micro:bit, Rhizomatic Learning, and CS for Healing with Katie Henry

In this interview with Katie Henry, we discuss the micro:bit and the do your :bit challenge, rhizomatic learning, the potential for CS for healing, and much more.

Welcome back to another episode of the
CSK8 podcast my name is Jared O'Leary
this episode I'm going to interview
Katie Henry and then our discussion
we're going to talk about the micro bit
and the do your bit challenge
now the micro bit is really awesome
physical device that you can use in the
class the very low cost highly recommend
it in addition we're going to talk about
rhizomatic learning which might be
something you're not familiar with not
too many people are but it's a really
cool approach to learning concepts and
practices and we're also going to talk
about topics like the potential for
computer science to be healing so it's a
wide-ranging discussion but it's a
wonderful conversation with Katie and I
really hope you enjoy it just a friendly
reminder that there are a lot of show
notes that connect to many of the topics
that we discuss including all the links
to the micro bate resources that is
created by micro bit and I even by
myself at boot up and just a little
weird side note I'm not recording this
episode my landscapers decided to show
up like right before recording so I went
back and rerecord admite some portions
when you would have just heard me asking
a question over the top of a lawnmower
so fortunately Katie's audio was great
and I just had a rerecord in mine so if
the audio sounds funny that's why but we
will begin this podcast now we have
Katie introducing herself my name is
Katie Henry and I am the head of partner
engagement for the micro bit educational
foundation in North America can you tell
me the story of how you got into
computer science education I never
thought I would be in computer science
education I started my career as a
second grade classroom teacher and
completely loved it I thought I would be
teaching second grade until I retired it
turns out that life has a funny way of
surprising you with the most unexpected
possibilities after teaching second
grade I moved into a fourth grade
teaching position and fell in love with
all of those students I came into
computer science education really by
attending an hour of code activity at a
neighboring School District and I had
never seen a hundred students one
hundred fourth graders all coding
together in a library and once I saw
that I wanted to come back to my school
and do something similar so can you tell
me about an experience in education that
continues to impact you today you know
it's funny but I remember my first week
of teaching elements
school in second grade there was a
student who the other teachers had
warned me about and by Warren I mean the
phrase specifically was if so-and-so
gets out of hand just turn his desk
around and sit on him and part of that
was literal and part of that was a
metaphor but it wasn't sure which was
which and it had me really nervous about
meeting the seven-year-old and yet when
I met him that first week of school I
just found an incredibly sweet open
child that was desperately trying to
connect with his peers and had no social
skills for doing so and so I wasn't
surprised when somebody came to me one
day and said Miss Henry this person just
slapped me and I immediately thought
there must be a misconception because
this child hadn't observed any outright
aggression and so I called him over the
girl was standing next to me and I said
can you share what happened and both
kids had been crying that was obvious
right away so I felt like something else
was going on and the girl explained the
boy reached his hand out and he tried to
steal my string and the boy said I was
not I was waving out the window at my
friend walking by from the tears on his
face and the shape of his body and the
tone in his voice he was really really
really sad that he had hit her but I
still don't understand how a wave turned
into a hit and and so that's when I
realized that when one student thought
the other was trying to take their
string that student became aggressive
and the other student to protect himself
slapped the other student and so it was
a miscommunication that turned into a
smack that turned into what could have
been the narrative that there is this
child acting out again and so I used
that even when I work with adults in
trying to understand what's going on
beneath the surface because oftentimes
what you think to be true really gets in
the way of the truth and you really have
to take a step back and take in all the
information some of it nonverbal and
really be patient and try to understand
what's really going on that experience
and that first week of teaching has
really stayed with me and challenged my
own biases that will say yeah I like
that story
it highlights that we need to look
beyond just the initial actions that
kids have or the things that they say or
do there was a professor that I have
mentioned in previous podcast James Paul
gee he has several books on discourse
analysis and in a couple of them he
mentions that we need to look at
discourse like text or speech or media
or whatever and think through what
people are saying doing and being so the
same part is the obvious thing like okay
this person said this sentence to me the
doing part is what kind of action are
they trying to take with this speech and
then the being part is what kind of
identities are they bringing to the
table through this speech so I like this
story because rather than just
responding to the initial act you were
trying to bring in multiple perspectives
and consider different factors that
could have contributed to the actual act
I think and in their own way many people
try to figure out the why of the other
person and this is where we can all get
into deepwater real fast is we think we
figured out why and we haven't and yet
it's really important to ask that
question you just made me think of
something this is where negative bias
and stereotype ramped up like and know
otherwise it's in that nonverbal ways of
being trying to understand space that
liminal space where my cultural
interpretation comes at the table to
figure out what you mean and it's trying
to like check itself at the door but
still gets confused and maybe comes to
the wrong conclusion I mean not to like
jump the gun here but honestly makes me
think about bias and algorithms it's
interesting how a little bit of the
maker gets into that which is made and
we bring our biases into the algorithms
that we write that's a hard thing to
explain to people yeah I agree
and what's nice is more people are
talking about it so this is starting to
become more a part of public discourse
and people are starting to understand
that there are biases whether
intentional or unintentional in the
different software and hardware that we
use absolutely I just I think that is so
important for kids
especially to understand that when they
work with a machine and learning how to
respect the wonderful information that
they bring to the table and learning how
to engage with it
also learning how to understand that
that machine was a made thing machines
and people each bring something to the
table and both bring biases I totally
agree I think that's a very important
discussion to have what's something that
you believe when you first began working
in education that you no longer believe
you know it's subtle but the way I used
to survive my first year teaching when I
was inundated with too much information
I would say I don't know what to do
right now but I know what not to do and
I won't do that but then as I got older
that changed for me a little bit because
that still kept me actually a little bit
too much control because when I'm trying
to make that decision too much of my
bias gets in and usually you can't see
your own implicit bias so you end up
making things worse and I think I'm more
comfortable with seeing what emerges
when I don't choose because something
will happen and if I don't get in the
way of that it can often exceed my
wildest imaginations and certainly maybe
help more people because I didn't get in
the way how did your experiences in CS
education lead to your current position
at micro bit in between teaching middle
school steam and working at the micro
bit foundation I worked at birdbrain
technologies which is a creative
robotics company based in Pittsburgh
Pennsylvania and on a trip with bird
brain technologies to London for the BET
show is an amazing educational
technology conference I learned about
the microbe it back in 2017 so literally
my experiences in CS education took me
to the stage where micro bit was being
presented and I got to hear all about it
and I remember when I saw this little
device the size of a credit card held up
on stage described as a computer that
any child could use to learn computer
science and I saw what it could do I
thought this could change everything
and so really since 2017 to today I've
been a huge advocate for the mission of
the foundation which is to inspire every
child to create their best digital
future and you think about digital
futures you know that's not everyone
become a
computer science educator or our
computer scientist excuse me but digital
futures means we're aware that we're in
the middle of the fourth Industrial
Revolution which increasingly relies on
computer science and software the power
our world in ways like we've never
experienced and to be ready to work in
finance or healthcare or get creative in
art and music or you know blending those
worlds increasingly NASA scientists hire
origami artists all the time to help
think about folding satellites
differently about micro electronics and
surgical tools that will slide under the
skin and open in such a way as because
you know minimal invasive search or
minimal invasive surgery so that people
heal faster so you know we need folks
that know how to fold paper in intricate
ways to help our surgeries go smoother
to help our satellite communications be
more reliable and so inspiring every
child that create their best digital
future means we need to be ready to
interact and create with these digital
tools the same mindset that said yes to
the hour of code event at the
neighboring school district that said
yes to a job at birdbrain technologies
that said yes to the micro bit when I
saw it on stage in London it's it's been
this journey of openness and willingness
to try I think that more than anything
it's not been formal education and a
special degree and a lot of money and a
lot of time definitely not those last
two things so how would you describe
what a micro bit is for somebody who
hasn't seen money before the microbe it
is a tiny credit card sized computer
that any child can use to create
technology you can create wearable
technology musical instruments games you
can create adaptive tools to help people
learn better move through life better
laugh more smile more on the technical
side the micro bit has a thermostat a
motion detector a B buttons light sensor
as a compass on the front of the micro
bit are five by five is a five by five
array of LED lights and so in the palm
of your
literally you have the power of a
computer that can be used to create
almost anything that your imagination
can come up with and I think when kids
look at this they don't ask themselves
what should that be they say what can I
make with that and I think that's a
really powerful mindset for kids to be
in look at a tool and say what can I
make and I think a lot of other tools
you look at it and you say what should I
do
what's the right way how do I do this
and you immediately your your heart and
mind set there's a power flip and
instead of being in the mindset of what
can I make with that you start saying
what are the rules let me clarify that
because rules and boundaries are part of
the creative process as part of
computational thinking is grappling with
the restrictions of any tool what
digital or non digital but I think for
me that the differentiator is consumers
give tools back to their creators and
say fix it when something goes wrong
creators look at a thing that's broken
and say how can I fix it they have the
agency to say I believe I have something
to contribute to solving this problem
creators work with other creators to
solve unpredictable surprises and so
often in classrooms unpredictable
surprises get passed off to the adult or
