then I realized the

    experience that I had had learning to

    code was transformative for me it helped

    me think about math in new ways it

    helped me go back and think about

    language actually in new ways and I

    realized it was something that I wanted

    my kids to have the opportunity to do as

    they were growing up so I kind of

    returned to it well I was finishing my

    dissertation and then in my first couple

    of years as a professor I would teach

    after-school clubs on robotics things

    that could be hands

    that helps kids young kids especially

    and I started with young kids because I

    felt that that's when they were still

    excited and we didn't see the biases

    necessarily that we see in older kids

    with gender biases and coding at least

    that had been my experience in teaching

    some of the after-school clubs the girls

    were everybody is excited and every but

    in most cases better than the boys at

    that age and so that's how it started

    for me just started doing those

    after-school clubs and eventually that

    turned into working with the whole

    school and things have just scaled up

    more and more from there what were some

    of the transformative things in terms of

    it helped you think about math and

    language like in what ways so when I

    started a code again you realize what

    you start to code that you have to use

    variables and I always did just fine

    with math it was never a math genius but

    I always did well enough and you have to

    use variables you have to use functions

    and when I started to use these things I

    realized I think for the first time

    really what the purpose of a function

    was and what a function was at its core

    and it made me reflect on math that I

    had had earlier in school in my k-12

    education as a language emphasis in

    college I didn't have to take any math

    and so ironically learning to code made

    me think about variables and functions

    and realize finally what I was doing in

    high school I was able to go through and

    get answers on things and followed

    procedures and the teachers say well

    this is the procedure you follow for

    this and I was able to do that without

    understanding what I was doing and so

    that's actually what I started doing my

    first couple years as a professor was

    researching the correlation between math

    and programming ended up coming up with

    a theory called convergent cognition

    which talks about the sort of the

    bi-directional transfer that happens

    when you study complementary subjects so

    for example first of all language is

    second language studying a second

    language actually helps your first

    language even though that's not the

    intention and I found the same thing was

    true with math and programming in my own

    experience and so I wanted to see if

    others have found that in their research

    and I went out looked at the research

    and sure enough I found repeatedly

    correlations between people succeeding

    in math and

    gramming and vice-versa and first a

    second language yeah that's interesting

    I actually did cite your paper on

    convergent cognition in my chapter six

    in my dissertation because it seemed

    like the discussion forum members they

    were engaging in music through computer

    science and they both informed both like

    subject areas so yeah I think it's an

    interesting topic what about for you

    Stacy what's your story of how you got

    into computer science education so mine

    is also indirect my first experience

    with coding was as a graduate student at

    Brigham Young University in my first

    semester I'm in the church as a sign

    course professor Andy Gibbons challenged

    us to create a little game and scratch I

    think I spent about ten hours and it was

    kind of fun and from that experience I

    knew I could do it and that I liked

    doing it and a semester or two later I

    took the intro to programming class with

    Peter rich and I really liked it and it

    was creative it was logical it was

    gratifying when the code worked and the

    class itself was up I really liked the

    way it was designed but I didn't do

    anything more with it right away about a

    year later I was a research assistant

    for Peter inch and I was working with

    another student michaei Perkins who was

    designing a canvas course for elementary

    school teachers to integrate

    computational thinking across the

    curriculum and I was working on the

    lesson plans for younger grades because

    I had taught first grade but then I did

    my own thesis which was on a totally

    unrelated subject I graduated I started

    the PhD and I was looking for new

    projects and professor requests and an

    email out to all the students saying if

    you'd like to do a project where you get

    to play with little robots come talk to

    me and that sounded like fun I wasn't

    looking at it as a long-term thing it

    just was a short-term project I thought

    that when I talked to him he said you

    know there's a lot of potential here you

    could really do a lot with this topic

    and I needed a dissertation topic I was

    leaning toward professional development

    for k-12 those were my passions coding

    wasn't necessarily my passion but it was

    in a way in a way to focus my research a

    little bit and so BYU

    received a donation to buy little robots

    and other technology kits to train

    university students for preparing to be

    teachers but the donor also wanted these

    kits available to teachers in the

    community and their students and so I

    made up my project to work with the

    teachers in the community and I brought

    the robots to them and helped them

    figure out how they were gonna use them

    with their students so that was really

    the beginning for me but I don't think I

    would have necessarily gotten into it if

    I hadn't had the positive experience

    with programming if I hadn't learned

    about computational thinking I would

    have approached it differently I

    wouldn't have known to try to integrate

    that into what I was doing the teachers

    in the community and then that project

    led to other projects yeah like I didn't

    do any programming until high school so

    it'll be interesting to see like the

    kids who are starting this in

    kindergarten now that they're having

    this early exposure in fun and hopefully

    meaningful ways like what's gonna happen

    of interest for a CS and it's funny that

    you mentioned McKay his episode is gonna

    release like a couple weeks from now and

    so one of the things that he was talking

    about is how like math felt very

    decontextualized for him which relates

    to what Peter you were saying earlier in

    that once he started coding then he all

    of a sudden like understood math better

    and it provided this context for him

    he's like oh I can apply this in a

    meaningful way and some kind of

    interesting way I'm curious for both of

    you what's something that when you first

    begin working in education you like

    strongly believed or thought and now

    looking back on that you're like yeah

    that's funny

    I definitely changed that opinion when I

    started my graduate program I believed

    in best practices I was looking for the

    magic bullet it's like what works

    I thought we knew how people learned if

    we knew how they learned then you how to

    teach them and I was just here to learn

    how to teach effectively and since then

    I have come to understand that there are

    just effective practices in certain

    contexts was there a particular like

    catalyst for that shift Hartley it was

    just hearing someone say that that I was

    working with another professor for a

    math teacher ed who I hate the term best

    practices there are not best practices

    and I

