Fostering Student Engagement with Bob Irving

In this interview with Bob Irving, we discuss our emphasis on creative coding/computing for leisure, fostering engagement with coding/CS, improving pedagogy over time, and much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast my name is Jared o Leary

    in this episode I'm going to interview

    Bob Irving we're going to discuss our

    emphasis on creative coding or computing

    for leisure fostering engagement with

    coding or CS improving pedagogy over

    time video games and learning all sorts

    of topics that I hope you find

    interesting now in this particular

    episode there are a ton of links in the

    show notes you can access them most

    likely through your podcast app by

    actually going to the description and

    clicking on the link in there or simply

    visiting Ghirardelli recom and searching

    for the show notes on the c sk8 podcast

    page and without further ado i'd like to

    begin this episode with bob introducing

    himself okay oh hi I'm Bob Irving I

    teach middle school computer science at

    the port of gout school it's an

    independent school in Charleston South

    Carolina

    I've actually been teaching longer than

    I've been teaching computer science but

    I started out as an English and history

    teacher and segwayed into computer

    science about 15 20 years ago and I've

    been doing that ever since

    and so I really have the dream gig it's

    the way I look at it can you tell me the

    story of how you made that Segway like

    what led you to want to do that and how

    did you do it sure well I think part of

    it was um it was around the year is the

    dot-com bubble I'm sure that some people

    will remember that and that was that

    everything was gonna take off and people

    who were in the tech industry were going

    to be bazillion airs and I had been

    teaching for a while at a boarding

    school and I was actually getting a

    little bit burnt out and I thought well

    this will be my segue into a life of

    unimaginable wealth and so I think we

    all know how that worked out but anyway

    and frankly I always was I was one of

    those early adopters with every

    technology so I had a computer I had a

    Commodore 64 which I realized dates me

    incredibly [ __ ] up I had a

    conversation for and I was always trying

    to figure out ways to use computers in

    my classes and things like that so I

    always loved that part and so when I was

    looking for maybe the next thing that

    appealed to me and I went back to school

    it was this was actually in Canada and

    they were

    a school sadly that no longer exists

    called Information Technology Institute

    which offered a ten-month program

    intense program an intensive program for

    people with who already had bachelor

    degrees to try to rescale them so that

    they could go into the the tech field

    and so I did that it was application

    development and databases and you know

    teamwork and all that kind of stuff and

    it was a fabulous program and it was

    really great and their pedagogy really

    was very influential in the way I teach

    computer science today but I went back

    to school and I and I did that course

    and by the time by the time the 10

    months was up the the the frost was

    starting to settle on all of that

    excitement about the bubble so I spent

    about a year or two trying to break into

    the tech field and not really being

    terribly successful and I thought well

    if worse comes to worst I guess I can go

    back to teaching and that's kind of what

    happened and strangely enough I guess

    the time off was the time that I needed

    to just kind of get my mojo back and to

    get back into it and so by the time like

    I did that and then I got all kinds of

    responses because obviously I had been a

    teacher and that I had that tech piece

    right rather than somebody who was just

    breaking into the tech field and had the

    teaching piece so uh so I got back into

    it and started and started teaching

    computer science I did a lot of

    technology integration for the first few

    years but I think my heart was really

    more in actually making things than

    helping the teachers make things and so

    anyway that's that's how I got back into

    it and I and I've been in middle school

    computer science since then and that's

    what I'm doing now so at the nonprofit

    that I work for we work with a lot of

    teachers who have maybe been teaching

    for a while but who have never

    experienced computer science or

    programming in any capacity mm-hmm so

    there's a lot of like hesitation and a

    fear around like well how am I supposed

    to teach these things like what kind of

    recommendations might you give or an

    educator who is new to teaching see is

    that's a good question and I think a lot

    of that would depend on their learning

    styles and

    what they're comfortable with but this

    is really the Golden Age of computer

    science education I mean if you look at

    it there's so many things online you

    know just just looking at code.org for

    instance or any of those CS for all

    there's a dozen at least of them out

    there and you can do that but I do think

    that there is something to be gained by

    if you can finding some program where

    you can devote yourself to that and

    that's what that ten month period did

    for me I mean I was immersed really

    baptized into this I think that was a

    really good experience for me because I

    went into it thinking well I really know

    how to work computers so I think this

    should be pretty easy for me and I

    discovered very early on that the that's

    not the same thing you might be pretty

    good with managing computers and know

    your way around an operating system but

    that's not the same as coding yet so

    you've got to get that into your tool

    kit I think but you know there's so much

    so much support material out there and

    there's so many on-ramps you know from

    scratch on up to whatever and so much

    help that i you know i think that it's

    way more doable now than it was a few

    years ago so was it kind of like a boot

    camp that you were a part of um I guess

    it was I I mean I I've seen that

    terminology I suppose it was like a boot

    camp but it was ten months what they did

    was they divided us into teams there we

    had a cohort of about 50 or 60 people I

    think and you were in a team for two to

    three months and you did application

    development so it was really kind of

    business oriented and you had to learn

    how to interact with other people and

    you had deliverables and it ended with a

    actual business presentation that you

    gave but the great thing about it was

    they divided the time fairly equally

    between instruction but all the teachers

    were called facilitators that that was

    the first clue and I remember the first

    day when they got us all together and

    they said I'll never forget this the

    person in charge said everything we're

    going to teach you will be obsolete in

    about three years

    I remember thinking wow I'm really

