Recommendations for Preventing Burnout in Education (Part 3)
Building off the previous episode on depression, suicide, and CS education, this episode is a supercut of guests responding to how they take care of themselves and stave off burnout. If you have not done so yet, I highly recommend listening to last year’s supercut on the same topic or the episode from two years ago to hear perspectives from other guests.
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Welcome back to another episode of the
csk8 podcast my name is jared o'leary
each week of this podcast is usually an
interview with a guest or multiple
guests or a solo episode where i unpack
scholarship in relation to computer
science education the last couple of
years the week after
national suicide prevention week i've
shared a super cut of guests responding
to a question around how to prevent
burnout i'm sharing this because i fully
understand how difficult it is to be an
education or an educator and so i want
to share ideas from
many of the wonderful guests that we've
had on the show so that way you too can
hopefully learn how to prevent burnout
and hopefully stay in the field because
if you listen to the episode that i
released a couple weeks ago where i kind
of talk about some of my concerns about
the future of the field i'm genuinely
concerned so i hope this episode is
helpful for you and know that in the
show notes at jaredowlery.com you'll
find links to each one of these episodes
so that way you can actually listen to
the full episode as well as a bunch of
computer science education resources and
then even a bunch of gaming and drumming
stuff if you're into that too while
you're there you'll notice that this
podcast is powered by boot up
professional development which is the
non-profit that i work for check out
boot up pd.org if you want to see the
free curriculum that i create or learn
more about the paid professional
development alright so the first clip
that we're going to listen to is from
laura desenza this is from episode 102.
definitely making sure i take time to do
my passions as well so on top of
teaching i'm also a high school
basketball and volleyball coach so
having that time that's almost scheduled
from august all the way through march
that's you know i've got at least two
and a half hours a day in the gym with
the high school kids and playing with
them and coaching them and focusing on
that and then i'm a crafter too so
making sure you know i know maybe i'm
doing this project for the kids but
let's have some fun and do it for myself
so taking that time away but also
knowing that i am prepared we've been
through worse it's going to be okay so
let's just see what we've done and what
we can make better or adjust for
whatever situation we're in so you know
we're in person full time great you know
i can use the 3d printer that's in my
classroom or i can use you know the
doodle pens you know we're remote now
well maybe we get cardboard and we try
to make our own 3d structure out of it
it's going to be okay the kids are still
learning the concepts and the ideas i
want them to learn it's just in a
different form right now the next clip
is from leanne delizer this is from
episode 104 it helps to be an internal
optimist i joke that i'm a glass
recorder full kind of girl i often
surprise taxi drivers when i got off of
airplanes because they're expecting like
grumpy travel passenger and i'm like
it's a great day and they're like what
why huh and i'm like it is highly
improbable that any day will be the
worst day of real life
you only get one of those but you get a
whole lot of dates and so every day
holds promise and while i recognize that
in the current place i am in my life
there's a lot of privilege to support
that growing up i was a foster child for
a short while and that has really
grounded in me to take the things around
me that are good the progress that we
make every day and value it that doesn't
mean you don't strive harder to keep
making change but it does mean you value
the small things and the small wins
along the way and i think that is
bored of who i am as an individual and i
also need to credit a little bit of my
house crew so for those of you who know
me on social media you may have seen at
the last 60 and the last csta
i found places where i could go with my
israel and diane levitt were both not
only academic colleagues but good
friends and we
literally retreated to a house
together because when you're listening
in isolation to that stew of community
that you've talked about those negative
messages when you don't have anybody
around you to unpack them can be
dangerous and so how do we find
not only our
allies but also the folks that you can
be vulnerable with how do you say like i
didn't understand that to someone who's
not going to judge you for it talk
through it be able to say like i don't
have the right language around this yet
but i am thinking about this from this
way over the last year i've developed a
lot of worked really hard to try and
develop improvement in my own language
about how i
refer to black indigenous and hispanic
people how to be
more
thoughtful in the way that i engage
other audiences and people whose life
experiences is different from my own i'm
not there yet i'm still working on it
but it's really really helpful to me to
have someone who i trust where i can try
things and they'll tell me like no you
don't want to go that's not right
and at the same time to wander in that
space together to think through like
what are our goals for the world and how
do we get there or maybe that's not the
right particular compass direction
anymore and we have to go one degree to
the left but having those sounding
boards who understand enough about your
professional domain not just your
personal one that you can live in that
camaraderie is really important the next
clip that we're gonna listen to is from
mitch resnick this is from episode 106.