    really aren't there okay yeah yeah it

    definitely relates what about for you

    Peter actually this relates to coding

    when I was gonna take over the

    programming courses in our program the

    professor that had taught them for

    thirty years was retiring and he told me

    at the time he said there's a certain

    demographic that's gonna struggle in

    your classes and you know as a naive

    young professor I thought I can teach

    anybody and I you know if they struggle

    it's because you didn't do you didn't

    teach them right you know as an

    instructor and which in one way is a

    healthy I guess attitude for a teacher

    to think it's my responsibility to make

    sure people learn right and to figure

    out what's going to work for them much

    to my chagrin over the next few years

    the students that struggled the most

    majesty the demographic that he told me

    was going to struggle which really

    bothered me and reflecting on my own

    educational experience things I'd had

    both as a TA as an undergrad and as a

    graduate student and then as a professor

    and teaching people one of the things

    I've come to learn I do think that

    anybody can learn anything but people

    have certain proclivities some people

    are better at some things and some

    people are better at other things

    interest obviously plays a big role but

    yeah there are gonna be people who

    struggle with programming and coding and

    there's gonna be other people that it

    just seems you know at second nature and

    I remember an experience I had with this

    as a TA when I was an undergrad I worked

    in a lab a computer lab and I would help

    people with their assignment and I

    didn't realize there was a girl that

    often asked for help and I didn't think

    anything of it until a couple months

    later was after that semester was over

    she actually came over to my apartment

    to audition for my roommates band and

    the way that she played the guitar and

    sang was just amazing and I realized in

    that moment I hadn't realized this

    previously that I had gestures being

    stupid because she struggled so much

    with the stuff that I didn't struggle

    with and it wasn't until later where I

    saw her excel at something that I

    struggle with right that I realized that

    I hadn't even made that judgment and so

    this is something I think over the years

    that I've come to realize is people do

    have certain

    abilities in different areas and that's

    okay right even though I think yeah

    everybody should learn how to code it's

    gonna help everybody think I do

    recognize some people are gonna pick

    that up more easily than others yeah it

    kind of reminds me of the quote that's

    been attributed to many people but

    something like judging a fish by how

    well they can fly that idea of what

    we're doing in school is kind of having

    a very narrow focus on what we're our

    expectations are and if people don't

    succeed within those expectations

    perhaps we're not looking at the other

    areas where they are excelling

    I also definitely relates with me as

    well I've had many moments like that or

    it's just like oh this person's just

    like doesn't have a time or is not

    willing or doesn't have the interest but

    then you see them in another area

    there's like wow I had no idea that you

    were this skilled in other areas so with

    computational thinking Stacey you had

    mentioned integrating that into the

    classroom I've gotten a lot of questions

    about teachers who are like hey there's

    this new thing I don't really know what

    computational thinking is I don't really

    know how to implement in my classroom I

    just know I'm being told to do that what

    would you recommend for teachers who are

    in that position yeah I think one of the

    simplest ways to integrate it is to just

    start using the terminology so to start

    identifying algorithms when you are

    using them in the classroom to start

    identifying or talking about looking for

    problems and fixing them as debugging so

    that's that's something simple you can

    do I don't think it goes as deep as we

    want to go but it's a starting point

    yeah one of the things that I've kind of

    run into a problem with is like the use

    of terms that are situational like

    algorithms applying that to every

    step-by-step process kind of

    decontextualized as the word and kind of

    waters it down so I've had a problem

    with it we're like oh well the recipe is

    an algorithm or directions to how to get

    somewhere as an algorithms like well

    yeah so those are all like kind of like

    algorithms but a recipe is a recipe

    because this is very own step-by-step

    process for a specific thing and an

    algorithm for computer programming is

    it's very specific thing so yeah it's

    kind of like an algorithm but not really

    like when people are like oh yeah you're

    tying your shoes that's

    algorithm well sort of but not really

    depends on the context do you have

    anything that you'd like to add to that

    Peter in terms of like any advice you'd

    give to somebody who's trying to

    integrate CT into their class first of

    all in response to what you've just

    mentioned you should read up on some of

    the stuff that Peter Denning has written

    about algorithms he has that same

    viewpoint that has been an interesting

    discussion that different computational

    thinking researchers and practitioners

    have had that debate in regards to how

    to get it going in the classroom I think

    for me the key to computational thinking

    is automation that's at the core of the

    process and so if we get people thinking

    about automation and there's a lot of

    different ways of doing that I think

    what will happen is they'll approach

    problem solving in a computational

    manner just like at the core of the

    scientific method the core of that is

    causation identifying causation right a

    causes B this results in that and I

    think with computational thinking people

    started talking about it because they

    wanted to describe what was happening

    when people were coding and so to me I

    know it's grown to be much more than

    that

    and in some cases doesn't even include

    coding is part of the definition which

    to me is silly because it emerged out of

    a description of what happened when

    people were coding people do need to

    look at coding as part of computational

    thinking

    I think coding is to computational

    thinking as writing is to literacy in

    other words there's a lot more to

    literacy than just writing but it's the

    creative side of things right and once

    people see it that way once teachers

    think in terms I'm less interested in

    the terminology and more interested in

    the thought processes that are going on

    and once they start thinking in terms of

    this is a creative process right and

    that's why I emphasize the coding side

    of things because that is the the

    creative aspect of things they'll end up

    thinking computationally right I don't

    need to necessarily point out that

    they're they're thinking you know that

    they're decomposing they're finding

    patterns or going through these

    different sub processes that we've

    identified with computational thinking

    if teachers see it as a form of

    expression then what they're going to do

    is enrich their students opportunities

    in the classroom back in the day we

    could express our thoughts about the

    paper by writing about it right and then

    we got sort of this multimedia

    revolution and we could express our

    ideas by May

    a multimedia presentation videos and

    powerpoints and other different types of

    things

    well if you just add coding to that list

    is it's another way of expressing the

