Intersections of Equity, Making, and Computer Science with Roxana Hadad
In this interview with Roxana Hadad, we discuss the blurring of formal and informal learning within makerspaces and culture, how Roxana’s understanding of education evolved over time, feeling lost when having too much choice with one’s learning, the intersections of makerspaces and equity, problematizing discourse and definitions around computational thinking and computer science, preventing burnout while working on many different projects, feeling a lack of agency in education, the future of communication for academics, and so much more.
-
Welcome back to another episode of the
csk8 podcast my name is Jared O'Leary
each week of this podcast is either an
interview with a guest or multiple
guests or a solo episode where I unpack
some scholarship in relation to Computer
Science Education in this week's episode
I'm having a conversation with Roxanna
Haddad where we discuss blurring a
formal and informal learning within
makerspaces and culture araksana's
understanding of Education evolved over
time feeling lost when having too much
Choice with one's own learning the
intersections of makerspace's inequity
problematizing discourse and definitions
around computational thinking and
computer science preventing burnout or
working on many different projects
feeling a lack of agency in education
the future of communication for
academics and so much more as always you
can find links to some of the things
that we mentioned as well as some more
related podcast episodes in the show
notes and you can find that at
jaredolary.com or by clicking the link
in the app that you're listening to this
on wherever you can find in your
description while you're there you'll
notice that this podcast is powered by
boot up professional development which
is the non-profit that I work for you
want to learn more about the free
curriculum that I create for Scratch and
scratch Junior check out boo.pd.org you
can also learn about RP paid
professional development but with all
that being said we will now begin with
an introduction by Roxanna I'm the
daughter of Cuban immigrants I was born
and raised in a suburb outside of
Chicago and I was one of very few
Latinas in my school my mom was a
bilingual kindergarten Chicago public
school teacher for 33 years my answer
CPS teachers my grandma was a school
teacher in Cuba so I was sort of raised
in the world of public education my mom
and dad got my brothers and I a computer
pretty early on so it was like maybe
eight or ten years old I mean early on
before like lots of people had computers
in their houses I subscribed to the
magazine three two one contact they came
with these like programs that you could
recreate and adapt in basic and so I was
programming in basic and I loved doing
it and I did that you know mostly in
elementary middle school I had some
contact with computer science not that
much and then in high school there was a
class in Hometown language it was I
don't know if it was basic or Pascal and
I had a friend try to encourage me to do
it with him and it was all guys and so I
told him no way like I just didn't I was
totally uninterested in being in class
with all guys so I spent high school
without doing much programming I
graduated from high school and then I
struggled with whether to go to a
four-year or in art school like a
regular four-year in art school because
I trained as an artist for most of my
life but I decided in the end to go to
the University of Illinois at Urbana for
undergrad is right after the national
Center for super Computing applications
NCSA it developed Eudora and Mosaic to
browse the web and this stuff is so old
everyone's going to be like why do you
forget such an old person and so like
you ABI at that time like I just
everything was like the internet like
everybody's so geeked out about the
internet because it just was like it was
very new for so many people and I don't
know it was really an exciting time to
be at U of I I oh I left I didn't go to
art school I really wanted to keep that
side of myself so at U of I I started
working for departments doing different
things like doing high resolution
scanning for the art history department
and I was doing like front end and back
end development for the foreign language
department but anything that I could use
like design and art stuff I started
doing after graduation I started working
as a writer for a.com and I realized I
just really liked this technical side of
things I went to nyu's interactive
telecommunications program at the Tisch
School of the Arts for my Master's
Degree and that let me combine art with
technology in a way that I hadn't really
imagined before like my first contact
with physical Computing with maker
spaces game design that experience was
super formative for me this it kind of
laid the foundation for a lot of my
career henceforth and probably because I
came from a family we have Educators I
was resistant to doing anything in
education but I kept getting drawn into
issues of Education while I was at NYU
so after I graduated from NYU I went to
work at Northwestern University at this
place called the collaboratory which
doesn't exist anymore but it was a super
forward-thinking group of programmers
that were really into developing the
thing I could maybe compare it to now is
something like schoolology but it was
Messier and cooler and it was where kids
could post their work and they could
reflect on it and others could comment
on it all over the world and teachers
could comment and and it was just a
really Innovative online space for
classrooms and then while I was there I
was at a Adobe education leader
conference and I met Greg Hodgson and
Ian Usher and they saw some of the games
I had been programming at NYU I had done
some game design and they wanted me to
teach their kids but they lived in
London and I wasn't really sure how that
was going to happen and we used Adobe
Connect to bring in so I started
designing these classes where I would
give a little bit of Game Theory I'd
bring in a guest speaker on a topic and
then these kids would learn programming
to design these games even though they
were like a little bit outside of London
and I was in Chicago that got me super
excited about just this idea of what
these kids were learning and how they
were learning it and so I learned a
little bit about computational thinking
and then I decided to go to the
University of Illinois at Chicago to get
my PhD in educational psychology
studying computational thinking and at
the same time I started working at the
center for college access and success at
Northeastern Illinois University where I
started developing like out of school
programming for students in Title 1
schools in Chicago Public Schools they
were all part of the Gear Up program
which is this program that serves Title
One schools my job there was like I was
just trying to expose students to ideas
of game design computer science robotics
just maker stuff and so I was doing a
lot of that work and at the same time
Irene Lee who is now at MIT she asked me
to become part of the csta's
computational thinking task force and
then that started really shaping my
thinking around computational thinking
then around that time I was still a PhD
student and I got an NSF Grant a
National Science Foundation Grant to
study the assessment of computational
thinking and maker environments and that
became part of my dissertation so if
you're interested in assessing
computational thinking first I recommend
you read our paper formative assessment
for computational thinking maker spaces
but I think you really have to be
creative and think of ways to make
thinking visible part of the problem
with computational thinking is that it's
thinking but good assessment allows you
to learn about yourself or about the
content while you're doing the
assessment that it's the assessment just
doesn't exist just to assess you so I've
had a lot of success in having students
do like think alouds where they narrate
what they're doing getting them to
identify the process while they're using
it really pushing the metacognitive
skills while they're doing these think
alouds and especially when they're
debugging and drawing out a problem or
writing out a problem has been a really
good way for students to make problems
more tangible and to make the thinking
more visible exactly when that Grant
ended I joined the Cs Equity project at
UCLA Center X that's been nothing but an
absolute Joy like working with Jane
Margolis Gene Roo Julie flapping they've
just done so much in the field and
they've shaped so much of my thinking
around what computer science education
is and what it should be and ideas of
equity and they're just amazing human
beings I started working there on a
research practice partnership called
scale VA that IT addresses the systemic
nature of Computer Science Education by
building the capacity of not just
teachers generally a lot of this these
ideas years of equity are focused on
teachers but also including the
administrators policy makers counselors
most of my work has been with
administrators since then by
administrators I mean like School
leaders having them explore their own
biases and the policies and structures
and their institutions that prevent them
from helping students get engaged in
computer science Julie calls this kind
of like focus on the teachers admin and
policy makers the three C's the
classroom the county and the capital and
we're now expanding into a fourth sea
which includes the community and we have
a new employee called Nazario who is
helping us on that and now like I do
work on cs4ca our computer science for
California which are Statewide movement
to expand computer science most of my
focus now is we just got a large
educator Workforce investment Grant from
the state of California to expand the
work we've been doing with scale and
computer science for California work
calling it the seasons of Cs we had this
pilot program where we just did like a
TS PD week and we wanted to expand that
the professional learning of cspd weeks
to teams of counselors teachers and
administrators and we're expanding it
not just through this idea of who gets
it but across the entire State of
California to expand the work we've been
doing with scale and computer science
for California we're calling it the
seasons of Cs we're expanding it from a
pilot that was the summer of Cs which
provided professional learning to teams
of teachers counselors administrators in