when i do it i invest a lot of my life
in my work so i could be someone who
people would see could get burned out i
think there are a few ways of trying to
avoid it i do you know have some other
activities i enjoy running in the
morning i run most mornings i play
tennis with a good friend once a week
but there are other outlets but maybe
even more important there are a lot of
satisfaction i get from when i see the
impact that the work is having with
young people around the world like just
yesterday a close colleague sent me an
email that they received from someone
who was talking about that they visited
their brother they spent time with their
nephew and then the 11 year old nephew
who would learn scratch this was a
nephew that had lots of challenges
wasn't always successful in you know
sort of the traditional
academic channels but you've really
become excited about scratch and start
to see themselves in a new way and it
opened up them seeing themselves and the
world in a different way so when i hear
stories like that that helps prevent the
burnout did i just see the meaning that
it has in young people's lives now
here's a clip from episode 108 which is
an interview with george valenzuela what
i do is i loop back the things that i
enjoy doing but i don't have time to do
and for me it's hiking it's sightseeing
one that i do do a lot is eating out i'm
a big foodie right stuff like that what
i do is i make time for those things
right now on the weekends friday and
saturday my wife and my two children we
map out something that we want to do in
nature it could be canoeing it could be
sailing row boating whatever or it could
be hiking and then we find a restaurant
something that we've never tried before
and so we do that like on a saturday on
a sunday it could be a pool day it could
be a game day a movie day but the whole
point is to do something that you enjoy
doing and that's how you restore your
emotional health and your burnout and
your fatigue you have to do something
where your mind is no longer engaged in
that workflow and i think if you do that
on a consistent basis
like for me it's the weekends and it's
after 9 30 at night you know and at 9 30
at night it might sound funny to you or
to someone listening but i like to watch
things that make me laugh like the
golden girls i mean it's true the
jeffersons
martin shows that i like humor that i
like and it takes my mind off the
workflow and the thing that i've
realized is that it could be the
resurrection work is going to be there
it's not going away
and so there's nothing wrong in you know
disconnecting for your own mental health
yeah that definitely resonates that's
something that i had to learn to do and
value and it wasn't really until
a therapist pointed out like hey you
don't you're not making time for
yourself all you're doing is working
yeah and so one thing like i was in
chicago last week and i did a gig there
actually and
my wife said you've done i don't know
what it's been man it's been
since april 2020 i have been basically
every week doing pt and just basically
every week and she said to me you have
not been on a real vacation a long time
so let's take two three days since
chicago let's do something fun and no
work and so that was hard for me it was
very hard for me because i have a lot
going on and so
like i sat down and i wrote down so what
do i want to do in chicago on my bucket
list is to visit michael jordan statue
and so we put that on the list she
wanted to do a boat ride on the
riverwalk she wanted to go to the
highest
building i think it was a sears building
and to look down and see the whole you
know city and so we did that for three
full days in a lot of restaurants and
i realized that i need something like
this two three times a year you know not
for an entire week or two weeks
maybe five six days if i can afford it
or if i have time but yeah like you need
something like that or you can't really
restore or heal emotionally or you know
mentally from all that's going on yeah
that definitely resonates i house sat
from my parents like for a week maybe a
month ago and just getting out of the
summer heat in phoenix and being able to
get up into the forest area because like
their backyard backs up to the forest
like it was wonderful just to disconnect
for that week need to do that more yeah
like there's a power in nature you know
nature has amazing restoring
qualities and so i think you just have
to know
what you actually need i think john
spencer has to for ours you know
relaxation
restoration
i forgot the other two but you just have
to figure out what do you need for your
own healing whatever that is you know
physical mental spiritual and make time
for that and if you don't you will
regret it eventually and the people
around you will probably not be in your
life up forever if you don't do that all
right so next up we have an interview
with ashley waring who's a co-worker at
boot up this is from episode 110. the
community is huge i mean
staying around people that are
passionate about the same thing that you
are is huge because then when your
passion is kind of like
there's maybe is the opposite and they
can pull you back up again so i think
you know having people that share the
same jam as you is important i also
think it's huge like for me i
love computer science i also love nature
so like getting away from screens and
putting my eyeballs on
things that are not made out of metal or
or plastic and digital that's been huge
for me as far as avoiding burnout i also
feel like trying to find something
different or new
fun to investigate i remember a couple
years ago i was kind of like
i mean i've never been like no about
computer science but i was just telling
eh i'm not feeling the huge gung-ho
passion that i was feeling and i
discovered a new
accessibility tool for students who are
visually impaired
to be able to experience colors and that
kind of sparked my interest again you
know so just finding things that are
interesting but also allowing yourself
to take a freaking break yeah get off
twitter for a month or
however long you know like i mean
sometimes it's okay to just walk away
and it's not an easy thing to come
across especially because i feel like in
our society productivity is you know
godly almost and
breast is
revolutionary you know and so finding
that balance i think is important yeah
i'm still working on that yeah
it's a process
all right so next up is episode 112 and
this is an interview with khalia
braswell honestly the fact that phd
school
the fact that grad school is
there's a lot of flexibility in it has
worked in my favor but each semester i
have to figure out like what works for
me it literally changes each semester so
semesters where i have two courses and
then i'm doing research those are much
lighter and i feel like i can breathe
and then the semesters where i have
three courses that's when it gets really
crazy i really had to start saying no to
stuff like i was already saying no but i
had to like double down on though yeah
the pandemic helped and hurt me i think
like i feel like i missed out on those
experiences where you can go to
conferences and meet new people learn
new things because i don't know about
you but i got conference burnout really
quickly so i was like i don't even want
to go to the conference if it's virtual
anymore again i mentioned sigzi right
and how before phd i was able to meet so
many people and learn like i literally
used to leave conferences like with all
of these ideas well now i'm siloed
because i'm at home you know hit or miss
with going to the virtual conferences
that was a myth but on the plus side
like my classes at temple for whatever
reason are from 5 30 until 8 p.m every
single class there's no option for a
daytime class in either of my programs i
think temple designed it that way for
folks who work yep and so imagine trying
to like be a responsible human and wake
up at 7 or 8 a.m get your day started
but then at 5 30 when you're ready to
like wind down you actually have to be
on zoom and be alert or be in class and
be alert until 8 pm when i first got to
temple