    types of things you can do or is amazing

    right and if you start with just these

    elementary coding programs right or you

    don't necessarily need to type

    everything out there these block based

    programs you can have kids create

    interactive demonstrations that express

    their understanding of a certain topic

    in a really engaging in fun way and that

    gets at that process of thinking in

    terms of automation so my recommendation

    for anybody who wanted to think about it

    in the classroom is that its core just

    think about coding is a creative form of

    expression and if you can find a way to

    harness that you're now giving your

    students and yourself a new way to

    express ideas to explore ideas and to

    create engaging and interactive types of

    experiences so how did you respond to

    like the primary grades in particular

    I've seen some teachers who are like oh

    we're learning computational thinking a

    hundred percent without using any sort

    of device so all we're going to do is

    unplugged activities and so we're gonna

    engage in all of the CT concepts and

    learn those but we're not going to use

    any kind of coding practices on an

    actual device I might approach that in

    the same way so first of all I think the

    unplugged activities are wonderful I've

    used them when I teach coding because a

    really good way of getting at the

    concepts but just like again the idea

    for me is coding is to catch people

    thinking as writing is to literacy it's

    almost like saying we're gonna teach

    literacy and we're not gonna do any

    writing right so great

    go forth but you're limiting what you're

    going to be able to do now is writing

    difficult yes actually it is especially

    if you haven't done it before are people

    gonna struggle yes is there stuff gonna

    be any good probably not if you went

    back and read what you wrote in first

    grade you'd be like wow I was disgusted

    to me you know I mean but think about it

    from a first graders perspective like

    what they've written there you're like

    oh that's pretty good for a first grader

    we just need to think of coding the same

    way people don't need to think of coding

    in elementary school like computer

    science in college we don't have that

    expectation for any other subject area

    right the way that people think about

    mathematics and

    College is not the way that we expect

    them to think in elementary school the

    same for me is true coding there are

    some fundamental concepts and the tools

    are there now to enable people to be

    able to create without having to have a

    super deep understanding they can

    understand the fundamentals so that's

    kind of how I would approach it I think

    I love I love the unplugged activities

    but if you limit yourself to those you

    likewise you're limiting yourself to the

    potential things that your students can

    create yeah it can decontextualize it

    and I really like your analogy with

    literacy and Stasi if you have anything

    you want to add to it go for it I think

    the reason I don't have a very good

    response to how do we integrate it is

    that I think we should teach

    computational thinking by teaching

    coding right there two basic approaches

    to teaching computational thinking one

    is to integrate it across the subjects

    and the other is to teach coding there

    might be some some other options but I

    think those are the two main ones and I

    go with the latter let's teach coding

    and so I think the approach of trying to

    integrate it across the curriculum can

    work I'd rather see a complete

    integration let's develop a math and

    coding curriculum or a math and CT

    curriculum where it's totally integrated

    we're doing both all the time

    throughout like there might be some

    lessons where we don't do any coding

    there might be some lessons where we

    don't do a lot of math but let's make it

    a fully integrated curriculum rather

    than just trying to have a lesson here

    and there that integrates computational

    thinking concept with what you just said

    I'm curious how has your background in

    education kind of informed your

    understanding of CS or CTE or like

    specifically what you were just talking

    about with integration I have taught

    first grade

    I've taught middle school and I've

    taught college and you know I know

    enough about development that I know

    it's better to start young right I I

    learned coding when I was 40 and I feel

    like I can I can learn to code I can do

    this and I don't think it's too late for

    adults to learn these skills but I know

    that my kids are much faster at coding

    they can just do it better and more

    naturally than I can because they

    started younger that's one of the things

    that just starting young is the benefit

    and what about you Peter how has your

    background kind of informed your

    approach to CS or CT because you've

    mentioned a couple of times like

    contextualizing like what made you

    really focus on that in particular or

    other areas I agree with what Staci is

    said about integrating that's a good

    thing to do it's a hard thing to do -

    yeah good like full-on integration can

    be difficult but I think it helps to

    have specialists working together a good

    math teacher and a good coding teenager

    but have them work together that's where

    I've seen things be successful where we

    expect one teacher to do everything I

    think that is usually recipe for burnout

    and cynicism was the teachers will often

    become maybe a little jaded that they

    especially at elementary level we expect

    elementary teachers to be generalists

    they have to learn everything and at the

    same time we want them to be specialists

    right so hey you need to know everything

    so you're generalist now we're gonna

    have a two-year training on math and

    you're becoming a math specialist and

    then we have a two-year literacy

    training and then as to your science

    training and and I can understand when I

    go in and they tell teachers and

    professional development this is what

    we're gonna do if they're thinking this

    is just the way the pendulum has swung

    but by the end of the year it's gonna be

    something different and so I think more

    than anything one of the things I've

    learned from this is we need to respect

    teachers but take advantage of

    collaborative efforts and people's

    different abilities to have them work

    together and I know that's a hard thing

    it's easy as a teacher to just do your

    own thing I'm a professor I I do my own

    thing all the time and I get away with

    it because my students are great they're

    graduate students so you know how to

    play the game of school really well by

    the time they get to me I can be an

    awful teacher and they're gonna do fine

    you know so that's different at the

    elementary level we also expect them to

    be the best teachers so I think it's

    it's high expectations of elementary

    teachers but yeah if we can sort of take

    advantage of hey you are generalist but

    this is your area of emphasis and I am a

    specialist and this is my area of

    emphasis and instead of just

    specializing in our silos if we can

    specialize together I think that's

    probably what I've seen my experience

    going into different schools

    doing math integration types of things

    which is what I did for a lot of my

    doctoral work that seems to be a more

    effective approach where teachers get

    excited about the area that they're

    digging deep in rather than burned out

    from being the person that has to do it

    all

    so you mentioned silos like the content

    silos and whatnot that's something that

    I had read about and was like oh yeah

