#CSK8 Visions by Vicky Sedgwick

In this interview with Vicky Sedgwick, we discuss Vicky’s journey into CS education, how Vicky’s pedagogy has changed in virtual environments, advice for designing learning experiences in CS, the importance of integrating CS in other subject areas, recommendations for improving equity and inclusion, building online communities in an age where people are questioning the value of social media, and much more.

  • Welcome back to another episode of the

    CSK8 podcast

    my name is jared o'leary in this week's

    episode i'm interviewing

    vicky sedgwick who has been the host of

    most of the csk8 chats on twitter

    which was actually the inspiration for

    the name of this podcast

    in this discussion we're going to talk

    about vicky's journey into computer

    science education

    as well as how vicky's pedagogy has

    changed in virtual environments due to

    kovid

    and what has stayed the same advice for

    designing learning experiences in

    computer science

    the importance of integrating computer

    science and other subject areas

    some recommendations for improving

    equity and inclusion in the classroom

    and building online communities in an

    age where people are questioning the

    value of social media

    and so much more there are many links in

    this particular show notes and you can

    find

    those by simply clicking the link in the

    app that you're listening to this on

    or by visiting jaredlery.com and

    clicking on podcast

    all right so we're now going to begin

    the interview with vicky introducing

    herself

    i'm vicki sedgwick i'm a k-6 computer

    science teacher in

    the los angeles area and i'm on the

    computer science teachers association

    board of directors

    i'm also involved in writing the teacher

    standards and

    i helped write the csta student

    standards back in 2017

    and i'm involved with the ai for k-12

    project as well

    so if you were to write a story about

    your journey into cs education

    what would the titles of the chapters be

    they would probably be something like

    i always wanted to be a teacher the

    influence of a college roommate

    me a programmer and a serendipity

    we'll just go with those four so

    what are some of the key things that you

    learned in each one of those chapters

    that inform your own approach to cs

    education

    so when i was a child i always wanted to

    be a teacher in fact that's what i

    played all the time with school

    as the teacher and i actually majored

    in elementary education in college

    that's what i was going to do

    so i learned a lot along the way about

    you know how to teach and all of that

    because that's what i majored in and did

    that but then

    my college roommate was a huge influence

    in that

    she introduced me one to computers this

    was way back when i'm

    fairly old this was in the 70s and she

    actually majored in

    i don't know if it was called computer

    science then but she was a major in

    computer science

    and i got very interested in what she

    was doing even it's a programming on

    punched cards and everything back then

    and she lived out in california and she

    introduced me to someone

    who i ended up dating for a while so i

    ended up

    moving to california and kind of getting

    into working with computers

    rather than getting into education right

    out of college

    there weren't as many jobs available

    then and i found better paying job

    initially as a computer operator and i

    worked at the same company my college

    roommate did then

    that company that i worked for did

    operations on many computers

    and then we ended up getting a deck

    system 20 and all of the programmers

    wanted to work on the new computer so i

    ended up having to teach myself to

    program to fix

    the programs that were still running the

    actual programs we were working on we

    worked at a

    medical center and was running those

    programs actually on the mini computers

    and it would break so i had to teach

    myself to program in order to fix them

    because the programmers wanted nothing

    to do with it they wanted to work on the

    new computer

    so that's kind of how i fell into

    programming and i was a programmer for

    years actually

    i worked for that company then i went to

    work for a software company where i

    wrote application software

    for many different industries and i kind

    of got

    back into teaching then but more adults

    at that point i did a lot of the

    training for

    not the customers that bought it but the

    people who were trying to sell our

    software

    i was the trainer for them so i had to

    you know create all the training

    materials and train them

    and i kind of got back into the teaching

    bug

    but then i got married and i had kids

    and

    eventually my job ended up ending and i

    ended up just being a stay-at-home mom

    basically because the company had moved

    and wanted me to move to connecticut and

    i wasn't going to do that

    my husband was in california so i became

    a stay-at-home mom

    and then serendipity kind of stepped in

    because my daughter's computer teacher

    left the school at the school she was at

    and i was asked to fill in

    as a computer teacher just until

    december

    i was at that school for nine years ten

    years something like that so

    it wasn't just until december did they

    not specify which december

    apparently not i guess it was

    initially like an applications course i

    was teaching you know it was

    come in and watch them keyboard for 45

    minutes or teach them how to use

    word and things like that and i found

    that i was bored with that

    and so were the kids right i mean they

    didn't want to type for 45 minutes

    and having been a programmer i went i

    wonder what kids could learn about that

    and that's when i kind of found the csta

    site and found the existing standards at

    that point which were the 2011 standards

    and went okay this says i could teach

    them to do these things let's try that

    and i

    discovered scratch and started actually

    incorporating more and more

    computer science things into what i was

    teaching

    until by the time that school closed

    last year

    i was doing about half the year in

    applications in half in

    cs kind of fell back into teaching and

    now i'm at another school

    as a cs teacher i'm curious your

    experience is

    in industry how has that experience kind

    of

    provided perspective for you while

    working with kids in particular like

    young kids or has it not really

    made that much of an impact on you it

    hasn't except

    that i found even with the adults i was

    teaching

    i had to be pretty explicit in the

    lessons i created

    because these were sales people that

    were trying to sell

    our product but they needed to know how

    to run it

    in order to demo it but they weren't

    people that knew

    these industries so i had to be really

    explicit on

    how to run things and how to do things

    and i've even drawn on some of

    how i created those lessons even in some

    of the lessons i

    started creating for the kid you know it

    was like you shouldn't say you treat

    adults like you know a five-year-old but

    sometimes you have to explain

    like a five-year-old even to adults

    right so and i try not to do that now

    when i

    talk to teachers and they would tell me

    don't tell me like i'm a five-year-old

    or a six-year-old how to do this and so

    some of that has influence but the

    approaches are

    pretty different when i'm teaching kids

    versus