i literally like i was i'm not a morning
person but at that time in that season
of my life i was a morning person i
would get up and i would go work out so
i was on campus by nine and i had worked
out shower eating breakfast by nine and
then by eight i'm like oh man this is
tough so then by friday i'm like oh man
i have no energy to give to anybody and
so it's been trial and error for me but
and i was like this before but i don't
have email apps on my phone anymore
that's actually new for me but i
previously didn't have notifications so
that helps with the burnout because i'm
not constantly like worried about emails
i don't check my email until after i've
had breakfast and my tea for the day and
maybe even worked out so i might not get
to my email until 10 or 11 a.m that has
been helpful because i realized when i
was checking email it would kind of ruin
my morning if i'm like trying to respond
to something that i wasn't anticipating
and i'm not in the headspace therapy has
been helpful because my therapist kind
of calls me out whenever i slack away
from these practices i got to make sure
i work out so costs a lot of money but i
bought a peloton bike i proved to myself
that i would use it first though i got a
cheaper bike
and then i was like okay i'm going to
take the plunge i got to get the bike
and so i you know try to like reach out
to folks and say hey can you do this
right like i wrote before our
conversation today i was like okay i
have to get this in now or it's not
going to happen and
it's an unlearning experience but i've
tried to get much better at resting and
truly resting and
i don't know when it was it might have
been last year where i realized sleep
and resting are two separate things i
think people
miss that because i was like man i need
to get some rest and they're like oh
you're not sleeping well and i was like
that's not what i said i was like nah i
sleep great you know resting means that
i am not thinking about anything like
you know like i'm like laying on the
couch watching tv like it's kind of
being aimless with my body and my brain
literally to rest and i think a lot of
people like me who are overachievers
feel guilty when you're resting it's
like i should be doing something i have
let that go
that's nice it's hard though because
of the systems that exist around us like
capitalism being one you know you feel
like you should be producing and putting
out output but i even think that
mentality helped me step away from
intech because i started this
organization you know ego would keep me
here but i've worn a lot of hats and
i've burned out and i know what that
feels like and i don't like it and so
i'm in a place in my life where i'm like
even work on my therapist actually what
does 80 kalia look like because i give
it's killing me so like what does 80
look like what does it look like if i do
one thing so at the top of the year i'll
just be a phd student and i'm excited
about it so yeah there's so much good
advice in there i like your idea of like
kind of viewing like the semester almost
as like a season like oh well this is a
lighter season or a heavier season in
terms of like load and whatnot but also
just keeping the apps off the phone like
i don't get notifications and like that
makes it easier i try and avoid email
until like 10 or 11 o'clock and like
then i'll check it one more time at the
end of the day like before i'm done
before i start to rest for the day and
yeah because you literally can feel your
anxiety oh yeah like going up when
you're like checking the stuff yep in a
time where you shouldn't be i don't even
sleep with my phone in my bedroom
anymore i charge it in the kitchen or on
my desk and when i'm ready for bed i
walk away from it and i'll figure it out
in the morning and my family hates that
though
like what if something happens i'm like
well call the police don't call me
yeah i
and your comments about rest like i
engage in a process called pomodoro so
like the way i do it is like 50 minutes
of work and then a 10-minute break so
like in our chunks but what i realized
because i'm also very much like i need
to be working and progressing or
evolving and whatever like those 10
minute breaks were like oh i'm going to
practice drums for 10 minutes or oh i'm
going to work on this thing and improve
this thing for 10 minutes but it's not
work and then i realized no i need to
just take those 10 minutes and just do
some yoga like and do that throughout
the day and just shut my brain down
because it's better for me to rest and
the next clip is from episode 114 this
is with james fester there are a couple
of ones that i think are really
important and i think that whether or
not you're if you're a teacher in the
classroom that's a really tough reality
you're a teacher who is teaching
remotely from home that's also brings
its own difficulties as well and so
and a lot of what i'm going to share i'm
pretty sure
other people would share as well but one
thing that i would definitely say is
this is something that i hear all the
time from the mental health provider
that i work with which has been great is
making sure that you're taking time for
yourself that means after a certain and
it's so hard to do totally get it i
totally understand in a world where we
are like connected by the hip to devices
where people expect instantaneous
replies or or you have a certain amount
of hours to get back to me before x y
and z
it can be very difficult but i think
it's important to draw some lines one
thing that's really important for me is
i work from home so literally i never
leave my working environment and that
can be really really difficult sometimes
oh somebody just emailed me i could just
sneak into the other room really quickly
even though it's dinner time and i
really should be present for my family
it's never going to end unless you draw
a line
and you're the only one that can hold
that line so that's the first thing i
would say is you got to set aside time
for what's good for you or what you need
to do if it's family that expect you to
be present after a day work great if
it's that you just really need time to
decompress read a book play a video game
you know go on a hike and outside
whatever it is you need to make sure
you're doing that because eventually if
you don't it will impact the work that
you do and it won't matter how much time
you spend doing the work you will get
worse and worse and the quality will go
down we know that it's the same thing
that i would say to students too go home
and get a good night's sleep don't watch
netflix until 2am because you're going
to come in tired and you will not have
actually given your body what it needs
the other thing that i would say
strategy wise and it's i kind of talked
a little bit more about it but i watched
this there's a great ted talk recently
it was a ted talk that was given by a
soccer referee
and he gave this really great ted talk
where he talked about a very simple way
to kind of
de-stress and detach yourself
who better than a soccer referee to
teach us how not to take things
personally or how to not be affected by
outside stressors right like it seemed
like the perfect way and so what he said
was that he basically says to himself
when somebody comes at him hot when he
encounters a situation that's very
stressful when he feels himself getting
really amped up or sad or whatever it is
and the first question i want to ask is
this really about me is it something
else affecting you is it something else
going on is it really something that i
have done or am i just kind of inserting
myself into your stress and assuming
that i am the reason that can be really
bad then the second thing he says is if
you can't figure that out he says well
maybe this is about me meaning maybe he
is internalizing it he is interpreting
it as now i've done something wrong it's
both sides of the coin where he first
has to figure out is this person coming
at me because of their thing or am i
feeling like this person is coming at me
because of my thing it was really kind
of awesome but it seems really
simplistic but i really came away
thinking to myself like this is really a