    that makes sense that we should try and

    break those down and it wasn't until I

    did my dissertation that I really saw

    like what that could potentially look

    like and how diverse the amount of

    typically separated content areas could

    all kind of come together to create

    something interesting and so that really

    changed my own perspective so I'm

    curious for each of you how has your own

    research kind of impacting your

    understanding of Education when we were

    looking at what factors influenced kids

    attitudes toward coding we found that

    peer and parent influence mattered a

    whole lot and we hadn't known that going

    in we hadn't you know that wasn't part

    of the research because people who were

    measuring student attitudes toward

    coding we're looking at their gender and

    their age and not a lot of other factors

    right and so even though there was

    research out there about family support

    and influence it wasn't in the studies

    we were looking at so yeah that's

    something where our research affected my

    view of Education we still have to

    figure out how to how to use that like

    how do we then involve parents better in

    kids education and there are a lot of

    people researching that do you have any

    off-the-cuff like hey I think we might

    need to look into doing a B or C more or

    XYZ less in order to help with that in

    my work with boot-up where we're looking

    at bringing coding and computational

    thinking into schools I really want

    there to be a component I want schools

    to commit to involving parents I want

    there to be some kind of family night at

    the school we want schools committing to

    this because we know that's gonna make

    our program more effective we also want

    teachers committing to teaching coding

    or computational thinking every week

    because we know that's gonna make it

    more effective yeah it has been

    frustrating see some districts like yeah

    we're gonna do coding

    gonna do it one hour a semester it's

    like that's not and uh right what about

    for you Peter how's your research kind

    of informed your understandings of

    Education well I think Stacy is nailed

    it there especially in terms of where my

    interest is right now the effect that

    family has on education and the social

    structures that are surrounding kids is

    it's hard to understate how important

    those structures are so there's not much

    more I can add to what Stacy said about

    that in terms of my research I had a few

    personal experiences that can support

    that like Stacy said I shouldn't we

    should have been surprised by this right

    it was such a powerful effect mediating

    effect for everything else in her

    dissertation that we found for kids

    interests their perception of coders and

    the utility they basically all funneled

    through this social influence factor of

    peers and parents what kids thought

    their peers and parents thought so you

    know a couple of social factors really

    strong on what people decide to study

    and what they take an interest in right

    anytime that we've offered an

    after-school Club when I first started

    doing those after-school clubs when I

    first started teaching coding I remember

    one town south of here we said okay

    we'll do it later Robotics Club and you

    have a limited space and limited

    robotics so I said we can take a max of

    I think I said 18 kids because I had

    nine kits and I wanted to pair them up

    in a kit and that was the capacity of

    the room so we sent out a notice to

    parents and we said we'll just take

    sixth graders and we sent out the notice

    right as I was leaving work on a Monday

    afternoon so it was almost it was like

    five o'clock

    sat down hit like quarter to seven check

    my email and we had 68 requests to join

    that Robotics Club these were not the

    kids that were asking it was the parents

    within two hours we had just it was I

    mean it was incredible you know four

    times the number of people that we could

    even take at one school and every time

    that we offered something after school

    like this the parental interest is so

    high so like Stacy said I should have

    been surprised

    I knew this might there's my own

    personal experience and so and I live

    years ago decades ago at this point I

    actually taught adult literacy in rural

    Mexico and so I lived out in in what's

    called a nihilo in Mexico there's no

    plumbing there was electricity and the

    helos and there were probably about 150

    people who lived in the village that I

    lived in and that's if they were all

    there most of the men were seasonal

    workers in the United States but I

    learned something there about education

    and dedication to education there were

    some fathers there who would walk their

    children to the next village over and it

    would take them a good hour and a half

    to get there and make sure they could

    get a bus so that they could get the bus

    their kids could get the bus and go into

    the city which was another hour away so

    that they could have a proper education

    and I was teaching their father how to

    read right but he knew the value of

    learning he was willing every day to

    walk his kids an hour and a half three

    hours right because time to go there and

    back and wait for his kids and then

    their kids his kids had to go in to get

    the bus to go in the city and the bus

    came once a day in those villages and so

    it was this idea of parental influence

    is so strong and just society's

    influence right my wife she's from

    another country and the way that she

    thinks about education is strongly

    shaped by the society that she grew up

    in as well so yeah I think we really

    need to when we were saying we're gonna

    teach kids to code it's so much more

    than just teaching kids and teaching

    their teachers right because that's

    where a lot of my emphasis is on

    preparing the teachers but these family

    code nights and how we talk about coding

    and computational thinking in society

    makes a really big difference on whether

    they see it as useful whether they have

    an interest in it and their perceptions

    of learning to code and to think

    computationally overall yeah I'm I'm

    curious if a decade from now if

    performance pay is still gonna be a

    thing for educators because yes

    educators can't have a large impact on

    students however it is not the only

    thing that is impacting students there's

    all these things outside of that teacher

    to student relationship that is

    informing how well they can or cannot

    learn something or how much time they

    can spend on it absolutely but I guess

    we'll find out I'll set a reminder ten

    years from now how's this going

    were there any surprises in your

    research and have any of those surprises

    changed your own like philosophies or

    pedagogy so I'm not sure this was a

    surprise more of a confirmation but wow

    look at the effect of it and some other

    research that I've done where we

    surveyed teachers Cate teachers around

    the world and we asked a bunch of

    different questions you know how pretty

    for this and of course not a surprise

    for teachers to say nope I didn't have

    any computer science background people

    are teaching computing at the elementary

    and middle school levels they're not

    people who decided to go into computer

    science education the one thing that has

    stood out to me as I've talked to

    teachers is how often they say when we

    asked them what changes have you noticed

    in your students since you've started

    teaching this is teacher saying my kids

    are more resilient that word keeps

    popping up resilient huh

    the idea that they persevere through

    hard problems more because of what

