Supercharge Your Middle School CS Classroom with Bob Irving

In this interview with Bob Irving, we discuss Bob’s book (Hard Fun: Supercharge your middle school computer science classroom with project-based, hands-on, just-in-time learning!), learning CS through Minecraft, the impact of COVID on Bob’s teaching, the importance of interest-driven learning, the future of CS education, and much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    csk8 podcast my name is jared o'leary

    each week of this podcast is either an

    interview with a guest or multiple

    guests or a solo episode where i unpack

    some scholarship in relation to computer

    science education in this week's

    particular episode i'm interviewing a

    repeat guest bob irving in this new

    interview with bob we discuss bob's book

    which is titled hard fun supercharger

    middle school computer science classroom

    with project-based hands-on just-in-time

    learning we discuss learning computer

    science through minecraft the impact of

    covit on bob's teaching the importance

    of interest-driven learning the future

    of computer science education and so

    much more as always you can find show

    notes at jared o'leary.com or by

    clicking the link in the app that you're

    listening to this on for example you can

    find some of the podcasts that were

    mentioned like bob's previous interview

    and then the interview with laura

    decenza linked to in the show notes

    you'll also find hundreds if not

    thousands of free computer science

    education resources on my website as

    well as on the website for the nonprofit

    that i work for boot up pd which powers

    this podcast and if you're on my website

    you'll also find a bunch of gaming and

    drumming content because i stream and

    create content in those areas too in my

    leisure so if those interests you check

    it out but with all that being said we

    will now begin with an introduction by

    bob okay hi everybody my name is bob

    irving and i teach middle school

    computer science and i teach in an

    independent school in charleston south

    carolina called the porter goud school

    and i've been there this is my eighth

    year and i did it for about 11 years

    before that in another independent

    school

    and this is believe it or not my last

    year full-time in-person teaching so

    i'll be moving on to whatever the next

    phase is after this

    i did finally finally after two years of

    teaching remotely and a pandemic and

    everything else that happened i finally

    finished my book which has come out and

    i was on the show jared had me very

    graciously a couple of years ago and he

    said well when you get your book out you

    know let me know we'll talk about it so

    it's out if this were on video you could

    see me holding it up to the camera

    i look at it it's only really about 61

    pages it's surprising that it took me

    all that time to finish it but anyway i

    wanted to get it out and i wanted to

    kind of put down in writing what it is

    that i do every day how my classes work

    why i do what i do and just kind of

    focus on some of the highlights and the

    platforms that i use so it's eminently

    practical i mean it's made for people in

    this space whether you know you run a

    homeschool or you're a computer science

    middle school teacher or you run a camp

    or anywhere in that space you're trying

    to help kids to code and i'm not saying

    this is the only way to do anything but

    i do believe that it's practical enough

    that anybody reading this could pick up

    something that they could use tomorrow

    in their class or their camp and so

    that's kind of what i put down so it's

    called hard fun and the subtitle is

    supercharged your middle school computer

    science classroom with project based

    hands-on just-in-time learning that's a

    mouthful but anyway so if you know any

    of the the backstory and the people in

    this field and you know hard fun is

    something that i stole from seymour

    papert one of my heroes who i consider

    kind of the godfather of kids in coding

    even back in the 70s at mit somebody

    that worked with him said he didn't

    actually come up with that it was one of

    his students

    who did that which i thought now that's

    interesting because i guess seymour had

    asked him you know is this fun and one

    of the students said it's hard fun and i

    thought

    that nails that's become my mantra every

    quarter i have my kids quarterly day one

    we have the intro to the class and how

    things run and i always promised them i

    said this is going to be hard fun and i

    say it's fun because you'll be doing

    cool engaging projects that you love and

    you're going to really want to do them

    and it's hard because it's not always

    easy to get things working the way you

    want them to work but i can guarantee

    you're going to have that combination of

    both of them i guess in a word that's

    what it's about so the book is available

    on amazon print

    e-book and also you can read it for free

    if you have kindle unlimited i just

    wrote about what i do and people ask me

    was it hard to write the book and i

    always say no because it just kind of

    wrote itself honestly because it's just

    what i do every day in my class it's how

    my classes run what i think what the

    kids say you know what i'm looking for

    when i choose platforms how i present

    material what i expect how i assess

    things i didn't have to do any research

    at all which is kind of nice i just

    talked about how it works and tried to

    organize it in a fashion that would be

    accessible to other people so it's kind

    of exciting to finally

    push it over the finish line and have it

    out there and yeah so hard fun by bob

    irving and it really is even though that

    the subtitle is a mouthful that

    supercharging your middle school

    computer science classroom with project

    based hands-on just-in-time learning i

    really think that exactly encapsulates

    what the book is about and what are the

    titles of each of the chapters well i've

    kind of broken it down i didn't make the

    titles quite as long so i you know i

    have intro and pedagogy and then i've

    just done it kind of mostly by the

    platforms that i use

    just the back story i teach grades five

    through eight that's what our middle

    school is at our school and every

    student in middle school must take

    computer science for one quarter which

    means

    that you get the entire range of student

    interest and ability i think that's

    really a good thing because everybody

    gets exposed to it but it also means you

    know you have to pitch it a little bit

    differently than you might if it were an

    elective

    because if you do an elective you have

    you know the nerd herd is always going

    to sign up for everything and then

    you're going to go in a different

    direction but you know i have kids that

    don't know how to turn a computer on an

    actual desktop computer they don't know

    how to turn it off they don't know how

    to log in they don't know how to use a

    keyboard and a mouse things like that i

    mean it's they're tablet kits or phone

    kits so it's kind of new to them so

    anyway also i have my intro and

    pedagogies chapter one then i have a

    chapter on scratch one on robotics one

    on the raspberry pi one on physical

    computing minecraft

    sonic pi codu processing from blocks to

    text how do you make that shift what i

    call my thon which is

    minecraft and python

    and then the last one is called voice

    and choice which kind of wraps up the

    approach which is i am a big believer in

    giving students as much voice and choice

    in

    what they do as possible so those are

    the chapter headings not real exciting

    but that's what they are let's dive deep

    into like a chapter if you wouldn't mind

    to give like a sense of what someone

    might expect to learn from a particular

    topic i'll talk about minecraft that's

    kind of my current fave so i talk a

    little bit about how i got introduced to

    minecraft and you know it's such an

    institution now i started back in

    two years i think after it started and i

    kept hearing my students talk about this

    game you know this minecraft minecraft

    minecraft all the time this weird

    language about finding diamonds and you

    know i'd say what's this minecraft thing

    you know they were all excited i mean

    the weird thing that i noticed when i

    asked a question like what's this

    minecraft thing is you to be boys girls

    you know gender didn't matter color

    didn't matter you know you could have

    kids who are like the super nerdy types

    versus the super you know athletic types

    everybody and i thought i owe it to

    myself to figure out what is this

    minecraft thing you know i talk about

    downloading it and looking at it and

    thinking what the heck is going on here

    we are in a 21st century with these

    eight big blocky graphics

    right

    i couldn't i

    didn't get it i thought you know you've

    got 3d photo realistic games available

    and these kids are going crazy over this

    block you know kind of ugly

    game so i thought that's really

    something

    what is going on here and so you know i

    just kind of detailed my

    journey and trying to learn more about

    it so i

    enlisted the help of some experts namely

    you know my students you know and i said

    you know help me with this you know walk

    me through it and i had kids volunteer

    to stay after school to help mr irving

    you know navigate his way around you

    know and it was touching in a way

    because there were kids that you know

    they weren't always at the top of the

    class academically but boy they knew

    their way around minecraft and the other

    cool thing that i found was that they

    were so willing to help and so patient

    with me

    because i you know i wasn't getting it

    you know i mean until you learn you know

    wasd and the mouse and you know jumping

    and crouching and breaking and all you

    know all that kind of stuff it's a

    little obtuse yep and there were super

    no no no it's not like that you know

    [Laughter]