    adults even now when you teach them i

    mean you know you like to treat adults

    as if they have some knowledge of things

    for sure going in though

    if you're trying to teach a cs concept

    and they have no cs background

    it can be helpful to say hey it's okay

    if you don't know anything we'll get you

    there

    so how has your experiences with covid

    either like

    changed or solidified some of your own

    beliefs around

    education cs education or just like a

    general philosophy of education

    i've always believed any kind of

    education but especially cs

    education should be you know really

    hands-on

    and incorporate you know student

    interests in student choice and that has

    not changed with coven in fact it's

    affirmed it even more because

    if you're not meeting those student

    needs and interests they're not going to

    show up for your class

    you know if they can turn the camera off

    they'll turn the camera off

    if i want them engaged i have to give

    them engaging things to do

    and let them do it you know if i'm just

    talking to them

    they're not going to be interested right

    so but the other thing i've

    always liked to do in cs classes since

    probably the second or third year i did

    it was incorporate

    physical computing that i've had to pull

    back on because

    with kovid you know do we have enough

    things to send home for kids to do

    not necessarily we don't have those

    one-to-one physical computing things

    we actually are lucky and that we do

    have one-to-one micro bits so

    if we stay virtual later in the year

    sixth grade will be doing that and we

    can send them a micro bit

    but not all schools do we don't have one

    to one makey makeys

    you know we do some making making stuff

    with younger grades we use ozobots with

    the younger kids we don't have

    one-to-one those

    so we can't send those home so i've had

    to pull back on some of what we do

    from a physical computing perspective

    which is disappointing for me

    because i just see a light bulb go off

    when they do that physical stuff right

    the fact that you know blinking a light

    is so much more effective than

    you know hello world i don't know why

    but it just is you know the kids just

    they light up when they're making that

    physical thing

    do something and i think it also helps

    to teach those concepts of how hardware

    and software work together

    when you're working with something

    physical that you're touching

    so you know that i've had to pull back

    on i still believe it's important

    we can't do it because of the

    restrictions of kovid but i think the

    biggest thing

    is student choice student interest

    and as hands-on as it can be bless me

    more them

    for sure yeah that resonates with my

    approach in the classroom and then

    in the curriculum that i've designed and

    then in the pd and whatnot like it's all

    about just getting people engaged

    around their interest and just diving

    deep into that

    one of the interesting things that i've

    kind of observed over the last few

    months is the change in questions and

    problems that teachers have had

    with going virtual since covid basically

    shut down schools

    so i'm curious how have your questions

    or problems

    evolved or changed over the last few

    months while you've been

    dealing with online environment in march

    when we went virtual

    i was teaching fourth to sixth grade and

    those classes could pretty much continue

    other than the physical computing part

    because at that point we didn't have

    one-to-one devices so

    we didn't send those home so we had to

    kind of change what we did but so much

    of what we did was on scratch

    or platforms like that that they could

    just continue doing

    so they kind of stayed the same in those

    grades but then i was asked to take over

    the primary grades k to two and you just

    have to approach it differently with

    them how do you deal with the kids

    online you know

    engaging you know kindergarten student

    online

    when their attention span isn't that

    long and

    it's just a difficult thing to do and

    now this year

    all our kids have ipads all over k to

    two

    so they can't be in zoom and somewhere

    else at the same

    time right so it becomes this issue of

    how do i do what i used to do

    right it's evolved more now into how do

    i do what i used to do because at the

    end of the year

    we were just kind of trying to keep it

    going right trying to

    finish out the year with k to two we

    actually even pulled back and said cs

    was optional

    so i had less kids engaged and they

    wanted it to be totally asynchronous in

    k to two at the end of the year

    so i just had to create things that they

    could do

    if they wanted to do and they wanted it

    to be

    as offline as it could be so the lesson

    was

    online i did a lot of things actually

    with this hello ruby books

    where i read a chapter in the book we

    used the

    first hello ruby book so i'd read a

    chapter or two and then they would do

    some kind of sequencing thing

    on paper offline then take a picture of

    and turn in

    this year it's changed in that we're now

    it's not optional anymore

    i have to engage them in a zoom meeting

    as well

    as provide lessons and the things they

    do can be online

    we use see-saw and so i can have you

    know actual things that they can

    manipulate

    in seesaw to you know fill out an

    algorithm or something

    it's changed slightly this year in terms

    of our focus

    but for me my bigger concern overall

    always has been the big picture of cs

    because we kind of continued you know

    i'm in a school that

    we still kept cs going but i heard so

    many schools

    say well when we closed in march well

    we're not going to do cs all we're doing

    is the core subjects and

    no cs classes anymore and i've even

    heard this year

    that a lot of schools are struggling to

    where to put it

    they've had to move cs teachers into the

    classrooms because they need more

    teachers because they need

    less kids in the classroom and it's

    become an issue of

    trying to keep cs alive in a lot of

    schools that go on the way you know even

    teachers that i know that are

    enthusiastic about teaching it they may

    have been moved into a classroom so they

    may be teaching it in their classroom

    but the whole school's not getting it

    anymore

    you know so i struggle more with the

    bigger picture like

    my school i'm happy to say is still

    phil's cs is valuable and is still

    teaching it

    and i wish that were the same everywhere

    but because it's not a requirement

    for a lot of schools i think it's been

    put on the back burner

    what have you tried or are you seeing

    other educators in any subject area

    in terms of how to keep k2 in particular

    engaged

    in these virtual spaces when it's

    difficult to

    like they don't have multiple screens

    and they are trying to navigate using

    a platform while also like figure out

    how to use like scratch junior while

    also being in zoom like

    have you seen any tips or tricks

    regardless of whatever subject area

    that might be useful for listeners and

    it's tips or tricks for any grade but

    especially for k to two is if you're

    going to be

    teaching a lesson or doing anything it's

    like

    continually interrupt it with things the

    kids are doing

    like put a poll up you know have them

    volunteer to answer

    in fact we did your lesson on