    they've been learning and coding and

    some of the teachers have said and it's

    flowed over into other areas I think

    there's two messages there one of the

    messages is this is a really valuable

    sort of soft skill right it's a

    disposition rather that can be developed

    by learning to code then people can

    persevere through hard problems but the

    other message there is if you're

    persevering through hard problems that

    means that you're struggling and this is

    something that when I go a night and I

    try to get people excited about coding I

    know teachers are very hesitant when I

    first say you're gonna learn to code

    today right and they're like no no I I

    don't beep nothing and then we do some

    unplugged activities and at the end of

    the first day they're like I can totally

    do this they're super excited we give

    them another week of that and they're

    like Mia

    I code this is fantastic I code all over

    the place and they're starting to think

    coding is easy and then we ask them to

    do something and then they learn about

    the perseverance all right they learn

    like oh this this just got hard and I do

    think that's something that has stood

    out to me

    his teachers saying students are

    sticking through the struggle and many

    other students are doing well I don't

    think that's necessarily true of all

    students i I've been watching different

    teachers I've taught kids myself I know

    that some kids hit the difficulties and

    they don't deal with them as well

    but just seeing the preponderance of how

    often teachers are saying you know kids

    have become more resilient failure is

    less of a summative evaluation right on

    who they are or their intelligence and

    more formative evaluation formative

    feedback on their program at the time

    it's less of a an indictment of their

    intelligence and more of just the

    process of learning which is if there's

    one thing I could take away from this

    whole you know teaching kids to code

    that would be it

    right is hey you know you've just

    learned how to push through struggle

    that's that's fantastic

    and for anyone who's listening for

    context Peter's not just looking at like

    a single district in a rural area with

    like five teachers like this the idea

    that resilience is coming up is across

    many districts in many different parts

    of the world yeah this was a study when

    we put out I we had teachers from 23

    different countries respond and we asked

    them this question and that was it was

    an open-ended question they could have

    said anything because had kids wear

    different shoes but we had enough

    teachers say that they noticed kids were

    resilient that was something that

    definitely something I want to look into

    further and look at sort of that whole

    idea of productive struggle because it

    is there is struggle right I see that

    with my own students when I'm teaching

    them to code

    I just got my student ratings from this

    past semester so I'm definitely reading

    about it right now they're like this was

    really hard you know I'm like yeah it

    was really hard but I really love it

    when they say this was really hard and I

    didn't realize how much I would enjoy

    the struggle my students say that I'm

    like oh that is that's fantastic right

    she saw the struggle and she enjoyed the

    struggle because there's value in

    overcoming and in pushing through things

    and we can get kids to see that and then

    they can learn anything what's something

    that you wish more people kind of have

    read about or understood about

    computational thinking or computer

    science in terms of educators like what

    I'm what I'm kind of getting at is are

    there any like misconceptions or things

    that you just wish more people knew like

    hey just stick with it like have some

    grit or resilience or things like that I

    don't know if you've seen the movie it

    doesn't seem like an old movie to me but

    I think it's like almost 20 years old

    now but cast away yeah oh wow that is

    like 20 years ago

    and now my kids like that old movie I

    think it's not that where he creates

    fire and he's like look what I have

    created he's got this higher good that

    to me is the feeling that I get when I

    make something you know and I see that

    in my students and they see that

    excitement I want everybody to have that

    excitement if people can taste that

    excitement it's mundane fires been

    around for a long time and what they're

    gonna create especially when they're

    starting out whether it's computer

    science in college or computational

    thinking in kindergarten when they're

    starting out what they're gonna make is

    something that somebody else has already

    made and it's not that impressive right

    but it should be impressive to them and

    they should feel like looking at the

    bonfire and saying look what I've

    created and I see I see people do that

    with hello world they're like look yeah

    right it's a button and it says hello

    you know and I made it and that's I

    think that I think there's there's

    something about creation in all of us I

    think we're creators humans by nature

    are creators and so this ability you

    know going back like I had mentioned in

    terms of it's a form of expression maybe

    another way of saying that is it's a

    form of creation and people can express

    themselves in all sorts of ways there's

    no limits it's infinite the

    open-endedness of coding if there's one

    thing I wish everybody knew about it was

    how exciting it can be to see something

    that you have created work right however

    simple that might be there's power in

    creation yeah and I think having that

    perspective if you've been doing sing

    something for a long time being able to

    celebrate those small wins and really

    kind of recognize oh yeah wow that seems

    really simple to me that was quite an

    accomplishment or their ability level as

    something we had to focus on when I was

    going through like the music ed program

    was a lot of undergrads in particular

    are like at professional or near

    professional level playing and then the

    first time they go into like a

    fifth-grade band they're just like why

    do they sound so bad and it's like well

    you sounded that bad too

    it's just been a long time since you've

    sounded that way yeah remember what it

    felt like for everything to be new what

    do you wish there is more research on

    that could inform your own practices I

    wish there were more long term

    search I think it's coming it's just

    this is new so we need to know that

    teaching coding is improving student

    learning somehow we need to know what

    the outcomes are so that we can decide

    how important this is to teach because I

    think we're still figuring that out and

    trying to determine whether it is

    important enough whether the benefits

    are great enough to give up other parts

    of the curriculum great answer can I

    just give it a start and I'll be like

    yeah that was good plus one I've

    mentioned a lot of these already

    anything the support structures there's

    one thing I wish I knew I wish I knew

    the future I think it'd just convince

    people how important it is I think

    things are gonna change and that sounds

    so obvious because they always do but if

    you could help people see how things are

    gonna change people don't complain about

    a lack of blacksmiths right but

    blacksmithing was a super important part

    of the advancement of us of society back

    in the day well we don't complain about

    it because the jobs that we automated

    that blacksmiths used to do and we've

    replaced with other things and so I

    think the same way if we can help people