a cspd week model and we're now
expanding this across the state of
California through the county offices in
every region and then expanding it
throughout the year and building
communities of practice to develop folks
into what we're calling CS Champions
which are like advocates for Equitable
computer science for all students so
like being a musician I have had a lot
of formal and informal experiences that
like profoundly impact my thoughts on
music education the way that you just
kind of described your background had a
lot of informal non-formal kind of
blurred in with formal experiences
obviously getting a doctorate but then
maker spaces depending on how they are
implemented whether it's during school
or after school can kind of be that like
merging together of informal with formal
I'm curious like how your experiences in
these different contexts have kind of
shaped your understandings of well what
might a maker space look like or even
what my education look like in general
yeah I mean I think a lot of this is the
siloing of how education operates
currently is definitely a detriment to
learning the way I got into CS was you
know I described it a little bit but
like really like I wanted to make I drew
little characters on a screen and I
wanted to make them move and interact
with people when you know they move
their Mouse over them that's essentially
how I started learning the program and I
think for other kids it's you know
robotics or it's doing circuitry or it's
doing music but the way Educational
Systems are set up right now there's
just this a lot of this is driven by
assessment right like we have to make
sure that students learn the certain
content area in certain disciplines
because of that we draw these lines
between things and that's what I love
about makerspaces is I feel like it
blurs those lines a little bit and
allows for students to connect different
parts of their identity in a Makerspace
I hope that there's more of these kinds
of spaces during the actual school day
and not just an after-school experience
because that's making it really
Equitable and having students really
engage with their ideas of who they are
how they can engage with that I identity
in a way that they can create and they
can make something that's for them or
for their Community okay that really
resonates with me so for my own
dissertation I was looking at people on
an online discussion forum talking about
chiptunes which is music made from like
retro computer and video game hardware
and so there's a lot of engineering that
goes on design and Manufacturing to be
able to create chips to connect new
devices to the old like a Sega Genesis
or Mega Drive but then there's also a
lot of programming that goes on like it
blurs these disciplinary lines and silos
that exist in ways that I honestly
couldn't find a framework to really
describe it well enough until I looked
at maker scholarship and was like ah
okay so here's people who are talking
about informal non-formal spaces
typically this makes sense like the way
that people are engaging with it but
it's just so different from what
actually goes on inside of the classroom
and it was interesting going through
this process because it wasn't really
until the PHD when I really gotta say in
what I wanted to learn and up until then
I was like well School works great if
you're interested in it otherwise it
sucks but once you finally get out to
the PHD level it's all right what do you
want to learn what are you interested in
I'm like ah now we can actually explore
whatever Direction I want to go in other
than just an elective and even then it's
still like you chose a topic that you're
interested in we're going down a path
that everybody goes in but this is very
different than the way that I actually
approach the classroom when I finished
doing my residency I'm curious for you
like how has your understanding of
Education kind of evolved or changed
over time I think two ways the first way
and so much of this is because of my own
personal experience a lot of the work
that I've done at the Cs Equity project
and really investigating issues of
equity I think subconsciously I really
believed in this idea of meritocracy I
worked really hard in school unlike you
I really liked the classroom structure I
had the privilege you know coming from a
middle class family I have light skin I
have blue gray eyes I had all the stuff
and I really believed that due to my
hard work in this classroom that is how
I became successful and by successful I
mean like I got to go to college and it
sounds super naive now but I really
bought into this idea I think of
meritocracy and I also I think didn't
really recognize the challenges I had
faced like without you know that I was
identified as female and that I was
Latina and that I was first generation
natively born and the structures that I
didn't know the ins and outs of so so I
think that is one way that the nature of
education has changed for me but I think
also that just playing the game that I'm
talking about in the classroom that I
did quite well I think was also a bit of
a detriment like and I saw this with
some of the students in the Makerspace
is that I led that they really struggled
with ambivalence that they had like
we've open-ended kind of prompts when
there isn't a very clear path forward as
to connecting with like what you want to
do and how to make that happen I saw
myself and a lot of these students where
they're like wait I can do you know what
I want and I would develop prompts for
them but like you know within that
prompt they had freedom and this Freedom
they struggled with and I think not all
of them I'm thinking of these specific
students with whom I identified with
that yeah when placed outside of the
regular structure of the school day they
had a hard time so I'm curious if we can
dive into that more so when placed out
of the structure may have felt a little
like aimless or lost but did you feel
that way or even your students feel that
way when engaging in like non-formal
types of learning like whether it's like
oh I want to learn how to do this type
of artwork and you're doing it outside
of a class did you feel like you were
lost then Martinez and Steger talk about
this a lot in their books about maker
spaces it's about a really good prompt
right like I luckily had teachers so
when I'm thinking about art my art
classes my instructors they would
essentially be giving us prompts like
you have to do something with just pen
and ink black and white that focuses on
you know gradients and it has to be an
animal or whatever and they would place
these prompts and I would be able to
pick among their I think when we pushed
students to really and myself I know
this happened to me in grad school I had
my Master's Degree before I went to PhD
and my Master's Degree was my first
taste of what you were talking about in
this kind of graduate school kind of you
lead your education and for me that was
it was a bit of a challenge like really
trying to figure out what it is who I
was outside of the structure of the
school day that it wasn't just about
answering questions on a test again a it
was more about really figuring out your
own identity and the path you want to
move forward and I don't think my
schooling did a lot of amazing things
for me but I think it could have done
more to really help me engage in that
way yeah I noticed that a lot with
students and then I even noticed that
with myself when you are basically
socialized for years sometimes decades
into one way of schooling and learning
well schooling I should say and then
you're being presented the opportunity
needed to do it in a completely
different way where you have choice and
can explore whatever Direction you want
to it can be overwhelming at times and
just like wait I'm lost this isn't what
I'm used to let's go back to the thing
that I'm more comfortable with as
opposed to being able to explore things
that are interesting to an individual
I'm curious for you when you were
exploring research on maker spaces what
surprised you about it okay two things I
think
thing was this this research came out of
my own like just observing and I was
noticing with the students their
struggle with this and like legitimately
students like asking me but what is the
answer like
yeah it were uncomfortable with me
telling them here are some components
for a circuit you come up with whatever
you know like configurations of a
circuit you want to make with and
they're like yes but what do you want me
to make and I like trying to tell them
like you can make whatever you want a
lot of times this was a high achieving
students but not always like you know
sometimes it wasn't you know it was
students all along like who were
successful at playing the school game
and some who were not it was interesting
to me to see how different that was I
think in reading about maker spaces and
not like necessarily a surprise but
something I hadn't really considered as
much before what was exciting to me
about makerspaces was that students
could bring not just their own identity
but the identity of their families into
a Makerspace so maker space cases then
value the kind of learning that their
families have in ways that aren't really
like in American culture American
society aren't always valued so you know
a mechanic or somebody who bakes or
somebody who sews like that's what was
exciting about Makerspace to me is that
all of a sudden like all of this
knowledge These funds of knowledge are
then appreciated and tapped into so we
did that with our Makerspace like we
would have Show and Tell and just have
kids like it didn't have anything with
what they were doing in Makerspace but
stuff they did at home that completely
disassociated but like was part of who
they were so kids brought in like their
tajido their crochets their the
paintings they made I remember one kid
she would make model cars with her dad
who was a mechanic and she would bring
those in just for them to start really
thinking about who they were who their
family was and providing that kind of
foundation for where they might want to
go with the things that they were making
so I'm seeing a ton of connections
between what you're just describing with
maker spaces and then what I know you've
talked about and done with your more
Equity centered work and whatnot and
like even like what was it last night
when we were talking about the k-por
framework and applying that like I'm
curious if you could be more explicit
for a teacher who is like unable to make