great thinking tool that i should be
using every single time i'm feeling
amped up about something is this about
some person's issues or am i putting
this on myself and it has nothing to do
with me yeah i like that i'll definitely
include a link to it and the first part
that you had said of like the value in
disconnecting and like not getting
notifications and whatnot i imagine
there might be some cs educators like
yeah but i'm in cs education it's really
hard to do that we have to be connected
blah blah i recommend they check out
works by like cal newport so like deep
work he also had a book called digital
minimalism and then a more recent book
called world without email he is a cs
professor i believe at georgetown
university and he's constantly preaching
like hey you don't need social media hey
you don't need phone notifications you
don't need to check your email like
every 10 minutes et cetera so people can
go there to dive a little bit deeper
into that that's like an awesome
resource all right so next up we're
going to hear from arya chernik this is
from episode 116. i actually find great
beauty and energy
in that idea of becoming it's funny
because i actually had a professor in
grad school and when we were talking
about derrida he said there are two
kinds of people in the world you know
those for whom deconstruction kind of
instills great anxiety and those for
whom it kind of
inspires
excitement great deep passion and
excitement and yes it's extremely
difficult and you know logistically it's
difficult and it's difficult in terms of
kind of scaffolding learning but when i
see what students create and when i hear
what students say and reflections about
their learning and what they will carry
forward with them that is deeply
energizing to me those are my happiest
moments
as an educator
so
in terms of kind of maintaining
health and well-being certainly digging
into those moments and those feelings my
mom
used to say this is a long time ago one
time i called her i used to have a long
drive from teaching and so i often call
her from the car and one day we were
talking and i was tired and she said
you know even when you're tired even
after you've had a long day you always
sound so happy after you teach and like
that stayed with me all these years
because i am i'm happy when i teach and
then there's running and
reading finding a book that i can't wait
to get back to at the end of the evening
that's hugely restorative for me being
at the ocean
so there are certainly
things that i do to try to maintain
balance and next is a clip from episode
me personally because i had just left
academia so for me doing the research
and the teaching in my mind being more
focused on the research i feel like and
some academics may understand this but
i left academia right because i was
working all the time interestingly
enough i was in a meeting this weekend a
virtual meeting and there were
physicians in the meeting and one
physician was like
explaining how someone on elsewhat works
and he said that this person works like
an academic because they're working all
weekend we're getting emails on the
weekend we're getting emails in the
evening and there's just no stopping and
you know they wanted to care for this
person to make sure this person was
taking time off and recouping and
restoring themselves so
for me leaving academia has been
good for me personally and it's allowing
me the opportunity to do research and
i'm trying very hard to have times that
i work in times that i don't work and if
i do work odd hours i'm you know
scheduling messages so they go out at
normal work time so somebody else
doesn't have to feel like they have to
respond at eight o'clock at night or on
the weekend there's a lot to do
and i try to focus on this
aspect that we're just one tiny spoken a
wheel a very very very huge wheel and
you know if i can help other people on
that same wheel do the work that they're
trying to do and make that high quality
then you know hopefully it's about
sharing the opportunity to
make things better for this next
generation that's coming up yeah i
appreciate that answer having gone to
school with and been the kind of person
who never stops working like i have
learned the value of setting aside a
time to rest and that i had to learn the
hard way so for anyone else who is also
that kind of individual i do recommend
taking a break like even if it's like at
just shut my brain down from working on
this thing and focus on family or
whatever it makes life a lot better yeah
exactly so we've also taken up hiking
during the pandemic one of the ways that
we've been trying to my husband and i
have been trying to
get exercise while also
not being able to go to the gym anymore
is or not going to the gym i guess it is
open now but just to go out and enjoy
nature and go hiking take the dogs all
that good stuff yeah being in phoenix we
actually have quite a bit of hiking
opportunities around it's it's pretty
nice so if anyone has mountains nearby
or hills i highly recommend hiking as
well
yeah definitely and next we have a
conversation with sarah lev this is from
episode 122 and we actually talk about a
whole lot more like meditation and yoga
as well as general mindfulness and
wellness so make sure you check out the
rest of the episode for even more well
it was really about like having my own
designated space for my classroom which
was like basically i have a small house
in the hallway at a desk closing my
laptop and like getting outside i would
go outside for lunches i would take my
son on bike rides during the lunch
trying to do something different to sort
of make that space different for myself
you know i saw a funny video that was
like somebody like they're sitting on
their couch end of the work day they
close their laptop and they move over a
foot and they open their laptop and
they're like it's the weekend you know
so
it's but it's kind of like that was kind
of like having a designated space i
think to help but also like i was saying
my mornings
of listening to a positive podcast doing
the dishes exercising outside like all
of those things to mark beginning of
work pre-work and then post-work i also
am lucky i live in los angeles we live
near the ocean we can drive to the beach
and see the beach and that was really
really helpful being outside really
helps me yeah you joke about moving over
a foot like that
it actually sounds like one of the
things that i did to separate my
like work time from my leisure time on
the same device like so right now i have
a monitor directly in front of me and
then one angled to my right but what i
would do when i was switching to leisure
is i would change that orientation so
now it's on the left of that angled
monitor
and like that little thing it made a
huge difference it was like okay no i'm
in leisure time i'm not in work time
right now even though it's all the same
hardware i'm using
yeah that's great the other thing i
think i heard you know i would always
like get dressed and like put shoes on
right like i think something i heard
that not everybody did right like i
would get dressed as if i was going to
work and then after work it would be
like okay my shoes are off and now i'm
you know in my sweats or whatever so i
think i didn't thought about that but i
think that was another thing that i did
that helped me feel like i was working
and not working next up we have from
episode 124 an interview with kimberly
scott you know it's funny and i read
your question like you know what do you
do in order to
avoid burning at first i was like oh
does he want me to talk about you know
working out or you know but then to me
that's what so many of us do you know to
try to balance ourselves i mean i have i
think pretty
interesting pastimes but at least most
people say like i do aerial yoga my wife
does yeah we have an aerial yoga rig
like literally underneath me
oh my goodness i know whose house i'm
visiting
oh i love aerial yoga because you know
it engages my body in ways that is a
different rhythm than my normal sitting
in a chair and being in a meeting but i
think along those same lines i think