    have a vision for the future and

    understand how the future could be and

    we could really help people you know

    progress a little bit more I agree with

    Stacy about long-term research it's

    harder to do long-term research just

    because the nature of being a researcher

    you want to publish quickly so you know

    a four-year study now that that's a long

    time to to take for one article you know

    our one study so but we really do need

    those things we need to see what the

    long-term effects are of people learning

    Temptation thinking and coding and

    they're not all gonna be rosy right but

    how do we best support that so going

    back to the question of the issue of

    social structures how do we support

    people through this and those people are

    the kids as well as the teachers I think

    teachers are the Gateway for all of this

    learning that's going to happen

    Elementary we've done a really good job

    of getting coding started in elementary

    school I see now the teachers that

    personally need the most support I think

    are our middle school or early secondary

    teachers because we get the kids all

    excited they're kind of like the

    teachers after the first week of

    training they're like this is awesome I

    love coding I can totally do it but you

    know they're still writing elementary

    stuff and

    moving them to that next level I think

    is the next challenge is how do we get

    the teachers to that next level and then

    likewise get students to the next level

    so that by the time they get to high

    school they are nearing that college

    level of thinking and really starting to

    think in terms of what can they create

    that'll make things better yeah and then

    as the middle school improves in terms

    of like increasing complexity and

    whatnot then that's going to impact high

    school which is then going to impact

    college and then the undergraduate

    programs the NCS are now gonna have to

    go and figure out okay now we've got an

    extreme range of like people are coming

    in who have been in this from K all the

    way through 12 been doing coding and CS

    and then some people might not have any

    experience with that so yeah that'll be

    an interesting problem for them to work

    through yeah let's make that promote

    let's create the problem okay I'm in so

    you had mentioned kind of like the

    difficulties of spending four years like

    creating a single article like if you're

    doing like ethnic graphic study or

    something like how hard it is to do this

    longitudinal stuff I kind of want to

    like vamp on that like it is hard in

    general just being a scholar in

    education and working in the field of

    education I'm curious how the two of you

    have kind of tried to stave off that

    burnout or just getting overwhelmed and

    in being in the field as researchers and

    educators studying interesting things

    helps what I did for my first several

    years of being a professor I kind of

    felt like I hit a point where I knew

    what every study on that subject was

    gonna say it didn't seem novel to me

    anymore I thought it was all relevant

    basically the study said yeah absolutely

    do this it was kind of like saying now

    we know that exercise is good right so

    do it right now I know you can really go

    into depth on that a lot more and really

    study the different types of exercise

    for me right now what's keeping

    everything going is the fact that I find

    coding and computational thinking super

    interesting it's such a new area

    especially in terms of the younger

    grades but I think there's so much for

    us to learn and so my problem right now

    is more about what to focus on then how

    do I keep going I've got two

    things out there just looking at my

    schedule just today right I've got like

    five different topics that I'm working

    on different research teams with today

    that's probably a bad thing how do you

    narrow that down though how do you like

    focus on what you're gonna say no to and

    what you're gonna say yes to there is a

    lot yeah in this case Peter does not say

    no I say no I am selective I set

    boundaries

    I'm pretty sure Peter does not say no

    you know that I'm going to say no to

    some things not enough things so that's

    part of the problem especially when it

    comes to this because it's stuff that I

    love so yeah part of it is learning how

    to say no learning how to say maybe

    later to prioritize and say right now I

    can do this I can't do seven things at

    once and do them well but I can do you

    know I can do two things and do them

    well and get seven things done faster if

    I take them two at a time than if I

    write so yeah so I'm probably not the

    best asking that it stays mental and I'm

    not the best to ask because I'm just

    beginning my professional career but you

    know I think a lot of students burn out

    of grad school as well one of the keys

    is to set boundaries to be selective

    about the projects you say yes you think

    another way to avoid burnout though is

    to work with people that you enjoy

    working with not just the subjects you

    enjoy but the people you enjoy and that

    you can motivate each other to get

    things done especially if you are

    meeting regularly that regular meeting

    that we have was motivation to get

    something done

    by the time we were meeting each week

    yeah your comment about grad school one

    of the reasons why I asked this question

    of every guest is because I want people

    to have like a variety of tools to

    choose from like oh I can try this to

    help out with that because grad school

    can really mess you up in particular and

    being in the field of education it you

    can definitely get burned out I know a

    lot of teachers who quit within the

    first five years of being in the field

    and not knowing how difficult it is in

    advance of it and not having some tools

    to be able to cope with it it's it can

    make a difference whether you do it or

    not know that stuff so I'm curious how

    have you both like continued to iterate

    on your own abilities so I'm really

    a practice nerd in that I'm always

    trying to find ways to improve whatever

    it is that I'm passionate about and when

    it comes to teaching what are you two

    doing to kind of try and improve

    yourself as a teacher I try to be

    reflective I never teach the same course

    twice meaning I might teach the same

    course but I don't teach it in the same

    way I'm always do something I'm trying

    to seek feedback and then implement that

    feedback I don't like the poor will know

    the summative assessment at the end the

    feedback from the students that's

    anonymous that says you were a crap

    teacher and I didn't learn anything you

    know so I'm trying to ask them during

    the process what's working for you

    what's not working for you so I can try

    to change in the middle and not wait

    till the end my poor students their

    guinea pigs I'm trying new things out

    all the time sometimes it works

    sometimes it doesn't I'll usually have a

    feedback session in class midway through

    and towards the end for the same reasons

    that Stacie's mentioned

    I'll try things I'll actually ask

    students who have completed the class

    what I'm thinking about changes to

    classes in the future I'll say hey guys

    something about changing this you've

    been through the class what do you think

    and it has stopped me several times from

    making certain changes because I found

    out the prayer students really liked

    some things that I was like God maybe

    I'll take that out yeah as far as other

    skills projects this is what I need to

    say no more but like making a project

    out of something and making yourself