that connection that I see you doing
right there with between like maker
spaces and then Equity related
discussions what Makerspace is allowed
for is this connection between students
home life and their internal life and if
done in that way it also with content
that like academic learning and not in a
way that you would normally think of
academic learning but it's coming from
within them to pursue a project that
requires them to then find the sources
of their own motivation to then find
solutions to problems they want to
answer those problems can come from
things they are facing things their
communities are facing and what's
exciting about maker spaces is that it's
a space not to be reductive you know
they connect both online and offline and
you have connections with people who are
probably more expert than you and less
expert than you but the interaction
between those groups of people really
start generating these kinds of ideas
that don't normally happen if you are in
isolation thinking about these projects
and you also have access to materials
whether that be like just a laptop for
you to make like a game or a song or
something like that but sometimes it's
like yarn and cardboard tubes or
whatever but the access to materials
that make you really be able to
prototype and build things that are part
of that motivation I appreciate the
emphasis on the idea of it's a space
like I've talked about this in the
previous podcasts on maker culture maker
spaces but then also on Affinity spaces
which are more like informal
characteristics and how I applied them
into the classroom like there is an
ontology of being a maker that can be
applied outside of maker spaces so you
can apply it in your computer science
class or your music class or social
studies or whatever like it's just a way
of being or learning or experiencing
that doesn't have to take place in these
specific spaces labeled as Makerspace
that are during school or after school
or whatever no absolutely and I think
the other tricky thing with making and
maker spaces is the same thing we're
kind of up against in the computer
science Community which is it has been
associated with this CIS white guy yeah
building these things who's part of the
maker Community or part of the yes
Community when neither of those spaces
you know should they claim ownership too
so I think there's just so much overlap
between those spaces which is why I was
really interested to see like how could
we work on these kind of skills that we
build in maker spaces to build identity
and as a computer scientist in in
students regardless of being in a
Makerspace or not yeah that's a good
point there's a podcast that I did it's
on an article called making through the
lens of culture and power toward
Transformer divisions for educational
equity and so that talks specifically
about how while the maker practices are
awesome the way that it's presented is
as if this is new shiny thing largely
for white males to engage in but really
it's coming from typically Blue Collar
jobs and from marginalized groups and
that is like kind of pushed to the
Wayside and it's like oh here's this new
thing you can do and it's like well
actually there's a long history of
professions people who actually do this
and we can't just ignore them in the
history that goes behind that so
appreciate [ __ ] you pointing that out
yeah just by slapping the name Maker's
face on it like it's not you know I
remember the first time I described this
to a teacher a Makerspace to a teacher
and she was like oh you're talking about
like shop class and at first I was like
no it's totally different from shop
class and then after a while I was like
no actually it's laughing about class
like yeah yeah I'm honestly I'm grateful
that I had a shop class in Middle School
like I learned so many tools it was a
three-day weekend and I spent most of it
like renoing our house like using a
miter saws like I actually know how to
use this thing yay
I don't remember anything for my shot
pass so I'm so super impressed with you
right now I made some cool stuff too but
I don't remember how I did it well In
fairness I did have a refresher I would
like after I finished the the PHD I did
a volunteer work with Habitat for
Humanity and learned how to build a
house from the like slab up so like it
was like oh yeah I forgot this like it
was a long time ago but now I remember
how to use a miter saw whatever
I think too like what you were talking
about in terms of the maker space all of
a sudden like oh this is Makerspace and
now this is a new shiny thing yeah I
think the same thing can be said of I
think we're in danger of that with
computational thinking where we say I
have my own definition of computational
thinking and I you know if I described
what computational thinking is I think
most people would be like wait that's
critical thinking or that's mathematical
thinking or that's reasoning or you know
there's lots of things where they would
be like this has been done before this
is not and I think that's the danger of
both computational thinking and computer
science where we can sometimes think
that we're the end-all be-all yes in our
community and I think this is an issue
of equity as well we have to pay
attention to the fact that other fields
have a lot to offer and that if
understanding computational thinking is
the best way to solve problems are the
only way to solve problems then we would
have no problems and like you know
there's enough computer scientists
already you know and I think we've
figured out by now that like being a
computer scientist does not make you
better at solving problems in fact you
might create more so I think it's how
you frame computational thinking too
like it depends on how you do it you can
use computational thinking for good or
for not so good yeah it has this
potential to come across as like
colonizing epistemologies and to even
frame other entire disciplines as a
deficit like hey Arts we've been doing
things for thousands of years that's
nice and all but have you heard of
computational thinking it's this new
thing and then it's like ignore your
thousands of years of traditions and
ways of thinking and understanding we as
the non-artists are going to show you
what you're supposed to do as artists by
thinking computational things it's like
wait what like it doesn't make sense
yeah I mean we're super what is the word
like just arrogant we're like in the Cs
Ed Community we've become incredibly
arrogant and I mean that's a function of
like how pervasive Technologies become
right so it's in everything so we can
say well we think we can say like oh
well you've got to figure out this like
one scratch with this yes Band-Aid this
is what's going to figure it out and it
goes back to what I was saying before
that it's really this integration of
disciplines and really understanding how
having an understanding of History
having an understanding of Ethics having
an understanding of design all of those
things are really important when we are
creating any kind of application yeah
and your point about like Tech being and
everything and like that kind of being
used almost as like a platform to stand
on for a lot of like advocacy work like
yes it is in everything however it was
designed and optimized for white and
Western cultures and so if we are
positioning this this is literally
colonizing like ways of being if we're
saying no everybody needs to to adhere
to this and understand this disposition
or thinking or whatever so my definition
I use them because they kind of did a
meta study of definitions of
computational thinking and I also use
like the dispositions that iste and csta
had put together the concepts that Selby
and Willard had put together as long as
you frame those in a way that you
situate it in cultural context and you
are critical when you are using them so
you know when you were doing like
evaluation is the one I most often point
to which is one of the concepts of
computational thinking when you were
evaluating something you're not just
evaluating it for is it fast and
efficient but you're evaluating it like
in terms of what communities does this
benefit what communities does this harm
how is this impact the environment how
does this impact specific people in
their daily lives so I mean that is part
of if you're doing computational
thinking in the way it should be done in
my opinion then you know you're not
engaging in a logical colonization I
feel like if you're if you're doing it
from a critical lens and understanding
the history and culture and values of
the communities and with which you want
to engage yeah one of the interesting
aspects of computational thinking is
such a vague term and like everybody
like you mentioned that kind of has
their own definition and on one hand
I've mentioned several times on the
podcast I strongly value
multi-perspectival approaches where you
look at things from different angles but
when it comes to like not even be able
to have the same understanding of a term
it leads to some tricky territories so
I've done some podcasts where I talk
about curriculum and how the word
integration might mean one thing to one
person and then a completely different
thing to a different person whether it's
interdisciplinary transdisciplinary
multidisciplinary plural like there's so
many different ways that we can talk
about well what does this look like who
does it serve Etc and then the same
thing with computational thinking so
like on one hand I value it but on the
other hand it's like okay when a
district says they want to integrate
computational thinking into the
classroom room there's so many different
variants of that that of meanings that
maybe the admin means one thing and then
a teacher means a different thing and
parents might look at this as a
different thing so I'm curious if you
see strength or weakness or somewhere in
between with like the vagueness of the
term and lack of consensus I mean I
think a lot
you know the computational part is what
I talked about before like how is this
different from like critical thinking
how is this just exclusive to a
computational way of solving a problem I
think Peter Denning has talked about
this before I think he's on to something
when he calls it computational design
where you incorporate the actual doing
of computing with the iterative process
of design like this is the other problem
with the word computational thinking
which is the thinking part because
thinking is internal you can't see
thinking so what is it exactly you're