the older person in the room maybe it's
not an adult it could be a teenage
volunteer or something like that but
sometimes age and experience get mixed
up and we don't realize that truly
anybody can help solve a problem and
learning that from a young age that your
voice matters your creativity matters
you can get involved in solving a
problem now that's what creators do I
think tools like the micro bit help
children to develop that agency and how
do kids program that tools so like what
options does the micro bit have in terms
of creating all of those things you
mentioned and there are a lot so if you
wanted to get started today
you could go to make code which is
Microsoft's block based programming
language you toggle between blocks of
JavaScript and go to Python you can use
scratch you can use just a whole host of
open source editors that are out there
including edgy blocks
is an amazing blocks to Python
programmer programming language from
this amazing kid in the UK Josh Lowe
he's also one of the co editors of micro
mag magazine you can use burn blocks
which is a software program developed by
third-rate technologies there are just
tons and tons of languages out there
five real labs has a Python editor
that'll work
you have tinker which is a coding
platform for kids they have their own
block based programming language they've
developed for micro bit there are over
by countless manufacturers all over the
world and a lot of these guys have
created some type of software
environment for programming your micro
bit really if you want to program it
you're limited only by your imagination
and what language you're gonna choose
and if you wanted to go develop your own
language for it you could do that too
and those hardware accessories augment
the micro bit right these are everything
from climate action kits from ink Smith
in Canada to Brite bags from an amazing
woman in California who's developing
these great little bags for her kids to
code their wearable technology we have
little racecars you know so many Rovers
including Sphero which has the option to
integrate a micro bit with in their
platform their new Rover platform and
that's our VR but it's pronounced over
and I will conclude all of these in the
show notes and I'll even include in some
of the micro bit tutorials that I use
that show you how to connect the micro
bit to scratch and use them for like
project extensions in one life using all
those resources and platforms extensions
and whatnot how do you envision kids
using a micro bit to build upon their
curiosities or to create their own
digital futures how I see kids creating
with micro bits in their everyday
experience is really just letting them
know that these tools exist for them to
create with I think we have a lot of
rules around the schools in school so
that kids know how to be safe which is
important and that kids learn how to be
resourceful
you know unlimited access is never the
solution and so what would it be like
if kids knew that they could pick up
micro bits to solve problems at school
what if their creativity in solving
problems didn't just include poster
board and markers to make signs and tell
people what to do or clipboards and
pencils to take surveys at recess
you know what if kids could be building
their digital future at school today
using something like a micro bit I think
they can and I think giving them that
space and the respect to say here's a
tool that you can use the way you think
it needs to be used I think that would
be really powerful to see what would
happen
you mentioned acting on curiosity's at
one point helping kids act on their
curiosity's when you get curious about
something on Netflix
like you don't just stop and say what
should what should I watch on Netflix
usually a friend kind of mentions a show
that they've seen on Netflix and the
next chance you get you scroll you find
it and you watch it I think that type of
ethos in creating our digital features
in helping kids to act on their
curiosities it should be the same way
with technology that one child at recess
can say hey I made this pedometer or I
made this this this bracelet or I made
this flashing hair tie or I made this
game for my friends on the bus and
another child can say that's really cool
I want to make that too and can go into
class and actually create that digital
tool using a micro bit I think
demystifying technology includes sort of
a everyday access mentality and to be
honest with you that's what happened to
me I've always loved technology my whole
life I'm one of these like middle school
girls that somehow learned that
technology is what you do when you're
done with the real work it was like
there were computers in the classrooms
and the kids can only use computers when
math packs were done and you know this
was in the 90s which actually is a long
time ago now and so I never even thought
of technology as something I could
pursue an undergraduate degree I never
really on
stood that people could create with
technology for a living and to be honest
with you most people in the future will
be making a living by creating with
technology in some way you don't have to
I'm not talking we're all gonna be
computer scientists I'm saying like the
woman that comes and draws your blood
from you at go to the hospital what's
that called the phlebotomist yes doctor
Acula yes when that when that sample
gets put into a cooler we're not just
turning the cooler on and off we're
programming that cooler for a certain
amount of time and certain conditions if
they're true we're gonna take care of
the blood in this way and so I'm sorry
if that goes some people out with that
example but increasingly our on/off
consumeristic world is in itself
becoming you know to be a consumer in
the future is going to require baseline
computer science knowledge to be a
creator in the future is definitely
gonna require some computer science
literacy and so we want kids to be
creators because we want it honestly and
here's what I believe we want to disrupt
who has first and best access to these
tools and what I mean by that is if the
same folks who are always having access
to create with technology or at the
table creating with technology just like
we said in the beginning a little bit of
the maker gets into that which is made
and we will perpetuate and scale these
negative biases and stereotypes like
never before I do not think that the
future depends on getting more computer
science majors and more computer science
literacy I think it just is involved
diversifying who has access to these
tools so many solutions to our
complicated problems are alive and
beating in hearts of the people around
us who don't have access to the tools to
express their ideas and to express their
ideas not just for corporate gain but
for the sake of creating or expressing
oneself or even just for a challenge
exactly which kind of segues into the
next topic what is the do your bit
challenge my crabbit do your bit
challenge is a global challenge or any
eight to fourteen year old you create a
solution to global goals 14 and 15 using
their micro bit the global goals are 17
goals set out by the you
in 2015 they range everything from
gender equality to climate change to
life underwater life on land 17 holistic
goals that are set out to be solved by
challenged focuses on goals 14 and 15 as
a way to rally the world's young people
to create solutions using their micro
bit and can you read off goals 14 and 15
so everyone has some context of what the
challenge is goal 14 life below water
conserve and sustainably use the oceans
seas and marine resources for
sustainable development goal 15 life on
land protect restore and promote
sustainable use of terrestrial
ecosystems sustainably managed forests
combat desertification and halt and
reverse land degradation and halt
biodiversity loss why do micro bit
choose those as goals to address and a
challenge well this is actually the
second global challenge from the micro
bet foundation and it is it a challenge
that we hope to continue throughout each
year and so for this round of the
challenge we're focusing on 14 or 15
those entering don't have to submit
their solution around 14 or 15 it's just
the one that we've chosen to focus on
for this round you don't need a micro
bit to enter you can submit a paper
prototype and you can even use the free
micro bit simulator at MIT code.org to
create your program and submit your
program the challenge closes on February
will notify 12 winners 6 first-place
winners and 6 runner-up winners and the
goal is for those 6 winners to represent
different geographic areas around the
world so we've talked about the things
that you can do with the micro bids
whether it be for the do your bit
challenge or how you'd like to
eventually see kids on the playground
like being like look I created a
pedometer look I created a temperature
sensor sensor etc what are some
pedagogical approaches that might kind
of foster this kind
of creativity or working towards
solutions like in the challenge I think
it matters that the educator in the room
who's facilitating this experience
that's next to and with the child who's
creating we ask our students to open
their hearts and their minds and to be
vulnerable and take a risk and create
something new they need a lot of space
from the adults in the room they'll let
all of their ideas come onto the table
they can begin to play with them and so
when we ask our students to create
solutions to wicked problems like the
ones described in the UN global goals we
need to give them time to work together
in ways that they may never have worked
together before and so two things these
classrooms are safe classrooms they're
physically safe we're not just being
wild with hack saws and glue guns and 3d
printers not getting burned and breaking
things that's we don't move fast and
break things to create innovative
solutions that's how we get hurt and
that's how we hurt others what we do to
take care of each other as we listen and
we respect and you know we have some
rules of safety right but we also have
some rules of psychological safety and
that means children have to learn that
their ideas matter and if a teacher is
standing in the room with a rubric in
their hand before the creativity has
already started I guarantee you they are
only going to bring to the table what
fits into those little boxes I very
gently challenge you to think about what
your students think about that rubric
because at the end of the day whether
you give them a one two three or four or
you write a Q or a Z on to their paper
they won't care what you think about
their work if they don't care about it
first and so making space for children
to care and get involved first before
the rubric comes out and maybe it
doesn't come out at all I think is how
we get the innovative solutions that we
need to solve problems that we all care
about and so the pedagogical approach
might mean taking a little step back and
letting your students take a little step
forward yeah that answer sounds a lot
like what sandy mentioned
couple weeks ago and then what Bob
mentioned more recently as well in terms
of like walking alongside it's rather
than fine to tell them where to go or or
guide them
um without their their understanding I
really liked your point about thinking
through the kids perspectives that's
something that I tried to do in the
classroom as well and then is something
that I do now
developing the free curriculum for boot
up is not thinking of like what standard
do I need to start with and going from
there but instead thinking through what
do kids want to learn or create and then
rating that thing and then go okay what
do kids need to understand to be able to
make that and how does that then connect
with the standards so it's it's flipping
it so it's starting with thinking of the
kids in mind something that I highly
recommend doing whether it be for
designing a lesson or a curriculum or
whatever it is that you're creating you
just reminded me of something used to do
in 4th grade a really easy way to solve
that problem is to look at your standard
and whatever those keywords are ask this
question for the kids
when is blank a problem in your life and
it can be multiplication weathering and
erosion it can be anything in my head
just now is picturing this pizza problem
lis would always ask the kids like dizzy
had half a pizza somebody else had
another half who had more pizza and like
what they both had half half is half you
know and then you if this is a common
math problem and you show the children
you know one half of you know a small
pizza versus one half of a large pizza
they're like oh my gosh and so question
when are fractions a problem in your
life and you get kids telling stories
like I traded half a bottle of glitter
to my sister so that she would wash half
the dishes for me on Tuesday nice it's
fair not fair a lot of people don't
realize that slope-intercept can be a
problem in their life but like all your
gamers out there they want those game
makers to really understand algebra I
mean obviously that's how all these
amazing games are being made it's a lot
of creative math and when kids begin to
see the application between essentially
the standards you're held accountable
for teaching and the application in
their everyday life they care oh I agree
with you inviting kids into that into
that problem-solving process
important and I like the idea of
contextualizing or situating it within a
question inquiry or like some kind of a
problem I think that's a neat way of
framing things so we've initially met at
a poster session at CES DA's conference
which I highly recommend for people
going to every summer usually on my
birthday so in that poster one of the
images that I have was like the
sequential learning like on 1 2 3 like
long people steps then like reso Matic
learning like if you picture a spiderweb
or a network with a bunch of different
nodes on it rather than going through
something in a sequence kids could pick
any one of those nodes and start there
whether it be like a computer science
concept or a practice or a standard
whatever and then they can go to any
other node that's connected to it in
some way so this could be through
inquiry it could be through problems
there's many different approaches that
you can take for it but the point is
that if you have 30 kids in a class they
could all start at 30 different nodes
and go in 30 different directions after
they complete that so what does that
actually look like to you in a classroom
setting because it's easy to like think
through the potential of this but how
would you describe what a classroom
would look like if somebody walked into
a space that was engaging in rhizomatic
learning I think you're gonna walk into
a highly collegial space but highly
unpredictable space and unpredictability
and safety can go together
unpredictability doesn't mean things are
exploding all the time and catching on
fire and we're being unsafe no hopefully
not I mean explosions are fun I like it
a good explosion as much as the next
person does what I want to say is that
like if an administrator walks into a
classroom where a teacher is
facilitating a Rezo matic learning
experience all right so just a
rhizomatic classroom yeah it's just
teaching and learning when you walk into
this classroom you're going to notice a
lot of students self selection happening
you'll see students forming groups
interest based groups you'll see
students teaching students you might
notice a little more student handwriting
on the walls on the papers and the signs
and the whiteboard then you will the
adults you'll see some of the adults
there's some contributions there but
they talk about in leadership like a
level five leader when you sit at a
table of you know like in a business or
even in a school and you're sitting on a
table with administrators it's like that
quote when the leaders work is done the
people will say we did it ourselves when
you sit at the table with administrators
or even walk into a kids class accosting
with kids you're not gonna be able to
tell who the one main person is in
control and yet there will be a
collegiality there will be a lot of
respect there'll be a lot of
unpredictability because you're creating
together yeah and you you know from our
conversations that I totally agree with
you but having had some experience with
administrators who questioned it what
would you say to try and get them to
better understand the value of this
approach because it's very different
than what like I went through in my k12
tenure I'll tell you that's a hard
question this is I think it's really
hard to tell somebody the benefits of
the approach but I can do that and I
will but I think it's more of a lived
experience when you begin to realize
that life's most powerful moments in
your own life come from a little bit of
unpredictability a little bit of
spontaneity and a little bit of hope
only then will you want to let go of
total and complete control of every
aspect of your life and and and and
that's a really deep thing and I don't
feel comfortable actually saying that
and I kind of want to like retract some
of what I just said cuz because we all
come from such different experiences and
I'm definitely telling you my own
experience as a child growing up in
school I felt so trapped I always felt
like I have in so many kids feel that
way I know I'm not alone our students
come to us with a whole imagination of
possibility in their head of what school
will be that day and some kids like me
just relentlessly go in the doors each
day hoping for something more than it
will be and somehow we maintain a
positivity but a lot of kids after a
while are like this is stupid I'm done
with this this person in here doesn't
care about me this content in this book
does
matter to me I hate this and then my
behaviors begin to change because
suddenly I'm totally trapped in a place
that's not good for me and I begin to
act in ways that reveal that this place
isn't good for me and at that point
that's really unfortunate that we have
kids feeling trapped at school and so if
you've never felt trapped before if your
life's going perfectly all the time if
you feel that total control is working
for you there's nothing I can say that's
gonna help you to understand rhizomatic
learning but if you're open to the
possibility that something more might be
out there that you can't control I would
say try it and see what happens
one of the things that I have talked to
other people about is
I felt like my schooling experience got
better the further I got into it in
terms of I had more control and less
able to explore the things that I was
interested in so when I started in my
k12 it was all handed to me here's what
you're gonna do you don't really have
too much of a say in things you're just
kind of creating within very defined
constraints during the undergrad it
lifted a little bit because you could
choose some classes outside of your
major kind of like what you could with
electives in high school and in grad
school it was more of like okay well
here are the research things that you're
going to look into but you can kind of
like specialize within that so like I
looked into like performance psychology
while taking the music psychology class
and because that was something I was
interested in but then it wasn't until
the doctorate where it was really like
well what exactly do you want to become
an expert at and how are you going to
cultivate that expertise and how can we
help you along the way and then getting
that mentorship and most people don't
get that far and it costs a lot of money
it takes a lot of time and I what I
don't understand is why in just my
experience
did I not feel like I really had
ownership of my own potential learning
inside of a formalized context until the
doctorate why couldn't that have
happened during my masters or my
bachelor's or preferably even as early
as kindergarten in the last interview I
spoke with Bob and Bob was talking about
how in his mind it would be okay if we
got rid of all standards or whatnot or
just
didn't have to worry about them as much
as we do and I wonder how much of having
standards and I've forces us into well
here's what I have to teach in here's
what I have to do so in order to get to
that and cover everything I can't afford
the time to do all these other things
that kids might want to do and right
there is where I would say rhizomatic
learning will help because if a teacher
is saying how am I going to cover it all
right there they back themselves into a
corner yep how will I help my students
connect at all and and then you begin to
see not just these disparate standards
holding me back you begin to uncover
part of the rhizomatic root structure
that connects everything those standards
that you are held accountable to are
very important they do matter they're
not in your way unless you let them be
in your way how you interpret them how
you help their students make connections
how you work with your students to
problematize the content in those
standards this is the beauty and joy of
teaching and then you begin to realize
those standards are like stepping stones
in the creek you are canoe or you're
picking your pathway across those stones
working with your students and you're
exploring a forest that's far more
greater and those individual standards
they can be guiding but they don't have
to hold you back right and I will say to
try and voice some opinions of people
who might be listening and going yeah
but in thinking those kind of things
this is it sounds difficult to do but
it's it's not as hard as it might sound
you just kind of need to think through
what it could look like or even look at
what it might be so I didn't really
learn about rhizomatic learning until my
Master's from a professor Evan Tobias
and he's been hugely influential by
being able to model what that looks like
and then kind of unpacking what the
implications are for this kind of a
process
so what I'll actually include in the
show notes is a lot of resources related
to rhizomatic learning some of them are
presentations some of them are
publications and some of them are just
like videos of this one person in
particular who's kind of talking about
it
I'll even include in the links some
videos of what my class look like so
like the 40 minute videos if you were to
watch it you kind of see that I'm just
constantly walking around the room
asking
questions and guiding kids to understand
whatever it is they're working on and if
there's 30 kids in the room they're all
working on like 30 different projects
and whatnot so hopefully those resources
will kind of help contextualize oh this
is what it could look like you don't
have to like dive into rhizomatic
learning right away and go full force
with it you could just start by dabbling
with it like okay here's three project
options that we're all gonna work on you
pick one of those three and then we'll
go from there and then maybe the next
time it might be here are five or then
after that it might be okay here are
five but you can also choose the
opportunity to create your own kind of a
project on top of that and then
eventually you might get to the point
where it's like fully rhizomatic where
it's like eight create whatever you want
if you need some ideas that can help
guide you through that process but
otherwise you know what to do go but it
doesn't necessarily have to start there
it can start with taking these baby
steps towards how to implement
rhizomatic learning in a classroom and
if you are too afraid to start with core
content and curriculum in providing
those options another way to begin is to
just think about what you say no to in
the classroom and say yes to a student
where you might have said no otherwise
so if you use this kind of rhizomatic
approach in the classroom or with the do
your bit challenge you might end up with
kids which is great so what do you hope
to see come out of either this kind of
learning or the do your bit challenge
itself what you're making me think of is
helping kids develop their own agency
exercise their own agency - a democracy
depends on its citizens exercising their
own agency to ask hard questions to
interrogate ideas and if we value our
democracy in which I hope we do you know
we care about people thinking for
themselves and 30 people with 30 ideas
is really healthy in a democracy thirty
people with the leaders idea is not that
healthy in a democracy what do you wish
there was more research on that could
inform your own practices I think
there's a real growing movement
not only in the United States but around
the world I've seen in even in Australia
groups around trauma-informed school
development in thinking about the trauma
that our children come to school with
each day homelessness as a form of
trauma poverty as a form of trauma
hunger as a form of trauma certainly the
violence that we see on the news as a
form of trauma to us all and so when we
think about trauma-informed school
development we think about kids who come
to school unable to learn because of the
trauma that they are faced with in their
day to day lives and what I'm interested
in learning more about is how we help
these kids begin to learn again you know
I mean I'm not saying nobody I'm not
saying where nobody's capable of
learning and somebody stopped learning
but for anybody who's truly been
traumatized by a life event you need
some time to heal and if you've got to
be at school the next morning with your
peers and you've got an educator
expecting you to memorize a definition
or a fact or take a test that actually
compounds the trauma I don't know what
they could look like but I picture these
like creative computer science pubs
these places of creativity and right now
they often exist already they have these
healing circles at schools social
justice circles and they have different
names that involve kids Creek color they
tell stories a meditation there's junk
there's art and motion they're very safe
spaces they do not they're not a lot of
cognitive load I want to know what might
be possible with some creative digital
technologies in those spaces not for
consuming not to play with robots to
feel better I'm talking about what if
picking up a paintbrush was just as easy
as picking up the micro bit in
trauma-informed school development
practices by 2030 six trillion dollars
will be spent on behavioral health
that's more than diabetes respiratory
illness and cancer combined do computer
science educators consider themselves to
be healers if not why and how can we
help more to think of themselves as
healers it's a good question and a lot
of what you're talking about
it sounds like using creative arts
therapy
or bereavement or trauma processing my
wife is the music therapist at a
Children's Hospital and has done a lot
of bereavement stuff like camps for kids
who have a loved one who passed away and
like helping them process through that
and so when people initially think of
like art therapy dance therapy music
therapy like things under that creative
arts umbrella they think oh you're just
like singing songs to be happy or you're
like painting a picture of somebody with
a smiling face and then suddenly you're
better like that's not what it's about
it's about processing your emotions and
well that's not the one thing but it's
one of the things is processing your
emotions and just kind of being able to
learn healthy ways of coping through
that so I really like your idea of how
can we use computer science to kind of
work through trauma and even if we go
step slower than trauma itself but even
just generalized anxiety or depression
like as somebody who has depression but
a chronic depression but is not
depressed and who has spent a
significant portion of my life
suicidal like this is a big thing for me
I want people to know that there are
healthy ways of coping through things
and if computer science is one of those
things whether it's like creating a game
for yourself or modding something or
creating an app just for fun like as a
healthy way of of coping with the the
difficulties in life I think that's a
great idea how might you recommend we go
about either doing that kind of research
would you recommend CS education and
researchers pair with creative arts
therapists and then with that what about
for the classroom educator how might
they learn how to do this kind of stuff
yes to all of that I am I when you asked
that question yes we need computer
science educators working with creative
arts therapists working with classroom
educators fortunately or unfortunately
it doesn't matter the reality is a lot
of administrators are gonna measure
success of a program like this by how it
impacts attendance at the school and
when we have a lot of kids not coming
into school for all different variety of
reasons I think it's a real testament of
success when a child self selects to be
at school when they could have self
selected otherwise if we can move the
needle on school attendance because
kids want to be there because of the
types of practices with creative
computer science I think that's so that
will bring everybody in to first think
of myself as a healer as no matter what
content I'm teaching to first I identify
as a healer I have to first name a
problem in my classroom and say how am i
my practices in this classroom support
community healing
oh my these computer science education
practices support community healing and
when you have a large population of
students in the United States who do not
think they will live past the age of 18
because they believe that there will be
cha they believe they will be killed
because of the environment that they
live in where is the hope for so called
college and career-readiness
don't don't talk to me about what I'm in
a major and don't help me think about my
job when I'm 20 right now I'm just
coping with the reality of the trauma on
my street and I don't want to be at
school because school is making it worse
I gotta be out here taking care of
myself and my family the way I know how
when we can move the needle and make
school a safe place for all kids to
create their best digital future we will
have buy-in from administrators we'll
have buy-in from classroom teachers from
parents and most importantly from kids
because they're chosen to be there I
used to have a student who had seizures
and for him one plus nine every day was
a new problem that he had to learn and
for his whole year with me I just begin
to get the sense that giving him space
to feel safe in his environment and
notice his environment and learned from
his environment would be far more
powerful than any flashcard I could give
him or pull out from recess or after
school meet up that we could do he'd
like to play online with 3d modeling
games he would just get lost for ages
creating these 3d shapes and then
spinning them and rotating them
adjusting the lip of a vase narrowing
the base of a cup and spinning it as
teachers we get these instincts we feel
like something is really powerful and
important and so we stay out of the way
of it and yet I couldn't explain why I
felt this was important all day long he
would spin 3d objects in a free space
replay space well I noticed that his
confidence was grow
that year he would raise his hand and he
would try to contribute an answer he'd
always wildly guests at it it was never
a right answer and he'd always smile as
he said the wrong answer and then
slumped his shoulders and put his head
down and then peek back up and smile at
me anyway cause he knew that I cared for
him I think I think he just wanted to
try to be with his peers but it wasn't
until a year later when I had him in a
steam classroom that we were just
starting school and he was looking
around the classroom and he was reading
the posters on the wall and he raised
his hand and he actually contributed
something in a conversation that was on
topic and was something he had noticed
in his environment I was keeping the
conversation going and it might seem
like the small moment and maybe
something not worthy of noticing but the
way I felt in my teacher hard at that
moment is how I felt the days the days
he spent looking at the 3d modeling of
the vase spinning on the screen
something profound was happening and I
think if we had research to just like
you said the port or not support but
reveal we don't know if it's important
maybe I'm wrong this could all be my
implicit and unconscious bias and I'm
just confirming you know bad ideas and
myself I think we need research around
physical computing FreePlay exploration
in computer science education that
specifically is beneficial to children
with neurological disorders whose brains
have experienced intense trauma Hujar
like my student were experiencing
seizures regularly unable to remember
simple fact I'd like to help these kids
have a voice with digital tools to help
create their best digital future what
questions do you have for myself or to
the field at large why do you care about
the future of computer science education
Jared I've kind of hinted at it in
previous episode and then just kind of
talked about it a little bit more in
this episode but I saw being suicidal
through high school the thing that kept
me going to school and that kept me
going well in general was music oh
one subject area where I felt like I had
time to not think the thoughts that I
was having that were negative and so I
went into music education because I felt
like if I did this thing that helped me
so much then maybe I could help others
through that and what I quickly realized
is that not everybody has the same
passion for things that I did in the
same way so even though some people were
just kind of doing music just for fun I
was doing it to kind of stay alive and
my expectation that others would be as
intensely interested in this was also
and so as I continued down the path of
Education and just gained more
experience in the classroom and just
with facilitating in general my idea of
how to help others through learning
continue to expand so it expanded it
into music technology and then it
expanded into the arts and coding and
computer science and it just kept
growing and growing so my passion for
computer science grew out of just
wanting to help the most people possible
and I still engage with music I still
love music education and I think you can
do a lot of that stuff in computer
science but I think computer science for
me there's just a lot of really fun and
creative ways that people can learn and
express themselves through the field and
so that's kind of what I really love
about computer science especially
because it's just it's growing so much
and there's a lot of opportunity for
kids whether it be in real wise or just
for leisure or for mental health or
whatever and that's all you need to hear
on this podcast everybody that would
answer is the whole podcast once you
internalize it can help people in all
those ways you are good cut out like 99%
of what I said and please play that
whole thing I was so good I'm gonna
start all over okay thank you where my
people go to connect with yourself in
the organization and the organizations
that you work with and speak today
you can find me on twitter at Katie
Henry days online at Katie days comm and
you can find more about the micro bit at
micro bit org including the micro bit do
your bit challenge which is at the
bottom of the homepage micro bit org
scroll down and just select enter do
your bit and that concludes another
episode of the CS k8 podcast I really
hope you enjoyed this conversation with
Katie I know I look forward to many more
with her and look forward to having her
back on as guest in a future episode
we'll reckon kind of further unpack what
rhizomatic learning is and potential
implications if you've got suggestions
for potential guests please feel free to
contact me on my website and don't
forget to check out the show notes you
can access all that adjured O'Leary com
nothing for sale on there no affiliate
links nothing like that if you be so
kind please consider sharing this
podcast and the other resources on my
website with others I would much
appreciate it thank you so much for
listening to this episode I look forward
to recording another episode for next
week which will unpack some scholarship

Guest Bio:

Katie is the Head of Partner Engagement for the Micro:bit Educational Foundation in North America. She regularly consults with cross-sector education stakeholders worldwide and supports the localized development of educational programs and professional learning workshops on the topics of physical computing and computer science education.

Recently Katie has been invited to join U.S state, federal, and international education policy and diplomacy efforts. She served on the Women in STEM roundtable discussion at the Pennsylvania governor’s office, as a Pennsylvania delegate to the State-Federal STEM Summit in Washington, DC, and as a U.S. Speaker in Morocco, sponsored by the U.S. State Department.

Currently Katie also serves on the development team of the Neighborhood Resilience Project and as a curriculum supervisor at the MCESC in Dayton, Ohio. Katie is a former classroom teacher, licensed as a principal and computer technology integrator.