    accountable like you Stacey nailed it

    there things get done way better when

    you're accountable to somebody on a

    regular schedule it's not surprising but

    I operate that way if I know that I have

    to meet with someone at a specific time

    they're expecting something to be done

    that's what's gonna push you to get it

    done on time so projects other people

    and always be seeking feedback it also

    resonates actually with him McKay said

    he's always trying to get feedback and

    grow from that and whatnot so do you

    have any questions for myself for the

    field at large well I'm wondering what

    Buddha is doing to adapt to our new and

    evolving reality right because Buddha

    does a lot of in-person training are you

    shifting some of that in-person training

    to online training and are you finding

    ways to then provide the kind of support

    online that people expect from your

    in-person support yeah for context so we

    provide in

    percent PD usually six hours workshops

    basically and we do about eight of them

    over the course of two years and we

    really value in person stuff after the

    those workshops to be able to go into

    the classroom and like model what it

    looks like with your kids obviously

    things have changed with co19 so what we

    have been doing is virtual PD sessions

    where we are like going into zoom and

    we're demonstrating okay here are some

    of the pedagogy that we would have done

    in person in terms of like one-on-one

    asking questions and guiding techniques

    and things like that and facilitating

    we're gonna model it in zoom and show

    you how you can do that in breakout

    rooms or we're gonna model it using like

    a group setting in video conferencing

    and kind of talk about how to do that we

    don't think it's as effective as

    in-person but we are doing it and we are

    also offering stuff like if you would

    like us to do a virtual model teaching

    with one of your classes like where kids

    get on and do video conferencing we can

    do that as well so what we're gonna do

    from here on out is if things improve

    and schools resume as normal for next

    school year which who knows if that's

    gonna happen because we're recording

    this in like early May but if things do

    resume as normal

    we're at least gonna give the option of

    if you want to do one or two PDS online

    so you can learn how to facilitate

    online settings and see what this looks

    like in an online setting so you can

    potentially apply it for future times

    where you need to teach online that'll

    be an option for each district otherwise

    we'll go back to focusing on in-person

    stuff because we really believe that

    that's like the best way to do things I

    would like to talk about the question of

    should computer science be required in

    Emma tree yeah what are your

    perspectives on that I can see both

    sides I am a little bit on the fence

    still so I think the argument against

    requiring computer science in ka is

    mainly what Peter talked about before is

    that I really reluctant to put another

    mandate on teachers and schools because

    they're already doing so much right

    there's so much we could be teaching but

    we can't teach at all and I don't want

    to require teachers to learn a whole new

    literacy and I think from the teachers

    perspective they could say we don't have

    time to

    yes we don't have the money to pay for

    the training maybe we don't have the

    technology we don't have the money for

    that those are all compelling arguments

    on the other side though you could argue

    that this is if not an essential skill

    then is certainly a very useful skill

    and it may it's it's on its way to

    becoming in a central scope wait wait

    I'm talking about coding and

    computational thinking but there I think

    the people who are arguing that a lot of

    them are in the industry and so I'm

    reluctant to let people in industry

    decide educational policy but you also

    then if we believe that teaching coding

    is advantageous to students and I do

    believe that then you introduce the

    issue of equity if coding advantages

    students and we're not requiring coding

    for all schools a lot of students aren't

    gonna have access to it and so then

    they're at a disadvantage

    to me that may be the most compelling

    argument for requiring coding in k-8

    schools yeah I have a very unpopular

    opinion about this and it might surprise

    some people so I during my Master's

    heard about Sudbury schools so I don't

    know if either of you are familiar with

    the Sudbury model but it's this idea

    that kids come to this building and

    they're able to learn whatever they want

    and teachers are like viewed as staff

    members and on par with like

    kindergartners so kindergartners get to

    vote on budget decisions and have equal

    weight as like some of the teachers who

    are there and like all this like wait

    what's going on this this is actually

    has happened for a long time and like

    one of the stories is like this kid just

    came in and for like two years straight

    and was just like I just want to fish

    and just fished every day for two years

    straight and then one day was like I

    want to learn astrophysics and then like

    douve deep into that so like that's one

    of the extreme stories of something

    that's come out of that I'm a huge fan

    of cultivating individualized expertise

    without mandating people to learn

    specific subject areas I was very

    passionate about music and if that's all

    I could make during school during the

    however many hours is there per day I

    would have loved that I hated pretty

    much every other subject hours in if I

    could have died of deep into that that

    would have been amazing for me and I

    would have really been able to thrive in

    that kind of a setting however I think

    kids need to have access to all of these

    different things and have the

    opportunity to explore those things and

    if you want to become a generalist at

    everything then cool you should be able

    to have that opportunity but the more we

    like mandate we need to do this and we

    need to learn this and we need to learn

    that then it's now okay you're gonna

    spend five minutes a day on all these

    essential things but you're not actually

    really gonna dive deep into any of them

    and I know that's an unpopular opinion

    but that's it is what it is

    and I don't ever see that really like

    reaching mainstream in terms of what

    schools are gonna actually do no but I

    love it and if I had known about Sudbury

    schools that's what I would have wanted

    some of the kids do I love the idea of

    on a story but even Montessori is too

    rigid because you have to learn things

    in order yep and one of the things that

    I think a lot of us are learning with

    the whole Kovach conditions right now is

    how to manage our children's education

    right and they're learning rather how

    much I think most of us are maybe barely

    even managing we're doing the Sudbury

    model at my house thank you it's been

    interesting you know with my kids I

    tried to encourage them and by trying to

    encourage them that translates to I

    bribe my children right using all sorts

    of behavioral models and other things

    right like I want you to have a goal

    right and once you have an intellectual

    goal which you have a physical goal I

    want you to have these different goals

    that you're working through each week

    and we'll do things to help you

    accomplish those things so you got to

    choose it and dig deep and one of the

    things I've learned is that they still

    need some structure it depends on the

    child different kids need different

    types of structure right one of my kids