about how to engage my mind and my
spirit and i return to art so i become
also one of my big hobbies at least now
is photography and you think about it
you know photography there is a lot of
computational thinking and so
some of my side gigs are
photo shoots i'm going on a photo shoot
tomorrow to do wild horses my
professional life still bleeds into that
because i'm conscious about not so much
the horses but when i'm photographing
people who's in the shot how are we
representing their being you know let me
engage them in the process so is this
really the story you want told in this
way here are my ideas but lord knows my
ideas may not be congruent to what you
want so
that's the only thing i wanted to say
because i was chuckling when i was
thinking about how to address that but i
think it still reflects my professional
self even though it's a different rhythm
and the following clip is from episode
i've balanced or i've reached kind of
like optimal boundary setting something
changes that resets and then i have to
go back and do it again so
i started this new job at bank street
which has been exhilarating and really
exciting but also really challenging
anytime you teach something new for the
first time just getting your head around
the course the content the curriculum
like the directions that you're going
it's overwhelming so it's like wait how
am i living my first year teaching again
but i'm not living my first year
teaching again i think i have many more
boundaries from that time but now i do
actually have a separate space i'm lucky
and not having the situation that you
mentioned like i can come to an office i
can work here and then i can go home and
sort of make a mental separation between
those two locations can help and then
just knowing like i try to plan
activities and things that are outside
so that i purposely give myself a time
to quit and you know those help having
people accountability partners like you
know in my family or my boyfriend to say
did you eat today like kind of those
reminders was like you're in this grind
but you're not too firmly in it and it's
really tough but i think it's also that
feeling of like i will come out the
other side of this year and then
hopefully come away with even more
strategies for that balance in the next
year when things are a little bit more
stable right the next clip is from
episode 129 with addison littleholt
luckily very luckily the content that i
focus on in my classroom it's
continually changing because of what cs
is things like ai and machine learning
but i'm covering that i was covering
this a few years ago it's different now
and i've expanded that unit to include
things like unintended bias in
artificial intelligence and talking
about
why why does that exist and i have the
students create their own biased models
by accident and then show them how why
they did that and then fix it and they
all fix it immediately they know exactly
how to do it they get somebody else in
take a new picture
and what i think keeps me from burning
out is seeing those moments of like whoa
aha moments beyond like
but
i
also really like
stuff that i teach i'm really they
always say like oh passionate teacher i
just find the content that i cover to be
fun it's fun for me to do and same with
music i love playing music and
i have fun playing music i might be able
to teach it to be honest but i wouldn't
keep doing it in my off time if i didn't
truly enjoy the stuff that i do in the
classroom so i think that keeps me from
burning out i'm lucky there's no doubt
about it i'm very lucky to be able to
say that and the next clip is from
episode 131 this is from ruth farmer
it's really hard i mean the burnout is
real one thing though is i just get so
much energy from
seeing the successes of the students and
seeing the notes come back to us and you
know we recently helped one of our
grantees we had given her a grant to
help her finish college she graduated
and we helped her negotiate her first
job offer because low-income students
can't turn to their parent or their
family member and say like is this a
good offer at microsoft or amazon and so
we helped the student negotiate her
starting salary from seventy five
thousand to a hundred and four thousand
dollars nice she is going to make
roughly 400 000
more over the next decade than she would
have and it's like life-changing for her
to start at that level and
it positions her as having a high value
because if you get paid less in your
first job than your peers you're
perceived to be worth less because you
cost less and so negotiating that first
job is one of the most important things
you can do and how you launch into the
field so those types of wins you know
are happening pretty frequently for us
these days so our model is we're going
to invest in these students they're
going to graduate and they're going to
get great jobs and they're going to come
back as a volunteer and ultimately as an
investor later we had our first student
come back to reinvest in the fund 10
months after we started we funded her in
february of 2020 she graduated in june
she came back and invested in august and
continues
to support us and so it's like this
virtuous circle we call it you know
investment engagement reinvestment that
is going to power this long term and
yeah i'm really excited about that piece
of the model because we have these
alumni relationships with the students
so we find out like where are you
working and we congratulate them when
they graduate and they come back and
support other students like them next up
we have a clip from an interview with
maya israel this is from episode 133
i'll start by saying i feel like this is
privileged work to be able to
work in academia and ask the questions
that i think are really important and
engage with folks who also find those
questions important to me it just feels
like a privilege to get to do this kind
of work at the same time like you said
it's a whole lot of privileged work so
it's a lot of work and so i feel like
you have to protect your time and you
have to say no sometimes which is
difficult to do especially in education
when you're committed to systems change
and students with disabilities and so i
don't know that i have a great answer
for it except for that i try to balance
and i don't always do a very good job of
it but you know there are a few things
i'm learning from my colleagues like i
try really hard to not have meetings on
wednesdays even though we're speaking on
a wednesday
you know i was able to spend this
morning just doing work and not having a
ton of meetings and so i was able to
actually like sit in the work and
sometimes what ends up happening is that
we're so busy that we don't actually get
to do the work or just running from
meeting to meeting and so carving out
those times and protecting those times
is really important at the same time
also recognizing that there is life
outside of work is also really important
and so what i try to do is you know make
sure that my entire identity isn't tied
to being a researcher faculty member so
i read a lot of fiction things that have
nothing to do with computer science you
know i try to get outside you know all
of those things that we know we have to
do to kind of maintain that balance it
depends on the day and the week how well
i do with it yeah i also have like a
deep work
practice in that i try and schedule
about two hours at the start of the day
before i have meetings before i check
email where i'm just engaged and work on
something whatever it is that's like a
big upcoming project and that has been
very helpful the idea of like having an
identity outside of work is something
that i've had to work through with a
therapist like to try and reconcile that
and like now
i'm like sharing my
music and video game identities much
more publicly and i've never done that
before and that is like part of
a process for me for like reconciling
all these identities and just being more
open and be like hey i don't just do
computer science i also do these other
things and they're part of what makes me
who i am yeah there's like an entire
space on instagram that is filled with