    spending a lot of money yeah obsolete

    but you're gonna make millions right

    well they didn't actually

    promised that but what happened today

    was you know in this field you have to

    rescale retool relearn all the time and

    so what we're going to do is we're going

    to teach you how to learn and how to

    teach yourself and how to find the

    resources because you will be doing that

    over and over and over again in this

    field and he started to list the

    technologies that they taught two or

    three years before and of course we

    hadn't heard of any of them you know so

    it was a little a little bit terrifying

    but they really had a good way and so

    the facilitators would say you would go

    to them and say okay I'm really stuck on

    this thing in Java I don't know how to

    make this happen and they would answer

    your question with the question always

    and they would say something like well

    where do you think you could find some

    answers for that and you know we'd all

    roll our eyes and we'd you know we'd say

    you know we're paying a lot of money you

    obviously you know but their thing was

    no no you need to learn how to learn and

    how to teach yourself and you know we're

    giving you some instruction but when you

    get you know you've got teammates here

    you've got online resources you've got

    all this you know and they did say look

    if you're finally getting the point

    where everybody's in tears call us in we

    will do this but that's not going to be

    our first response and as frustrating as

    it was it has it's been gold for me ever

    since and I you know I I've had to

    rescale and you know the language is

    that I'm learning now weren't prevalent

    back then yep but I can do it and I do

    that with with my middle school students

    now I don't do it quite as harshly I

    suppose they're a little bit more

    nervous about that kind of thing but I

    will often answer questions with

    questions and try to help them to build

    their learning because you know I always

    tell them if I'm the answer to your

    question then first of all there's 18 or

    you all and you're going to sit waiting

    for me to be the solution and that's not

    gonna work we can't have that so I try

    to teach them to find other resources

    and I said I will help you and you're

    certainly welcome to come in for extra

    help if you want one-on-one I can

    provide that but I can't provide it in

    class to the extent that you might want

    it

    yeah actually was just speaking to some

    he's going to appear in an interview two

    weeks before this we were talking about

    the same thing like you have to be able

    to teach yourself that's like the number

    one skill that you can learn it's not

    necessarily learning a specific language

    you're learning a specific concept of

    practice but just learning how to learn

    in general yeah they'll all be obsolete

    shortly so it's fun it's funny because

    one of the things that drew me to

    computer science is that I am one of

    those lifelong learners that every

    school says they're trying to create I

    mean I'm just cursed with this I suppose

    but or black law or whatever but I love

    to learn and the thing as much as I

    loved English and history I mean Hamlet

    never changed ever right they we didn't

    have to learn Hamlet in a new language

    or there was no some new Shakespearean

    play you know every year or two that we

    had to learn it was all you know after a

    while you got it down and so it wasn't

    that it was boring because you know

    great literature is always great and you

    know exciting history is always exciting

    but after a while it was it was kind of

    the same thing and so I wanted something

    that was always going to be fresh

    there's some days I really asked myself

    you sure that's what you want Bob

    because you know today it's you know

    it's this and you you don't have an

    answer but yeah all at all I would say

    definitely if you're that person that

    loves to learn this is this is the field

    how has your experiences in other

    subject areas kind of informed how you

    approach computer science gosh that's a

    good question thank you one thing that I

    actually minored in in an in a dead

    language in college I minored in Greek

    and which is completely useless ever

    since of course but the whole

    grammatical thinking and syntactical

    thinking has been really helpful okay

    the other the other side where I come to

    it is the whole idea of creative coding

    I suppose having been a humanities

    person I do get the humanities I do get

    creativity I do get expression and soul

    or whatever you want to call it I love

    to bring that part of it in and marry

    that with coding so I think that's a

    that's a big thing for me

    I do find a lot of computer science is

    very much based on business which is

    fine but coding is just one one way to

    express yourself one means of

    self-expression why couldn't it be just

    for art or I don't mean just but for art

    or for music or for dance or whatever

    not just for you know making money so

    that that's informed me a lot too yeah I

    think coding and computer science for

    leisure is something that is just often

    not discussed because it's such a

    lucrative field so the focus is on

    helping kids get jobs which is great

    like mmm that might be a priority for

    some people but there's also just

    something to be said about learning for

    the sake of enjoyment or for leisure and

    I think CS can be one of those things I

    would totally agree and our school

    you'll find that in our computer science

    program we have athletes and the debate

    team and the cheerleaders and all kinds

    of people in our computer science

    program because our cell is look you may

    not be a full time computer science

    person you may not go into that but

    maybe you're going to go into marine

    biology or language teaching or

    something and if you have this coding

    piece in your in your tool kit then

    you're gonna be way ahead of everybody

    else and every option you're going to

    choose for a career now involves

    computing and the better you know that

    you know the better you can do in your

    field it's easier it's an easy sell to

    the hardcore computer science people in

    a school because they're gonna be there

    whether you know they'll be banging your

    door down right because they what they

    want the courses everybody's going to

    need it to some extent and I think it's

    a good point what you say just but

    coding for pleasure it's fun I mean if

    people write or paint or draw or dance I

    don't think many people ask them that

    know what you know how much are you

    making at that like what you know you'll

    never be able to support yourself well

    of course you know it brings pleasure

    and it's self-expression and so so

    that's good enough isn't it yeah for

    some not for others uh yeah some people

    are really concerned with that which

    like I understand to an extent but it's

    also like okay we don't need to just

    focus on learning about jobs like what

    about in our leisure time things to just

    help us decompress from those jobs and I

    think what the humanities is we're

    more than the jobs we do as humans right

    and so this is just an aspect of that so

    what's something you believed when you

    first began working in education that

    you no longer believed I think that I at

    first didn't really believe in the power

    of giving students choice even in the

    humanities and yeah I think we still

    know we're all doing this we're all

    doing this this book you know or we're

    all writing this essay that kind of

    thing okay and perhaps it was simply

    because I didn't know how to manage

    multiple things going on maybe that

    scared me I don't really know I don't

    think I came with that kind of a mindset

    that's it that's a tough question I

    probably also underestimate it's young

    people when I first started teaching I

    think I maybe didn't impute the right

    motives to them or thought that they if

    given the chance they'd slack off and

    things like that and my experience I

    don't know if you've ever done this but

    if you've ever done some self

    evaluations with students it's amazing

    to me how either there's absolutely

    spot-on

    when they evaluate what they've done and

    learn or they're hard on themselves very

    rarely do you come across the students

    as yeah well that's a hundred because

    that's you know what that's what they

    want they're very rarely happens I think

    that I don't think I understood at the

    time how you know what their standards

    were how smart they were how they really

    understood what was going on I don't

    think I gave them enough credit so that

    hasn't I haven't done that for a while

    but I think when I first started I was

    like that yeah yeah that's something

    that I've seen with a lot of educators

    who are first starting CS the thing that

    they're most afraid of is not knowing

    enough and that kind of fear can put

    limitations on the kids and that they

    don't want them to learn too much

    because then how is the teacher gonna

    help them and that in the end just kind

    of slows things down I just had that

    happen to me today in class I was

    seventh grade class they're making

    scratch games and somebody had come up

    against kind of this thorny programming

    problem and she said well what will

    happen if I do this and I said I don't

    know

    and she said what I will find out I do

    but she said but you're the computers

    you're supposed to know everything I

    said I clearly do not know everything I

    said I have a suspicion of what might

    happen based on working with scratch and

    how I think the logic might work but I

    don't really know so I said try it let's

    see what happens she tried it and it

    came out the way that I thought it might

    but I didn't know and it was funny to

    see the the astonishment her hey I knew

    everything and then if I back up and I

    say look I teach for grades of middle

    school computer science with two to

    three technologies in each grade so

    that's you know eight to ten twelve

    different platforms so I can't possibly

    know all of it about all of them and

    that it changes from year to year right

    so I try to disabuse them of the notion

    that I'm the fount of all wisdom it

    doesn't take too long what comes to mind

    when you think of what an engaging

    learning experiences or environment well

    that's really my number one goal for

    every every course that I teach in every

    class period that I have every single

    one is the total engagement from the

    students I can't say that I'm always

    there but that's what I want to have

    happen I I live for those a-ha moments

    when the students you know it clicks

    they get the robot on the floor and it

    does you know after multiple tries you

    know it senses the line and it turns

    left or whatever it is you know or the

    you know they get ten points and it goes

    to the next level in their game or their

    you know the minecraft redstone project

    work I love those so I try to find it's

    always my first question when I'm

    looking at what technologies or

    platforms to use is will this engage the

    student so if I look at you know the

    grade level you know the interest level

    and I will dump something in a heartbeat

    if it's if it's not engaging I mean if

    there's something that I think will be

    super engaging and it's not I'll just

    dump it and I won't waste

    any any more time on it but and I think

    that's one thing that's changed in my

    teaching over the years is that I didn't

    used to do that I used to we are gonna

    get through this

    Ibis is the plan we're gonna do it you

    know right now if it's not working

    I will punt quickly so I always try to

    have kind of a loose hold on what we're

    doing and and a willingness to drop it

    and go to plan B at all at all times

    there's so many good points that you

    just said there you said if it's not

    working not working for who

    well I would say not engaging so that

    now that means that because I think the

    true learning comes when they're engaged

    they're they care they want it to work

    and so that's that's when I say if it's

    not working so there's so much that I

    think has to do with engagement and

    motivation and interest and the want to

    or whatever you want to call it that if

    you don't have that well then it's

    really just trying to drag rocks up a

    hill and I I'd rather not do that you

    know there's another way another entry

    point into some concept let's find that

    because I want you to want to get the

    answer it sounds like you're thinking

    through the perspective of whether or

    not kids would be engaged and far too

    often in education it's more of a

    top-down thing or it's like well I as

    the educator facilitator in the room

    really like this thing so therefore kids

    should like it too so like you and I

    might be like oh this is so cool let's

    do sonic pie and we're gonna code music

    and like make all those really cool

    compositions or live performances but

    code is less interested in music would

    probably be not as engaged I think

    that's true and yeah so I try to give

    them some leeway in that which and

    that's been you know fairly recently

    I've tried to to give a lot even more

    choice in terms of what they spend time

    making projects in but it's for instance

    like Minecraft I when the first time I

    saw minecraft I was like everybody else

    I think this is the dumbest looking you

    know foxy lousy graphics you know the

    whole thing how is this possibly getting

    anybody's attention but then I saw the

    engagement factor and I thought well

    okay if I can't figure out a way

    to use this in my classes then I need to

    have my teaching license revoked because

    the engagement factor is so high and it

    continues to be you know ten years in so

    you know that's what it looks like and

    they are creating and they're thinking

    and they're working together and they're

    problem-solving and all those things

    that those higher-level thinking skills

    that we say we want kids to have they're

    using them without me making them use

    them so you ask you know what does

    engagement look like well I think that's

    that's what it looks like we've had

    several conversations about what your

    classes look like and I've had the

    privilege of being able to look at a

    draft for a book that you're working on

    but wondering if you could share with

    everyone what a typical class looks like

    so if somebody were to walk into your

    room what would they see here experience

    etc okay well I have to preface this by

    one of my favorite quotations which is

    learning is messy so I would always I

    would always try to make sure that

    people understand that that learning

    true learning really is messy I mean I

    could get everybody lined up in nice

    neat rows and that don't quietly take

    notes but that's that's not how I would

    like my classes to work so usually what

    happened if you come in it could look a

    little chaotic it could look really

    chaotic actually yeah there are times

    when that chaos is not really good most

    of the times it's good chaos it's

    learning messy chaos and I'm and I'm

    good with that

    I give large deep-dive projects and

    we'll spend weeks on something so if

    let's say we meet three to four times a

    week 45 to 50 minute periods so a

    project depending on what grade it's in

    could last you know three or four weeks

    and everybody you know we give a little

    bit of an intro I like to give them

    enough in introduction to whatever

    platform you're using so they can kind

    of navigate their way around and I show

    them the first bits and then I say now

    here's your goal you have to do you have

    to create this a something a game a

    minigame a whatever go

    and then they go everybody buy that at

    that point is kind of at a different

    stage in their learning and I encourage

    people to help other people so that

    creates more messy learning chaos but

    that's okay my only rule with helping

    people is you're not allowed to touch

    their keyboard or their mouse or their

    robot can help but you can point you can

    point you can't take over and we talk

    about why that is how you learn and how

    we don't want you know to circumvent

    their learning and there's just

    questions questions questions all the

    time I do believe in just-in-time

    learning

    mm-hmm I think we might have talked

    about that before yeah so for instance

    take a concept like variables I mean you

    can give a lesson on variables and say

    well a variable is a you know and go

    through it and they give him some ins

    examples and they do some exercises with

    variables and stuff but at the end of

    that in my experience with most middle

    schoolers maybe those people is they'd

    say I get it so what I mean what I write

    I mean I'll jump through the hoops okay

    cuz I want to get a good grade or

    whatever but so what I would rather say

    okay for your scratch game you have to

    have two working variables like lives

    health score time levels whatever you

    know you learn about variables and you

    solve for X I have my thought when I was

    in middle school was who cares what X is

    equal to I mean really but now it's like

    lives equals 10 oh right and then I say

    so that's a variable that's and so they

    want to learn it because they want to

    say oh but I want to make it so that

    when my you know the cheese puffs hits

    the Buffalo 10 times I go to the next

    level and I say well now you need what

    they call a variable and here's how you

    do it and so they're ready they want to

    learn it right then they need to learn

    it right then and so that to me that's

    that's the engaging that's what you can

    get you know doing it this way I'm not

    against some front-loading and I will do

    it if it's if it seems like it's

    necessary you know if they're just not

    getting it and some people do

    to have it explained ahead of time and I

    can do that as well I do provide support

    materials like I have a YouTube channel

    for some scratch videos and I always

    have handouts and things like that so

    they're not left just stumbling around

    but I I think that the engagement comes

    when they need to learn that particular

    concept that's that's the strike while

    the iron is hot moment yeah there's a

    professor that I had at ASU named James

    Paul gee he writes a lot about like

    discourse analysis and video games and

    learning and then something called

    situated learning and so one of the

    things he talks about is like when

    you're playing a video game you

    typically don't get the manual right up

    front and read through it a to Z and

    then start playing the game what happens

    is in most video games and she'll start

    playing and you have some kind of a

    short-term objective well I could get

    out of the room that you're in so you

    need to figure out how to move but you

    don't need to figure out how to cast

    spells or to throw buckets or whatever

    it is that you're gonna do in the game

    but as you keep progressing into the

    next areas then you have this new thing

    that you need to learn and you slowly

    keep adding upon that mm-hmm and I think

    that's he has some really good points

    about situated learning he's got several

    books on it if people are interested in

    it check it out

    but a lot of educators feel this need to

    like front load and that's basically

    like okay I'm gonna read the entire

    manual before I actually learn how to

    walk or how to jump in the video game

    itself and it's just not necessary I

    didn't know there was a term for it

    that's pretty cool I'm gonna write that

    down situated learning it's it'll make

    it sound really smart when I talk about

    it later and I think that's true for so

    many things but I think as I don't know

    as adults we like to categorize and and

    all of that that's that's really why I

    have this great quotation my hero is

    Seymour Papert who's passed on but um I

    have this quotation up on my board and

    he says the role of the teacher is to

    create the conditions for invention

    rather than provide ready-made knowledge

    and I guess if I had to have that that's

    my mantra that would be it right there

    so I try to create in my room you know

    you talk about what's it going to look

    like well I'm trying to create trying to

    every day create the conditions for

    reinvention

    rather than provide ready-made knowledge

    and that's hopefully what it looks like

    and hopefully the kids are engaged and

    interested and that's usually the case I

    would say 90% of the kids 90% of the

    time come in excited sit down and jump

    right into what they're doing and that

    to me means okay I think we're getting

    there so with that being said if you

    were after the end of this year all of a

    sudden asked to you go teach at a

    brand-new school in a new location with

    kids that you've never seen before what

    are some of the like things that you

    would take into consideration or plan to

    design for in the class that you would

    try and create well I don't think I

    would change much about my approach off

    the bat because I I've seen it work I

    believe that it works you know until

    these new students proved otherwise I

    would go with that I guess my I would

    say well where are they and what what is

    the thing that gauges them and I think I

    also try to provide a variety of entry

    points into computer science I think

    it's the CSTA says the middle school is

    about exploration and discovery

    so I really try to have okay we're gonna

    do some physical computing we're gonna

    do some robotics we're gonna do some

    game design we'll do some creative

    coding we'll do some you know and

    hopefully some minecraft hopefully

    something in there is gonna snag a kid

    they'll at least find one or two things

    that they'll that make that clicks for

    me that's I try to have a variety of

    entry points into computer science you

    know you just hope that some kid will

    live and that one really worked for me

    and try to create whatever they need to

    have that conditions for invention there

    give them as much front-loading as it

    seems that they're going to need and

    then let them go and then support as

    they go and how do you typically support

    kids as they go well okay so I do I do a

    couple of things one is I have a help

    list on my board and I have kids sign up

    on the help list and I try to get to

    them in order on the list I try to tell

    them look if I spend five minutes with

    each person in the class is 45 minutes

    long it's nine people if your

    on the list guess what so I have another

    thing on my board which says ask three

    before me always always do that and I I

    try to run it that way and the other

    thing that I do sometimes is I put

    another list next to the help list which

    is if you know how to do something and

    you're willing to help people put that

    on this other help list and say I can

    help with a timer or I can and then when

    you come up to put your name on the help

    list you know see if is there somebody

    there who who knows this or I say just

    get out of your seat and say who knows

    who knows how to do the timer munis and

    get somebody to help you and then you

    know and that's kind of exciting too

    because then a lot of times it's a

    student who might not think of

    themselves as the best coder or anything

    like that but they know how to do

    something they get a chance to shine

    they get to be the expert and that's I

    think that's gold you know and I also

    have handouts I call them it's hack

    packs for each unit of each project

    which has hints and tips in there I've

    got some videos on YouTube I'd need to

    build that out more but you know I try

    not to just leave them floundering but

    it's a training period for them to learn

    how to help themselves and how to help

    each other in the absence of mr. Erving

    being right there so yeah and you're

    encouraging them to kind of cultivate

    their own individualized expertise and

    something that's interesting to them and

    that's another thing that G actually

    talks about in a lot of his writing is a

    second how valuable that is going to be

    in the future it's not about knowing the

    same thing as everyone else around you

    it's having something that you can

    contribute to a team that others don't

    know about oh I like that I heard

    somebody say once and I have used this

    with sub students you know it's it's not

    how smart are you it's how are you smart

    I mean I don't know if I'm in an

    independent school and there's a very

    kind of specific way of looking at

    grades and all of that in an independent

    school that's perhaps not like other

    schools but it's very you know it's very

    competitive it's very you know and it's

    but it's a very narrow slice of learning

    I mean I've had students who really

    didn't do

    in some of the academic subjects but

    they were geniuses in mechanical

    intelligence ya know they could pick up

    the Raspberry Pi and they know exactly

    what goes where and how to put it all

    together and so that person has a skill

    that other people don't have that we're

    not really asking for in our curriculum

    but doesn't mean it's not useful yeah

    when I left the classroom to join boot

    up full-time there was a fourth grade

    teacher at the school who ended up

    taking over the coding classes that I

    was doing and when I went and visited he

    was saying how he really saw kids in a

    different way because he had seen them

    years prior when they took his class it

    when they're in fourth grade and when he

    saw them in this environment if they

    might have struggled in his class with

    the language arts and reading and things

    like that they might like Excel and be

    some of the best programmers in the

    school in the coding classes mm-hmm and

    I think it's great to have that so kids

    can shine yeah but I mean I get feedback

    right I mean I can't say that I'm

    batting a thousand but I hear from many

    many students all it's their favorite

    class we love this it's you know you get

    to do whatever you know it's you know

    right and it's it the other phrase I've

    stolen from Seymour Papert is hard fun

    you know and that's what that's what I

    tell them they're in for in my class

    it's hard fun it's hard but it's fun and

    you know his same papert's thing was

    kids don't hate school because it's hard

    they hate it because it's boring

    they don't mind hard they really don't

    if it means something and it's fun and

    by fun I think you know we could say

    engaging perhaps in this context yeah

    it's okay they don't mind it I mean you

    look at what you know you're what kids

    do in games are you kidding they will do

    it over and over and over and over again

    to master it's hard but they're not

    complaining that it's boring so I think

    we're you know we missed something in

    education by denigrating video games and

    all that and add on a point that you

    made earlier if you are new to CS maybe

    just try implementing one new thing or

    new technology or platform every

    semester or maybe even just every year

    you don't have to do

    all of it all up front so like I had

    several languages in my class by the

    time I left but we started with one the

    first day that I was there yes so you

    can gradually build off of that that's a

    really good point and I guess I hadn't

    thought about that but that is actually

    how I did it I mean I built up based on

    stuff that I had done before and it got

    me going and then I kind of built out

    from there but yeah one new thing a

    quarter a semester a year one change in

    a unit it's the best way to go because

    then you can you'll know it's I think it

    is a recipe for disaster to try to

    implement multiple things all it was

    right now I have had some conversations

    with some administrators who are used to

    seeing every kid working on the same

    thing at the same time in a shared space

    mmm so what might you communicate to an

    administrator who kind of like walked

    into your class and like this is their

    first time seeing kids working on

    several different projects in different

    ways all at once the first thing that

    comes to mind is that other way of doing

    things that's the industrial model right

    the factory model and that was great I

    suppose when you were preparing kids to

    work in factories their whole lives

    doing the same thing all at the same

    time but as we know those jobs are gone

    so look at a look at any workplace today

    if we if I mean I suppose it would

    depend what that administrators goals

    are but if their goals are we want to

    prepare our students for the workplace

    find me a workplace where everybody is

    doing the same thing at the same time

    individually together I don't think

    you'll be able to find I can't think of

    anything so they have to learn how to

    work alongside other people that are

    doing other things yeah I think that's

    an extremely valuable point it kind of

    goes back to the cultivating

    individualized expertise and whatnot

    yeah because I mean the other thing and

    I had this little talk with one of my

    classes I said you know statistics seem

    to indicate that you eighth graders in

    your lifetimes will have you know

    between whatever two and five careers

    right whatever the you know I don't know

    how they come up with this and what the

    number is now but I said that's not jobs

    that's separate careers so you have to

    you know that learning how to learn and

    adjust on the fly and individualized

    instruction and learning that's what

    you're gonna need to succeed in this

    world so what do you wish there is more

    research on that could inform your own

    practices I guess I would like to see

    now that you've told me what it is it's

    situated learning I really think and I

    could be totally wrong about this but I

    don't think I am but how much research

    is there on gaming and learning and the

    crossover like what can we as educators

    learn from what game designers know

    about how people learn and building in

    motivation and individual paths and all

    that kind of stuff you know because I

    think that would be super helpful you

    know a lot of people I mean I think the

    research would be pretty persuasive if

    if you're a serious educator if they

    could say you know here's what we here's

    what we learned about how kids learn in

    games here's what could work in a

    classroom or in a learning situation I'd

    love to see that yeah there is a growing

    amount of research on that I'm just

    gonna kind of throw out some names and

    I'll put some of the Google Scholar

    profiles in the show notes like James

    Paul she's one of them I already

    mentioned him curt Squire is another

    Constance Stein cooler Sacha Berube -

    like there's a lot of people who are

    doing this kind of research and who are

    looking at this like intersection of

    video games and learning mm-hmm there's

    more it's just there's not a lot of

    discussion about it other than

    gamification of computer science and

    whatnot which I would argue is kind of

    basically just putting extrinsic

    motivators

    generally speaking into a game format

    mm-hmm and I don't know if this is even

    relevant to the question you asked but I

    had a discussion with somebody they were

    talking about I just an administrator in

    my school so I don't get this how kids

    can watch youtube videos of other kids

    playing games like what's with that

    and I said well do you ever watch you

    know football or basketball games yeah

    well those are other people no they're

    playing basketball and you're watching

    them play so you want to do that oh oh

    well I guess when you put it like I

    don't know it's a form of learning in a

    way you know there's there's there's

    something about that but I guess you

    know as far as their the research

    question goes that's that's the thing

    that would occur to me you have an

    approach to education that is working

    really well with the kids that you are

    with mm-hmm how are you continuing to

    try and refine that each year in what

    way is your pedagogy like iterative or

    just constantly developing well I have

    every student in the Middle School for a

    quarter which is nine weeks ish and so

    every quarter I start all over again

    so I iterate that curriculum four times

    a year and inevitably you know quarter

    two is a little bit different from

    quarter one quarter G because sometimes

    you know as I go through it something

    and of course you know if you've ever

    taught multiple sections of the same

    course on the same day you know that you

    know you can have the most amazing

    lesson you know yet the first period of

    the day the same lesson two periods

    later and it just crashes and burns so

    you know it you know I kind of try to

    take that into account as as I ate that

    sometimes just some things just don't

    work with particular groups even though

    I have this okay here's what we're gonna

    do I'm still willing to modify how we do

    it based on the group that's sitting

    there in that classroom if it's obvious

    that whatever I thought worked for the

    last several years whatever I was

    selling these kids aren't buying it you

    know and right you always have to to

    iterate I mean and so my curriculum is

    always in flux always and I and I'm

    lucky in a way that I get to iterate it

    four times a year because that's four

    times through okay this really really

    worked and this worked you know with

    every single group that I had this

    worked with most of the groups this with

    this didn't work at all with anyone

    and so I'm always kind of you know

    fiddling with it around the margins next

    time through to see okay that's good so

    it's it's it's a learning experience for

    me yeah I think that constant reflection

    on how things are going is very valuable

    one of the things that I really like to

    do is also videotape that just like put

    the camera in like the corner of the

    room so it kind of shows the whole room

    and just I would go back and watch the

    videos of the classes that did not go

    well and I would just be constantly

    asking well what could I have done

    differently or mmm what was I unaware of

    that was going on in the room that like

    kind of made it so it wasn't as great of

    a lesson if you're able to record in

    your class that can be a very helpful

    tool and that was directed at like

    people listening that towards you well

    like I could benefit from it too I I

    think that there's you know there's

    always a you can always get better

    right I mean and the other thing you

    have to remember too and this is you

    know one of those chestnuts but it's I

    think it's especially true in middle

    school you know we teach people not not

    subjects you know each individual's as

    well and so I try to vary my

    interactions with students according to

    what is gonna work for them I do a lot

    of individual interaction because

    there's not a lot of me talking them

    taking notes and I try to find out so

    what's what's working for her and what's

    working for him and what do they respond

    to and what does that person not respond

    to so it's it's a constant evaluation I

    find for me anyway yeah so what

    questions have I not asked that you

    would like to discuss where do you where

    do you get your inspirations for

    teaching and it's particularly teaching

    computer science and for me I would say

    most of the inspirations I mentioned

    Seymour Papert who really is my hero and

    his book Mindstorms and I think other

    ones call I think it's the the child's

    computer the children and computers I

    came here what it's called this guy was

    doing this kind of stuff in the 70s

    which is just unfathomable

    that that he was doing this and he

    really laid the groundwork for

    this approach and it's it's kind of a

    constructivist if you want to put a

    label on it approach in computer science

    and that's why I really like what he did

    so it if somebody's wants some

    philosophical underpinning for this kind

    of thing I would highly recommend his

    books the other thing

    and I have another book that's been my

    inspiration called the Dow of teaching

    like the TA Oh Dow of teaching by a

    woman named Greta Nagel

    and that's not about computer science at

    all but it's about teaching and it's

    about kind of applying its it sounds

    kind of silly but it's an every it's

    these short chapters on Taoist

    approaches to philosophy and life and

    different people that use them in their

    classrooms and she has somebody who

    teaches elementary school and somebody

    who's just high school and somebody

    teaches college and talks about she

    takes it a quotation from the daodejing

    for each chapter and talks about how it

    works and that's been in terms of my own

    personal approach to teaching in the

    last you know 15 20 years that's been my

    Bible I mean I have almost every line

    underlined in that book and I like to

    revisit it once or twice here it's funny

    you mentioned doubt I have around my

    neck a charm that is a kanji for Dao and

    then I have a tattoo that's like on my

    side that takes up the most of my side

    that is the kanji for Dao right in

    Japanese it's dull or Michi it means

    like the way or path so that's a big

    part of my way of being sounds like if

    you've got if you've got a tattoo that

    large of the kanji it might be your kind

    of book yeah

    odds are what kind of questions do you

    wish the field would explore more well

    this is probably gonna be an unpopular

    thing but I'm not I mean I I get

    standards and I get the need for them

    but I sometimes wonder if it's kind of

    choking the life out of our topic and I

    and I get that we want to make sure that

    they understand these concepts and they

    you know they broaden their understand

    and all that I get that but I would just

    love to see us not approach it through

    that funnel and of course the maybe

    that's just me winning school to be fun

    and all about learning and everybody on

    fire for learning all the time and

    perhaps that's just not really realistic

    but I hate to see you know today we're

    going to talk about boolean variables

    yeah do you know anything about the the

    UK computer science curriculum and how

    that developed and where they are now

    with it

    you know when they made it mandatory

    right I seem to recall reading something

    in the last few months that they were

    kind of disappointed with the outcome in

    terms of kids graduating and how many

    were going into computer science and all

    that kind of thing that they it wasn't

    as I don't know what is effective as

    they thought it was going to be you know

    anything about that no I hadn't heard

    that kind of an update did they indicate

    what they thought was the reason for

    that well if that is what happened I'm

    sure everybody has a different take on

    it right why it is so I don't really

    know but I'm wondering if you know if

    they made it a little bit too

    prescriptive and less exploratory yeah

    you know if it's just one more just one

    more thing that the kids got to do you

    know whereas it could be it could be

    engaging in fun but I'm actually the

    person that thinks that any subject

    could be this engaging in front of you

    modified your approach to it I don't

    think there's any subject that has to be

    innately boring since you voice what I

    believe you called an unpopular opinion

    all kind of add on to that I questioned

    the value of making so many subjects

    mandatory across the curriculum because

    I get the feeling that a lot of teachers

    kind of do this coverage approach with I

    need to make sure I hit all the

    standards and then they don't actually

    really dive into what's interesting

    about a subject area or they're at not

    able to because they can only go an inch

    deep and a mile wide yes so for me I

    think would be interesting if we kind of

    honestly moved away from requiring

    everyone to learn 20 different subject

    areas and in

    dead opening it up and saying well what

    do you actually want to learn and dive

    deep in to develop your own

    individualized expertise I love that I

    like the way you think Thanks

    I mean the other thing is that Finland

    which never ceases to fascinate me and

    amaze me their their educational system

    didn't they just say they were gonna do

    away with subjects I hadn't heard that

    that'd be interesting oh yeah they're

    just trying to break the silos or

    something I think so I'm not really sure

    but I thought wow that's

    well that's brave because you know I'm

    not I'm not even sure what I think about

    that but I you know I'm sure that

    they're probably trying to go in the

    direction that you're advocating you

    know which is let's you know let's dive

    deep and the stuff that really interests

    us and then we can see all the

    interconnections because then you have

    like the oh well that's math so we can't

    you know and that's art or that's

    science and so we can't talk about that

    here because that you know that's right

    everybody grows up with those silos

    firmly implanted in their heads and you

    know the the reality is it's all

    interconnected yeah and if anyone's

    listening and is interested my

    dissertation kind of talks about this in

    Chapter five and six so I looked at this

    discussion forum and there's like over

    they're engaging with music was with old

    video game hardware and software and so

    they would like take apart like in a

    Nintendo Entertainment System and then

    like write new software for it and then

    they would create live music with that

    and when they were engaging in that it

    was in like this transdisciplinary way

    and that the problem that they're trying

    to solve was I want to make music with

    this thing that typically isn't made for

    performing live music and so to do that

    they had to engage in a lot of hardware

    and software practices relevant to

    computer science they get engaged in a

    lot of them visual art practices

    entrepreneurial stuff when they went and

    sold their music like all these

    different subject areas all combined

    around this one form of engagement which

    was making chip tunes and so it would be

    really interesting to see what that kind

    of experience would look like in a

    formalized setting like what you're

    describing that is that's fascinating I

    guess the the question you'd have to

    find

    though do you need areas of expertise

    like subject matter experts for all of

    those things if you're gonna say well

    we've got these two kids in the school

    and they want to do chiptunes and that's

    their passion so do they have a faculty

    sponsor or you know how to say how does

    that work and what does that individual

    know or not know about Nintendo systems

    and their sound chips and whatever

    language they use to program in and all

    that you know sound synthesis and all of

    that

    where are the those people that know all

    that that's subject matter expertise or

    is they you know do they not need those

    people it's distributed so I'm saying to

    you a lot in this but G writes a lot

    about affinity spaces and so an online

    affinity space is like geographically

    and timewise there's like no separation

    if you're able to go online like you can

    communicate asynchronously with anyone

    across the world and because of that

    you're able to kind of utilize expertise

    from different areas so in a space like

    that you might not need to have a

    faculty member staff member whatever who

    has an expertise in that area but you

    need to somewhere be able to network to

    people or resources outside of the space

    itself so like just being able to search

    online for resources and how to do

    something and then to have somebody

    there to kind of help guide through some

    of those processes might help so then

    you need people who you know there's

    this whole division between teaching and

    learning right you need people who are

    experts in in learning who aren't

    necessarily teachers I expose you know

    actually there is a school if I remember

    correctly it's called like Sudbury it's

    a model of school where like everybody

    has a say and everything so like a

    kindergartener can like yay or nay a

    like budget approval just as much as

    like a staff member can and when kids go

    into the school they choose what that

    ones would want to learn when they want

    to learn and like one of the famous

    stories that came out of it was this kid

    who like showed up every day and for

    like two years straight was just like I

    want to go fish

    and so we're just like fish at the river

    that was at the back end of the school

    and then one day was just like all right

    I don't want to learn astrophysics or

    like some other like completely out of

    the blue subject area and so they talked

    about how when given these kind of

    environments the what were they called

    staff members had to approach it

    differently in that you're there to

    really kind of help them with their

    learning not to teach them the

    information but to kind of like guide

    them towards the information and whatnot

    and while that's sound like one end of

    the spectrum in terms of like

    progressive land it's something that we

    can at least look at and go okay what

    can I take from this and potentially

    apply into the classrooms that I'm

    working with well I think you need some

    really forward-thinking people willing

    to experiment yeah experimenting is kind

    of tricky when you know you know the

    students are the the subjects you know

    you want to make sure that they get what

    they need and I your experiment fails

    and they don't and that's not good so

    then maybe that's where we can have the

    you ask me what what research you know

    could be brought to bear on this so

    maybe that's that's an area so that we

    don't just kind of go kind of try to

    figure it out with live subjects yeah I

    mean on that note I will say that

    there's this interesting disconnect

    between computer science education

    research and educational research

    outside of computer science mmm there's

    this tendency to kind of try and

    reinvent the wheel or do things that

    were already done decades ago and have

    been since abandoned for a variety of

    reasons but computer scientists scholars

    don't necessarily always know that if

    all they're doing is just kind of

    reading within the field itself so if

    there's one thing that I can really

    recommend for educators and education

    scholars in general is just read outside

    of the field so read outside of not just

    CS education but even education itself

    like a G doesn't necessarily always talk

    about education and I've learned a lot

    from him on this another person Henry

    Jenkins is a media scholar and I've

    learned a lot about education from him

    and he's in media studies so basically

    the more the story read a lot where can

    people go to kind of connect with you

    and to learn more from you the Twitter

    is my main thing so I my twitter handle

    is at BIR vie to be our RV - I'm also

    I've got my small number of scratch

    videos are on YouTube I do hope to keep

    building up my channel and my thing

    there is crouching Python all one word

    capital C capital P so that's those are

    the the places where I hang out the most

    for learning and that concludes this

    week's episode for the CS k8 podcast I

    hope you got as much out of it as I did

    I really enjoyed this conversation with

    Bob and I look forward to many more down

    the road I hope you consider following

    him on Twitter and subscribing to him on

    YouTube I will have the links for that

    in the show notes speaking of just as a

    friendly reminder you should be able to

    access the show notes in your podcast

    app otherwise you can find all of them

    at jared O'Leary com if you haven't done

    so yet I highly recommend using the SI

    sk8 hashtag and sharing resources and

    asking questions on social media on

    various platforms I hope you enjoyed

    this week's show and I hope you tune in

    next week for an episode where I unpack

    some more scholarship thank you so much

    for listening

Guest Bio:

In his career, Bob Irving has taught every grade from 1st through adult, spent time teaching English and history, and for the last 15 years taught computer science at the middle school level. He has been a Minecraft Global Mentor, a Raspberry Pi Certified Educator and has presented at numerous conferences. He lives for the "aha" moments. Recently retired from full-time classroom teaching, he has launched his own educational services business: CrouchingPython EdVentures. You can visit his website at www.crouchingpython.org, his YouTube channel under his avatar "CrouchingPython", or read his book "Hard Fun" on Amazon. In his spare time, he has a musical alter ego named Chicago Bob who plays blues guitar.


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