    he's just wildly skilled and talented in

    multiple areas but if it's not something

    he's interested in doing and if it's not

    his idea even if it's one of the areas

    that he loves he won't do it right right

    so yeah that's an interesting model so

    in terms of your question of should all

    teachers learn to code you know I think

    there's benefit my real question was

    should all schools be teaching kids to

    code not should all kids but should all

    schools so maybe not all grades maybe

    not all teachers but they should all

    have that opportunity as what you're

    saying yeah I think so it'd be great to

    have the opportunity with teachers who

    were interested in it right and in that

    case you know on the one hand do we

    require teachers to learn it if we say

    no just to be

    we're interested we may end up missing

    some people who don't know that they're

    interested yeah you know most elementary

    school teachers elementary ed teachers

    when they take my coding class right now

    for Allied teachers I don't think any of

    them go into the class thinking cool I'm

    gonna learn how to code usually they go

    to class the first day and they're like

    why do I need to learn this right and

    then by the end of the semester I still

    have that attitude from some students

    and others that it's unlocked something

    in them right and they're like wow this

    was super useful this was super fun I

    really enjoyed this and they're gonna be

    the teachers that are gonna be

    transformative at their kids schools but

    only because they had to learn it yeah

    it's a tough question right if I can

    only teach people who are interested I

    mean ask any teacher they would love to

    teach a class of interested people right

    right that's kinda what graduate school

    is in many regards graduate students are

    great because they they're all pretty

    they've decided they want to be there

    which is different than you know

    formative education where people have to

    be there right

    yeah and I've seen that difference right

    in teaching and I've seen that when I've

    taught at the elementary levels and I've

    seen it and I've taught adults to read

    right and I seen what I've taught adults

    to code and it is it's the challenging

    it's a tough question do we require it

    of everybody no not everybody

    necessarily needs to learn it but if we

    don't we'll would be prepared for the

    future we may not be right so then I

    think there is something where we need

    to look at it and take a serious look at

    so everybody needs to have an experience

    with it then they can decide whether or

    not they want to go further with it yeah

    and that's one of the counter-arguments

    that I totally get with like my

    approaches there are many things that

    I've done in life where once I tried it

    I got hooked on just like this is

    amazing like I want to keep learning

    about this subject area and had I only

    focus on one subject area and not

    learning about all these other things

    then I would have never found those

    interests so while I really wanted

    cultivating individual expertise and

    whatnot there is also like the balance

    between diving super deep and one thing

    and also kind of learning a little bit

    about everything are there any other

    questions you'd like to talk about one

    question I'm interested in is you've

    worked with teachers all over the

    country

    what is so I guess two questions one

    what is the one piece of advice you

    would give teachers about learning to

    code

    - what's the one thing that has stuck

    out as you have worked with teachers and

    all sorts of different contexts and

    you've been a teacher obviously yourself

    at the same level so what's the one

    thing that stuck out and what is the one

    thing that you would recommend one thing

    that I in general have recommended that

    all teachers understand is there are no

    silver bullets just with anything and

    the more perspectives that you can learn

    on how to bring to the table the better

    so even if you're diving deep into

    learning one approach or one way or

    whatever learn others and try and find

    ways to incorporate those because every

    kid that you're working with is gonna be

    different than their peers and so while

    you might have like these tools in your

    box that are great for like 90% of your

    kids well what about the 10% who aren't

    you need to find ways to that you can

    engage them and work with them well

    obviously take into account everything

    that we talked about with like the

    social interactions that are influencing

    what they're doing but that's just the

    general recommendation that I give can

    you repeat the other part teachers to

    code all over the country one of the

    things that we have noticed working with

    educators across the country is that

    there's just like general misconception

    and fear about how difficult or easy

    coding is and so a lot of educators go

    into this very hesitant or reluctant and

    or even fearful because like it's just a

    scary thing and I don't know how I'm

    gonna do this thing and even if we're

    like yeah but we have taught

    kindergarteners how to do it so

    certainly you as somebody with like

    degrees and figure out this thing that a

    kindergartner can there's still that

    fear and it's not until that a teacher

    actually dives into it and tries it then

    they're like oh I can totally do this

    thing and honestly it's in the first

    like ten minutes of our PD session where

    we're just like immediately coding right

    off the bat let's create something

    simple and fun and then all of a sudden

    that changes the dynamic in the room

    like at first there might just be this

    like palpable tension in the room of

    like oh I don't know about this this is

    scary and then there's like laughter and

    sharing and conversing and it's fun and

    it's just because they realized oh I can

    do this thing after kind of like working

    through some of those misconceptions

    and that's consistent across like

    whether we're working with like library

    media specialists like general

    elementary teachers or grade-level

    specific ones or people who are teaching

    technology classes or paraprofessionals

    whatever like across the board just

    going in and trying it suddenly not as

    scary so now my cells like piece of

    advice as well let's just jump in and

    try it yeah definitely so where my

    people go to connect with each of you

    and the organizations that you work with

    you can find me at you I use website I'm

    in the instructional psychology and

    technology department that's IP and T

    probably the best place to go kind of

    find what it is that I'm doing who I am

    those types of things you can go to my

    website which I hardly ever add anything

    to Peter J rich calm and just if you

    want to send an email

    Peter underscore rich at BYU edu and I'm

    in LinkedIn

    Stacy s ta CIE Mason and you can also

    email me at stacy underscore Mason at

    BYU dot edu and that concludes this

    week's episode of the cska podcast make

    sure you check the show notes if you're

    interested in some more information on

    some of the topics that we discussed for

    example some of the papers that were

    mentioned in here or learning more about

    Sudbury schools etcetera and just please

    consider sharing with somebody who might

    be interested in learning more about

    what we discussed in this particular

    episode stay tuned next week for another

    unpacking scholarship episode and two

    weeks from now will be another interview

    I hope you're all having a wonderful

    week and I will talk to you next week

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