    fidget spinners on scratch jr and one of

    the things we did was we talked about it

    in the middle actually had them hit the

    home button and go to scratch

    junior and tell me how many times it

    took to rotate

    the scratch cat around for example and

    so they went and experimented in scratch

    junior and then came back and typed an

    answer into the chat on how many times

    they thought it took

    until he made one whole revolution

    around so it's

    interrupting and letting them actually

    go off camera and go do something else

    and then come back

    they can still hear you and i think it's

    being

    comfortable with accepting that even

    though you can't see them

    you have to assume they're actually

    doing what you told them to do if you've

    made it engaging enough so it's now

    something they have to discover

    you know they had fun going over there

    and making it spin around and coming

    back and telling me how many times

    you know and then give them another

    little spoon fed thing that they go and

    try because i can't

    like in a real classroom be showing it

    on the board and having them trying at

    the same time

    i found i have to spoon feed it into

    smaller chunks now

    that they can then go try you know it's

    not like you have it all there

    long term my thought is i'm gonna have

    to do more on paper that i send home

    that they could actually look at if it's

    longer code they have to figure out or

    do something with

    because they can't see two screens at

    the same time if they're on ipads for

    example

    and you can split screen on ipads and i

    could teach especially my second graders

    how to do that

    but the problem is scratch junior is a

    full screen app

    so it doesn't really split screen zoom

    ends up

    sitting on top and hiding part of what

    you're trying to do like it hides the

    background or it hides the characters

    it's a lot more awkward for them to try

    and

    use it i do know cs teachers that are

    doing that with their kids with scratch

    jr

    they're having them put the zoom on top

    and they're you know trying to demo

    but it's a pretty small little screen

    and i don't know that there is one right

    answer and i think it depends

    on the kids you know

    one of the things i really miss with

    something like a scratch junior is

    the sharing aspect right i mean if i'm

    in a classroom with all the kids

    we do a gallery walk and we try one

    another's projects and

    they show them off or they come to the

    front and they present them or something

    harder to do now because scratch junior

    isn't easy to share out of

    right i mean it'd be awesome if you

    could just create

    a video of your project that saved the

    camera roll you know then

    we could share all those but now it's

    teaching your kids to share their screen

    and zoom on an ipad and demo their

    projects and we're working on getting

    them all to be able to do that

    my kids aren't there yet but we're

    working on getting to there

    so because to me that sharing aspect

    is something that i think is so valuable

    it keeps the kids so engaged and in fact

    even with the fidget spinner a lot of

    them they posted in seesaw

    a screenshot of their code so i could

    see they got the code

    and could see what their fidget spinner

    looked like but a lot of them lamented

    oh i wish

    you could see it running yeah right

    so because they don't know how to record

    their screen yet or they don't know how

    to share

    so but we will get them there and that's

    got to be the goal of it

    is to get them to that point where they

    can do that

    but it takes a lot more of prep time

    from the teacher perspective like i

    can't

    just assume i can go in and teach them

    scratch junior i now have to teach them

    how to take a screenshot right you know

    how to take a video of

    your project how to you know share your

    screen

    and zoom all those things i have to

    teach before they can

    be able to share so and i think we have

    to

    give ourselves the grace and realize

    we're not going to cover as much

    because we have to cover all these tech

    skills they didn't have to know before

    right so it's just teaching that

    and the other thing is i would often

    pair kids up you know

    and have them pair program and that's

    just not as good you know

    working together can be really helpful i

    would often

    take ipads and say you're working two to

    an ipad right you know and you're

    working together

    and you teach those soft skills too and

    you can't be doing that even when we go

    back

    we're not going to be doing that because

    they're supposed to keep six feet apart

    so

    you know all of those are struggles of

    how do you do them right

    i think keeping the kids engaged is

    those bite-sized chunks though

    and then giving them something they

    physically do

    we're doing the hello ruby book right

    now the second one with my

    second graders and you know one of the

    things they do is go

    on a scavenger hunt around their house

    to find four computers in their house

    where four computers are hiding because

    we specifically say there are hundreds

    of computers in your house

    we'll find four of them they come back

    with all kinds of things

    and they have to tell me why they think

    they're computers they're not physically

    bringing those back they're taking

    pictures of them

    you know it gives them movement and

    things that they can do and they can

    come back and talk about them and show

    their pictures and

    so give them things you know to make

    them move give them little pieces

    of a project and have them do it one

    piece at a time

    don't give them everything at once you

    know i would give them bigger chunks

    now i have to give them smaller chunks

    yeah my class was

    very conversational kids were constantly

    talking to each other

    learning from each other getting up and

    sharing and asking questions and whatnot

    i'm curious have you experimented with

    any breakout rooms to try and simulate

    that kind of conversation

    i have somewhat we do it with our older

    grades all the time i have someone with

    second grade

    it's just hard to monitor them and i

    have found

    like with one of my second grade classes

    it worked well the kids would stay on

    task

    as i'd pop in and out of the rooms in

    another one

    they weren't staying on task you know

    you know with the older kids you can

    give them

    something it can be easier to keep on

    task like that was my goal if i was

    going to teach

    in fourth grade for example when you

    scratch a lot i would definitely

    probably use breakout rooms

    as a pair programming thing where one

    the navigator was just watching the

    other kid program and giving tips and

    you know whatever probably have to

    create paired accounts they could use so

    they could switch off who was

    logged in and coding but there's a way i

    think you could do that with the older

    kids

    harder to do with scratch junior and the

    younger ones

    because they can't get in the code from

    the other kid you know they're not

    local so it's not like you can airdrop

    it from one to the other

    and things like that because i used to

    use that sometimes in classes too where

    they'd write a progressive story and

    they'd airdrop it to one another and

    then write the next part

    but you can't do that if you're not

    physically in the same space so

    though that when we go back might be a

    possibility again