people who are bookish people and so
it's like an amazing thing to connect
with people on something that has
nothing to do with computer science and
it's like completely nerdy bookish
conversations where you're like i just
read this amazing book who else has read
it and they're like this is great and
what a gorgeous book cover and so
i think it's really healthy to do that
and it's also good to model that for
our students too who are coming in and
they're you know part of the grind and
they're trying to get through their
qualifying exams and to publish all the
papers and to get their cvs ready so
that they can be competitive and so it's
really important to recognize that
that's not the only part of your life
when you look back on your life nobody
says i don't think i wish i'd worked
more
right so the work's important the work
is privileged but it's not the only
thing that makes up your life yeah my
first therapist had experience working
in hospice and that was one of the
things that she had said to me and it
did not really connect with me
when i heard it at the time this was
during undergrad and when i was like
really getting started with career etc
and i was so driven but now i'm like oh
i get what she was saying many years ago
yeah and those people are amazing folks
who do that work talk about difficult
but necessary and absolutely critical
work for people and their families so
yeah i could see they definitely need to
disengage from that because it's the
emotional toll of that is something next
up we have a clip from bob irving this
is from episode 135 that's interesting
you know because i guess to go back to
what we were talking about before it's
not just our students who've gone
through this global pandemic and are you
know carrying the scars but those of us
who i think society realized are front
line workers now i mean a lot of people
and i'm sure you've talked to them
they're scarred they've been caught
between you know all these conflicting
demands and political and you know
whatever you know
expectations and health fears and all
that kind of stuff so i'll tell you one
thing that i don't think
is really that helpful is to provide
wellness programs at your school and
i've seen a lot of that we're just going
to teach you to do mindfulness and i'm a
big believer in meditation and
mindfulness big believer in it but i
don't think that's the way you handle
people who are experiencing this kind of
burnout i really don't yeah i don't know
what the answer is but again it's a
systemic thing where
we have you know the factories already
set up we're trying to jam people
through this it's so inhumane in a way
the whole system is inhumane i mean
fortunately it's staffed with people
like you and me that have gone into
teaching we're not doing it to get rich
we're doing it because we love learning
and we love we like kids and we want to
make the world a better place right
that's really tricky and especially in
our field in the cs field how are you
going to attract teachers when they're
not going to get two or three times what
they would get paid teaching plus have
all of these other you know duties and
responsibilities and expectations i
don't know i think it you know requires
systemic reform i don't know how that's
going to happen i'll be honest are there
any other
approaches or tools like meditation that
you use to
help yourself
yeah there is
music now that's me that's my personal
thing but i always tell people i have a
musical alter ego his name is chicago
bob and he plays blues guitar you know
this is my
passion musically is learning about this
kind of music and learning to play it so
during the pandemic i actually set up a
weekly facebook live event
where i played music half an hour i
called it the southern comfort sessions
or you know
i said make of it what you will but it
was a way for me to express that and
connect with people i mean it's a
personal note it was
amazing for me because i was able to
keep in touch with family and friends
former students even and you know
friends that i hadn't seen in decades
you know
and we were able to connect through this
you know live music in the midst of this
craziness that we're all experiencing
and i you know i told somebody the other
day to me that's like oxygen can a
school facilitate it for their teachers
to follow passions didn't google used to
have their 25 percent you spent a
quarter of your time just following
something that you're really jazzed
about now we're talking crazy i'm sure
but i mean if you really want to see
people make it and people are leaving
the profession
in droves yeah they are burning out and
this next clip is from episode 139 this
is with mike cackley for me
it's just trying to balance i guess we
know as i said earlier adult scl has
come before you can teach it to students
and so one of the things i did this year
the first time i've taught somewhere
close by where i live not a half hour
drive and so i bought a bike and i'm
riding my bike to school every day and
that alone makes sure i exercise because
once i sit on the couch at home i'm
highly unlikely to get up but i found
every morning like that physical
activity gets me going gets me ready for
the day and then on the way home i have
that stress for the day i just kind of
release it in my bike ride and so that's
been a huge
savior for me this year if it wasn't for
my bike ride i think i would lose my
mind yeah i like that idea i have also
been trying to
do that where i will do like strength
based workout in the morning before i
start my day and then to kind of close
off my day and
use it as a signal of saying hey you're
done working on this thing i'll do some
kind of cardio in the afternoon and that
has been nice having those like start
and end points for me it's so important
because it's so easy to neglect it and
then lots of bad habits for me eating
habits all those things next up from
episode 142 is charlotte dungan it's
hard if you're at that point right now
you might look around and think it's not
worth it and it's okay if it isn't it's
okay to protect yourself to take care of
yourself i think it's really important
to take time and break in the summer to
actually recharge and not do
every pd offered every you know summer
camp available to you it's not worth the
little bit of money to take on that
second job if you can't come back
restored and refreshed i think we need
to do a better job as a society in
supporting educators and recognizing
what enormously hard work they have been
doing over the last several years and
how many people are leaving the field
especially really thoughtful
dedicated educators who just can't do it
anymore and we can't continue to ask
teachers to give up their planning
periods to cover for other teachers
teaching is the only field i know where
you have to bring your own whiteboard
markers to the classroom
to teach a class and so unless we fix
things systemically we're not going to
see
the best educators you know that they
may choose to leave because it's too
hard and i don't think that's wrong
but if you want to stay the best way to
do it is
to continue to fall in love with your
students and your subject seek out a
great administration it's okay to go to
the district next door and and take care
of yourself maybe that isn't the answer
i was supposed to say but that's what i
feel is true is like until we as a
society take care of educators we're
going to continue to see turnover yeah
are there systems that you put into
place to try and help yourself like i
really appreciate and that last point
resonates with me like i was in a
district where it wasn't great and then
i moved to a different district and it
was awesome so like just having a change
of admin and environments can have a
profound impact on like my own personal
well-being and whatnot oh yeah i do
think it's important to continue
learning independently i think in the
classroom though we can also set the bar
a little bit lower i think formative
assessment is really useful as a tool to
take the pressure off for you personally
as a teacher to have like a quick
reflection piece where you can see where