    and they could have been a lot meaner

    than they were but they're very patient

    with me and helping with it but anyway

    so then i thought what i'm going to do

    is i'm going to have a minecraft club so

    i detail all this in the chapter and so

    i asked for volunteers to beta test this

    so i got this edition some of the your

    listeners will remember

    minecraft.edu which was a kind of a mod

    of java based minecraft back in the day

    that they made for schools and for

    teachers and so i got minecraft.edu and

    got it installed on our school server

    and i bought some licenses and i said i

    just need you know a few beta testers to

    see if this is really going to work and

    you know instantly i you know 15 or 20

    kids

    volunteer and i said well now the tricky

    part is you're going to miss recess

    because that's the only time in the day

    when we can do it so after lunch i got

    each other to get into the room

    yeah happily giving up recess yeah and

    playing i had this aha moment i thought

    if i can't figure out a way to harness

    this

    energy and enthusiasm in my classes and

    i need to have my teaching license

    revoked because

    i had never

    seen anything like this

    there's something magical i i don't know

    how to explain it you know so as a

    computer science teacher i started

    thinking oh so okay how can we do coding

    in minecraft and so the chapter is kind

    of my

    how that worked and all the different

    things that i went through to kind of

    figure out how to use this well you know

    here it is whatever almost 10 years

    later still using it minecraft has

    evolved minecraft.edu is no more it got

    bought by microsoft and i remember the

    day i saw that headline and i really

    thought my heart was going to stop you

    know it says you know microsoft buys

    minecraft for 2.5 billion or whatever it

    was but the thing that got my attention

    was microsoft bought it and back in that

    day that was like hearing you know like

    the death star had just you know hovered

    over your planet you know it was this is

    that's

    i think microsoft actually now is a very

    forward-looking company yeah and really

    with it and i think this

    proves it but

    at the time i thought oh

    god they're going to suck all the life

    out of it they're going to try to

    monetize it they're going to make it you

    know

    it's going to destroy this indie game

    you know that we've all come to know and

    love and fortunately it turns out that's

    not the case so i had some good

    discussions at conferences with some of

    the microsoft people and they told me

    they were under strict instructions they

    said do not mess with the dna of

    minecraft and they were all given you

    know

    i can't remember what the book was it

    might have been notch's book or somebody

    about the beginnings of minecraft and

    what it was and they were told don't

    fool with that because that's the black

    box we know that that is working all the

    time so that made me feel a little bit

    better and i think it has borne out to

    me anyway that now with education

    edition they've got a good plan you know

    so i've been able to use education

    addition to my classes ever since and so

    i talk a lot about you know how we do

    that they incorporated coding with their

    make code environment

    so you get some block based coding with

    the agent there's this little robot dude

    you know you can code him to move around

    and build and all kinds of cool stuff

    like that

    it's very computer sciencey they

    actually added python which i was really

    excited about because at first i only

    offered javascript and i thought i

    actually you know

    i said to anybody who was listening at

    microsoft they said please not

    javascript is the first text-based

    language i get that it's important and

    it's everywhere but

    please and we do python yeah i don't

    think it was because i was asking but

    you know

    i think in the last two years they did

    incorporate python which i was very

    happy to see yeah so i just talked about

    that and the other thing that i touch on

    briefly here in the chapter is the whole

    thing of command block it's text-based

    code

    in the 3d world of minecraft and to me

    that's the coolness which is

    you know you can move around

    your build and look at it from every

    angle you can see it you're inhabiting

    the three-dimensional world where your

    code is executing and if you think about

    that that is off the charts awesome you

    know because everything else you know

    you're on a 2d screen and you see

    something happen after you run you know

    your code and you know that's pretty

    satisfying there's no question but if

    you actually inhabit the same world and

    you're you as a player and the coder are

    interacting with the code it really is

    supremely magical i do a lot and i hope

    to do a lot more with command blocks so

    for instance i do a mini game in sixth

    grade and i say you can build your own

    minigame at least five different command

    blocks i give them the beginner commands

    like teleport and give and summon and

    stuff like that and so that unleashes

    their creativity in an environment that

    most of them are familiar with not

    everybody has played minecraft but i

    always ask them like have you been like

    living under a rock or something how did

    you get to be in sixth grade and not

    have played minecraft before yeah i'm

    just joking with them but i mean you

    know you do wonder

    they were doing other stuff that's fine

    you know but but anyway

    it's the combination to me and i guess

    this in a way it's a good chapter to

    start with because it really

    encapsulates a lot of my approach

    and my pedagogy which is you know big

    projects

    hands-on just in time learning which

    means i don't do a lot of prep to say

    okay now today class we're going to talk

    about you know variables or we're going

    to talk about this you know middle

    schoolers could they really don't want

    to hear me talk

    i've just had to accept that

    i think i'm a really interesting person

    but they don't

    they could care less

    and what they want to do but they know i

    mean they're chomping at the bit i have

    a saying in my class it's a it's an

    acronym which is pronounced hocaf

    h-o-k-e-f which stands for hands-off

    keyboard eyes front and one of my middle

    school students years ago said you

    should use something like this and so

    i've incorporated that but it's really

    hard to get them to get their hands off

    the keyboard and their eyes front when

    minecraft is right in front of them and

    i know i can't compete so i do as little

    prep work as possible i say

    here's what you're going to do here are

    some suggestions for the kind of mini

    games you can build you could do a

    parkour or a maze or you know an escape

    room or whatever and here's how you're

    going to be graded you need to know

    these

    command

    blocks and how to use them now

    i support that and this is where the

    just-in-time learning comes in i have a

    youtube channel crouching python and

    i've made videos for all the places

    where i know my kids get stuck so i say

    oh you can go you want to learn how to

    do the fill command i've got a really

    good video on that so go to youtube look

    me up watch the video the other thing

    i've learned is that when i started

    doing the videos i was under the

    assumption that they would be happy to

    do that but i'm finding that even at

    five minutes my videos are probably too

    long

    so i need to go more like a tick tock

    length you know or

    youtube shorts you know 35 seconds or

    whatever but

    that's why i can do this just in time

    learning because i have support

    materials there and when they want to

    know how do you do this then i have some

    material to point them to i mean there's

    different ways to approach it i could

    front load it and i can say now here's

    how you do this command a fill command a

    give command a summon command a teleport

    command and an effect command and i can

    have them watch me demonstrate it right

    but they don't really

    want to do that i don't blame them

    because it's abstract at that point it

    has no context for what they're trying

    to do whereas if i say you know when

    it's time here's a resource that's the

    teachable moment that's when they want

    to know how do you do this and they're

    begging me i mean how many classes do

    you get to teach where your kids are

    begging you to tell you something that

    you want them to know right i think you

    know i mean we started with minecraft

    but that really encapsulates in a lot of

    ways my entire teaching philosophy i

    appreciate that it's interesting hearing

    you reflect on like making a short

    version of your videos so i've been

    doing a lot of streaming of myself

    playing video games and then also myself

    like how i practice the drums and i've

    been

    in the mornings when i work out i will

    review the videos and just like press m

    to like add a marker and premiere and

    then i'll go back and i'll turn those

    into a short clip some of the clips that

    i end up making they have to be under a

    minute to be a youtube short or to go on

    instagram or tic tocs now expanded it

    but that one minute like limit that you

    have it really makes you like figure out

    what is the most important thing like so

    far the longest video that i've

    compressed into a minute was a 20 minute

    segment of myself playing elden ring and

    i had to make it into a one minute like

    little funny here's myself like doing

    something in the game and to think about

    like whether it's the entertainment kind

    of stuff like with video games or the

    instructional stuff that i'm doing with

    the drumming like to

    condense something into such a short

    excerpt is a really good process at

    least i feel like it's been fun to learn

    how to do those kind of edits well i

    guess that's my next challenge is to do

    that you know as a teacher i like to say

    now here's why this is how it works this

    is why you need to know you know

    because that's the way my mind works you

    know like a lot of people can tell me

    well you just do this and my next

    question always is yeah but why like why

    does that work like that because i want

    to know because that's the way my brain

    works is oh well so if that works like

    that oh i get it now then i can expand

    it to something else and i think that is

    valuable at times there's no question

    that that's that has value but at

    certain times for certain people it's

    good but you know probably not always

    i find what most of my students want to

    know is yeah but how do you do it yep

    tell me you know like in 15 seconds how

    do you do this

    actually i've learned yeah i can and

    they're like okay good and then just go

    on

    they've learned what they needed to know

    the other thing that i do in my classes

    and if you were to come to my class and

    see it in action i think that it looks

    chaotic

    no matter what grade

    everybody's working on something

    different in that you know even if

    they're let's say seventh grade would do

    scratch games well everybody's got their

    own game right and they're all at

    different

    necessarily in different spots in their

    game and what they're doing yep you know

    so how as a teacher do you manage you

    know well it's mbwa you know managed by

    walking around i mean so i got my room

    set up now so that all of the desks are

    on the outside of the room facing the

    outside walls yep and i wander around in

    the middle to see what i can help people

    with and then the other cool thing is

    that so somebody figures out how to do

    something like somebody's got the fill

    command down i know they've got it

    they've demonstrated it i go to the next

    person over and they say how do you do a

    fill command and i say well you need to

    ask you know emily because she's just

    figured it out and then i can walk on to

    the next person and then emily becomes

    the expert and maybe emily came in not

    feeling like she knew anything about

    coding and she wasn't good at it and

    she's not a minecrafter you know not a

    game or blah blah blah but also you know

    she's the expert on the film command you

    know that can kind of proliferate

    throughout the class so you don't have

    to be

    the expert but you do have to know

    you can't just let kids go and just

    figure it out i'm not a believer in that

    but i do think that you know i had this

    quotation from seymour paper on my board

    once that said something like you know

    the job of a teacher is not to instill

    knowledge but to create an atmosphere

    where learning is maximized something

    like that i'm sure i'm not getting it

    right because i'm just pulling off the

    top of my head here but i believe that

    and in my classrooms i've worked very

    hard to create that atmosphere where

    learning is maximized so i'm not the

    expert even though i probably do know

    the answers to all of them and sometimes

    i'll tell them and sometimes i won't

    which is you know that's okay too it

    depends yeah to be able to engage in

    like that productive struggle i think

    can be very beneficial for students to

    figure out and think through things and

    whatnot i am curious like how has your

    understanding or approach

    in the classroom change cause like when

    we last spoke it was like in 2019 and

    that just seems like forever ago

    we're recording this in 2022 and even

    though it's only a couple years ago like

    so much has changed like what has been

    reinforced for you or like what has

    shifted in your understandings over the

    last couple of years those are really

    good questions and it does seem like

    that was in another age doesn't it

    oh my god so in the meantime what

    happened i taught a year remotely which

    a lot of people did my school i mean

    because i'm in a high risk category my

    school enabled they got an in-class

    monitor so my classes were still meeting

    in person but i

    zoomed in every day for a year so that

    meant a couple of things one thing was

    it meant that i couldn't as easily

    manage by walking around although you

    know you've got breakout rooms and zoom

    and i use those a lot but the other

    thing was that i couldn't use because

    you probably remember at the height of

    the pandemic we didn't know what the

    transmission mode was and so all of my

    windows computers were packed away and

    my students they have ipads their own

    individual ipads and i had to revamp my

    entire curriculum

    my curriculum was you know based on my

    computers yep so that meant okay

    robotics with people out of their seats

    and bumping into each other and handling

    you know lego pieces that was out

    raspberry pies

    no yep micro bits no

    and even the computers no it forced me

    to think okay now what are the big

    things that i want them to know

    and how can i do that on these little

    devices with the ipad

    and so i revamped my entire curriculum

    from fifth or eighth grade so that was

    one thing you know i'd be basically

    either an app or web-based and it had to

    work well on ipad not everything

    you know works well web-based on ipads

    that you might think you know so so the

    one thing i did was it made me stop and

    think so what are the big ones you know

    that i want to make sure i divided

    everything i did into four basic

    categories i said i've got game design

    robotics physical computing which would

    be like you know raspberry pi's

    microbits and creative computing which

    would be something like processing

    art and code or music and code like with

    sonic pi so i said i want to make sure

    that in pretty much every year or every

    other year i'm going to hit all of those

    things and then i thought well now what

    can i do that's going to be web-based

    that they can do on their ipads so for

    instance i went to virtual robotics from

    vex which is great i was super impressed

    with that was it as good as them holding

    the robots in their physical hands and

    building them and having them

    on the floor no i don't think so but you

    know you still have a lot of the same

    functionality and you know it's the same

    kind of thing so that was one huge

    change the other change that happened

    since then

    and during then and i can't remember

    where i read it but somebody said this

    generation you know to step back from

    our curriculum and all of that this

    generation is experiencing something on

    a global scale that none of us has ever

    experienced a global health crisis a

    pandemic with millions of people dying

    and living with the fear and uncertainty

    of how does this work and you know what

    is my future going to be and

    you know all of that i mean and i've

    been around a long time i have nothing

    in my history to compare with that

    nothing the most traumatic thing you

    know this is really going to date me but

    i you know i remember the cuban missile

    crisis and being on the playground and

    hearing planes go overhead and thinking

    oh my god this is it you know but that

    was just like one day these kids have

    lived with this for years

    now so it seems to me as a teacher i

    don't think we can just go back to

    business as usual and i think there's

    been a

    huge push from you know whatever all of

    the invested parties not all of them but

    most of them you know to get back to

    normal well first of all i'm not

    convinced that whatever was normal

    before was optimum right i'm definitely

    not convinced about that and secondly i

    don't think we can just act like nothing

    ever happened right so i suppose now to

    bring this back to my classes how that

    changed i think i'm doing more stuff

    that i know is immediately engaging and

    fun to use the f word with kids because

    i

    really think i don't know if there's

    anything to back me up on this but you

    know social emotional learning or

    something like that these kids have

    really been through more than we have as

    adults at a young age and that has an

    impact and we won't know probably for

    years what that impact is and it will be

    but there's no question it's done that

    now i'm in the independent school world

    so

    our big word is rigor you know

    everything's got to be rigorous which

    you know who

    who even knows what that means but

    anyway

    i don't think that in my expectations

    for what students can do i'm any less

    rigorous than i was but i'm more

    inclined and i've always been inclined

    to do stuff that i think is fun and

    engaging i'm more inclined to do stuff

    that's even more fun and more engaging

    because i don't know so

    i'm doing more minecraft than i did

    before i'm not even sure i can say why

    but you know there is something about

    that game that is it's magical it's so

    engaging and it engages their creative

    selves and their thinking selves and

    their adventurous selves and everything

    in a way that i just don't see in other

    places

    and again if i can harness that whatever

    that is and use it in my classes then

    i'm definitely going to do that i think

    that's one thing that i've noted is that

    and maybe it's just a nod to the kids

    and saying look i know you it's been

    rough i can't even imagine you know so

    we're going to do some really fun stuff

    now i'm still going to sneak in

    what i call stealth learning you're

    going to be learning stuff and you're

    still going to get assessed you know

    here's the rubric but along the way you

    know somebody once

    i was on some zoom chat where somebody

    said never waste a crisis and i feel

    like we had a crisis i think in

    education we had a moment where

    everything was up for grabs i feel like

    we kind of wasted that crisis

    because i think the you know everybody

    was so eager to get back to normal and i

    understand that because everything was

    upended but we could have had a new

    normal come out of this it could have

    made us rethink what are we doing and

    why are we doing it and i think one of

    the things you and i talked a little bit

    about this is this whole concept of

    learning loss

    that you hear people talking about yeah

    i'm sorry but i just to me i think these

    kids have had learning leaps because

    they have learned

    more about life than i did way more than

    i ever did at that age you know so

    maybe they're a little bit behind on

    their you know whatever i think yeah it

    is important they get their math skills

    and their reading skills and everything

    else up to where it should be but let's

    not dismiss what they've been through

    and talk like oh and now we have to

    really ratchet it up to get them caught

    up i think that's a recipe for disaster

    but what do you think oh yeah i

    definitely agree like before we even

    started recording we were talking about

    like the differences between a compound

    and complex sentence and i was like i

    don't even know what that is like i've

    written like a dozen publications

    received some awards even for some of

    them and like i don't even know what a

    compound or complex sentence is like is

    that really the most important thing

    that we need to focus on or perhaps like

    to vamp off of what you're saying maybe

    we should focus on being able to express

    yourself through a medium that just

    happens to be writing through text and

    like then use that as a springboard for

    learning so you're learning more about

    yourself and your own interests as

    opposed to focusing on like menial

    little benchmarks that are assessed and

    whatnot yeah i think i would agree with

    that so the long answer to a short

    question you know i have a lot more i

    don't know what it is sympathy or

    whatever for kids that have had to deal

    with us and i mean i think they've been

    real champs all the ones that i know

    that i work with i'm just astounded now

    i think clearly you know there's some

    things that happen that they're going to

    need help with later on i think i mean i

    don't know i mean i don't know what it's

    like to be 11 years old and have to live

    through something like that and think

    about that maybe you have you know

    relatives or loved ones who lost their

    lives or you're worried about them

    getting sick that's going to do a number

    on you and you're going to have to

    somehow you know i'm not a psychologist

    but you're going to have to work through

    that make it part of your existence but

    um let's not denigrate that so i mean i

    yeah that's an answer to how the

    pandemic changed me and my teaching that

    would be one thing right there let's say

    at the end of this recording like you

    get a knock on your door and then you

    open it up there's a little package from

    amazon and you open it up and inside is

    a magic wand and with this magic wand

    you could reimagine education in any way

    just at the flick of the wand like what

    changes would you make with that oh my

    god i mean i don't really feel qualified

    to say what should happen in you know

    every grade every subject every

    discipline i can't say that but i'll

    tell you what i would love to see is a

    switch to more

    learning by doing and doing things that

    mean something to you in a lot of my

    classes i kind of end off with a passion

    project which you know i didn't invent

    but i'd say you start with something

    that you care about passion's a tough

    term to use with middle schoolers

    sometimes so i i use the word interest

    you know something that you're really

    interested in you know it doesn't matter

    what it is it could be a video game it

    could be soccer it could be you know

    animal

    safety you know healthy eating i don't

    care it doesn't have to be even an issue

    that you want to see change and start

    from there and then let's say you pick

    minecraft or you pick something else and

    you're going to build something that's

    going to reflect your interest and your

    passion well why couldn't most education

    be something like that where i create

    stuff that means something to me it's

    also abstract and i think after a while

    you know the kids know how to game the

    system you know if they're interested it

    becomes about chasing the grades so they

    can get it you know all of that you know

    maybe i see it more in my school because

    an independent school is very you know

    focused on one particular approach and

    one particular destination i would love

    to see some of that i'd love to see us

    do more as finland does i always think

    no homework really

    and you're still at the top of

    standardized testing how does that work

    you know but clearly they're doing

    something you know i would love to see

    that i'm one of those lifelong learners

    that every school says their mission is

    to create lifelong learners i've yet to

    find a school that didn't say that that

    was their mission to create lifelong

    learners well i think that every school

    that i've been associated with is

    failing miserably because the joy of

    learning which i think is a real thing

    and i'm not saying it's all fun you know

    it's hard fun

    it's disappeared i mean i see it by the

    time kids get into sixth grade you know

    you just show up you either do or don't

    do what's expected you know and you

    endure the day and then you get out you

    go to the stuff you want to do i mean so

    it's kind of sad in a way so if i had a

    magic wand i guess i would wave it so

    that we got excited about the stuff that

    we were learning and maybe it's because

    we had a voice and choice in what we

    learned i don't mean that if you really

    don't you're not feeling like you want

    to learn the multiplication tables that

    you get to skip them you know or

    anything like that i do think that there

    has to be a way to individualize i guess

    education more you've read it all you

    know we're in the factory model the

    industrial revolution model of school is

    still very much in play right so if a

    teacher's listening to this and they're

    like yeah i totally agree love that

    what's something that they could

    actually do to try and enact those kind

    of changes in their own classroom i'll

    tell you what a lot of people and i've

    heard this from you know people that i

    work you know around they say and even

    if they don't say it i know they're

    thinking it well it's easy for you to

    have fun engaging projects because you

    teach computers

    and kids love computers and they're all

    good at them

    and of course my first thought is a

    they're not all good at computers

    if you've been in my classroom you'd

    know that b they don't all love

    computers and c before i taught computer

    science i taught english and history so

    i know for a fact that in other

    disciplines and subjects you can do an

    approach like this now i'm not saying

    everything can be like that but what i

    would say is start small

    you know do something one lesson one you

    know one

    a month one a week whatever and just try

    it you know learn what you can about it

    and open it up and then

    try it and you know you'll fail because

    we all fail the first time we do

    anything then kind of reassess you know

    what worked what didn't work and that

    really that's how i came up with this

    program that i'm currently using i mean

    there's a lot of fails along the way

    when i thought something was this is

    going to be

    killer and it

    crashed and burned on the runway you

    know or the opposite so i would say

    start small there's a lot of resources

    out there to learn about things like

    project-based learning or you know call

    it what you will if it works for a

    lesson try a unit okay this three-week

    unit where we're going to be studying

    whatever we're going to do it like this

    so you don't change your expectations

    you don't change your outcomes that you

    want but you're going to change your

    methodology for how you're going to try

    to get there and that means

    probably you're going to have to assess

    it differently because you know we're

    used to the you know we teach the way

    that we were taught most of us right i

    mean a lot of people say i could never

    do that i mean that'd be impossible in

    my you know teaching whatever i teach or

    what great well it might be impossible

    to do the whole thing i mean my entire

    curriculum is like this that's the way i

    do it but i'm not afraid if somebody

    needs direct instruction or it's clear

    that whatever i'm doing isn't working

    and the whole class needs direct

    instruction i'll stop and do it i mean

    i'm not married to any particular

    pedagogy to the exclusion of everything

    else i just know that this way works the

    best for everybody almost all the time

    but you know i'll do that so you know i

    think just be brave enough to try it so

    i went back to school to learn coding

    like i taught english and history for

    the first part of my career i went back

    to school and the school that i went to

    is a 10 month intense you had to be a

    college graduate to get in and they were

    upskilling us

    for and this will date this but this is

    for the dot-com boom if you remember

    back that far when everything was just i

    mean and i've been a teacher and i was

    in a boarding school i was kind of burnt

    out from teaching frankly and i thought

    well if i do this then i can shift over

    to you know the tech field and i will be

    making millions of dollars and you know

    all of that by the time we graduated the

    bloom was off the rose and the dot-com

    bubble was bursting but the thing that i

    took with me though besides the skills

    of coding and databases and all that

    kind of stuff was

    the way they taught us in this

    particular school i remember they got us

    all in the room all of us grown-ups you

    know the first day and they said that

    everything that we teach you this is

    what the guy in chart said everything we

    teach you will be obsolete in three

    years and i remember sitting there

    thinking wow

    we're spending a lot of

    that money about 30 grand

    for one year of learning obsolete

    material

    but he said you know in this field

    things change all the time he said i'm

    going to list the technologies that we

    taught five years ago and he started

    listing you know programming languages

    and databases and all the stuff he said

    are you familiar with them nobody heard

    of them oh he said but what we're going

    to teach you is we're going to teach you

    how

    to continually teach yourself so that no

    matter what happens no matter how the

    technology changes you will have learned

    a way of learning that will stand you in

    good stead because it's always going to

    change that was one of the things that

    attracted me to technology because i

    thought english and hamlet had never

    changed ever

    as much as i love hamlet but you know

    you didn't think oh how are we going to

    do it next year when it's all different

    you know it's it was never different it

    was always the same you know you could

    get deeper into it you know but that

    wasn't like this we worked in teams

    creating real world applications we did

    have you know part of the day was direct

    instruction where they quote unquote

    taught us

    things about you know programming

    languages or databases and things like

    that but then the rest of the day you're

    working in your team building something

    that had to use what you were you know

    quote-unquote and inevitably and you

    know how it is

    you get to something that they didn't

    cover and you have to figure out so how

    do i do that though because they talked

    about this but they didn't talk about

    that and so we didn't have teachers the

    way they called them facilitators that

    should have been my first clue you know

    so you would ask the facilitator they

    would kind of go from team room to team

    room and you'd say look hey we're stuck

    with this thing here we can't make this

    work the database isn't connecting or

    you know something's wrong what do we do

    and invariably the answer was hmm i

    don't know what where do you think would

    be a good place to go to try to get some

    help for that so after

    we kind of stopped asking because we

    knew we were going to get that response

    now they did say that's part of the plan

    that's we're doing that on purpose and

    they promised us look if you're at the

    point where

    everybody in the room you're either

    going to kill each other or you know how

    somebody's in tears call us we will hold

    your hand through it you know but other

    than that

    look at your resources all your team

    members all the materials you have the

    internet you know other

    you know and figure it out so i teach

    the way i am taught so i brought that

    kind of pedagogy with me into computer

    science when i moved to computer science

    now middle schoolers are different from

    adults and that they have very little

    patience and are more easily frustrated

    so i don't like quite as just figure it

    out and don't ask me any questions but i

    do allow them to struggle you know and i

    do provide

    resources and they're surrounded i

    always tell them that there's people all

    around you that know how to do this ask

    get out of your seat and say who knows

    how to do a timer in scratch who knows

    and somebody's going to raise their hand

    saying i know okay go help them you know

    and now you're the expert too so it

    works like that so i kind of feel like

    if teachers if they could have

    professional development where they

    would have to make stuff with minimal

    instruction that meant something to them

    you know and you give them a few tools

    maybe a you know whatever you know a

    programming language this that you know

    whatever and say create something you

    know i have a feeling that they'd be

    much more inclined to try it in the

    classroom they have to go through it you

    have to struggle through it and see that

    oh yeah that actually works i can do

    this and then you have the confidence

    you can help your students when they're

    kind of stuck so you don't have to be

    the you know the fount of all wisdom

    yeah like that it was interesting

    hearing you mention that part of the

    reason why you went into cs was because

    you were getting burned out in education

    one of the questions that i've been

    asking more frequently since we last did

    an interview is like how do you stave

    off the burnout that can come with

    working in a very demanding field so i'm

    curious for you what would be that

    answer like what do you do to kind of

    take care of yourself that's interesting

    you know because i guess to go back to

    what we were talking about before it's

    not just our students who've gone

    through this global pandemic and are you

    know carrying the scars but those of us

    who i think society realized are front

    line workers now i mean a lot of people

    and i'm sure you've talked to them

    they're scarred they've been caught

    between you know all these conflicting

    demands and political and you know

    whatever you know

    expectations and health fears and all

    that kind of stuff so i'll tell you one

    thing that i don't think is really that

    helpful is to provide wellness programs

    at your school and i've seen a lot of

    that we're just going to teach you to do

    mindfulness and i'm a big believer in

    meditation and mindfulness big believer

    in it but i don't think that's the way

    you handle people who are experiencing

    this kind of burnout i really don't yeah

    i don't know what the answer is but

    again it's a systemic thing where

    we have you know the factories already

    set up we're trying to jam people

    through this it's so inhumane in a way

    the whole system is inhumane i mean

    fortunately it's staffed with people

    like you and me that have gone into

    teaching we're not doing it to get rich

    we're doing it because we love learning

    and we love

    we like kids and we want to make the

    world a better place right that's really

    tricky and especially in our field in

    the cs field how are you going to

    attract teachers when they're not going

    to get two or three times what they

    would get paid teaching plus have all of

    these other you know duties and

    responsibilities and expectations i

    don't know i think it you know requires

    systemic reform i don't know how that's

    going to happen i'll be honest are there

    any other

    approaches or tools like meditation that

    you use to

    help yourself

    yeah there is

    music

    now that's me that's my personal thing

    but i always tell people i have a

    musical alter ego his name is chicago

    bob and he plays blues guitar you know

    this is my

    passion musically is learning about this

    kind of music and learning to play it so

    during the pandemic i actually set up a

    weekly facebook live event

    where i played music half an hour i

    called it the southern comfort sessions

    or you know

    i said to make of it what you will but

    it was a way for me to express that and

    connect with people i mean it's a

    personal note it was amazing for me

    because i was able to keep in touch with

    family and friends former students even

    and you know friends that i hadn't seen

    in decades you know

    and we're able to connect through this

    you know live music in the midst of this

    craziness that we're all experiencing

    and i you know i told somebody the other

    day to me that's like oxygen can a

    school facilitate it for their teachers

    to follow passions didn't google used to

    have their 25

    you spent a quarter of your time just

    following something that you're really

    jazzed about now we're talking crazy i'm

    sure but i mean if you really want to

    see people make it and people are

    leaving the profession in droves yeah

    they are burning out there's actually a

    podcast that i'll include a link to in

    the show notes it's with laura desenza

    and so she actually talks about how she

    took that time that was modeled in

    companies like google they called it the

    genius hour where it was

    time for you to explore whatever you

    want in the classroom so people want to

    hear more about that i'll include a link

    to that in the show notes but it's a

    brilliant idea let's make the learning

    experience as humane as we possibly can

    for all the participants i mean that's

    the way i try to run my class so i list

    little you know my classroom within the

    context of my middle school within the

    context of my school right you know i

    don't have complete control i can't just

    go and do whatever i want but i have

    been given i've been very fortunate the

    freedom to kind of structure it and run

    it the way that i want to and it does

    reflect my personality which you know

    any pedagogy should but that's humane i

    think by definition isn't it

    one kid they said can we call you

    chicago bob my answer is yeah if you see

    me playing somewhere but here in the

    classroom i'm mr irving but i mean i i

    had one eighth grader last week say i

    looked up some of your facebook stuff

    the chicago bob stuff that was really

    cool

    uh-oh

    i hope i didn't say anything

    inappropriate but yeah you know if kids

    can see you as an actual human being

    yeah and you can relate to them that way

    i don't know there's something magical

    about that and i think the whole

    system is not designed for that to

    happen yeah in fact i think it's getting

    less and less humane i mean you tell me

    jared because i think you're more in

    touch with us than i am but you know

    when you have you know actual curriculum

    that you have to follow day by day and

    scripts you're supposed to read from and

    things like that well you could just

    clearly could get a robot to do that you

    wouldn't need a human being to that's

    where one of my former districts was

    heading with their pe department they

    would put on a recording of like the

    instruction and then it was the pe

    teacher's job to just walk around and

    check on

    posture and technique while doing the

    movements but they were basically just

    watching like i don't know recording of

    zumba for example and so the students

    would just follow along with that

    there's like zero customization all 50

    plus elementary schools were doing the

    exact same thing on the exact same day

    so it's just like where is the humanity

    in that but your point about like being

    human as an educator that is like i

    would frequently talk with kids about oh

    yeah what's your favorite anime oh well

    here's mine or like oh yeah what video

    games do you play oh here's what i play

    and like recently even on social media i

    started sharing hey i stream video games

    hey i play drums a lot like and sharing

    all the successes and failures with that

    but yeah i hear you about the fear of

    like students and like oh what did i say

    which is like every time i stream i'm

    like okay i need to make sure i'm family

    friendly i'm not swearing when i'm on

    there because like for all i know a

    little like five-year-old might stumble

    across my content i want to make sure

    that it's appropriate for them well i

    think that's so cool because i think

    they know you're a human being and i

    think they'll relate to you as a human

    being and then in one sense you kind of

    gain their trust i mean especially i

    think in you know middle school the old

    saying is that you teach students more

    than you teach subjects i mean you do

    teach subjects but you you know you have

    to connect with these people as people

    and earn the right to be heard and i

    think you do that by respecting them as

    unique individuals

    it doesn't mean that anything goes it

    doesn't mean that you just say yeah

    whatever you know but it does mean that

    you listen to them like what's your

    favorite anime you know and i always

    find students are like astonished they

    say you have a youtube channel

    yeah of course like who doesn't you know

    make sure to like comment and subscribe

    i always say that don't forget to like

    share and subscribe

    i don't know i remember as a kid

    thinking

    my teachers were like vampires you know

    in the sense that

    when they weren't in school they were

    sleeping in a coffin somewhere you know

    like they just this is the opposite they

    were up in there in the daytime i

    remember once seeing one of my teachers

    at the grocery store you know i was in

    the elementary school thinking what the

    heck yeah you know what are you what

    what are you doing here you know that's

    what i thought you know it's like how

    can you be shopping for groceries you're

    like you're i had no sense of them as

    human beings you know and i think it's

    often the case you know i don't have a

    magic wand and other people

    who study this would be much better at

    proposing

    changes than i would be we're gonna have

    a system let's at least make it a humane

    system that you know respects our

    individuality and our differences and

    our beliefs and whatever you know and i

    think if we can start there and build up

    i think you get buy-in that's been my

    experience anyway yeah you get buy-in

    from students they'll do anything for

    you i do want to say i met somebody who

    was a new school principal and they said

    they would no longer allow any

    discussion in the faculty room that

    started with kids today we're not doing

    that you know because kids today are so

    you know but i always feel like you know

    you always hear the kids today don't

    they don't know the value of work you

    know and i always say have you ever seen

    them play a game are you kidding me when

    they have an objective that they want to

    meet like i haven't played eldon ring

    but i've watched enough videos on it to

    know that it's not gonna work for me

    because

    i will get killed

    so many times i'll just say well that

    was the worst fifty dollar service

    that's part of the process bob

    oh my god i don't know life's too short

    you know if somebody wants to get past

    that particular bad guy or that boss

    they will do it over and over and over

    again and they'll learn as they're going

    right i think okay that didn't work but

    maybe this will work so they're using

    the creative minds they're learning you

    know and if they're playing you know

    collaboratively then they're you know

    working out okay you do this i'll do

    this we'll do you know there's all kinds

    of learning going they're not afraid of

    hard work they are not afraid of doing

    stuff that's hard they're not lazy but

    if you give them stuff that's not

    engaging if they don't feel like you

    care about them as people if the stuff

    that you're presenting presented in a

    boring fashion and it's kind of wrote

    i'd be lazy too yeah in fact i was yeah

    yeah yeah i'm curious at the start of

    our conversation you mentioned that this

    will be your last year full time in the

    classroom what are your plans for the

    future well gosh

    it's a work in progress but i mean i

    love

    the learning space i mean that is what

    gets me up in the morning i live for the

    aha moments when somebody the light goes

    on and i'm like yes i get it you know

    that's what i love doing and i want to

    continue doing that i'm sure i'm going

    to be in some online space somewhere so

    i have you know i'm talking with some

    people i have some might be some

    opportunities maybe some online courses

    you know five classes a day plus all the

    attendant you know everything else that

    you have it's just you know it's time to

    change but yeah i'm in a very fortunate

    position in that i actually do love like

    know and i love

    you know i love being you know at that

    intersection of learning and technology

    and kids and cool stuff and that's it's

    just too much fun i can't give that up

    you know but it's probably going to move

    to another platform

    are there any questions or topics that

    we haven't discussed that you'd like to

    chat about well i'd like to hear you

    know what do you think about the future

    of not just education but cs education

    you're in this space you know you're

    more plugged in than i am with all the

    different things that are going on and

    you know it seems like we're definitely

    getting some traction what do you see in

    the future i think we're gonna have to

    have some really in-depth conversations

    about it's not just about

    doing cs

    in the classroom

    it's also about how you do it and how

    frequently you do it so we have quite

    the range of implementation whether it's

    a standalone computer science class like

    mine was in the k-8 school that i was at

    it was a mandatory class for every

    student to learn how to program all

    throughout not an elective it's like you

    go to your music class you go to your

    art class you'd also go to your coding

    class et cetera that is a very different

    approach than hey let's just integrate

    it through computational thinking so we

    can check off some of these standards

    and we'll do it in our ela class so

    depending on how it's implemented it's

    going to have a significant impact on

    how much time you can actually spend

    learning the subject area and to what

    depth and degree and then

    like if it's integrated and it's this

    watered-down computational thinking

    version of computer science and not

    actually learning how to code or

    learning how to create through the

    things you are learning it's going to

    create like a new equity issue in terms

    of

    okay but how much of it do you actually

    understand if we feel like this is

    something that everybody needs to know

    okay well we're implementing in such

    drastically different ways that the

    outcomes are going to be

    night and day and so as a field we need

    to really discuss

    how frequently it's actually done and

    then

    how it's done along the continuum of

    implementation

    that's pretty interesting i mean i'm

    just thinking our cs program

    everybody has to take it grades five

    through nine and then after ninth grade

    you can apply to be in the program i

    think just last year and we're kind of a

    boy heavy school traditionally we've

    gotten to the point where we have a

    majority of females in the program and i

    think one of the reasons why is it you

    know what i do voice and choice and

    following your passions and all that

    that's exactly what they do in the upper

    school they're using different platforms

    like vr coding and you know cool stuff

    like that and it's hard again because

    they're creating their own thing

    there's no template to follow you know

    they're programming in unity and you

    have to make it do something that you

    want it to do that nobody's ever done

    before i guess if i were in one of your

    deep conversations i would be

    not on the side of incorporating

    computational thinking into ela yeah

    whenever a district asks for my honest

    opinions on things i will frequently

    bring up like okay you're basically

    asking students to learn a brand new

    language or maybe even a musical

    instrument and if you give them one hour

    per quarter on this thing and you don't

    actually give them the instrument to

    play with or you don't actually teach

    them i don't know the japanese that

    they're going to use how do you think

    that's going to end up for them if they

    experience this for like nine years like

    they would in the k8 schools that i work

    with it would not go well but if instead

    every single week you are keep going

    back into it keep diving deep into it

    and you actually gave them the

    instrument to play with to practice or

    the language to speak with and listen to

    that's going to be

    extremely different so if i stick with

    the instrument metaphor like i want to

    actually give students the instrument to

    play with and i want to give them the

    time to play with it and the resources

    to actually dive deep into actually

    getting good at it not just playing the

    same four chords over and over once per

    quarter like that's gonna get you

    nowhere and ultimately is it a problem

    with scheduling too i mean there's just

    time constraints and oh certainly i mean

    i know of one particular administrator

    who said in a meeting i really think

    this whole computer science thing's a

    fad

    it wasn't that long ago and i thought it

    must be nice to live in that world you

    know where

    i mean all of the other subjects are

    already well established you know

    nobody's going to argue about you know

    geometry or physics or social studies or

    french or math or whatever so they've

    already staked out that part of you know

    the day and nobody's going to argue with

    that so i mean it's funny i i don't know

    if you're familiar with the i watched

    some of gary steger's stuff very

    progressive and you know his answer is

    how would you change schools he said

    throw out half the curriculum yeah and

    he said it doesn't even matter which

    half just pick a half throw it out you

    know i mean everybody when you say that

    everybody who has a vested interest is

    like no

    i can't do that because that'll throw

    out mine you know or they need to know

    blah blah you know but i mean i always

    feel like the i heard somewhere that

    japanese math textbooks are like really

    really thin you know and ours are like

    like door stops you know but they go

    really deep

    into just a few things whereas our thing

    is let's just cover

    everything and so as a result they don't

    really understand a lot but we've quote

    unquote covered stuff yeah i mean if we

    think that computer science is going to

    be the last subject area that is

    suddenly going to be hey everybody needs

    to know this like that is a mistake so

    if we look forward

    life skills like

    things that you would learn from a

    therapist i wish i learned the things

    that i learned from a therapist when i

    was going through school that would have

    been nice to have that as a mandatory

    part of my curriculum okay but what

    about even home economics stuff like

    whether it's like personal finances or

    even like learning how to cook those are

    things that i took classes on a middle

    school but they weren't required they

    are certainly things that i think would

    be beneficial for everyone so why don't

    we add that what about our personal

    health and whatnot in terms of like our

    physical not just our mental but like

    even health about how to be sanitary and

    whatnot like that clearly is something

    that is useful okay well that's

    important but what about like all the

    lack of like medical professionals that

    we've realized that we have in the last

    couple of years if we think that is

    important but what about the lack of

    chips that we've had that's preventing

    me from being able to purchase a car

    right now because of like our prius

    being vandalized like there's so many

    things it's like no this thing is now

    more important now this thing is now

    more important etc so if we just keep

    adding more and more all we're going to

    end up doing is just diluting everything

    that students are learning so my opinion

    also kind of aligns with gary's is like

    yeah i mean you can't learn everything

    and if all we're going to do is just

    like skim on the surface of all these

    topics like when are we actually going

    to develop expertise good question

    all of the interested parties get a

    little bit of what they want you know

    and you can't argue against any of those

    things that you mentioned they're all

    important so let's do it all we'll do it

    all five minutes each every single day

    it'll be great

    oh my god oh so i guess the last

    question that i have is where my people

    go to connect with you and the

    organizations that you work with okay

    well i'm currently the

    work with is the porter goud school in

    charleston south carolina it's going to

    be bittersweet to leave there because

    it's been great they've been super

    supportive of the cs program that we've

    built there excited about that and the

    future that it holds there my youtube

    channel i'm crouching python on youtube

    capital c capital p no spaces as i

    always tell my students because there's

    somebody else that's trying to steal it

    on twitter i'm birv two room numeral two

    you know i'm bobert gmail.com if anybody

    ever wants to email me but you know

    those are my coordinates i guess

    and i love talking to people about any

    of this stuff i love it i always have

    i've always been that teacher who's got

    connections outside of the four walls of

    the school and always wants to you know

    anybody that i see that's doing

    something cool i always hit them up and

    say oh tell me about this how'd you do

    it you know what was involved in that

    and you know

    how can i get better at it i'm still

    learning and if you know people hear

    something that they hear me say that

    they have a question about i would love

    you know to chat with you about it happy

    to do it and with that that concludes

    this week's episode of the cska podcast

    brilliant reminder that you can find

    bob's contact information in the show

    notes at jaredlery.com so make sure you

    reach out to bob stay tuned next week

    for another episode and until then i

    hope you're all staying safe and are

    having a wonderful week

Guest Bio

In his career, Bob Irving has taught every grade from 1st through adult, spent time teaching English and history, and for the last 15 years taught computer science at the middle school level. He has been a Minecraft Global Mentor, a Raspberry Pi Certified Educator and has presented at numerous conferences. He lives for the "aha" moments. Recently retired from full-time classroom teaching, he has launched his own educational services business: CrouchingPython EdVentures. You can visit his website at www.crouchingpython.org, his YouTube channel under his avatar "CrouchingPython", or read his book "Hard Fun" on Amazon. In his spare time, he has a musical alter ego named Chicago Bob who plays blues guitar.


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