    because they will physically be on the

    same wi-fi and be able to do that

    yeah and just in case nobody knows what

    breakout rooms

    are so picture a large a

    full classroom all in one video

    conferencing session and a breakout room

    would be

    like dividing your class up into small

    groups into smaller

    video conferencing sessions so if you

    have 20 kids cool

    you can make 10 smaller groups that have

    two kids each and they're able to just

    converse with just the two of them so

    you don't have 20 people talking all at

    once

    i'm curious so we've talked a little bit

    about like experience design in cs

    education

    if you had a new to cs educator so

    somebody who's

    maybe been teaching for a while but is

    now trying to incorporate computer

    science into the classroom

    what advice would you give them for

    designing cs

    education experiences first thing i say

    is don't be afraid

    it's okay if you don't know everything

    and in fact if you're in elementary

    you don't have to know everything right

    you don't have to have a cs degree you

    don't have to know how to program java

    okay you'll find that a lot of the

    concepts tie in with things you're

    learning

    things like sequencing patterns you know

    all those things

    tie in with things that they're kind of

    already doing in the classroom so you

    can find those ties

    but the biggest thing i always tell

    everybody

    is to kind of under teach right don't

    tell the kids how to do everything we

    tend to think

    as teachers that we're the font of all

    knowledge right

    and don't be even if you are don't be

    teach them just what they need to know

    to get started and then let them

    discover something and tell you

    or tell their classmates okay one it

    sticks better

    two they're more engaged and then you

    can use that knowledge that they've

    acquired along with the little bit you

    gave them

    to kind of tie in that cs concept right

    but they've discovered they've used some

    inquiry

    and discovered things for themselves

    that keeps the kids more engaged

    and the other thing i always tell

    teachers is it's

    okay to say i don't know let's figure it

    out together

    and in fact i tell people even if you do

    know

    say that right because don't give the

    kids the answer

    teach them ways to discover the answer

    right

    and i think that's the biggest way to

    make it engaging help

    them do the discovery help them figure

    it out

    don't give it to them yeah you're gonna

    teach little concepts right you're gonna

    teach

    okay here's what a loop is now you'll go

    have them play with loops

    and have them show you what they

    discovered about loops

    if all you do is give them the code and

    say type this in

    it's not going to be engaging for them

    and it's not going to stick

    either they're not going to remember it

    so yeah that really resonates

    with my approach in the classroom and

    what we encourage

    i will say that anybody who's trying

    this it can take a while

    guiding through questions like i had

    that i was in

    and i would literally spend an entire

    guiding them through thinking to dive

    deeper into finally getting to the

    answer that i could have showed them in

    two minutes

    but because we went through this process

    like they had such a richer

    understanding

    of different potential directions to go

    into and just a deeper understanding of

    what they're trying to solve so

    it's definitely worth it just know it

    can take a while getting to the answer

    so you just gotta be patient

    right and i think that's the thing too

    is having the patience to

    wait for the students to figure it out

    it's that whole wait time thing

    amplified right because now they've got

    a problem

    and you do know how to fix it a lot of

    the time it's so tempting to jump in

    but it's going to stick so much better

    even if it takes you

    an entire class period to get them there

    and they're learning strategies that the

    next time they get stuck

    hopefully they can start applying

    themselves without you having to be

    there

    you know have bugs in their programs

    they're going to have to figure this out

    all the time ongoing you're going to

    constantly be jumping in and giving them

    the solutions if you don't give them the

    strategies

    of how to figure it out what about with

    integrating so

    let's say somebody has a background in x

    subject area

    they are not familiar with computer

    science but they want to integrate it

    with x subject area what advice would

    you give for an educator like that

    first i'd say see if you can find

    somebody that

    kind of knows where that might fit well

    and talk to them just pick their brain

    right

    you might want to say hey i really would

    like to do some of that where would be a

    good place to find that

    if there's nobody in your local district

    or your local school

    go online you know find people and just

    pick their brains a bit

    because knowing where to put it can be

    really helpful

    then also realize it will take some time

    for the kids to learn the tool you want

    them to use

    right i find it amusing almost

    i'll talk to teachers and they'll say oh

    i taught my kids how to use flipgrid and

    it took a couple days but now they're

    good

    and i taught them how to use this and it

    took a couple days

    and then i'll say well why do you do

    some cs and they're like but it's going

    to take too long to teach them

    it's like any other tool you're teaching

    them how to use it

    and yes it will take some time but now

    you've given them another tool to use in

    their tool kit to show their knowledge

    to you

    and you're teaching them some cs

    concepts along the way

    the other thing that i do with teachers

    like that is i point them to curriculum

    that already exists that can help

    them to teach those things like the

    buddha curriculum

    i mean you've got amazing lessons out

    there

    that they can just take and it talks

    about

    here's the cs concepts we're teaching

    here's how you approach it

    it even goes into here's where you might

    integrate it

    and the sfusd curriculum is also great

    that way

    and it shows you integration points it

    shows you how to

    approach teaching it it shows you the cs

    concepts you're teaching

    and it's freely available so go out and

    find it

    and use it use those lessons to teach

    your kids what they need to know

    let's say you want them to create a math

    game

    right so you think okay what are they

    going to need to know to create a math

    game

    well i can go out and find some lessons

    that teaches them how to make a sprite

    talk and how to make it ask a question

    and how to make it you know

    check if the answer is right so you know

    you can figure out and find some lessons

    you can teach them to do how to do that

    and then let them have at it and see

    what they can create

    right let them use their own sprites

    their own backgrounds their own

    you know theme for their game and what i

    have found because i've had kids do this

    where you teach them the little pieces

    i've gotten to where you know i'm going

    to teach you random numbers right

    so it'll randomly create your question

    for you

    and then i find they really like to

    practice their math facts because it's

    their game they created you know

    or they want to play their friends game

    you know

    and what they really are doing is

    practicing their math facts

    right so think of the benefit you'll get

    after you have

    taught them these things but realize it

    will take time to teach them

    you know i think people go in thinking

    i'll just jump right in that won't work

    you have to take the time to teach them

    first

    how would your answer change or be

    similar for cs

    educators who are trying to integrate

    with other subject areas so they have

    experience in cs

    but not experience in ex subject area

    well i would say partner up with the

    subject level teacher

    and i can find that can be fun actually

    easier virtually

    because they'll give you 10 minutes on a

    zoom whereas it could have been harder

    to

    get to them in person to tell you what

    they're doing in class

    so you talk to the teacher and you find

    out hey my kids are struggling with math

    fat they just don't have their audition

    math facts

    well then you can think in terms of okay

    oh they're doing addition math effects

    well i know how i could do that in a

    scratch program right so

    now i could help by having them write

    that

    or you can say go in and ask the science

    teacher what kinds of things are you

    doing

    in science right and even ask for what's

    the lesson look like look at it so you

    know what concepts they're learning in

    science

    and then have the kids create that

    science simulation

    right so it's partnering with the

    teacher who doesn't know the subject

    area

    whether that's in person at your school

    find a science teachers online you know

    some way of partnering with those

    teachers to find out where would be

    those hooks you

    where you could put cs in right and i

    find

    even just looking at the standards and

    saying what

    should the kids be learning go look at

    the ngss standards for science

    for the grade levels and see what are

    they supposed to be learning and you can

    think oh well that would be a great

    thing to do a simulation for

    in you know scratch or to create a

    little animation for in scratch junior

    you know like oh they learn the

    butterfly life cycle well let's you know

    recreate that in scratch jr right

    if you can find out even those high

    level things they're doing

    you can find lessons online that will

    teach you what that is and then

    figure out how to hook that in with cs

    is your advice

    for these educators is it the same as

    what you would have given before kovid

    as it is right now or has cova changed

    things in terms of the advice you'd give

    the advice is similar but i do find

    sometimes it's easier actually for me

    now to

    get time with teachers because they're

    willing to jump onto a 10-minute zoom

    whereas

    couldn't always track them down in

    person right and to try and set up a

    time was harder

    so sometimes it's easier for me to

    actually get with a classroom teachers

    now but i actually think it's more

    important now

    to integrate because the emphasis right

    now

    tends to be on those core subjects right

    that's

    so much of education right now is

    because

    there's limited time or because we don't

    have enough teachers and we've had to

    move those specialty teachers into the

    classroom

    so if we can get that integration piece

    going now

    i think it'll be valuable and it'll keep

    cs education

    going even in the time when there may

    not be a cs class right now because

    that's

    teacher is now the fourth grade teacher

    right so

    i think it's even more valuable right

    now than it was before

    yeah planting seeds for future larger

    projects and whatnot

    that resonates with me so i know because

    of our conversations because we've been

    on some of the same

    webinars and like the things that you've

    posted online that

    equity and inclusion is a big thing that

    you have

    strive for and continue to strive for do

    you have any recommendations

    for people who are listening how to

    improve equity and inclusion

    in cs and cs education that's a big hot

    topic for me right now because

    so many times we hear cs4 all right but

    it isn't cs for all cs is an after

    school thing and

    so a lot of kids can participate or it's

    a well we'll try this with our gifted

    kids

    thing or it's a okay everybody takes cs

    class

    but those special ed kids we're not

    going to put those in the cs classes

    so i think even if we're in a school

    that says

    we have a cs class for everybody we have

    to make sure it really does include

    everybody and we have to make sure that

    we as teachers

    are examining our biases and make sure

    that we

    are treating all the kids equally right

    because it's really

    easy to have those biases and not even

    realize

    that oh i'm asking the boys more

    questions than the girls

    or you know oh i'm ignoring the special

    ed kids even though they are sitting in

    the room

    right so you have to be really

    intentional

    as a teacher to make sure you're being

    equitable and inclusive

    in your classroom you know a lot of

    times elementary teachers and i've

    always said i'm really lucky my

    schools have always said everybody's

    getting it right so everybody's in the

    classes

    but i need to make sure as a teacher

    that i'm being inclusive

    in those classes because just because

    they're sitting in the room

    doesn't mean that they're getting the

    same education as the kids sitting next

    to them and i think we need to be aware

    of that

    but i think as a whole cs education is

    not equitable and inclusive especially

    in elementary

    and middle school there are some schools

    that teach it there are some that don't

    it's not a requirement even in those

    states that are starting to require it

    in high schools

    it's not in the elementary and middle

    schools or

    even in my case it was required and

    everybody took it

    but if the classroom teacher needed a

    kid for something because they didn't

    complete something they took them out

    you have to be on top of all that and

    make sure that everybody's there

    you also have to i think advocate at a

    district level and a state level if you

    can

    for requiring cs education

    for my state has standards for example

    but they're not required

    and there's no money so guess what

    there are a lot of schools that aren't

    doing it and it's the wealthy schools

    that are doing it

    and the poorer schools that are not and

    so

    we need to find some way of fixing that

    and i don't know other than saying let's

    integrate it to make sure everybody gets

    it

    and to me that's the best way to say

    we're going to integrate it

    into math or science or something

    because everybody takes those

    and we're going to try and integrate it

    in and there are more and more

    products available that do that like

    bootstrap algebra or data science

    for middle schools project guts for

    middle schools

    there's everyday computing which is

    math related for third and fourth grade

    math um right now

    it's with a specific math curriculum but

    they're working to expand it so it'll be

    more inclusive

    of all math curriculums so you know look

    around for those find

    ways to try and integrate it i think

    that'll be

    the best way to make sure that it is

    equitable and inclusive of everybody

    yeah one of the critiques that

    i have on cs education research is

    a lot of the questions and data that

    they're collecting

    are about people in the room

    not necessarily their perspectives on

    what they're learning and how they feel

    in it

    so it's like oh we have x percentage of

    this demographic

    and why percentage of this other

    demographic in this space okay that's

    nice that you're seeing an

    increase in marginalized groups but do

    they actually feel like they belong or

    are they just being forced to attend

    something

    that they don't find relevant so i wish

    cs education research in particular

    would ask those follow-up questions of

    well

    how do they actually feel in this and

    what do they see long-term for learning

    this particular subject not just forcing

    everybody to learn something but that's

    my own rant

    no but i agree it's like just having the

    bodies in the room is not the solution

    that's the start you've got to get the

    bodies in the room first

    but are we actually reaching all of them

    are all of them

    feeling like yes cs is for me

    or are they still feeling like i don't

    belong here you know if they're still

    feeling like i don't belong here then

    we're not doing our jobs

    so one of the things that you've really

    been promoting over the last couple of

    years

    is connecting other educators interested

    in computer science online whether it be

    through one social media platform or

    another i'm curious

    what sparked your interest in wanting to

    build these kind of online

    cs education communities well it was

    purely selfish to start

    i was the cs person in my school and

    i didn't know any other elementary

    middle school cs teachers

    and so i started looking around for how

    can i connect with people that are doing

    what i'm doing

    right how can i make sure i'm doing the

    right things how can i share some of the

    cool things that my kids are doing

    with people that'll understand it right

    i could share it with the

    other teachers at my school but they had

    no clue what i was talking about so

    you know so it was purely selfish i was

    trying to find communities

    and there weren't a whole lot of them

    out there so it was kind of like well

    what can we do to kind of build these

    communities what can we do to kind of

    get people to start talking to one

    another because i know there have to be

    people out there

    trying these same things i mean this was

    a while ago

    right this was in like 2012 probably

    that i first started this so

    it was you know eight years ago and

    there wasn't as much but there were

    people doing things

    i was looking for a way to connect to

    them so

    that was kind of why it got started so

    if you're to give like a sales pitch to

    somebody who's

    skeptical about joining one of these

    online environments

    especially with like recent movies or

    documentaries

    or docudramas whatever they're called

    about social media networks and things

    like that and how they're

    trying to take over your time and ruin

    your day essentially what would you do

    in terms of somebody who's skeptical

    about this and say hey

    this might be a good community for you

    because of blank yeah the skepticism

    is causing a dent in some of these

    communities but

    if you are someone who is looking for a

    support group that can help you with

    where do i go next i'm having this

    problem how do i solve it

    or you just want to show off kids work

    you want to learn something because like

    the csk

    chats we always have a topic and you

    know people learn a lot

    from them when they learn from one

    another you know if you've got a problem

    hey

    we had a discussion for example on the

    facebook group

    csda k to eight about trying to teach

    scratch

    junior in zoom you know online

    and some ideas came out in that you know

    people are trying to help one another

    you know especially right now we are in

    situations that all of us are learning

    so if we can

    kind of you know put the hive mind

    together basically and that's kind of

    what these communities do

    you know you may have a better idea of

    how to solve something than i do you may

    have tried something that actually

    really worked right

    and the rest of us would love to know

    about it so the idea

    is all of us together are better than

    each of us individually so

    let's build these communities now i

    agree

    that and i personally am having

    real problems with facebook myself these

    days

    because of things and for quite a while

    we are

    csta k-8 group is on facebook because

    that's where

    it was voted it should be a few years

    ago

    i don't know if that would be the same

    today

    the problem is where to go because they

    all have issues right

    csta is actually going to be opening up

    discussion groups themselves on their

    platform

    and so we will probably migrate there

    with that group

    maybe have both of them simultaneous for

    a while and hopefully that'll remove

    some of the

    issues that surround something like a

    facebook

    we'll probably stay on twitter just

    because there's still a lot of people

    there though we may experiment with

    doing

    more things in a platform like zoom

    where it's a

    more face-to-face discussion or maybe an

    asynchronous thing

    through flipgrid or something like that

    no platforms perfect

    but we want to try and meet people kind

    of where they are

    and there's still a community that seems

    to be on twitter for right now

    probably won't be that way long term

    things change and they evolve

    we all know that so but that doesn't

    mean don't join them

    they're valuable and they give you that

    connection

    you don't have to feel like you're a

    lone person in a classroom doing

    something that no one understands what

    you're doing

    there are people who understand and you

    can find them and that may mean you have

    to be on

    a social media platform you you don't

    always agree with

    go on and check that group and get off

    right yeah that's what i do

    every monday all right sign in check

    csta k8 group

    and then check the twitter chat all

    right now i'm signing off for the week

    i'm done

    but like i have found a lot of value in

    it like you mentioned the scratch jr

    post that you did and the responses when

    i was meeting with our pd facilitators

    like i actually brought that up and was

    like look here are some

    good tips that we can apply into our

    professional development so

    it's a good community and you mentioned

    evolving

    so we've seen the field of cs kind of

    explode

    in the past few years it's had it's like

    exponential growth

    of evolution and then the communities

    online that are being forged like csta

    reached like record numbers with a

    conference and then like the engagement

    that's going online where do you see

    the field heading in the next like

    decade or so i'm really horrible at

    predictions like this ask me about my

    prediction in the 70s about

    pcs i was bad i was wrong

    okay but honestly

    i'm hopeful that we'll see cs either as

    a core subject

    where it's taught right alongside

    everything else

    or will come up with really good

    integration methods

    where it's just thought of that you do

    math and cs together right in

    especially elementary grades i'm hopeful

    that we'll see that i'm hopeful we'll

    see

    more dates putting money where their

    mouth is

    as far as cs goes not just saying hey we

    have these standards now

    and we have money to support those for

    teachers to learn about and

    to teachers to know how to teach it and

    not just at the high school level

    so much stuff is still only at the high

    school level but it's too late by then

    if we wait until high school kids

    already kind of know what they think

    they're interested in

    and cs has a stigma still and they're

    not going to get into it then

    most of the time so i think we need to

    start in elementary

    and we can't lose them in middle school

    because that's another thing i see

    happening in education

    elementary schools are doing it because

    they've got a little more wiggle room

    about what they can do in their

    curriculum

    and then it's dropped in middle school

    and then

    high schools have it again but you lose

    those kids in middle school

    that's where those stereotypes kick in

    that's where girls think it's not

    good to be smart right you know kids get

    turned off to math

    and they don't pursue it in high school

    so i'm

    hopeful that districts will see it as

    something that needs a pathway

    k-12 and i think if csta

    continues to push it and to grow and to

    provide

    pd it's providing and to provide you

    know all of the resources that it

    provides

    that it can be helpful to teachers that

    want to do this in their schools

    and it can be helpful to how you can do

    it

    i am hopeful that we'll see it more and

    more

    states are passing standards and so

    i just want to see that next step of not

    only do we have standards

    we're now going to provide funding and a

    path for those districts to start using

    them and providing classes

    all the way through k to 12. how do you

    practice or iterate on your own

    abilities either in computer science or

    as an educator i've actually found covet

    interesting for that because there's so

    many things online now there's so many

    people offering pd online

    and so i'll jump into things that i find

    interesting

    even if they're not cs related you know

    i've done a lot of things on

    equity and inclusion over the summer you

    know just to

    make sure i'm on thinking correctly on

    that you know so that i'm trying to be

    equitable and inclusive in my classrooms

    and i find that that's been really

    helpful so i try and do

    online things force normal pd you know

    love the csta conference every year for

    cs stuff

    and i usually try over the summer and

    challenge myself to learn something new

    whether it's taking a more advanced

    python course or something like that

    online i didn't last summer because

    i'm in the tech department at my school

    and we were busy trying to figure out

    what the school year was going to look

    like so i was actually working most of

    the summer

    but i usually try and do that and i try

    and be

    reflective of myself like i

    will try and make notes after classes on

    what

    well what didn't go well what i might

    want to change the next time

    because if i don't write it down i

    forget and then

    i'll look at it and go well i want to do

    that this year but i know something

    didn't go well last year but i can't

    remember what it is

    even if i don't publicly do that i'll

    try and make notes on

    i don't have detailed detailed lesson

    plans but i usually have some kind of

    especially now i have some kind of

    slides or something that i do with that

    so i'll put a note into the slide oh

    this did not go over well redo this part

    you know

    so that i know when i'm looking back on

    it that

    i need to change it you know and it may

    not have worked because it was virtual

    right and it may be fine in person so

    because i find i'm having to tweak a lot

    of things as we

    try and move it to virtual it's like oh

    that really went well last year oh

    not gonna work this year because we're

    virtual so yeah that's a

    practice that i also did like i used to

    actually videotape my classes and then

    go back

    and then like do different techniques of

    who was i focusing on what kind of

    questions was i asking and just like

    writing all these things down and then

    just like really

    critically reflecting on myself and

    going what did not work well

    and why and what worked really well and

    why and sometimes those y's were out of

    my control

    like they had a cupcake party or

    whatever

    but it was still a good practice to go

    through and think through that so

    i am curious so how are you taking care

    of yourself because there's just

    so much going on and so many demands

    putting on

    all educators right now and then you're

    also going above and beyond and just

    continuing to dive deeper and learn new

    things

    but what do you do to try and prevent

    that burnout i'm

    really bad at that i will admit i tend

    to be a workaholic

    and it's a lot tougher now that

    work is at home right so i have to try

    and physically say

    i'm turning off the computer i am

    turning it off and

    leaving the room i will admit i'm not

    good at it i've been trying to be better

    the last month or so because i found

    myself

    just being on edge and stressed out and

    i know it's because i'm spending

    too much time working pre-covet i love

    to go to concerts right

    but of course i can't do that now i do

    attend some online but again that i'm

    still in front of a

    computer right and it's not the same

    experience as going to a live concert so

    i don't find it quite as satisfying and

    it isn't the escape from

    being on a device right i also really

    love photography

    and i love to go out on photo walks and

    just take pictures from unusual

    perspectives and stuff like that

    i have not done that much lately because

    it's been

    for a while because of the fires

    so i haven't been walking too much but

    the weather will turn

    at some point and then i'll go out and

    do more of that so then i also get

    you know where i'm moving because i find

    i don't move as much as i should too

    so and sometimes i'll just you know read

    some stupid book that has nothing to do

    with anything you know that's

    totally an escapist book and then it's

    not on a device

    it's an actual book and you know i'm not

    trying to learn anything from it

    so yeah i used to be non-fiction only

    like i

    was like well what's the point if i'm

    not learning something new and then

    i was like okay a lot of people keep

    saying they really value

    getting into fiction and so i tried it

    and i feel like it

    one it helps relax me like i do it

    before i fall asleep

    but two it also just like opens up new

    perspectives and ways of thinking and

    like just

    helps with creativity which is a heavy

    load on my job like i'm constantly

    creating new projects and lessons and

    things like that

    so i personally find a lot of value in

    that and then your comments about like

    just getting up and moving

    that also relates to why you saw me

    yesterday in the meeting while walking

    on a treadmill like

    i'm tired of sitting in meetings like

    for eight hours a day so i need to make

    sure i'm moving

    yeah i like that i am working on a

    desktop right now

    and i can't get it high enough to even

    stand so

    i'm trying to work out something where i

    can readjust it so

    i can move my big monitor up and be able

    to stand because

    just even being able to stand rather

    than sit is helpful i find

    you know so what do you wish there's

    more research on that could inform

    your own practices yeah good question i

    just don't think there's enough research

    on

    especially elementary k-8 cs as

    it is and so much of it is

    narrowly focused on like a certain thing

    i would like to have more research done

    on transfer of things because i think

    that is so hard right to get

    you hear so many people say oh if they

    learn the code they'll know how to think

    and it'll help them in all their other

    classes

    but in reality that's not true you can

    make it happen

    but how can we make it happen i would

    love to see research on how can we

    because it should transfer but it

    doesn't

    so i'd love to see why and how we can

    help make it transfer because i think

    there is value in that

    and i think it is possible and i have

    seen it you know anecdotally myself

    but i don't know what caused it to work

    right so i'd love to see more research

    on that

    yeah if any professors are listening i

    agree

    please research that more do you have

    any questions for myself for the field

    where do you see the field going in 10

    years

    with everything going on in covid what i

    would have answered to you

    in february is very different than what

    i would answer

    for you right now in terms of

    cs was just on this like

    straight path just going really fast

    like towards

    everybody's doing this we're getting all

    these standards etc but now

    it's well we don't really have time for

    all these other subject areas and so

    not just cs but i'm seeing anything that

    was not considered core

    is now on the chopping blocks in some

    districts or just not being taught at

    all

    so once this gets through

    i do see us picking back up some steam

    pun intended there in terms of being

    able to get back

    into the swing of things and

    continue to drive home the importance of

    this i just hope that

    as a field we don't just focus on

    cs4 jobs but also talk about cs

    for leisure or for personal and

    community health and wellness

    and those kind of applications so my

    hope is that the field kind of broadens

    to discuss the importance of cs in

    relation to

    that but that's just more of a hope than

    it is

    i think we're going in that direction i

    want to try and help steer us in that

    direction

    i would love that direction in part

    especially when you're talking

    elementary and even middle school

    it's like to talk cs for jobs to me is

    insane

    it should be cs for personal expression

    what do you want to do with cs

    right and if we're not approaching it

    that way again i think it's not as

    engaging for kids either

    if you're just talking about some future

    job they might get i mean

    i mean that's crazy so like i said our

    microbit projects for example

    there's some of my favorite things

    because it's kind of like what do you

    want to make with this

    right right we teach them many lessons

    on how to do things on it and then we

    say

    okay you know how to do all the stuff

    now go make something with it and it's

    purely what they want to make right we

    may frame it in terms of

    what do you want to make to solve this

    kind of problem or pick a problem to

    solve and make something which can make

    it even more engaging at times

    but i think that's the power that cs has

    and i think if we're not going that

    direction yeah

    it's kind of a fail to me if all we are

    doing is emphasizing jobs

    yeah and i co-wrote a critical paper on

    that subject area that i can put in the

    show notes for this but

    so the nonprofit that i work for has

    partnered with amazon future engineer

    and

    one of the first things that i asked

    them when we were in talks about this

    is like just based off of the name i

    hope you're not

    thinking that we're gonna try and like

    make kindergartners want to become

    a future engineer at amazon like that is

    not the point of what we do with our

    curriculum our pd etc

    i was so happy with their response being

    a very critical person on this thing

    that i was like okay i don't see any red

    flags like they were 100 on board like

    look we're not trying to get everyone to

    work for amazon like

    we're just trying to help out kids and

    we think elementary is a great place for

    them to do creative things with computer

    science

    and so i was like yeah this sounds great

    i'm on board with that but

    initially i was i was skeptical just

    because of the name of the organization

    right the name of the organization leads

    you to believe we're trying to build a

    little amazon engineer

    right no we're not

    [Laughter]

    so yeah i agree the jobs thing has

    always made me crazy

    it's like when i go into a session and i

    the first thing you see is

    why should we do cs because look at all

    these jobs we need to fill i'm like

    yeah okay i'm not interested yeah

    yep do you have any suggestions for me

    on

    how we could potentially improve this

    podcast in terms of better serving the

    field

    i've liked what i've listened to so far

    i really like your ones where you're

    delving into the research

    because i think a lot of teachers aren't

    reading the research

    because right the research isn't

    necessarily super practical

    for stuff i can use in my classroom

    tomorrow so i think

    that part's really important and i think

    can be very valuable to the field

    it gives teachers an insight into that

    and you do talk about

    practicalities of how you might apply

    that in your teaching so i think that's

    really important

    i don't know i can't think of anything

    specific

    i'm just wondering if maybe it would

    take at a different direction

    but i wonder if every once in a while

    some

    kind of student voice might be

    interesting

    to talk to students from the perspective

    of

    what helped them feel like cs was for

    them

    even if it's at a high school level

    student right because they might be a

    more

    interesting interview than a you know

    sixth grader but that could be

    interesting too

    you know i'm just thinking in terms of

    because

    me as a teacher knowing what's hitting

    home with the kids can be really helpful

    to know

    like i always enjoyed the student panel

    at

    the csta conference where you hear from

    the students of

    how they were influenced by their

    teachers so that could be an interesting

    thing to add yeah i like that i'll have

    to

    start reaching out see if we can find

    some where might people go to connect

    with you

    and the organizations that you work with

    if you go to visionsbyviki.com

    it has links to all my social media my

    visions by vicky on twitter are

    envisions by vicki on scratch

    and visions by vicki on let's see where

    else

    instagram so the csta

    k-8 facebook group is a great place to

    connect with me

    so i have cska chats on the first and

    third wednesdays

    of each month at 5 pm pacific 8 pm

    eastern you can also contact me through

    csteachers.org

    because i'm on the board there too and

    with that that concludes this week's

    episode of the csk8 podcast

    as always you can connect with vicki by

    clicking on the links in the show notes

    i include the links to her

    handles that she was just mentioning

    like twitter instagram scratch etc

    if you enjoyed this episode i hope you

    consider sharing this with another cs

    educator who might benefit from

    listening to it

    stay tuned next week for another

    unpacking scholarship episode and stay

    tuned two weeks from now for another

    interview

    i hope you're all having a wonderful

    week and are staying safe

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