they're at but you don't have to grade
every darn thing
i think using some tools like peer
assessment in assessment of projects and
having like really clear rubrics that
students can self-evaluate and having
like clear
end points where a project is showcased
for example and if you meet all the
requirements of the showcase well then
you know what your grade is and taking
some of that pressure off yourself it's
also okay to set some really clear
boundaries like i don't work on sundays
i don't grade i don't i go mountain
biking that's what i do and
having those boundaries does not make
you a bad teacher even if it means you
didn't finish a certain thing that you
were supposed to get done
so focusing on what matters i have the
like two by two in my brain of like make
four squares important and urgent and
really you only need to do the things
that are important and urgent
and the other things can wait and that
as long as your students are in the
important plus urgent bucket the fact
that you graded something or didn't this
weekend probably doesn't matter i really
appreciate that response i have heard
similar things than some sessions before
and people have said that they felt like
they needed the permission to do that
they needed to hear that from somebody
so hopefully there's a listener out
there who listened to that and it's like
yes this just resonated really well with
them try to remain in the work it's what
you're doing is really important you
matter to kids you know you're giving
them opportunities they might not
otherwise have but you don't have to
sacrifice yourself and the next clip is
from episode 144 with carter zenki i
think there's always like a new project
to tackle with any course i think
there's something you can always do to
improve it and talking with educators i
always know that they're i want to do
this i want to do that and i think
that's an amazing attitude to have and i
think it's one that sustains people i've
also tried to
learn to say no to some things and try
to focus some stuff i'm not going to
make that improvement this fall i'm not
going to do this or that and i'm inside
going to focus on this other thing
because it'll more align with these
values i want the course to have in this
case and that's both freed up some time
for me and i think also allow me to
focus more and make something better
when i decide to make a change the next
clip is from episode 146 with ben owens
i won't kid
anyone listening that this is indeed
hard work what i found was by doing
that hard but different work that was
more collaborative more inviting more
inclusive was
so much more rewarding that it was worth
it it was worth the time investment and
if i had worked
half the number of hours that i did but
was just sort of going through the
motions and knowing that it wasn't
having the impact that would have burned
me out within my heart because
what was motivational and this goes back
again to i think what daniel pique talks
about is that purpose mastery and
autonomy i knew that at my school there
was a clear living mission that provided
purpose that was consistent and in
alignment with what i wanted to do to
make a difference in the world for the
time that i'm on this planet that was my
way to channel that and affect it with
the students i was working with i had
the ability to master things by knowing
that i could collaborate with colleagues
knowing that we could share ideas so
that we could constantly get better and
continue to become better teachers and
master that approach and then i had the
autonomy that didn't mean that i could
just close my door and do my own thing
that i had the collective autonomy where
again i our ideas mattered what i could
bring as a passionate educator to my
colleagues and they could listen and
they could give me feedback was
respected so i could leave
at the end of the day knowing that with
that purpose mastery and autonomy i'm
doing good work that is in alignment to
my core values as a person and i think
that ultimately is if you were in that
place which i was fortunate enough to be
and i would also say i'm pretty
fortunate enough to be and since i run
my own apartment nonprofit i'm i guess
i'm my own boss so i just make sure that
ethos exists in this community as well
that you can leave with a smile on your
face and knowing that you've done good
work that day now i think as you're
alluding to you can also take that to
the extreme and become just insane and
my wife would probably argue that
i do that on occasion
it is imperative that you block time and
i've i've gotten good at practices like
just i'm going to block a day and that's
my day and it's not the weekend it's my
day where i still may be doing work but
it's work that i get to dictate i get to
define i get to sit down and read or
just do something that's totally
different and is not dictated by a
meeting or whatever and then you know
i'm also shut down at four o'clock every
day i'm done unless there's a specific
thing that others expect me to be in for
whatever reason but i'm pretty stingy
about what those can be that's the time
where my wife and i and our dog and cats
can enjoy being together we can go walk
in the woods i can go on a run or i can
do whatever so i think it's having that
level of discipline to know that you
know when you're doing work you're going
to go all in but you're also going to
ensure that you protect um as well so
that you're honoring yourself and don't
treat that as being selfish but treat
that as part of the entire system to
stay healthy in all the different ways
that are necessary yeah i really
appreciate that response the work that i
do literally will never end in terms of
like the series of things that i can
always work on so like having those firm
here's when i start working here's when
i stop working that definitely helps now
i say that with full recognition of i
started at 5 a.m this morning because i
woke up at four and like it's just like
one of those days where all right it's
definitely gonna be like a 10 hour day
but in general i try and do eight to
four get my eight hours and
we all have those days but
yeah i think as long as we
do it in moderation then uh
they're honoring self and the final clip
from episode 149 is with nepean nabuya
yeah oh it's a daily task for me i'm not
even going live
i am having to redefine it every day
holistically for me is taking care of my
mind body spirit and soul every day so
putting my phone on do not disturb at a
certain time right making sure that i'm
focusing
on myself from this time to this time so
my do not disturb hits
from 10 p.m to 10 a.m so you cannot get
in touch with me after 10 p.m at night
or before 10 a.m the next morning so and
i could be doing absolutely nothing
right now that's just me prioritizing
myself and me setting boundaries because
social media is addictive right i can
scroll instagram for hours right that's
one of my approaches also you know just
how am i feeding myself throughout the
day so i'm an engineer i've been an
engineer almost seven years and
i can easily get overwhelmed like i am
always super anxious when i'm doing like
code changes or i'm on call when we
doing escalations i'm just always really
anxious like oh what if i take this
server down or oh what if this you know
the wrong semicolon here will completely
just for this code i'm always on edge
and i feel like it may never go away i
feel like that paranoia is just a part
of being an engineer so making sure i'm
listening to something that's also
calming me throughout the day so i as
well listen to podcasts i'm listening to
inspirational music or listening to you
know an interview or one of my favorite
artists or actresses or actors or
something like that and then also being
mindful that working from home now that
i need to get out of this space at some
point in my day i was working from home
prior to the pandemic so all in all i've
been working from home maybe six years
now so it is a long time and what i
first realized was you work longer hours
working from home so i have friends who
are just like oh i want to work from
home position and i'm like it's not