asking students to do when you want them
to engage in computational thinking you
are obviously you want some sort of
output but how are you measuring that
this is where all this definitional
confusion is coming from I think those
two words are in themselves are quite
vague I suppose for me it's become an
asset making sure that education is
equity centered Equity minded in that I
can use computation thinking as a
framing for how to explore problems with
an equity lens because I can ask folks
when they're looking at patterns I can
ask those okay if you're looking at
patterns look at this data on air
quality within this community as opposed
to other communities what are the
patterns you see I can also have them
you know like I said look at do
evaluations on their software in
consideration of how that impacts a
community how that impacts the
environment how that impacts individuals
CT is not always defined I think there's
people who really who really lean into
mostly like the algorithms devoid of how
those algorithms are designed with
specific communities in mind it's more
you know they think of these things as
though they are completely separate from
the culture from which they are created
like you were talking about all this
technology G that's everywhere was
developed by CIS white men so you know
what does it mean then to develop this
technology develop these algorithms with
a broader understanding of society in
mind when you are developing them yeah I
wonder if we can actually dive into that
a little bit more because the way that
computational thinking is discussed is
typically in relation to solving a
problem like a math problem or something
not necessarily to solving larger Equity
related issues and in fact computational
thinking is often not really discussed
in relation to equity problems or just
equity in general I'm wondering if you
could like elaborate on those
intersections more computational
thinking to me is where we can bring in
the understanding of equity into
computer science by exploring these
different ideas so for instance if we're
talking about algorithms just being
mindful of how you're designing these
algorithms and who is designing these
algorithms so who is creating this do
they understand their own privilege
their own biases are they developing
this algorithm within a team then if
it's patterns what kind of patterns are
you looking for and where are you
looking for them how are you abstracting
those patterns by abstraction I mean
like you are removing information you
deem as unimportant you are focusing on
the important data what are the
decisions that go into that abstraction
as to what is important and what isn't
important when you're looking at data
and then evaluation as I mentioned is
like a huge place where I think a lot of
these ideas of equity can come into
place oh decomposition I forgot like
breaking down a problem into its
different pieces just how you break down
a problem as to again like what you feel
is essential to that problem helps
design the way that you solve that
problem it's really about focusing on
what lens you're using in creating what
you think the problem is and that lens
is also useful When developing a
solution I do like to incorporate the
dispositions that iste and cstas and
these are old these are from like 2011
but I still think they're important
because of what I witnessed in the
Makerspace this idea of you know the
discomfort with ambivalence and
open-endedness and this again is an
equity issue I really do think these
dispositions are important because I
think but I want them to be used
appropriately like you should use
dispositions to shape what you want the
environment to be like for your students
I think we get into danger when we user
dispositions in terms of assessment like
does my student have computational
thinking skills and then you know can
they persevere right it's like that
whole idea of grit and when you have
students who are facing so much in their
lives in terms of racism misogyny just
systemic oppression you don't want to
approach these dispositions in a way of
like oh well you know you're scoring low
on perseverance or anything like that
it's more for the instructor to really
think about like what environment am I
creating to make sure you can encourage
these dispositions to take place I think
that's what's important when we're
talking about ideas of equity and
computational thinking how does this
conversation kind of relate to or
diverge from the UCLA computer science
Equity project the way it relates in
terms of my work and we have various
projects at the Cs Equity project and my
colleague Gene Roo does a lot of work
around student voice in computer science
education and so the work that she does
definitely applies with what I've just
been talking about but I also do think
it applies in the work that I've been
doing with Julie flappen around these
more institutional structures this
implementation like how to implement
computer science equitably in that we
want to make sure that we don't just
roll out computer science in California
in a way that is for instance like just
say like it's a graduation requirement
everyone needs to take computer science
without really considering like what
that means so like what I just discussed
in terms of like assessment and
culturally responsive pedagogy if those
things aren't in place then what we're
doing is exacerbating the inequities
that already exist within the
educational system and what's exciting
about computer science at least in
California is that it's it's pretty
nascent so we have an opportunity now to
carve our own path and it's a way for us
to really as Julie says kind of like
bake equity in make sure it's it's part
of the foundation of what we're doing
and really intentionally go and build
this path so that when CS you know if it
is a requirement one day it's done in a
way that students are assessed if they
have to be assessed in a way that takes
in mind who they are and isn't
reinforcing biases that are already in
place and that they're getting a
computer science education that is
culturally responsive that is important
to making sure that we're not again just
exacerbating these inequities that are
already in place one of the issues that
I've kind of thought out loud on this
podcast about is like the different
images of curriculum where some people
see curriculum as like discrete subject
areas or as content knowledge or as as
learning specific standards or concepts
and practices but then others view
curriculum as social reproduction or
social deconstruction or trying to make
improvements like whether it's
deconstructing it and then rebuilding it
in like a new way and so it's more
Equity focused and so there's this like
butting of heads that happens between
the people who tend to lean more towards
notes should just focus on the content
and then other people who are like No it
should focus on improving Society in
some way and because they're using kind
of the same words like computational
thinking but they mean different things
then it's like they're unable to see
like oh we're actually talking about two
separate things even though we're using
the same vocabulary so in that scale
research practice partnership one thing
we did as a community throughout the
research practice partnership was Define
equity and we did it at the start of the
research practice partner set we did it
about two years after that and than we
did it a year after that and this
practice of defining it together as a
community it provided us with like this
foundational Language by which we all
knew what we were talking about when we
used the word Equity because equities
really gotten watered down lately right
like everybody uses that word but we all
could talk about what it meant in the
same way and then but it also provided
like this place for discussion and it
was difficult discussions like really
uncomfortable discussions but there are
discussions that need to be had and I
think providing these kinds of spaces
for educators to come together and
Define these terms like Equity like
computational thinking for the very
reasons you're talking about because
it's really difficult for us to all go
in a Direction together if what we're
coming from it from completely different
ways and just this process of Us coming
together and like defining Equity there
was so much dialogue that had taken
place to really understand and where
other people were coming from it really
solidified us as a group I feel like
because we had this shared understanding
and also because we had these
conversations with one another I really
appreciate you saying that I think it
recently came out there was an episode I
did on a article by Proctor where they
were talking about how like they had
different definitions of computer
science and when they're talking about
how to implement across K-12 in a
district like they just they were
talking about the same thing in
different ways and they didn't realize
that so it would have helped to Define
it so totally agree with you like it
makes sense I just wish like politicians
and like people in society would sit
down and talk about what do these terms
mean instead of just like using
buzzwords and throwing memes around that
just upset other groups of people yeah
none of these things are terms I think
that we can just Define it and walk away
like they they are living words and yeah
this is why we defined equity in 2019
before covid before the murder of George
Floyd before the Insurrection so you
know defining it after that and then
defining it again and I think there's
been a lot of changes you know like Roe
v Wade and stuff like that who are going
to make us rethink how we Define equity
one more time these are terms that you
have to Define and redefine and redefine
because we are approaching these words
very differently especially the word
equity which has become kind of this
like almost nothing word because
everyone's using it in totally different
ways yeah and I think that's a part of
like Paulo Freddie's pedagogy the press
that is often
misunderstood or not thought about
enough is like there is that dialogue
between oppressor and oppressed but it's
a continuous dialogue that you need to
keep revisiting it it's not like all
right we had our discussion and
everything's solved cool we can move on
and never have to come back to this
problem again yeah and I mean that's
what Equity work is right like there's
never going to be a time when we're like
well everything's Equitable like it's
done now like I mean obviously there's
goals and there's outcomes like we want
that outcome where you know you can't
tell who took computer science from
their demographics that is definitely
something where we want to reach but
it's really about the process it's
really about like looking at where these
gaps exist and what are we doing that is
causing these Equity gaps where are the
problems because there's always going to
be an equity Gap there's never going to
be complete so it is always this process
of looking at the data analyzing where
we are and figuring out where we want to
go a quick short story so one day when I
was in high school I was speaking to my
band director and was like oh what'd you
do this weekend he's like oh I did some
renovation work around the house and it
was like oh that must be have been
pretty boring and he's like oh no
actually I really enjoy it because I'm
able to see the results instantaneously
when I throw the paint on the wall I can
see the result and then it's done and
what he said is it differs significantly
from teaching band where it sometimes
takes several years before the thing
that you are working on all of a sudden
makes an improvement like over time when
it comes to Performance and whatnot and
so he actually really liked working on
those little things because it can be
difficult to see how your efforts are
going to pay off way down the road now
the same thing can happen with Equity
work in terms of like you can't see this
like instantaneous and we're done brush
it off just like through the paint on
the wall and you never have to come back
to it well when it comes to the equity
work though it can be really draining
because there is not that resolution and
it just kind of keeps going so
long-winded way of getting to this
question which is how do you prevent
yourself from like burning out when
there's so many demands just on being an
educator and a researcher and then like
especially with working on Equity work
which is can be draining at times
because it does never end I do think
there's little wind
I can focus on
[Music]
School leader it could be it could just
be you know one an uptick on one data
point or something you really have to
celebrate the tiny wins because they're
tiny and they will be Tiny But like they
are big for some kids somewhere so those
are the things that you really have to
focus on in addition like I make sure to
work out like every day and I try to
work out as hard as possible to get all
the stress and anxiety out I meditate I
play with my kids I try to go on Hikes
it is draining work you know one of the
concerns I have is like what I see
happening to school leaders is that they
feel like they don't have agency that
you know they're just a cog in the
machine kind of thing sometimes because
they are part of a system that can
perpetuate oppression and they sort of
don't feel like they have the ability to
make changes that is what happens when
you focus on the bigger picture only and
like oh my God we're not making big
gains but you know I specifically
remember like this one kid in my maker
space saying like oh I know I want to go
to college and I know I want to do
computer science now like that kid was
maybe 15 years ago but I still remember
him because I'm like that was a
difference for that one kid that was
like that one kid like you have to find
your meaning and for me that was like
meaning and it's not like because I feel
like all kids should major in computer
science and go to college it's more that
I helped that kid find his path and you
know he's a Latino he was somebody who
wasn't one of the represented students
so really focusing on you know those
tiny little wins are the only way that I
think we're gonna survive doing this
Equity work constantly yeah I appreciate
that I am privileged in that like the
content that I create that's really
available like whether there's the
lesson plans of boot up or this podcast
or whatever like it can spread to a lot
of people and have potential impact but
I don't see that impact because I'm not
in the classroom and I don't hear
teachers respond it wasn't until csta
National this summer where like people
were like hey I recognize your voice
like I listen to your podcast I'm like
whoa people listen like
I just I don't know because it doesn't
feel like I get that immediate responses
like when I worked in the classroom when
I was working one-on-one with a kid you
could see that like engagement and
whatnot so it's a different kind of yeah
I feel bad Jared like I was in your
podcast and I don't ever like I think
maybe once and it was because it was a
paper that like we had written but like
I mean they're all so good so I'll be
sure to remember to like call you out on
Twitter so you get that little win that
little bit of endorphin somebody
listened
nobody listened yeah it's I don't know
it's been a weird like this last year I
started like sharing gaming and drumming
stuff like on my YouTube channel and
whatnot that has been weird as well
because like I'm at almost a million
views now and it's like it doesn't feel
like there's hundreds of thousands of
people who have engaged with my content
but there has been which is neat I mean
can I ask you a question yeah so that is
something I want to learn more from you
about so I talked about the ways that
like you know I work out I hike you know
I have my art background but it has been
so hard for me to really get back into
that like my life has really been just
really like computer science work and
family and I've just been so impressed
with how you do the drumming the gaming
the Cs educations like stuff and you
still read research how do you do that
well part of it is not having children
so that makes it so I have a lot more
time than my peers sure that's like a
huge like one of the number one things
my wife is also a very busy type a
individual and I mean that in the best
way possible so because we're both so
busy like we do schedule in time for
each other and then outside of that I
schedule in I'm planning on gaming on
like Monday Wednesday and Saturday
evenings with with one of my friends
who's across the country like I try and
make sure I do that and like with the
music side of things it's the same thing
like on Saturdays and Sundays I try and
stream in the morning and it holds me
accountable because now I'm going to
practice publicly like it's making it so
that I am almost being like forced to do
that like with the podcast when I do the
unpacking scholarship episodes one of
the reasons why I do that is because if
I don't have a guest lined up cool I can
just release an episode on my own it's
not reliant on anyone don't have to put
pressure Etc but the other reason why is
it forces me to stay on top of like
Recent research and to just keep
learning and reading because otherwise
I'll find something else to do because
there's always a billion things to do
but when it comes down to it like one of
the things that I really learned in the
last two years in particular like during
covet is I need to have a clear
separation between what I do in my 40
hour work week and what I do in my
leisure and so I'm trying to have very
distinct start and end points for that
and so like in the mornings like I'll do
workout out like you were saying but
then like I'd say I start at eight
o'clock working eight hour a day I will
then do cardio at the end of the day to
kind of put like a cap on that and say
now I'm done for the day now I'm gonna
focus on doing other stuff like video
editing for the gaming content or like
playing video games or hanging out with
my wife or whatever so having that
separation has helped because I am the
kind of person who won't stop working
I'm technically even though it's like
Leisure I'm working on gaming and
drumming stuff and putting out social
media content like a lot but I
previously would only do computer
science stuff non-stop but because now
I'm doing multiple things it keeps it
fresh so when I come back to the Cs
stuff like I'm like oh this is something
different and new that I wasn't doing on
the weekend and then when it's on the
weekend or the week night I'm like oh
now I get to work on this other thing
some of the challenges like now I love
working from home but I do think it's
making it challenging for me to like
make hard stops as to when work time is
and when not work
yeah one of the things that I also did
was I actually had the office in a
separate location from my leisure and so
when I'd go into that office this is
privilege of having the space for that
then I was work mode and when I exited
the office I would shut the door and I'm
done for the day or the weekend or
whatever and I would not focus on that
now I've kind of put myself into a
little bit of a pickle and that like
there's two drum sets in here and a
marimba and like this is where I like I
make music and have fun this is also
where I game but it's also where I work
so I try and like do my best to make
sure that like I am still mentally
separating those and I'm not thinking
about work outside of it and I'm not
thinking about like drumming and gaming
when I'm working Etc but sometimes
easier said than done oh for sure for
sure I don't know if I can do that but I
can try yeah I mean like you mentioned
though with working out but also the
meditation side of things like that has
helped to try and refocus thoughts
whether it's like I'm gonna do a
gratitude meditation so for 20 minutes
I'm just going to focus on things I'm
grateful for or or focus on an object
like my dog and just like petting her or
just like even just sitting outside and
looking at the birds who are like eating
from the bird feeder like that kind of
attention training almost has been
really helpful for being able to focus
my mind on work or Focus my mind on
Leisure and be intentional in that
moment yeah I wonder I mean I am such an
Ave
later I wonder what a mess I would be
without it like has this like because
it's I feel like my mind is chaos like
with it so maybe I don't know it
probably has helped me in ways that I
don't see yeah I mean I didn't do any of
it until I went to a therapist because I
was like ours on the edge of suicidality
and in like high school and undergrad I
was suicidal for the majority of that
period of time and when I went to a
therapist she had me start doing yoga
and I did it an hour in the morning an
hour in the evening and I did that every
single day for weeks and like just to
feel the change in my body and whatnot
like I know what the before and the
after is like and so I am I try to be
very intentional about working out about
getting my sleep about eating healthy
about meditating because I know where it
will take me when I don't do that kind
of stuff and so I'm extremely grateful
even though like you're saying like even
though I do all these things like I
still get stressed out Etc but I know
I'd be in a much worse place if I didn't
do all these things yeah totally no it's
it's so important for me to do every day
and it's a really it's not a good day
when I don't do those things yep for
sure yeah I'm the same way I guess kind
of like building off of that how do you
practice or iterate on your own
abilities like whether it's in research
as an educator or even just in Leisure
I'm a bit of a practice nerd so that's
why I ask what do you mean you're a
practice nerd like I took a Kinesiology
sports psychology class because I'm
interested in like the art of like
Improvement whether it's
self-improvement or practicing and so
I'm like constantly trying to figure out
ways to refine either my drumming or my
gaming or even my work and like how to
iterate on that I mean in terms of my
work I work closely with really
experienced people Julie Jean and Jane
looking at the way that they were I've
learned a lot from them the interaction
with my partners that are in county
offices has also done that you know this
is hearkening back to my like love of
school and the school structure I need
to take classes once in a while like
I've recently took the Nikki
Washington's cultural competence and
Computing course I've taken UT Austin's
on Equity minded computer science
implementation one way I have gotten
myself to do my art is when I take art
classes so like because it exposes me it
makes me read stuff it makes me listen
to things and it makes me really reflect
on my own practice in a way that I
really struggle to do on my own yeah
that accountability yeah it's the
accountability yeah my wife started
seeing a personal trainer like in like a
group context kind of thing and like
that for her has been like the to hold
her accountable to make sure she's
consistent with it and like same thing
for me when I would go to classes like
you're saying it just it makes it so
much easier to stay on track basically
like I'm in total dork for like the apps
that track stuff like I do Peloton and
like I you know it totally works for me
where I'm you know this is how many
minutes I've worked out this year and I
want to make sure I meet meet this
amount of minutes by the end of the year
and that also really helps is just I
hate to be this like cheesy but the
smart goals really do help in making me
achieve things yeah I mean I I do
morning and evening Reflections and I
like track quantitative and qualitative
data and like Mark here's my level of
anxiety right now and like here's how
much sleep I got and like trying to do I
do quarterly Reflections where I go back
and review that data and I've done it
now for almost three years I did it like
the other weekend and when I was
watching all the videos the other
weekend I was like man I've like
improved like 20 on this or like Etc
like it's really cool to see that and I
wouldn't have known that if like it was
probably a month ago I met my therapist
I was like yeah I feel like I haven't
been like doing great but then when I
actually looked at the data and I'm like
oh wait this is like way better than it
was two years ago it's interesting yeah
no I love that you do that that's so
awesome and you know I really should
incorporate like evening meditation too
because I only do morning but it's nerd
stuff but it really does help me be
accountable in ways just that not doing
it would not do yeah I don't know it's a
bit of an extreme but it works for me
and I'm happier as a result
it's a bit of an extreme but I love I
love that it works for you yeah there's
a podcast and a book called 10 happier
and it talks about meditations by Dan
Harris which is not to be confused with
Sam Harris who also does meditation
stuff and a bunch of other things but
yeah if I can get 10 happier during this
like morning and evening reflection sure
I'll do it 10 is a big percent like
that's a lot of percent yeah I'll take
it
I'm curious like if we think of a field
as a whole there are a lot of issues in
education going on I'm curious what's
something that you feel like is holding
back the field or Educators and then if
you could wave a magic wand what would
you do to kind of fix that it's a little
bit of what I talked about before the
Educators feel like they have a lack of
agency at the moment and there's a lot
of burnout yeah and it's totally
understandable this stuff is going on
because there is so much that is out of
their control and the political
environment has made the day-to-day life
of Educators at times a bit of a
Minefield so like it's you know the
magic wand I think it this does go back
to what I was talking about before is
like the coming together it sounds
strange but I do think the coming
together and the defining of terms like
the coming together and talking about
like you know what do you mean when
you're saying you want the best for your
your kid having that conversation with
school leaders and teachers and parents
and like really I think there's just
such a lack of dialogue that is leading
to this real Chasm that you know
Educators just they aren't appreciated
for the work that they do and I think if
people understood what their day-to-day
was like there would be way more
understanding in terms of just
recognizing how difficult their job is
and what they're doing I think that
people understanding the decisions that
administrators have to make and you know
for folks to understand like what
parents go through like and what their
lives at home are like and the different
struggles that they're experiencing
we're not in community and I think these
dialogues are what could really help in
terms of really making people feel that
we're in this together and I think that
would like in some ways help with the
burnout just because I think we would
lend a lot more grace to people and I
would also hope that the dialogue would
also kind of change this idea of
hierarchy that exists within educational
structures that makes decision making
come more from just more of a
community-based kind of decision making
but one that hears the voices of those
who you don't normally hear from not
just the loudest ones so in May of 2020
there was this moment where I felt like
there was actually going to be a shift
in discourse around Educators because I
started seeing parents on social media
be like I get it my kid is difficult to
work with you're right they are really
hard to teach this is because like
parents were having to teach their kids
in like April May of 2020. and then over
the summer it shifted back to teachers
are babysitters why aren't you back in
classrooms Etc your health is not as
important as me being able to go to work
and it it was really kind of
disheartening to see that like profound
shift happen for the positive and then
just immediately get probably worse than
it was in terms of how Society in
general kind of viewed and talked about
Educators and and their role or
importance I mean I think that it's a
reflection on the lack of social safety
net we have in place for anyone whether
that be a parent or it be a teacher we
want to blame somebody when in general
it's the system but we want to be able
to point our finger at a thing at a
person and say you know it is your fault
that I am going through this it's a lot
easier than dismantling A system that is
put in place and by a system like
capitalism like you're not going to
dismantle capitalism so it's a lot
easier to say this is my kids teacher's
fault they aren't doing what they're
supposed to do and I think this has been
it's no surprise that like the last
three years have been just really
challenging for everyone and I think
that's why you know politics have gotten
the way it has why what you're talking
about in terms of you know this dialogue
around teachers it's a lot of this
wanting to find you know a tangible
thing that we can blame when it's the
system in which we exist and you know
we're the fish in the water it's really
hard for us to see outside of that yeah
that's a really interesting point it's
kind of like a through line in the
conversation like parents students feel
a lack of agency when it comes to the
educational system but then your point
about administrators feeling that which
is fascinating because like teachers be
the administrators is like the people
with all the power but then the admin
are like I have no power I have no
agency but then like even higher up like
politicians are like but I want to get
things done but I can't because of a b
and c like it just seems like a profound
lack of agency or all around yeah we all
kind of feel like our hands are tied in
some way right A lot of it I would argue
Doug comes back to capitalism is why our
hands are tied in lots of ways it's a
system that really limits the ways that
we can move because we are constrained
by generating wealth for a small section
of the population yeah Henry Jude what
do you know there's education is not a
social good it's all about pleasing the
stakeholders come on or the shareholders
totally it that's totally it
unfortunately
yeah no and I think you know in the way
that we talk about it now like that is
the subtext to a lot of our
conversations of education is all around
that yeah well I mean I think computer
science as a whole in the K-12 like
really can be borderline problematic
when it comes to that like it's so I
don't know in bed with corporate culture
and like fulfilling corporate needs like
the most common argument for well why
should we have K-12 CS well there's all
these open jobs and it's like okay well
that's kind of a problem if you feel
that that's the only need for a computer
science at this point right it's such a
tricky thing and I mean as someone who
you know full disclosure has taken money
from these large tech companies in order
to do my research it is such a
complicating factor in what we do and I
think we as a CS education Community
have to really think about what our
purpose is when we're doing this you
know it is also when we were talking
about Equity because we can say like
look it's these jobs and they're
high-paying jobs and it's black and
brown students low-income students rural
students can have access to these kinds
of jobs and they would have high income
potential and change the trajectory of
their financial lives so it's very easy
for us to get tracked into that I think
what's important is for us to go back to
that idea of like how pervasive
technology has become and think about it
Beyond just jobs but really like wait
this is how I communicate with people is
it letting me communicate with them in a
way that is healthy for me and for my
family this is how I go shopping is this
really the way that I really want to be
thinking about purchasing goods and
stuff I just went back to capitalism see
how like inside and is but like it's now
really impact democracy and the way that
democracy worked right so I think that
is the way that we really have to think
of Cs education beyond the sphere of
what happens on the economic plane and
really how it's impacting us on the
social plan on the communal plane yeah
and there's the layers of impact too so
your point about like if somebody's in a
low socioeconomic status and they're
able to get CS education and like
potentially bump up into a Higher One
like almost immediately upon graduation
that's fantastic if I reflect on the
conversation that I had with Kimberly
Scott and like a paper that she wrote
with another author who's escaping me
where they talk about how like Cs and
Tech culture is almost a form of
sharecropping and so like how yeah you
get into a high-paying job that is going
to be abusive to you then it's like well
is it really that much of an improvement
and so it's like it's important to look
at those different layers and like that
level of impact that it has in each of
those layers yeah and I think like Kamal
Bob has talked about it as like
technology ghettos and like what jobs
are these black and Indigenous students
getting are they getting you know just
these low-level programming jobs that
yes provide them with money but then
like you said is it like a new form of
sharecropping that like you know it's
this is white male at the top that is
leading the direction of where this
programming is going curious do you have
anything that you're currently working
on that you could use some help with
like a listener might be able to assist
with it's nothing I think anyone can
help me with
okay and this is a problem that Julie
and I have been like talking about since
forever but the data that we have is so
limiting that we really don't know not
just who is taking computer science but
who is teaching computer science and
what kind of education have they had
like how have they trained to be a
computer science teacher I mean if
someone listening to this can't solve
that problem they should definitely
contact me but you know we're just not
collecting that data and I do think
that's going to be incredibly useful to
us in understanding who is getting the
computer science education and what kind
of education in computer science are
they getting and really understanding
how teachers are understanding what
computer science is what computational
thinking is and how they Implement that
in the classroom we have a lot of
qualitative small scale studies but
there's just no large set of data that
can really tell us for California
Statewide or even nationally like what
that landscape looks like yeah I mean
that would be interesting my guess is
most teachers are in service already and
are starting to learn CS just based off
of what I'm seeing with boot up but it
would be really interesting to do like a
survey get open-ended responses but then
like use Corpus Linguistics techniques
to actually look at what are the
patterns of discourse across like the
different types of backgrounds and see
like what emerges from that that would
be a fascinating study to take a look at
it would be really really cool and
Incredibly useful and probably super
expensive but
yeah such as research
such as research do you have any
questions for myself for the field my
big question for you is like how do you
do all this stuff as someone from the
outside being like Oh my God like how
does Drake get all that done because you
know I really want to like I said engage
in other parts of you know my art and
stuff like that but it has been such a
challenge but I think I can draw clearer
boundaries maybe than I have been doing
so yeah and find ways to combine things
when possible like I said like not
having kids makes so I have a lot more
time but this morning I did upper body
workout and I was in this room doing the
upper body workout while I was reviewing
a stream that I did previously at three
times speed and I would walk over to my
keyboard and press M on it to put a
marker into Premiere so that way I would
know oh this is a clip that I want to
use and then I'd go back to working out
and so I was able to get through like
three hours worth of content in my
hour-long workout and so it was
combining the two things into one so
that is another way that I will do that
as well like when I I'm sharing social
media posts like for like the upcoming
week which I usually do like on Tuesday
evenings I'm reviewing videos on one
screen while I'm like just dragging and
dropping the files into the like the
social media scheduler so I'm doing two
things at once it doesn't take any like
thought to like oh I'm just assigning it
into this and then dragging into this
like and I can review stuff while I'm
doing that that makes it so that I have
more time to do the edits and things
like that so like finding combinations
certainly makes my life so that I can
get more done in the same amount of time
if I had like done it separately if that
makes sense I mean I don't think I could
work out and do anything at the same
time that's amazing to me I had done
this and it's been successful I should
do more of it which is drawing with my
kids and at the same time like we're all
drawing and I get to practice my art at
the same time so you know that's a
really good example of something I
should maybe practice more of is yeah
this is one of the things I'm grateful
to you for is doing these podcasts
around papers because I don't have time
to read papers anymore but like more
people should do the Jared O'Leary so I
can listen to a paper while I'm like
doing the dishes or folding laundry
honestly I see that as a future for a
lot of Scholars and like a really
potentially lucrative one Andrew
huberman is a neuroscientist at Stanford
and so like he has this full
professorship of responsibilities but
outside of that he does a podcast and I
think it's called The heberman Lab
podcast and he's got over a million Subs
on YouTube for that podcast so like he's
potentially making six-figure kind of
income just doing that podcast where he
basically will either an interview I
guess like I do or he will like
synthesize like do a meta review of
here's what the scholarship says about
sleep or here's what the scholarship
says about like digestive track Etc and
like having listened to it I'm like oh
this is what I've been doing except like
I tend to focus on like one paper per
episode and like he'll do multiple poll
within a particular theme whereas I'll
do it like released over multiple weeks
and so like I honestly see more the this
style of communication becoming more
popular down the road because I had a
chapter that I wrote for like an Oxford
or ratlage handbook and from when I
submitted the first draft to when I
actually got a like a book in hand it
was three years whereas like if I record
a podcast episode today I can release it
this afternoon like it's so much easier
to have that like really quick kind of
response to things that like a
traditional publishing route it just
doesn't that's a really good point I
mean I look forward to these days like
where it would be that fast when it is
research I am reading you know it's two
years after the fact a lot of times like
you're like you said three years after
the back and like so much other research
has happened since then yeah I look
forward to that time and it's just so
much easier to consume than reading a
paper at least for people like me who
are busy parents yeah no I hear you I'm
a huge fan of cast I see this being a
good future direction we just have to
figure out how to do it in a way that is
helpful and so I've been attempting to
do that you've been doing great at it I
really appreciate it and thanks so much
for the work that you do because it is
helpful for folks like me who cannot sit
down and read the paper yeah I
appreciate that was there anything you
wish that I I know it was a while ago
but the paper that I did an episode on
that you helped write like was there
anything you're like oh I wish Jared
would have talked about this more or
this less this paper is a lot of the
work that we've done around school
administrators in implementation issues
in terms of like Equitable Computer
Science Education one of the things you
said was maybe it's not what we're
striving for that's the problem but how
we're doing it so like the problem not
being and this goes back to our
conversation before like this kind of
outcomes driven approach to equity and
education you know it's not that
outcomes aren't important like they're
obviously they're what give us Direction
but the process in which we engage in
this work is just as if not more
important that you have to ensure that
Equity like it's not just part of like
what you're aiming towards but that when
we're doing this work with
administrators that administrators don't
feel like you know there's some sort of
distinction between researchers and
themselves or that when we're doing work
with parents and community that there is
again that they feel like there's some
sort of hierarchy between the researcher
or the administrator and the parent a
lot of this work is US understanding
like doing the work the internal the
difficult internal work we have to do
the work of dialogue which is also
really difficult so it's not just this
like oh now we've got the right
percentages of kids taking computer
science that that path on which we get
there is just as important if not more
in building up what it means to do
Equitable Computer Science Education it
is US walking the walk that we're
talking about doing yeah and I think
beginning that dialogue with like shared
definitions and conversations and
whatnot I think that really helps set
the tone in a conversational way rather
than an attacking like you're doing
things not my way you need to do things
my way yeah absolutely absolutely and
there is always that kind of divide
between the researcher and the
practitioner the parents and the
practitioner like those are always going
to be in place because of the roles that
each takes on but it is through dialogue
that I think we can make those
differences a little bit smaller yeah
because like especially when it comes to
Echo to work totally on board but like
how we say it and when we say it can
have a huge impact on whether or not
somebody will choose to engage with us
absolutely and this is something I'm
going learning like I'm not going to
pretend like I'm an expert on this like
this is something I am learning every
day and back to your question about like
how do you you know practice on this
stuff I am not a fan of uncomfortable
conversations I really hate conflict so
Equity work is really challenging for me
because of it because I do struggle in
those kinds of conversations but it is
like constant practice and it's
stretching yourself a little bit beyond
what your comfort zone is in order to
really get meaningful dialogue with
someone else are there any questions
that I haven't asked that you want to
talk about you asked me like how is your
work on Equity centered teaching and
learning informed your understanding of
computational thinking in schools I
think if we overlap these ideas of
equity center teaching with
computational thinking I'm hoping my
intention is that this ethos that exists
at least in Silicon Valley of like move
fast and break things that we can kind
of shift that to like let's move slowly
and like more thoughtfully and iterate
constantly I mean that's not catchy like
move fast and break things but like move
slowly thoughtfully and iterate
constantly is not going to become a
catchphrase but I do think like really
thinking about computational thinking
with this Equity lens and we start doing
that in schools is really going to shift
how we develop digital Tools in thinking
like what am I making for whom am I
making it who does it benefit who does
it harm yeah it's not as catchy but
maybe if we turn it into a song no I'm
working on it it let's Workshop it let's
Workshop it it's yeah yeah make it into
a little Tick Tock Musical and I'll do a
dance to it and yeah yeah it helps the
algorithm
where might people go to connect with
you in the organizations you work with
I'm on Twitter at
RH
I'm LinkedIn at rha-d-a-d you should
check out the Cs Equity project and you
should check out CS for CA Computer
Science for California got a lot of
resources that are not just for
Californians at cs4ca.org or at CS for
CA on Twitter and with that that
concludes this week's episode of the
cska podcast friendly reminder you can
find links to many of the resources that
we mentioned as well as other related
podcasts in the show notes at
jarrodolary.com but I really hope you
enjoyed this episode if you did please
consider sharing with somebody else or
leaving a rating or review on whatever
app that you're listening to this on
stay tuned next week for another episode
until then I hope you're all staying
safe and are having a wonderful week
Guest Bio
Roxana Hadad, PhD is Associate Director of the Computer Science Equity Project at UCLA Center X. She is the project director for Seasons of CS, a statewide CSforCA initiative to bring equity-minded computer science professional learning to educators in every region of California. She also manages SCALE-CA, a research-practice partnership focused on scaling teacher professional development, building the capacity of education leaders for local implementation, and contributing to the research base on expanding equity-minded computer science teaching and learning opportunities for California. Previously, she was the Director of Math, Science, and Technology at the Center for College Access and Success (CCAS) at Northeastern Illinois University in Chicago. At CCAS, she developed and promoted STEM-focused opportunities for underrepresented Chicago Public School students and was PI on NSF-funded research examining formative assessment for computational thinking and cultural responsiveness in makerspaces. Roxana received her doctorate in Educational Psychology from the University of Illinois at Chicago, her master’s degree from the Interactive Telecommunications Project at the Tisch School of the Arts at New York University, and her bachelor’s degree from the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Because of the opportunities computing has provided Roxana as a Latina and an artist, she is committed to ensuring more students have access to quality computing education
Resources/Links Relevant to This Episode
Other podcast episodes that were mentioned or are relevant to this episode
Applications of Affinity Space Characteristics in [Computer Science] Education
In this episode I unpack my (2020) publication titled “Applications of affinity space characteristics in music education,” which has twelve characteristics of informal learning spaces that I will discuss in relation to computer science education.
A Revaluation of Computational Thinking in K–12 Education: Moving Toward Computational Literacies
In this episode I unpack Kafai and Proctor’s (2021) publication titled “A revaluation of computational thinking in K–12 education: Moving toward computational literacies,” which summarizes three key framings of computational thinking and proposes computational literacies in place of computational thinking.
Computational Literacies with Michael Horn
In this interview with Michael Horn, we discuss computational literacies vs computational thinking, power in literacy, cultural imperialism, the impact of programming language on identity, the intersections of music and CS, and so much more.
Defining and Designing Computer Science Education in a K12 Public School District
In this episode I unpack Proctor, Bigman, and Blikstein’s (2019) publication titled “Defining and designing computer science education in a K12 public school district,” which serves as a case study of a district’s processes and tensions developing a plan for implementing computer science across K-12.
How to Get Started with Computer Science Education
In this episode I provide a framework for how districts and educators can get started with computer science education for free.
In this episode I unpack an excerpt from Schubert’s (1986) book titled “Curriculum: Perspective, paradigm, and possibility,” which describes different examples, intents, and criticisms of “images” or “characterizations” of curriculum.
Intersections of Equity, Making, and Computer Science with Roxana Hadad
In this interview with Roxana Hadad, we discuss the blurring of formal and informal learning within makerspaces and culture, how Roxana’s understanding of education evolved over time, feeling lost when having too much choice with one’s learning, the intersections of makerspaces and equity, problematizing discourse and definitions around computational thinking and computer science, preventing burnout while working on many different projects, feeling a lack of agency in education, the future of communication for academics, and so much more.
Making Sense of Making: Defining Learning Practices in MAKE Magazine
In this episode I unpack Brahms and Crowley’s (2016) publication titled “Making sense of making: Defining learning practices in MAKE magazine,” which is a content analysis that uses communities of practice as a framework for exploring maker practices evident within MAKE magazine.
In this episode I unpack Bowler and Champagne’s (2009) publication titled “Mindful makers: Question prompts to help guide young peoples' critical technical practices in maker spaces in libraries, museums, and community-based youth organizations,” which "examines question prompts as a means to scaffold reflection and reflexivity in the design, development, and use of technological artifacts in maker spaces for youth at public libraries, museums, and community-based organizations" (abstract).
Pedagogy of the Oppressed
This episode is the start of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 1, which discusses how oppressors maintain control over the oppressed. Following unpacking scholarship episodes discuss what this looks like in education and how educators can adopt a “pedagogy of the oppressed” to break cycles of oppression.
This episode is episode two of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 2, which discusses the “banking” approach to education that assumes students are repositories of information, and then proposes a liberatory approach to education that focuses on posing problems that students and teachers collaboratively solve. If you haven’t listened to the discussion on the first chapter, click here.
This episode is episode three of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 3, which discusses the importance of dialogue when engaging in liberatory practices. This episode builds off the previous unpacking scholarship episodes on chapter one and chapter two, so make sure you listen to those episodes before jumping in here.
This episode is the final episode of a miniseries that unpacks Paulo Freire’s (1970) book “Pedagogy of the Oppressed.” This particular episode unpacks chapter 4, which synthesizes the concepts introduced in the previous chapters and discusses the difference between anti-dialogical and dialogical practices in education (and at large). This episode builds off the previous unpacking scholarship episodes on chapter one, chapter two, and chapter three so make sure you listen to those episodes before jumping in here.
Preparing School Leaders to Advance Equity in Computer Science Education
In this episode I unpack Flapan et al.’s (2021) publication titled “Preparing school leaders to advance equity in computer science education,” which provides some suggestions and resources for preparing administrators for advancing equity work in K-12 CS education.
Reconceptualizing “Music Making:” Music Technology and Freedom in the Age of Neoliberalism
In this episode I unpack Benedict and O’Leary’s (2019) publication titled “Reconceptualizing “music making:” Music technology and freedom in the age of Neoliberalism,” which explores the use of computer science practices to counter neoliberal influence on education.
Read the paper Roxana mentioned titled “Practicing formative assessment for computational thinking in making environments”
Learn more about the book, podcast, and app titled “Ten Percent Happier”
Read a paper I coauthored that problematizes neoliberal influence on schools
Connect with Roxana
Find other CS educators and resources by using the #CSK8 hashtag on Twitter