always cracked out to be like i don't
know if anybody else is saying that work
from home but for me somebody who likes
to be out likes to be doing things and
social
being confined to your house and walking
you know every day is not like my ideal
you know life i had to you know get
invested in a co-working space so you
know if i feel like i need to change the
scenery i can go 10 minutes down the
street to a co-working space go to a
coffee shop but being able to get
outside of these four walls now that i'm
confined to these four walls to work is
a really big deal for me
so if i do decide to stay home working
one day that i'm leaving i'm going to
the gym
i'm you know going to run some errands i
don't want to do food delivery one day i
need to get out i'm one of those people
where i thrive from sunlight so i need
to make sure that you know my body is
getting in that vitamin d you know every
day if possible so those are just
different things i do in drinking water
i love water i am not somebody that
drinks a lot of juice i don't drink soda
so keeping myself hydrated taking
vitamins juicing smoothies that is my
holistic approach and wellness um that i
also like to tell the girls as well
because if i don't feel well that
translates into my work as well yeah and
the connection between just like mind
and body i don't think people realize
that and focus on that enough like the
reason why i work out so much and the
reason why i drink smoothies as my
breakfast and lunch it's like vegetables
and fruit and whatnot and the reason why
i do that is because it has a profound
impact on my mental health and as
somebody who suffers from like chronic
depression i need to make sure i monitor
that because otherwise it could spiral
out of control so try and avoid that
i know and i was just having a
conversation with a friend and she told
me she doesn't take vitamins and i was
like what i was like you need to take
why don't you take vitamins i feel when
i have like i've ran out of vitamins and
i have not started taking i know exactly
when i'm not taking vitamins like i feel
it immediately
so it's just little things and
i miss the in-person connection but then
i'm also finding
how to adapt to this to where i don't
feel like i need to be back into an
office to thrive as well so like you
said drinking my smoothies you know i
was just telling you know some friends
we all skate roller skate like let's go
roller skating at piedmont park this
weekend you know just different things
like that it's my way to decompress and
then also a way for me to still enjoy
myself and not get tiresome because like
i said earlier working from home you
work much longer than what's expected
and don't even realize it right do you
have advice for
people who
might find it difficult to kind of
separate their leisure space from their
workspace like if they're in a small
like studio or one bedroom apartment and
like their office is like literally in
their living room basically that was me
i just bought a house last year and
prior to that i was in a 750 square foot
one bedroom apartment outside of my
bedroom was my kitchen living room
office workout room all in one space and
i knew then when i started working from
home i was just like yeah
i need more space advice take breaks if
you can't do like a long extended period
of time just take like 10-15 minutes i
made a point i think back to when i was
in my apartment i would set times where
i would go check my mailbox you know
even if all of my bills are e-bills
right i get everything to my email but
just walking down to my mailbox and then
going to see the leasing agent you know
we me and her really good friends so
just going to talk to her i used to live
in an area where we had lots of trails
and the trails were so long so just
going and walking 10 minutes down the
trail and coming back but just setting
and planning out your day worked for me
and i have to give all the credit to my
friend karen rest in peace karen
definitely was a avid planner i have
never met somebody who had so many
planners and notebooks and stationery
and before she passed away i said sis we
really need to get your stationery
business up and going because she would
always send me links like you need this
planner i love this planner and i just
felt like and it's still not organized
but i felt my life was a little bit
organized a little better and i found
myself being able to keep myself
accountable you know when i saw
something written down versus oh shoot i
forgot to take that two-minute walk
today or i forgot to go to the mailbox i
see it written down so i know okay i
need to stick to this because it's
physically written and i can see it so
i'm holding myself more accountable for
it yeah time blocking and planning and
whatnot that has definitely helped me
out my first therapist that i went to
helped me go through that process and it
made me realize oh i literally don't
have a single moment to myself like this
is like during my undergrad when it was
like i start teaching at like 7 00 am
and then i go until class until like
seven or eight p.m at night and there's
like no breaks in between so oh no no i
definitely learned the hard way where i
would start working at nine and then
next thing you know i look at the window
and the sun is setting it's 7 30 8
o'clock and i haven't took lunch
i got a whole bunch of snacks at my desk
i gained a whole bunch of weight from
there and i was just like yeah no i
can't do this yeah it's like a gift and
a curse it's great that able to sit and
focus for that extended period of time
because i able to do that as well but
it's also
so detrimental to your health when you
don't take those breaks like when i was
painting the house many years ago when
we got it like i literally just like
didn't even think about food and forgot
about it and was like oh wow i've been
painting for like 15 hours today i need
to stop and like actually take a break
and probably open up windows
it was all trial and error for me was it
thing that i tried that didn't work
absolutely the committing to going to
the gym every day was the hardest thing
that i ever put down in my planner so i
had to start setting realistic goals
and then once i set those realistic
goals then pushed a little further past
that so
instead of saying i'm gonna go to the
gym you know every day this week i was
just like i'm gonna go to the gym for 15
minutes let me set like a
mini expectation you know just to see if
i meet that okay i did 15 minutes okay
now i'm going to work out for 30 minutes
on thursday so being able to set
small milestones for yourself and i
think it's the same way with any goal we
said in life it's great you know we have
this big picture
but how i goal set is just like okay i
know i want to you know get my phd but
what are the steps i need to do to get
there first before i ultimately reach
that goal i need to make sure i have
work-life balance if i don't have
work-life balance now i mean damn she's
not gonna have it you know pursuing a
phd that's just how my mind operates
like i see the end goal but i know
there's obstacles in between that i need
to deal with first before i get to that
yeah that's smart yeah work life on
balance is definitely something to get a
hold of before you start phd
here hence why i have not gotten it yet
and with that that concludes the
supercut from this prior year of guests
responding to the question about how to
prevent burnout there are two more
episodes just like this that compile all
the clips from other guests in the first
that in the show notes at
jaredoleary.com so make sure you check
that out if you haven't listened to
those episodes this field is difficult i
hope this helps you out and i hope you
consider sharing with other educators in
the field so that way we can learn some
strategies about how to prevent burnout
stay tuned next week for another episode
until then i hope you're all staying
safe and are having a wonderful week
Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode
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Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter